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On March 21 2011 07:10 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote: (3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!! Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote: Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead Good God , Moki , no offence but you really are bad at math & logic  If you dont explain WHY he is bad at those things you are just making a useless post.
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On March 21 2011 07:18 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:10 Tiax;mous wrote:On March 20 2011 00:25 Moki.tv wrote: (3900 Masters T)
I was just thinking about the Ghost EMP nerf
This totally changes the HT/Ghost wars
Say you have 1 HT vs 1 Ghost, both at 200 energy. HT has the potential to remove energy and kill the ghost (feedback does damage), whereas EMP can only remove 100 HT energy, and the HT still can feedback the ghost (or even storm). So the only viable option is to either have two ghosts use two emps on ONE HT (waste of energy), or have two Ghosts snipe the HT simultaneously (if you only have 1 ghost, the delay is enough for the HT to feedback). So this means that in Ghost/HT wars, you will need at least two ghosts for every HT (at least in the first engagement). Hope Blizzard took that into account!!! On March 20 2011 04:01 Moki.tv wrote: Protoss is mathematically stronger Late game
say you have both T and P has 200/200 armies.
P can instantly reinforce, T must train the units => P will always be 1 production cycle ahead Good God , Moki , no offence but you really are bad at math & logic  What math and logic are so bad? He's right in terms of gateway units.
He's right about +1 cycles , but that doesn't mean anything as toss & terran cycles takes different times and doesn't takes reactors in account and +1 cycle is only true for gateway units and lots of other thing. So all in all , toss may be stronger in late game but those things doesnt show that Protoss is mathematically stronger late game really
Rabiator - I'm really sorry , I thought I don't need to explain why his "2 Ghosts for 1 HT" logic is wrong. My apologies...
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toss is mathematically stronger late game because of the splash damage from their units. Tanks are similar but marines are a lot weaker to splash than stalkers.
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On March 20 2011 16:32 HyAjO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:00 Kyuki wrote: If they made warp-in time proximity based on the pylons position to a Nexus that would reduce the effectiveness of the reinforcement of forward pylons but not remove the possibility. The further away you are from the nexi the longer a warpin will take. Basically you could calculate it to be compared to how long it would take to run from a nexus (closest to warpin position) to the actual pylon your warping in on.
This makes the the Warpgate a great defensive tool still and also increases productionrate of good macro players, but it will reduce the strength of the reinforcement potential during rushes.
You could even use the Warp-prism to have a much smaller warp-in area but leave it as it is (time to warp in that is), thus making the harassment tool still viable, but you can't warp in a whole army and you need the tech to actually use it.
Thoughts? *Edit* just read others have similar suggestions. I think using the nexus as the proximity based structure is better for the sake of the defensive capabilities. There should still be some reason to get the upgrade besides using warp-prism (using my example..) I like the way you think but protoss is already very strong defensively due to warpgate mechanics and chrono boost. I like your idea but I feel as if their defensive capabilities would be too strong and yes it would be a nice change to make warp prisms more viable.. I personally think warp prisms need a slight shield boost while not landed I think you missunderstood me abit. This wouldnt change anything on how the warp-in would work defensively to how it works right now (as in it wouldnt decrease warp-in time) it would just increase it if you're warp-in location is further away.
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On March 21 2011 07:29 ixi.genocide wrote: toss is mathematically stronger late game because of the splash damage from their units. Tanks are similar but marines are a lot weaker to splash than stalkers.
Marines also cost less and use less supply. Also Marines do more DPS. I'd like to think that a Unit that Costs alot more is a little better.
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On March 21 2011 07:35 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:29 ixi.genocide wrote: toss is mathematically stronger late game because of the splash damage from their units. Tanks are similar but marines are a lot weaker to splash than stalkers. Marines also cost less and use less supply. Also Marines do more DPS. I'd like to think that a Unit that Costs alot more is a little better.
I know the marine is extremely powerful, I was saying that Protoss is very good lategame because its aoe damage has more of an effect on marines than tanks have on the protoss units (which is still very effective).
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[Don't think anyone is really arguing that Zerg is under-powered against Terran. It's more Z v P that seems a little unbalanced atm.[/QUOTE]
i think the state of z v p is horrible right now, toss can only win (unless the zerg player horribly screws up) if he A. 4 gates which just comes down to zerg scouting in time to stop it B. if he can get a deathball with collosi and void rays
personally i think it is a really boring matchup- at least it terran for the time being you can choose between collosi and templar and but templar vs zerg is a pretty bad choice and you will lose in an even match. i play toss and i still think collosi need to be Nerfed in someway but the gateway units of toss need to be better (but not to much better because then it would screw up 4 gating and make it easier.
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i think the state of z v p is horrible right now, toss can only win (unless the zerg player horribly screws up) if he A. 4 gates which just comes down to zerg scouting in time to stop it B. if he can get a deathball with collosi and void rays
personally i think it is a really boring matchup- at least it terran for the time being you can choose between collosi and templar and but templar vs zerg is a pretty bad choice and you will lose in an even match. i play toss and i still think collosi need to be Nerfed in someway but the gateway units of toss need to be better (but not to much better because then it would screw up 4 gating and make it easier.
