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Hello everybody,
I am a ~3700 master league protoss player. I am having trouble lately with my multitasking (for example defending baneling bust @ the front while harrassing with void/phoenix. Stuff like that). I don't have the highest APM, but I have to say I try not to do useless clicks and generally don't APM spam nearly at all.
At the start I usually have around 30-40 since there's not much to do except some probe stacking on the close mineral patches and that's about it. When the game advances I usually hit 100-120 overall APM where my current APM doesn't drop under 150-200 past the 10 minute mark. So I think being able to click fast enough is not the issue here.
However often I struggle to keep an eye in multiple places and I am thinking it's because I am too relaxed at the start... Sometimes I do good with multitasking in 3 even 4 places sometimes 2 is too much for me. I got my own builds settled up and I learned not to make stupidest mistakes like not macroing enough while in fight/doing something else etc, but I feel what's stopping me from improving further is this problem with multitasking.
Do you know any techniques to make it easier and get used to multitasking every game (besides the early APM spam which I hate) that helps you?
Do you think I should sacrifice some micro during the fights to get better multitask management (like fighhting in 2 fights while expanding on 3rd base etc)? As a former WC3 player I am used to pushing the micro in the battles to the maximum as it was the most important thing in that game, however in SC2 it is as important as multitasking...
As an example I can give a game I played yesterday against a zerg player on metalopolis cross spots. I opened with really fast stargate which he couldnt scout due to the spawn spots and the 1 void ray + phoenix follow up cought him off guard allowing me to kill 3 queens and tons of overlords, which would pretty much secure me the game, except that I wasn't focused enough and let about 30 lings to breach my front (I was trying to expand also) and kill my economy...
In situations like this I know my strategy should have worked if executed correctly @ both action scenes (zerg base + my natural), but ended with miserably fail and ultimately a loss.
So... any help/suggestions will be appreciated as I'm sure there are many other players out there struggling with the same problem (not only protoss players obviousle).
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I think you just need to continue playing alot it over the time you will improve your multitasking. I personally dont know of some miracle way that will speed this process up ~~
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qxc's trainer from beta helped me a lot in beta. The one where there are 4 areas on the map
where you're doing different stuff.
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yea I remember some multitasking trainer from the beta too, used it a lot on the break between phase 1 and 2. Is there any more new version of some thing like this? My multitasking is terrible, I would love to train it too.
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My multitasking has gradually gotten better just through the sheer number of games I've played. I think it's one of those skills you have to be patient with for it to grow well.
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Keep trying to do difficult things, as terran I always push myself to do as much at once as possible. If you're just sitting and macroing, you're not getting any better. Try to find other things to do with your time, whether its actively scouting, moving your army around aggressively, breaking down rocks, dropping etc.
By finding more things to do, you are actively training your mind to deal with more than one thing, and you'll be more ready for when you need to focus on two things, like those you stated.
At the moment I like to play a very aggressive style, and rely on this paired with multi-tasked macro to overwhelm my opponents. If I keep up aggression and break even with units lost, then I will win, because my macro is better while I'm annoying them.
At least, thats what I aim for ;D, I still make a lot of mistakes of course  .
So, to summarise, give yourself more things to do more often, and you will get better at multi-tasking faster.
My APM at the beginning is the same as yours 30-40, however whenever I play in tournaments, I mouse-unit-select spam at the beginning, to make sure my hands are at the peak of being warmed up. My game average is usually around 120-130, peaking during micro at 350-450.
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Watch your replays and take note of your "idle" time. Idle time is basically how long you keep your screen on something pointless.
For a newbie example, if you tell your army to move to the other side of the map, is there ANY reason to watch that army move the entire time across the map? No, you only need to cycle to it every once in awhile (every few seconds if your clicks are fast enough) or watch the minimap.
This happens the most during battles. Only in rare situations (such as blink stalker micro) do you need extreme attentiveness to micro. You will be surprised (if this is your problem, of course) at how often you will idle in battles, and where your focus could instead be going.
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This is a pretty good multitasking trainer. Also the more games you play the better your multitasking will get.
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I would suggest using Multitasktrainer 0.95 by Eeck (custom map) on Hard. If you manage to clear that you certainly won't have any trouble focusing in 4 different places at once
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On March 14 2011 22:07 SovSov wrote:
Watch your replays and take note of your "idle" time. Idle time is basically how long you keep your screen on something pointless.
