What does a zerg-favored map look like? - Page 7

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jazzbassmatt

United States566 Posts

March 11 2011 22:19 GMT

#121

On March 10 2011 17:13 xbankx wrote:

Show nested quote +

It is also hard to zerg to defend so your point is invalid.

No. Zerg's don't really benefit much from having a "choke" at their natural or main, at least when compared to other races.

FabledIntegral

United States9232 Posts

March 11 2011 22:22 GMT

#122

Close air distances, extremely far rush distances. Extremely open areas, almost no cliffs, very plain open field. Large overall map. Lots of expansions with only around 4-5 mineral patches per expansion. Main and natural might also have less overall mineral patches. Main also relatively small. Generally 4 player maps instead of 2 or 3. Ability to expand away from the enemy instead of towards.

On March 12 2011 07:19 jazzbassmatt wrote:

Show nested quote +

No. Zerg's don't really benefit much from having a "choke" at their natural or main, at least when compared to other races.

They benefit quite a bit vs 2rax and 4gate, so I'm not sure why you're saying that.

Serpico

4285 Posts

March 11 2011 22:24 GMT

#123

Zerg favored maps wont ever exist. The maps would be extremely plain for the most part.

Endymion

United States3701 Posts

March 11 2011 22:31 GMT

#124

It really depends on the zerg player in my opinion, I know a lot of zergs hate 2 player maps like xel'naga just because it limits your options opening wise, but I like the high aggression early game. Inversely, I think it's boring to play on GSL's Tal'Darim because of the size and complete lack of aggression early game. Metalopolis is an ideal map in my opinion, even on close positions. The relative lack of cliffs and pathing obstructions makes it really fun to play, and comfortable to deal with. Steppes would also be a zerg map if the ramps were wider across the board, as well as making the rush distance a little bit bigger (increasing the middle plateau by 50% would make it better I think).

One thing that can completely make playing on a map super annoying are cliffs, I'm talking to you lost temple. Having to go out of your way to defend a drop that may come because it is so powerful when the T is just massing marines and planning on allining is frustrating. Not quite as annoying as the cliffs on temple are the backdoors on shakuras plateau, it was super difficult to engage a T or P army entrenched in the backdoor moving slowly forward.

ThaZenith

Canada3116 Posts

March 11 2011 22:32 GMT

#125

Any map that's just a big, flat circle is zerg favored. No ramps, cliffs, doodads. All the space in the world to surround with zerglings.

thesums

Taiwan257 Posts

March 11 2011 22:33 GMT

#126

What about a large map with no chokes or cliffs, and with air space around the main base for mutalisks to camp. I think this will make it easy to surround and colossi and tanks will not be as effective.

Only problem would be hellions, so maybe two chokes, one for main and one for natural, but with destructible rocks, which you can later destroy and remove the choke. Not to mention add an extra vespene gas at the main.

ALang

Canada288 Posts

March 11 2011 22:36 GMT

#127

There are maps that are really strong for certain types of zerg plays. Like with typhon's wide open natural, a roach ling all in after a fast expo is almost free win vs sentry expand protoss. But once you get later in the game it evens out since bases are easy to take for both races. Narrow chokes make colossus strong but also make colossus hard to defend some corrupters coming in from the side.

terr13

United States298 Posts

March 11 2011 22:40 GMT

#128

Many bases, very open middle, and the bases are fairly spread out. This way losing 1-2 expansions doesn't really much, but the strength of Zerg Mobility is greatly increased, especially with Nydus play allowing them to move entire armies across the map, as well as Mutalisk Harass being ridiculously strong in ZvT because Thors won't be mobile enough to defend against it, and the T would have to put up a dozen turrets per base. If you want something ridiculously Zerg-favored, you can have neutral Creep Tumors around the map and a super wide ramp, or no ramp at all.

ixi.genocide

United States981 Posts

March 12 2011 07:14 GMT

#129

The ultimate Z favored map would be a giant flat ground with no chokes and or ramps. That would make Zerg practically unstoppable, To get a balanced map or a map that does not let T or P take advantage of Z (and each other) you have to start w/ an open map and close it off bit by bit til you get something to work with.

[image loading]

I drew this up pretty quick, I imagine it being approximately the size of crevasse but that would be subject to change.

EDIT: I only made 1/4 bases but the still. Also the center gold expo is lowered with the middle ring being up higher, all of the red area is a ramp. their are 2 big wide ramp on each side of the center. the bases go down to the third, the second is same lvl as main circle and main is 1 lvl higher than center area. the extra ramps to the center area are supposed to be pretty small, like 4 hex's.

EunByuL

Vietnam77 Posts

March 12 2011 10:10 GMT

#130

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197812&currentpage=3#57
[image loading]

Zim23

United States1681 Posts

March 12 2011 10:13 GMT

#131

Completely open map, expansions everywhere, no high-ground, ramps, or chokes, tons of open air around bases for mutas/overlord placement. Zerg would win every time.

Thrombozyt

Germany1269 Posts

March 12 2011 11:14 GMT

#132

On March 10 2011 18:03 Arisen wrote:

Show nested quote +

IdrA only has 2 real beefs with zerg that probably need to be adressed...

