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On March 19 2011 18:37 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars. GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +
I think MC's point was that the thing being nerfed isn't even needed for Protoss to roll face. Thus, if you don't use the thing being nerfed to win games convincingly, the nerf is completely irrelevant, and Protoss is still strong.
+ Show Spoiler +I think his point was that he's so fucking awesome, he doesn't even NEED to use units considered imba
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On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars.
You answered your own question in your post. 
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On March 19 2011 18:34 BlackMagister wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +MC said he wanted to show Protoss was still strong even though it's being nerfed with the next patch, but MC didn't really use anything that's being nerfed if the OP is correct. All the talk about the Khaydarin Amulet I've heard seems to indicate it may have been overpowered, but it was underused anyways in favor of Collosus. So I don't really get MC's comments as he never used high templars.
I think he was talking about the vortex nerf...no more toilet 
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(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
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On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
Really? Templars will receive a major nerf, and ghosts a minor one. And you are worried that this will make HTs too powerfull? Is that what you are saying?
Really?
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On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
Oh no it looks like there's a chance a 200 energy HT might be able to storm in an engagement. Clearly something is wrong with this.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
It would require some major tweaking but the warp gate is definitely a terrible mechanic. Protoss would be a much better (as in gameplay-wise) race without it.
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If they removed warpgate then they could remove the mega-retarded high-ground-vision advantage and go back to the BW 50% hit advantage.
Jus' sayin.
(Don't really agree with removing them overall btw...)
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For the people on the PTR, have you seen a decline in templar play? Are protoss players being more colossus centric (as expected) or is it just really hard to gauge?
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On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote:
(3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!!
How high are you?
User was warned for this post
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On March 20 2011 01:48 junemermaid wrote:
For the people on the PTR, have you seen a decline in templar play? Are protoss players being more colossus centric (as expected) or is it just really hard to gauge?
Well obviously it is going to be Colossus Centric. The double forge Templar build relied heavily on warp-in Templar, let alone Templars that have to wait 40seconds to Storm, even then sometimes you were living on the edge of things. This might kill DT opening builds too since those builds relied switching to Templar tech after doing some harass.
They will get used in someway, but there will be a lot less of them. With warp-in templar builds you survived off Zealot/Templar, it wasn't uncommon to warp-in a good 30+ Templars in one game, but you were more careless with them however, you will never see that again though.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
What do you think people are gonna vote after watching the gsl final, really?
Terrible poll
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On March 12 2011 22:41 Grummler wrote:
So, we get an update including an emp nerf and Protosses are QQing about the ht nerf we already knew about.
Its a ghost nerf and therefore a small ht buff afterall. Its shocking how a Protoss players manages to QQ about a ghost nerf, while most terrans are like "well, emp WAS to strong, good they start nerfing it".
the emp can still do 1000 damage instantly and it "only" draws 100 energy.. you need to save up energy a lot to have at least 1 forcefield left when you get emped. compared to the storm nerf this is a very small change.
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I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think warpgates should have a greater cooldown the farther the unit is warped from the warpgate
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Funny thing about protoss is, that we haven't really gotten any significant buffs since SC2 was released. Except hallucinate and phoenix things, it has been one nerf after another (unless I remember wrong).
What changed? Maps.
Somehow, some way, the bigger map sizes apparently favors protoss. That, or protoss players are just ahead in the current metagame. This is one of the reasons why I personally was not in favor of community-made maps. They change game balance in ways people can't predict. IF the new maps are protoss favoured and it's not the metagame thing.
Things like warpgates and forcefields haven't really changed since release. Scratch that, warp gates have been nerfed at least once. Now they are taking the templar amulets away. And people want to remove warp gates and forcefields?
How about you take the warpgates, forcefields, templars, colossus, void rays, dark templars and all other imbalanced stuff from protoss and maybe then game will finally be balanced when we can no longer abuse you.
Well, since protoss didn't recieve any significant buffs since release (I mean, phoenix and hallucinate buffs haven't exacly been game breakers), all I can deduce is that either maps broke balance or protoss players finally learned to play.