For a newbie example, if you tell your army to move to the other side of the map, is there ANY reason to watch that army move the entire time across the map? No, you only need to cycle to it every once in awhile (every few seconds if your clicks are fast enough) or watch the minimap.
This happens the most during battles. Only in rare situations (such as blink stalker micro) do you need extreme attentiveness to micro. You will be surprised (if this is your problem, of course) at how often you will idle in battles, and where your focus could instead be going.
I don't idle ever, except @ start when theres nothing else to look at (first ~1 min). Thing is I am focused on microing really hard while keeping to macro and when there is 2nd fight with protoss just a-moving is not enough. Most of the time 1 force field is vital and this is where my multitask slips...
Thanks for the replies btw, I will try that trainer
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I do it by focusing on micro while using a sound track that beeps every 11s (15 game seconds) which tells me you probably should macro around this time, and after a while. Macro become instinctive and micro becomes the focus.
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Multitasking in reality does not exist. Our conscious brain is capable of executing ONE and only ONE action at a time. This is why you cant have a real conversation with someone while doing something that also requires your attention. Fortunately, you can program your inconscious mind to perform robot task, like breathing, scratching your head, or driving. You can do numbers of those task simultaneously with a "conscious task", but you cannot perform two "conscious task" at the same time.
Applied to Starcraft 2, when a pro is macroing, he is doing something he has done 5 billions times, something he can do without thinking, something he performs with his "robotic" part of his brain. He can then perform another task that does require his conscious attention. However, a noob who has never programmed his brain to macro HAS to think about it. So he cannot do anything at the same time without screwing one or the other completely.
In short, perform tasks repetitively until you programmed your brain to do it unconsciously to "multitask" better. Train.
Note that I am simplyfying for the sake of my lazyness and bad english.
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definetely having a bw background helps a lot. with constanty small attacks going on, having to grab every single probe manually at each expansion, clicking on each gateway to make units, and not being able to 1a ur entire army at once helped to signficantly improve my mutlitasking capabilites. the arguement is that in sc2, a lot of this "annoying" tasks were removed in order to allow more focus and attention to strategic decisions and microing. At this point, when playing any game, its best to have a list of priorites in your mind. You should never be idling at any point in the game. You need to cycle your attention between your army and your macro. I made a post a few months ago outling a simple list i use myself as a sort of mental checklist that i process throughout the whole game.
found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=159901
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On March 14 2011 22:30 Natt wrote:
Multitasking in reality does not exist. Our conscious brain is capable of executing ONE and only ONE action at a time. This is why you cant have a real conversation with someone while doing something that also requires your attention.
not to derail the thread, but there are researches that prove otherwise AS WELL as those that state that multitasking is not possible. do not state it as it's been 100% scientifically proven plz.
ie:this science artice state that human is in fact capable of pursuing TWO tasks at once effectively
that being said, i used multitasking trainer, the custom map someone already linked, and it helped me with my game. mind i was silver scrub back then, so i don't know how effective training on this map will be when you're already high masters.
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Train. Alot. Force yourself to get better, don't relax during your games.
Better do 5 high quality training games than 20 relaxed games which don't help your skill level at all. Also train yourself into some behaviours, like looking at the minimap.
That's my point of view, but I'm lazy and I play SC2 for fun, so I don't really get better. But to get better at a certain point you have to take it serious and and work specifically on your flaws. Multitasking is a big thing which consists of different abilities, for example watching the minimap, timings, reflexes, general awareness of what is going on. Most of them are hard to practice specifically, so you have to do that through your games. But try to identify what you are lacking. Is it not watching at the minimap and only seeing the zerglings when they are already in your base? Is it just bad reflexes? Is it just bad timing by losing units because you underestimated their travel speed or something like that?
Of course everything can get better for every player all the time, because there is no skill ceiling, but usually it should be possible to identify your flaws if you look objectively at your games
There are many many people who play a lot of starcraft, but usually it is not talent or destiny which divides the top 0.1% and the top 1%, it is just their attitude and how good they are at forcing themselves to improve.