1) Poor hive tech
2) Lack of scouting early game to pin an opponent on a build.

Your view of zerg is just poor. Yes, they're very difficult, and I play zerg and I know how you feel, but saying that they're fundamentally broken is just wrong, and leads to more balance discussion and complaining which leads to a degradation of thread quality, which leads to a weaker community. Look, zergs are still doing well in a lot of tournaments, which wouldn't happen if they're fundamentally broken. It's OK to say you're frustrated and feel lost, and most zergs would agree with you, but just saying the game is broken is a poor view.

To address Protoss being better on the new maps, this has more to do with the easily accessible third/fourth gas which allow protoss's great T3 units to kick in en masse and create a very strong ball which is very hard to break. In terms of map architecture, though, wide open areas are less ideal for protoss. That isn't to say that it's bad for them, either, though. Closed spaces make it easy to dissect armies with forcefields and improves unit efficiency. The reason you want a wide open space for zerg is the largely melee/short range focused army of zerg is hindered when you can't surround an army because either your lings are only hitting a very small surface area, or all your roaches are not hitting the enemy at the same time where all the protoss/terran units can hit the zerg.

I love how xbankx is trolling you in a ridiculously obvious fashion and still there are Zergies that take him serious. For a Zerg favored map, take Shattered temple, remove the rocks blocking the entrance to the corner expos, widen the ramp between natural and main abit and give extra space behind the main and natural minerals.

sixzeros

72 Posts

March 12 2011 13:13 GMT

#133

I like the idea of reducing minerals per base (6 patches), and only having 1 gas per base, but lots of expansions.

Once zerg captures map control, the turtles would be stuck on 1 or 2 base, while zerg takes 5 base and runs on 5+ gas vs 2 gas.

Also the 2 base turtle would only have 12 mineral patches mining effectively while zerg would have 30 patches.

Under these conditions you could let them choke up their ramps all day, there's no way they're coming out of it with a crap load of thor, banchee or collossus and the dreaded 3 base protoss would be no worries either.

Everyone would be forced to come out into the open or starve

Ageless

United States67 Posts

March 13 2011 19:27 GMT

#134

I think it is important to note that Backwater Gulch is what people are describing as a Zerg favored map. Especially against Protoss. The distance between the natural and mian is incredible due to the ledge and ramp placement, and the wide bottom ramp maes it bad for Protoss to fast expand as lings get by very easliy. Needless to say I have down-voted it.

Keitzer

United States2509 Posts

March 13 2011 19:30 GMT

#135

the GSL maps are pretty awesome

S.O.L.I.D.

United States792 Posts

March 13 2011 19:33 GMT

#136

I see Shattered Temple as a Zerg favored map. The middle is HUGE and definitely favors Zerg as far as large engagements go. Back door rocks are helpful for 3rd bases in anything other that close positions. Bigger choke point helps out, along with no cliff. Close air is good for mutas. I have a tough time beating Z there, but that might just be me.

Fiel

United States587 Posts

March 13 2011 19:43 GMT

#137

The number one most zerg favored map in all of history is God's Garden:

+ Show Spoiler [God's Garden] +

It's a close cousin to Fighting Spirit.

- Easy to defend natural
- Backdoor third
- If you can expand to another natural and defend it, you get an additional two bases. Much easier for Zerg to split the map up.
- Doom drops on another player's third is powerful and easy to do. Zerg can fly back with nydus.

Nerski

United States1095 Posts

March 13 2011 20:17 GMT

#138

here is the deal, you want a balanced map, but to do that there is beyond a few considerations you have to take into account.

For Zerg

-No Rush distance Can Take an enemy opponent less then 55 seconds to transverse to your natural...but no more either. (enough time to build a couple spines only, but not so big you can't spread creep across the map).

-The center needs to be open enough for surrounds, but not be able to be easily cut in half by tank lines. I suspect this is what makes slag pits cross spots work somewhat well, the middle is depressed with raised area around it.

-Must be plenty of places to expand to IE: at least, 12 bases on the map. This is why shak cross and metal cross have provided some of the best games zerg have been in.

For Protoss

-Absolutely must be chokes where FF, Psi Storm, And colossus can do damage.

-Must be just enough distance they have time to get their initial gateway up and cybercore without getting bum rushed...but not more distance or the immobile nature of their army makes leaving home base more difficult.

-Need enough take able bases to get to 3 bases in order to make an effective death ball and not be out of resources after they engage with it.

For Terran

- Need cliffs where siege tanks can be more effective.

- Need as little distance to their opponent as possible.

-Need areas not transversable by ground for their air units and drops.

These are over generalizations, but to balance what the races need is beyond difficult. All 3 need things the others don't want on the large part. Making a map that has all things good for the races would be difficult.

HavoK.

United States172 Posts

March 13 2011 20:21 GMT

#139

Im looking at the drawn map of yours and all i saw was that if it was TvZ T would love this with taking a forward third and seigeing you nat at the same time. xD seems like more pain than pleasure for a Z if you ask me.

frozt_

United States234 Posts

March 13 2011 21:29 GMT

#140

Map looks horrible for zergs, the positions even cross map the ramps are almost touching one another. Close positions would be a train wreck

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What does a zerg-favored map look like? - Page 7

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