The last option seems very ironic considering that the general opinion has been that protoss is "the easiest race to learn/play".
Either way, you guys are getting the protoss nerfs you seem to want, the amulet is being removed. How about we all just sit back and see how things go before suggesting new nerfs to things like warp gates or forcefields.
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On March 20 2011 02:03 Moki.tv wrote:
I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think warpgates should have a greater cooldown the farther the unit is warped from the warpgate
hard to implement and bad lategame.
said it often will say it agai:
normal warpgate research now only allows pylon warpins in X radius around a nexus(~sensor tower range). warp prisms work normal.
a later additional warpgate tech allows full map pylon warpins like we have now.
weakens cheesy/allin builds evryone hates to see and play against. doesnt affect warpgates production and defensive power at all.rushdistance now matters for P too making mapdesign way easier and removing a lot of randomness in the game.
imho the perfect solution. rushdistance SHOULD matter for P like evryone else. all the rush builds are still possible on close positions just way weaker on far away positions like it should be. nothing changes for the P when defending/just macroing.
/edit@greentellon
infact P players did learn how to play very late. when you look at the early days of gsl like evry P is trying to do a random one base allin(and often very unrefined ones). that was the P playstyle back then.
now P players not only have way more refined one base plays,they also finally know how to expand safely in all matchups and finally recognized their mid/lategame power.
the P play evolved worlds in the last ~3-4 months and is finally exploring more and more of their full strength.
also ofc the big maps take out quite some of the positional randomness and overall are great for a P . XvP on a big map the P has all options since they can mostly ignore the rushdistance while the other races are semi gambling to not get a build order loss(P expands, cant be punished cause of rushdistance. X expands, P can do his usual allin to break it like on any other map).
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On March 20 2011 00:40 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution. It would require some major tweaking but the warp gate is definitely a terrible mechanic. Protoss would be a much better (as in gameplay-wise) race without it.
Its because there is no reason not to warp gate that there is a problem I don't seee why there isn't a choice involved. Gateways should have lower cooldown or an upgrade to lower the cooldowns and an upgrade for warpgate that keeps higher cooldowns but allows warps accross the map so that there is actually a choice in the game a player would have to make solves all problems couldn't reload your 4-6 gate so fast if you went warpgate and if you went low cooldown upgraded gateways you have to rally up them all so travel time makes it fairer.
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On March 20 2011 02:25 Greentellon wrote:
Well, since protoss didn't recieve any significant buffs since release (I mean, phoenix and hallucinate buffs haven't exacly been game breakers), all I can deduce is that either maps broke balance or protoss players finally learned to play.
If we assume that the changes to maps are genuinely behind the protoss surge, then I think you could look at this the other way. Rather than saying that maps broke balance, perhaps maps merely revealed imbalance that already existed, but went unnoticed because pro-level games did't reach the lategame often enough for us to notice.
Rather than opposing the use of larger community-made maps, I think we should be grateful that we now have them, so that the game can be balanced, over time, with them in mind.
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On March 19 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:how about removing warpgate? won't this solve 4gate and KA complaints? Poll: Remove Warpgate?No (78) 53% Yes (70) 47% 148 total votes Your vote: Remove Warpgate? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
i know its a huge change and probably will never happen but just wondering if others might see this as a solution.
Rofl they should never remove warpgates -- but -- they should change warpgates so that they can only warp-in things in an circular area with a radius similar to the sensor tower. Warp prisms would still be able to warp in everywhere, but their price would increase.
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On March 20 2011 02:03 Moki.tv wrote:
I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think warpgates should have a greater cooldown the farther the unit is warped from the warpgate
I'm sure there are a few ideas out there to fix this. Personally I think if gateways produced faster then warpgates more people would produce out of gateways rather then just warp gates. Warpgate would still be a great tool to reinforce in engagements, but gateways will give a sense of a defensive advantage, allowing you to build up units faster. Would add another dimension to Protoss, gateway units could use a buff.
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EPT