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A gem of wisdom I got from Liquid`Tyler's stream 5-6 weeks ago is that the best way to improve your multi-tasking is to always plan ahead. Know what you're going to be building in 30 seconds rather than thinking about what you are going to be building right now. That way, when shit hits the fan and you either attack or are being attacked, you dont have to think about WHAT you're going to do, you just do it and get back to the focal points. Protoss is so reliant on forcefields that, particularly in defensive situations, its far more difficult to address multiple threats simultaneously than it is for the other two races. There are so many micro mistakes that can outright lose you the game. As such, you're slightly more burdened to "not fuck up" your micro at these key moments. This makes planning ahead even more important for you... though it is important for all races obviously.
After hearing this simple tip, I put more emphasis on planning ahead and it has helped me a ton.
Another thing that helps is putting yourself mentally above any sense of urgency. When you're responding to multiple things at once, its actually better for you to mentally slow down and make the correct decision rather than a hasty wrong decision. Realistically and ideally, your APM SHOULD decrease slightly when you're responding because most of the things that require high constant APM should feel like second nature. Its the unfamiliar things that you need to slow down and make a decision about.
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A really nice thing that I try to do is practice my build alone in singleplayer and try to keep my scouting probe/drone/SCV moving without ever queuing up actions.
If you can perfect a build while doing that I think you will have no problem focusing your attention somewhere other than your build (or the current task at hand).
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Don't try to focus on multitasking more, it doesn't actually help to build habits. Instead, focus on adding more dimensions to your play one at a time. For example, go about 10-15 games focusing on spreading your units optimally as much as possible, while still maintaining your usual actions. If your having trouble with harass, try to look for any harassment as much as possible (even when you know its not coming) over a lot of games. This builds productive habits instead of mostly unfocused multitasking that won't be sustained over time. This is kind of the theory behind sports psychology, that eventually the things you do in competition falls to the automated portion of the brain instead of the cognitive decision making portion (aka being in the zone, zen, all that good stuff that athletes and progamers talk about)
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On March 14 2011 21:20 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I think you just need to continue playing alot it over the time you will improve your multitasking. I personally dont know of some miracle way that will speed this process up ~~
Gotta disagree with you that practice is the best answer. Check out day9's mechanics video if you haven't. If you have 120 apm without spam you should be fast enough for these kinds of things. For the things like the baneling busts check the minimap whenever you can manage and when you see the red dot go to the hotkey and forcefield.
If you keep playing you will only the wrong way 'better'. With enough games you can be so fast that it makes up for the inefficiency, but in the long run it hurts you tremendously. As for the micro question you should be able to determine when its worth it by watching a replay. I still see shit on peoples streams where they are like microing 1 marauder against 1 zealot while their money gets high or get counterattacked. Choose the best option for your speed and don't worry about the rest.
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I would say to find a build does many things at once, even if it's vs AI as an off race. My build I'm training on now at the 11 minute mark involves: Remembering to saturate a fourth refinery, not getting blocked (duh), doing a positional tank drop while tank pushing, hellion harassment, making an additional factory, and cloaked banshee harass, calling down mules, and the rest of standard play. Regardless of how effective it may or may not be I can definitely feel my abilities increase with every game, and watching the replays it looks like the game is being played how it should be played... with multiple things going on at once.
TL;DR: make a very complex build that involves pronged attacks, harassment, macro and base management constantly happening at the same time.
PS: I also spam at tournaments, I find it oddly calming.
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On March 14 2011 21:48 MasterJack wrote:
qxc's trainer from beta helped me a lot in beta. The one where there are 4 areas on the map
where you're doing different stuff.
this is the first thing that came to mind. any multi task trainer really. another thing is how well do you use hotkeys? personally i'm terrible with them, but i know for a fact if i can start using them more i can move around quicker. also i still don't know a lot of the hotkeys like i guess ground attack is G. wtf i always thought it was W, but then i got my warp gates lol. and A was armor so i kept gettin armor instead of attack. haha lastly it just takes practice. focus on your weaker side (micro/macro) and if you lose a few battles because your units were out of position then so be it. eventually it will all come together :D
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As it has been stated before you won't really be able to micro 2 battles at once, though you should be able to macro without thinking about it. To be successful when fighting on multiple fronts simultaneously you need to know when a fight will be won regardless of whether you micro it or not. You can then somewhat ignore that fight and focus on the other that might need your micro. This of course just goes back to playing more games as that is really the only way you will figure it out.
