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I've been thinking about this a bit myself. I think Scrap Station could be remade to be very Zerg-friendly, by having an easy third.
Things that make Zerg happy....
1. Long rush distances. The longer the better. In fact, were we actually going to make the most Zerg-favored map in the universe (which I've considered doing), it should be 256 x 256 and cross-spawns only. And you have to Zig-zag through it.
2. A backdoor natural. It the safest kind of natural there is!
3. Super-safe expansions. Look at Steppes for a second. Imagine if Steppes had a backdoor natural, in addition to the front door natural (which becomes a third), and the really easy third on Steppes was a really easy fourth. And the middle area of Steppes was replaced with Tal'Darim Altar :D
4, Big open spaces to maximize the surface area and flankability.
5. Here's one I'm thinking about that I haven't heard. Ridges. In BW, there were little cliffs for Carriers to dance around, and how good carriers were on a given map (as opposed to Arbiters) tended to depend on those ridges. Brood Lords have a pretty long range. Giving them a ridge to hide behind and keep Marines from attacking them might make them quite a bit better. This is, of course, pure theorycraft. This doesn't contradict open spaces. If a base had a little ridge right behind the mineral line, Brood Lords can abuse that (as can Carriers, but carriers aren't used in ZvP).
On March 10 2011 17:09 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 17:08 Arisen wrote:A map where you actually have good hive units? Bus seriously though... ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/436_The%20Shattered%20Temple.jpg) This, at least out of our current map pool is probably the best for zerg. Notice how everything is wide open in the middle giving ample room to surround, and barring close positions, there is a reasonable rush distance. There isn't really a "free" 3rd for protoss, so this is the best we're going to get, really. One thing that can be said disfavoring ST from zerg is that all the mineral lines but the gold hug the edge of the map, so muta harass isn't particularly strong. Really, the only thing that makes a map "zerg favored" at this stage of the game imo is a map that isn't horrible for us or superb for another race. Most of the new maps have a lot of close closed in corridors that prevent the zerg army from surrounding/flanking opposing armies, giving the strong splash/siege units of terran and protoss a big edge. So really, is ST really a "zerg map"? No, not really, but it's about the best we can ask for (beside scrap station, and that map is ridiculously good for zerg and every terran/protoss will instantly thumb it down.) WRong open area allows terran to flank zerg. If terran and toss isn't abusing wide open area, they are just bad. Remember there is no such thing as a favorable map.
But Terran and Toss units work best in tight balls....
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On March 10 2011 17:09 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 17:08 Arisen wrote:A map where you actually have good hive units? Bus seriously though... This, at least out of our current map pool is probably the best for zerg. Notice how everything is wide open in the middle giving ample room to surround, and barring close positions, there is a reasonable rush distance. There isn't really a "free" 3rd for protoss, so this is the best we're going to get, really. One thing that can be said disfavoring ST from zerg is that all the mineral lines but the gold hug the edge of the map, so muta harass isn't particularly strong. Really, the only thing that makes a map "zerg favored" at this stage of the game imo is a map that isn't horrible for us or superb for another race. Most of the new maps have a lot of close closed in corridors that prevent the zerg army from surrounding/flanking opposing armies, giving the strong splash/siege units of terran and protoss a big edge. So really, is ST really a "zerg map"? No, not really, but it's about the best we can ask for (beside scrap station, and that map is ridiculously good for zerg and every terran/protoss will instantly thumb it down.) WRong open area allows terran to flank zerg. If terran and toss isn't abusing wide open area, they are just bad. Remember there is no such thing as a favorable map. Scap station is also extremely toss and terran favored. Small choke allows better ff and tanks and short air distance.allows easier drops and pheonix play.
What, in your oppinion is good for zerg, then? Because closed in areas aren't good, and open areas aren't good, so everything is bad for zerg? No, you're being obtuse. Complaints like this are what's wrong with a large portion of the new SC2 crowd. You're not trying to focus on anything positive, you're just saying zerg is weak, and everyone else is overpowered, which isn't constructive at all. So many players aren't willing to work on a matchup they're having problems with and just cry imbalance. There are indeed several problems with zerg, but they aren't anywhere near as severe as you're making them sound.
@ the OP, I implore you to disregard this guy if you're trying to actually understand the dynamics of maps and their effects on the three races. The reason zerg likes wide open areas is because they can surround terran and protoss armies, which are focused around a "ball" dynamic, forming one concentrated group of units that have a lot of synergy together that makes them compound into an exponentially stronger army. They're not going to be splitting it apart because as the ball gets smaller, every unit becomes a little less powerful, though terrans will slow push and use groups of marines to snipe hatches and retreat them back to the main tank ball.