I don't think you should be allowed to comment on the state of the game if you've never watched pro matches or played above the diamond level.
EDIT: Just in case you don't understand what I mean, I'm implying you should probably go watch some pro matches.The GSL finals would be a good place to start.
EDIT 2: Just in case you don't feel like watching pro matches but insist on posting anyways, MC didn't make a single colossus, only 4gated once, and murdered July 4-1. The one game he made a void ray was the game he lost to a hydra drop timing.
EDIT 3: Just in case you don't feel like applying the above information and using it to modify your understanding of PvZ, it means that gateway units are not underpowered (if ANYTHING, it might be that sentries end up being a bit overpowered, but the jury is still out), templar are not bad versus zerg, and Protoss doesn't need a death ball or 4gate to win.
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Can anyone who's on the PTR client tell me whether Blizz is sticking to their guns with the "no losses shown below masters league" deal?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Damn, no more Viking Flowers, I was really starting to use them properly, especially in TvT it was so useful to do.
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K so i just read through the first 8 pages of this thread... Does anyone with experience during the patching of SC:BW have anything to say about blizzard's balancing abilities? I mean obviously it turned out amazing (one of the most well balanced RTS games out there) but how much of that was players adjusting (metagame shifts) and how much of that was blizzard? Because seriously most all these comments seem to be arguing over the EMP vs. Amulet and resulting in bashing on blizzard.
Not even gonna touch balance issues. No room for debate among the millions of strategical geniuses we have here on TL because everyone's own opinion is right and they'll defend it to the grave.
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On March 21 2011 08:34 humanimal wrote: K so i just read through the first 8 pages of this thread... Does anyone with experience during the patching of SC:BW have anything to say about blizzard's balancing abilities? I mean obviously it turned out amazing (one of the most well balanced RTS games out there) but how much of that was players adjusting (metagame shifts) and how much of that was blizzard? Because seriously most all these comments seem to be arguing over the EMP vs. Amulet and resulting in bashing on blizzard.
Not even gonna touch balance issues. No room for debate among the millions of strategical geniuses we have here on TL because everyone's own opinion is right and they'll defend it to the grave. Well, there weren´t that much balancing in SC:BW, at least after the first few patches. The only big change I can think of is what came with Brood War and the buff to Zealots, 60/100 instead of 80/80 that they had earlier.
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I think the EMP nerf was to allow for use of HT in PvT, as Ghosts are now still effective vs protoss but templar and sentries are not affected by them as much later on in the game. Earlier on, EMP would have more of an impact due to units having less energy.
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They really didn't shift much around very often even when it was being patched. They appeared to just let people play and use the tools given to the them to work out the balance, either that or they just didn't care after BW was out for a while. The Blizzard maps sucked. If current Blizzard was patching BW today i'd wager they would change a lot of things, for new players Protoss is certainly easier and they would change it somehow i bet. It's good it wasn't really intentionally balanced for everyone, people thought Terran was weak for ages but eventually strategies were worked out.
However... i don't believe just leaving players to their own devices will work out for SC2. So many people are coming from a BW background armed with many many years of strategies, adapting fast expands, harassment, and new ideas along with re-configurations of old ideas. Strategies are worked out so quickly because there's immediately been some gamers playing 10 hours a day from the beginning, and they spread to everyone else quickly now as well. The metagame shifts rapidly, and i think because of easier mechanics people are gonna work out every possibility (especially for early game) very quickly. So the balance will be easier to tell.
In BW, the reason the metagame kept shifting for many years, even to today infact, is because the skill requirement was so high on things like defilers, arbiters etc. that people knew they would theoretically be useful, but they required so much multitasking it took a long time before people could even use them effectively. In SC2 i'd say not many if any strategies are outside of players reach mechanically, so the game will evolve quicker. Anyway that's why i think SC2 will need to be balanced with a more hands-on approach than BW. The situation is very different now, and BW was very lucky anyway.
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Is it confirmed that the stun duration change of funal also changed the duration of the damage effect?
Also, if they actually remove the amulet I think they should make storm research a bit quicker and maybe make the whole tech path a bit cheaper and more viable
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It's confirmed in SEA. This is the new patch.
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i like that the viking flower or hiding units in general cant happan as easily, but does this mean i cant stack my mutas any more? if so its going to make hunting turrets/cannons much more costly than before. Thors will Lose their effectiveness if they cant splash aoe dmg on a stack of flying units. i feel that this change, effects more than just air units. it changes the way mutas work together. i have not tested this, so if some one has please let me know if you have; thru PM or something if you are still able to stack air units thru regular means not a patrol marker. thanks
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On March 22 2011 06:27 hugman wrote: Is it confirmed that the stun duration change of funal also changed the duration of the damage effect?
Also, if they actually remove the amulet I think they should make storm research a bit quicker and maybe make the whole tech path a bit cheaper and more viable
naaah
less versatile HTs = make ghosts / infestors / raven more viable = make colossus noob a-move deathball's of death less viable = make HTs more viable.
btw yes, the dps potential of fungal is effectively double, x2.5 versus armoured.
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On March 22 2011 07:41 jdreamer wrote: It's confirmed in SEA. This is the new patch. I dont think anyone was arguing that it wasent lol
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