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The only thing that holds true of all things to be learned in Starcraft:
Practice makes perfect!
Day9 said on one of his old dailies that there was a point where he wanted to increase his APM to 300. For a week straight, all he did was focus on keeping his APM up at 300. He admits that during this period, his play deteriorated and he lost more than usual, however after that week or so he was able to get used to that new APM he was capable of and turn it into useful actions.
The same logic can be applied to your multitasking situation. Early in the game, force yourself to multi-task. I've been having success lately using this kind of system (use your own hotkeys or w/e, just listing mine):
1 - Scout Probe
2 - In-base Probe (builder)
3 - 3xProbe for gas
4 - Nexus
5 - Gateway
To force myself to multitask, I'll go:
11 (look around, see if his scout is around) > click into fog of war on minimap where probe is going > click there
44 (check building probe, nexus energy)
55 (check building unit or building completion)
<check things [money, supply etc]>
The reason I do it like this is because it forces me to bounce my screen around. Later in the game the tasks change, but I am still forcing myself to do them all in quick succession:
11 (scouting Stalking) > left click minimap where hes going > right click/a-move there
22 (army at ramp or harass unit) > arrange them/fly to position/safety
44 (check nex energy) > use CB > build probe
33 (usually my obs or other scouting unit) > check around
5 (was gates, now is robo or star) > check for CB icon, unit completion
I think 2 examples should cover what I'm getting at.
One of the big things I realized, through watching streams and practice of my own, is that you need to allocate your multitask properly. That sounds like a mouthful so I'll try to explain-
Your army is engaging his. In a split second, you see what needs to be done: forcefield to split his army, focus his units with your stalkers, get your Zealots in the right spot, kite your Col back from whatever etc. All of these are pivotal to you winning the battle and possibly the game, but if you do them all right now, your minerals are gonna spike up and you might supply block.
Now is when you prioritize:
11 (Zealot/Sentry group) > cast FF
44 (nexus) > box workers, snap down pylon
22 (Stalker group) > focus vikings
55 (robo) > 4 (click C then on Robo)
33 (Col group) pull Col back towards Stalkers to safety
44 > send worker to new base
11 (micro)
etc etc
You're much higher rated than me, so it probably won't set you back as much, but forcing yourself to do all those things might set you back a bit in the micro. Eventually though, you will be so used to this level of multitasking that it was be a natural feeling to bounce around constantly at a dizzying pace and stay on top of everything. As you become more comfortable, you'll find yourself looking for more to do, so you can put those actions to good use.
Hope this helps
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Thanks for the replies, but a few of you don't get the point. So let me clarify a little. My macro usually don't slip, even in heat of the fight I always have in mind to keep making probes and pylons and all the good jazz. What I am talking is more when there are two or three attacks at different locations (with me defending or attacking regardless) and sometimes my multitasking just slips while other times I have no issues of keeping an eye on all fronts without making too big mistakes. It's like in some of the games my hands fail to switch to higher gear while @ other I feel like Shiva and have no problem whatsoever to be "everywhere".
So my question was more about how to be Shiva in every game, to be able to switch gears easily. I guess keeping an eye and keeping myself occupied even if its checking unrevealed places of the map @ the start (somewhat spam) will scale later when there are actually many places to look at.
Also I recognize as a problem not looking enough at the minimap so that's definitely something to work on. The real issue however remains that I just don't do useless stuff if I think it is useless, while may be I shouldn't think whether it is useless at all and just do stuff as long as I keep myself busy and on alert so to speak.
The more I think about this, the more I start to think I should focus on spamming more at the start just to be on higher gear already later on... I was hoping for some other way to do this later on though
EDIT: Pretty much what Yarko said before this ninjaedit
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Being a 3700 master league toss you are definitely better than I am, but just play more. Honestly the best way to get better at certain aspects of the game is to play the game, there's no substitute for it.
Mind you, practice partners will help a lot, perhaps get a Terran to continually drop you in the mid/late game on different fronts, that will definitely help out your multitasking.