As to the scrap station being terran or toss favored, just about every professional Terran and Protoss thumb down SS at tournaments. IdrA discusses this in a state of the game a few months ago, where GSL wasn't getting the map diversity that they wanted because every zerg was down voting the same maps (steppes/delta) and every terran and protoss were thumbing down Scrap. In a more recent state of the game, iNcontroL, NonY, and PainUser all agree that scrap station is a horrible map.
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I like the maps being posted here. I like the idea of a map with a very open center with fewer choke points. It would be interesting to see how it panned out with good players duking it out.
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Here's my idea of a balanced map (that's not unfavorable to zerg):
- No abusable cliffs/terrain as in Lost Temple. This simply streamlines me to force a tactic like Mutas, limiting my options and thus allowing my opponent to be much more efficient in his army comp.
- Relatively close 3rd.
- No extremely close close-positions  Slag pits? Notnx.
If the map fails to meet any of these 3 criterias, it's automatically not favorable to zergs.
How a favorable map would look like in my book:
- Long rush distance between bases, allowing zerg to scout a push in time, thus allowing you to drone up excessively.
- An easily defendable expo with wide ramps that both reduce the effectiveness of forcefields and make your opponent extra shaky towards the idea of a speedling rush.
- Wide open spaces for flanking/runbys.
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On March 10 2011 17:29 Efemral wrote:
I like the maps being posted here. I like the idea of a map with a very open center with fewer choke points. It would be interesting to see how it panned out with good players duking it out.
They have a map like that, it's called shattered temple.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
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1. Long rush distances. The longer the better. In fact, were we actually going to make the most Zerg-favored map in the universe (which I've considered doing), it should be 256 x 256 and cross-spawns only. And you have to Zig-zag through it.
[/QUOTE]
This is good for zerg in the sense that you have a long time to drone and you will survive many rushes, but in ZvP, the protoss will have easy access to a third and fourth gas and will be able to make a virtually indestructible ball, because protoss is limited more by gas than minerals in the mid/late game. IdrA addresses this with the new GSL maps in the most recent state of the game.
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Interesting topic for sure. Please organize a poll on this topic soon.
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when there is creep its zerg favored, even long chokes are a deathtrap for a terran when there is creep on it, unless he can block the front with thors x3. So i think a good balanced map will feel always a little zerg unfavored x3 .
But open naturals are something neat for zerg, no rocks on the 3rd as well, and pathes to run around opponents main armys. Also if pathes the opponent will take are predictable. And the longer the rush distance between the bases the better, since the longer it his the easier it is for the zerg to intercept reinforcements or completly kill off any rush completly. (wish terran or toss could do that too ;( )
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A zerg favoured map would have no ramp that you could do speedling all ins and roach all ins and it would be undefeatable ^^
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On March 10 2011 16:46 Jumbled wrote:
I disagree about the closed-off natural. Zerg generally relies less on chokepoints for defence than the other races, and hence open naturals are likely easier to hold for zerg players than for the other races. A more important feature is having the natural close to the main, as it makes defending both bases early on easier, and allows the creep to be linked up much sooner.
I also think these half-sized expansions we've seen in some GSL maps may be beneficial to zerg. As a zerg player will need to build lots of hatcheries regardless, there is less disadvantage in claiming a half-sized expansion that there would be for protoss or terran.
This
I never really thought about this until I read a post by MorroW a while ago along these lines.
On consideration, open expansions are better for zerg because:
- they are slightly more difficult for zerg to hold early-game, but much easier to hold late-game (eg defending a tank push)
- they don't allow terran or protoss to super-fast expand
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A cool map for sure. I'm not sure the size of this map, but if it's a medium sized map, that is to say close positions aren't a stones throw from each other, this would be decent for zerg. I don't see any obviously pro zerg features, as there are some allys created in the center, but it's wide enough open to get a good flank. I think this is a pretty neutral map, but I'd like to see some games on it. It's got nice symmetry with the natural being strong for muta harass (open area behind), but not the main.
One map I PRAY we see in SC2 that I think will also create some good games...
+ Show Spoiler +
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As cerebalz said, terran and toss isn't abusing open area when they do and they will. They will win.
Look, every game I lose I played better than my opponent. Every game I win, my opponent is either terrible and played bad or Im just lucky. My opponents are usually just terrible and you know how it feels like going into every game thinking there is no way to win no matter what you do? Maps isnt going to change anything. GSL is proof. Look bigger maps with open center and toss got stronger. Terran got weaker. Zerg is still the same. There is no winning with zerg. You can't win early game cause they can wall and ff, you can't win mid game cause they can timing pushes. You can't win late game. Zerg is fundamentally broken. Listen to the man idra. No map can change that
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On March 10 2011 17:48 Arisen wrote:One map I PRAY we see in SC2 that I think will also create some good games... ![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/images/features/(4)Python1.1_logo.jpg)
iCCup Python 2 by neobowman
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/470CS.jpg)
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On March 10 2011 16:48 Axeinst wrote:
Why there should be map that is favorable for some race? why not make map that is equally favorable?
in my opinion, I don't think we'll ever see a map that is favorable to all of the races because at some point a map may be zerg favored but ends up becoming toss/terran favored later on. For example, Jungle Basin and Scrap station are zerg favored early on due to easy expansions but become terran/toss favored once you need to secure a 3rd.
I also don't think we'll see balanced maps because blizzard balanced this game on small maps like steppes of war, blistering sands and even close position LT/Meta. Also, look at a map like Terminus RE, it offers 3 pretty safe expansions, this works for and against the zerg because Toss and Terran also get 3 safe expansions AND can wall off and once Toss/terran get more than 2 bases it becomes very hard for zerg to compete. So most likely we'll have maps that favor/unfavor zerg early game and later unfavor/favor zerg late game, I think that's just how blizzard designed this game.
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On March 10 2011 17:54 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 16:48 Axeinst wrote:
Why there should be map that is favorable for some race? why not make map that is equally favorable? in my opinion, I don't think we'll ever see a map that is favorable to all of the races because at some point a map may be zerg favored but ends up becoming toss/terran favored later on. For example, Jungle Basin and Scrap station are zerg favored early on due to easy expansions but become terran/toss favored once you need to secure a 3rd. I also don't think we'll see balanced maps because blizzard balanced this game on small maps like steppes of war, blistering sands and even close position LT/Meta. Also, look at a map like Terminus RE, it offers 3 pretty safe expansions, this works for and against the zerg because Toss and Terran also get 3 safe expansions AND can wall off and once Toss/terran get more than 2 bases it becomes very hard for zerg to compete. So most likely we'll have maps that favor/unfavor zerg early game and later unfavor/favor zerg late game, I think that's just how blizzard designed this game.
Yes this is the point. Maps don't affect anything Zerg is just bad no matter on whatever maps.
I think an easy fix is to nerf(double their supply count and make them cost more) tanks, colossus and void ray and marines. Put roach back to 1 supply and make hydras cost less and have more hp and faster off creep. Otherwise, zerg will always lose on whatever map whenever.
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On March 10 2011 17:48 xbankx wrote:
As cerebalz said, terran and toss isn't abusing open area when they do and they will. They will win.
Look, every game I lose I played better than my opponent. Every game I win, my opponent is either terrible and played bad or Im just lucky. My opponents are usually just terrible and you know how it feels like going into every game thinking there is no way to win no matter what you do? Maps isnt going to change anything. GSL is proof. Look bigger maps with open center and toss got stronger. Terran got weaker. Zerg is still the same. There is no winning with zerg. You can't win early game cause they can wall and ff, you can't win mid game cause they can timing pushes. You can't win late game. Zerg is fundamentally broken. Listen to the man idra. No map can change that
IdrA only has 2 real beefs with zerg that probably need to be adressed...
1) Poor hive tech
2) Lack of scouting early game to pin an opponent on a build.
Your view of zerg is just poor. Yes, they're very difficult, and I play zerg and I know how you feel, but saying that they're fundamentally broken is just wrong, and leads to more balance discussion and complaining which leads to a degradation of thread quality, which leads to a weaker community. Look, zergs are still doing well in a lot of tournaments, which wouldn't happen if they're fundamentally broken. It's OK to say you're frustrated and feel lost, and most zergs would agree with you, but just saying the game is broken is a poor view.
To address Protoss being better on the new maps, this has more to do with the easily accessible third/fourth gas which allow protoss's great T3 units to kick in en masse and create a very strong ball which is very hard to break. In terms of map architecture, though, wide open areas are less ideal for protoss. That isn't to say that it's bad for them, either, though. Closed spaces make it easy to dissect armies with forcefields and improves unit efficiency. The reason you want a wide open space for zerg is the largely melee/short range focused army of zerg is hindered when you can't surround an army because either your lings are only hitting a very small surface area, or all your roaches are not hitting the enemy at the same time where all the protoss/terran units can hit the zerg.
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You know Kulas? take that, but remove every cliff.
Basically a map with no ramps, and no chokes, and a decent rush distance.
Narrow ramps are the bane of all zerg units.
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On March 10 2011 17:51 chuDr3t4 wrote:iCCup Python 2 by neobowman
Sweet ^^ Now only if we could play these on the ladder >< The only issue I have with this neopython is that zergs seem way strong here as every mineral line is great for muta harass.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IUedT.jpg)