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beeing in amster means u can do the basic stuff so seperate training wont be that effective jsut make a build thats needs alot of multitasking and which is playable on a almost all maps/ matchups and jsut play it over and over again.
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On March 15 2011 04:04 eXwOn wrote:
TL;DR: make a very complex build that involves pronged attacks, harassment, macro and base management Constantly happening at the same time.
Better do 5 high quality training games than 20 relaxed games which don't help your skill level at all. Also train yourself into some behaviours, like looking at the minimap.
Combine these two and you should have what you're looking for. If you truly want to improve you need to dedicate your practice time to quality games where you don';t care about winning but specifically focus on one aspect. Practice DOES NOT make perfect. Practicing PERFECTLY makes perfect.
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I think the key is to understand that its been proven that there is no such thing as multitasking. People switch their attention between two things, sometimes very quickly, but you aren't actually paying attention to both at the same time. This is especially true in starcraft 2. Even if you could multitask its made impossible by the structure of the game. You cant have your screen viewing two areas of the map at once, and you can't command units on both sides of the map at the same time.
So I think you should approach it as training yourself to switch attention quickly. Don't try to do both things at once. You probably already do this, but hotkey a control group on both sides of the map (maybe 1 for your main army and 2 for your phoenix and void rays) and get in the habit of moving back and forth between them by hitting 11 and 22 very frequently. I try to make a move with my main army then switch back to my harass and execute a command to them because by the time you order your harass to do something it will be about time for you to command your main force again.
So basically don't try to do two things at once, try to switch between commanding different control groups, making units etc, but do so only when you have an opportunity. Obviously doing too many things at once when your attention is needed in a fight thats going to decide the game can be costly. I think it comes down to game sense (you need to be able to subconsciously prioritize the game so you know where attention is needed) memory (you need to be aware of all of the things that you need to do, like zerg need to remember to spread creep, build units, and spit larva) and speed (your ability to command your units very quickly allowing you to change your attention very rapidly.)
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This is the game I was referring to:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150035-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Note that after ~4:20 when my scout died I didnt bother much looking around because I knew I couldnt see much and was not worth it, so my APM drops (switching to lower gear). Then when the void ray pops out and I go in his main I try to multitask and fail. Even after the first lings slipped in I knew I should be fine but again the multitasking fails and while I do good job @ his base I lose my economy while I should not. In theory I knew I should be able to deny the lings from entering my base and even save the expansion, but I fail in both...
PS Excuse the flame @ the end :blush:
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I play zerg and I can definitely understand being on 2-3 fronts all the time when I'm using mutalisks. One of the things that helps me pay attention and keep track of my units better is trusting the positions I'm putting myself in.
For example, in ZvT what I mean by this is when I harass with a large group of mutas I always consider these things:
1) Where is his army?
2) Are there turrets where I'm poking?
3) Does he have thors?
4) Does he have stim and/or medivacs? Aka - is it greatly beneficial for me to make him stim?
5) How much map control do I have? Towers/OL spread Aka - do i NEED to wary of the possibility of helions, banshees, drops?
6) Where am I keeping my 2nd army - lings blings?
7) If I send my mutas to a certain place, is there a possibility of losing them if I look away for 1 second?
I guess the point I'm making is - Do I have enough evidence to trust the position I'm putting my units in? If the answer is NO, I watch them 100%. If the answer is YES, I jump around and come back very quickly. Prioritize your units/survival when jumping around.
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---Install Brood war and play zerg vs 2 or 3 protoss computer on a korean map. Its ok to die, as it will probably happen, but just try to survive the early rush with pure micro and keeping your money low.
---Again, play Bw, against a computer and try to reach 200 units with either zerg or terran in under 10 or 12 minutes.
---Play against a low lvled computer in SC2 and never go under 200 minerals. Its harder than you think, because since you wont lose too many units, you need to be constantly macroing.
---Constantly switch inbetween groups, buildings, and build a habit
---Ask a friend to play Terran a a gsl map, and ask him to do multiple drops.
In Bw, i like to keep an apm of 300 with terrans, and 350-400with zergs. Build your mental endurance. Punish yourself if you missed a pylon,supply,overlord. Constantly ask yourself key question in your mind such as`What is happening in his base, is he having an hidden expo, i need map control, i need to see the map more than this ect.
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EPT
