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On March 10 2011 18:07 Hectic wrote:
Everyone thinks that a giant map is better for zerg, but thats only because of all the daimond newbies farming wins with 1 trick hyper-agressive play. A good long game terran/ protoss player can actually use the distance against you because it will be they who just keep expanding and building 10 cannons at every base once they are maxed.
On a small map zerg can control the terran and protoss enough to keep them bite size. On a large map the zerg getings into a situation where they have to make too many decisions and strategical moves compared to a terran or protoss, simply because their outlying expansions are far more squishy.
It's almost like you need to build 5 spine crawlers and 3 spore cralers at each expansion just so that you can focus your attention on beating the terran ball.
So you start off by saying that large maps are bad for zerg because protoss can just build 10 cannons at every expansion when maxed, and it will be impossible to break.
And then you seemingly forget what you just wrote, and say that "it's almost like" zerg has to build 5 spine crawlers and 3 spore crawlers at every expansion to be able to defend them.
Am I missing some crucial point here?
It's easier for A to do X than it is for B to do X, because while A only has to do Y to be able to do X, it's almost like B has to do Y to be able to do X. Which is a lot harder, obviously.
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On March 10 2011 16:48 Axeinst wrote:
Why there should be map that is favorable for some race? why not make map that is equally favorable?
Why create imbalance? Why not create balance?
Because it's not always on purpose.
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Just make a giant wide-open map that is covered in creep that can't be removed.
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Zerg Favored Map - Ling/Bling/Ultras have good open areas to fight.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/zp128.png)
Terran Favored Map - Tank+Viking would reign supreme.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/fuboa.png)
EDIT: Images loading... ...is imgur broken?
Anyway, the maps are identical in bases, 8 bases on the entire thing, one in each corner and one on each side, except:
Zerg favored has each main base with 2 ramps each and everything else flat.
Terran favored has tons of cliffs and ramps for tank placement.
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No ramps. giant map. no chokes. no doodads. no elevation.
=)
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On March 11 2011 02:26 1Eris1 wrote:
No ramps. giant map. no chokes. no doodads. no elevation.
=)
covered in creep
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Zergs have an absurd and disproportionate win-rate on scrap station. I would say that qualifies it as a zerg map.
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I'm not sure giant maps favor zerg. If they don't have complete vision of drops/banshees/voids coming it can be actually quite bad for zerg. If the amount of overlords we have don't suffice in terms of map vision it's no good.
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Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is that zerg does not have to contend with runbys, so naturally, anything which makes it difficult to wall (like Slag Pits) to defend the nat and the main at the same time is favorable to zerg (provided the rush distances are long enough to make one-base play inefficient). For instance, a map with a single attack path to both the nat and main with a large distance between the ramp and the nat would be hell to wall.
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On March 11 2011 02:18 Sajuuk7 wrote:Zerg Favored Map - Ling/Bling/Ultras have good open areas to fight. Terran Favored Map - Tank+Viking would reign supreme. EDIT: Images loading... ...is imgur broken? Anyway, the maps are identical in bases, 8 bases on the entire thing, one in each corner and one on each side, except: Zerg favored has each main base with 2 ramps each and everything else flat. Terran favored has tons of cliffs and ramps for tank placement.
This is a good comparison of what is ideal for T and Z. The only thing I would change for the ideal T map is one ramp at the gold instead of 2 but thats just me nit-picking the crap out of it n_n
On March 10 2011 17:09 xbankx wrote:
WRong open area allows terran to flank zerg. If terran and toss isn't abusing wide open area, they are just bad. Remember there is no such thing as a favorable map.
Scap station is also extremely toss and terran favored. Small choke allows better ff and tanks and short air distance.allows easier drops and pheonix play.
You contradicted yourself... How is there no such thing as a favorable map? You even gave an example of a favorable map the next sentence.. Not to mention most everything you said is hogwash.
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If I was to make a map to ridiculously favor zerg (without being unplayable by other races) it would be this:
- Very long ground distance
- no gold bases
- LoS blockers all through the middle
- No pathable cliffs (colossus/reaper cliffwalk doesn't do anything)
- XN towers that can see most of the enemies main/nat from outside
- unpathable cliffs near/in the enemies base to park overlords on for scouting
- no room behind mineral lines at all, instead an unpathable cliff providing a good place to retreat mutas over. this forces any cannons/turrets to be in the mineral line itself to offer any protection.
- very wide open middle of the map
Other ideas that would make the map favor zerg in funny/possibly very imba ways:
- Short air distance, blocked by a thick wall of invulnerable eggs, meaning zerg can burrow-move under them, as well as spread creep into the enemies base
- Neutral creep tumors all over the middle of the map.
- neutral creep at natural expansion, requiring P/T to get detection to kill tumor before expanding
- neutral creep covering the choke point to your base, preventing wall-off for anybody but zerg, and actually allowing zerg to wall-off.
- Pack of neutral motherships/colossus/tanks to be Neural parasited
- unpathable to expansions, even by air, but enough vision for a nydus worm is possible from a XN tower
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A battle royal remake from BW, that disastrous proleague map would be the absolute zerg favoured map.
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every choke, high ground, cliff and the like make a map less zerg favored. the more wide open the better.
the only thing that zerg can sometimes benefit from is places without any land that they can hide overlords in to see incoming drops/bansees.
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On March 11 2011 02:18 Sajuuk7 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zerg Favored Map - Ling/Bling/Ultras have good open areas to fight. Terran Favored Map - Tank+Viking would reign supreme. EDIT: Images loading... ...is imgur broken? Anyway, the maps are identical in bases, 8 bases on the entire thing, one in each corner and one on each side, except: Zerg favored has each main base with 2 ramps each and everything else flat. Terran favored has tons of cliffs and ramps for tank placement.
You didn't add the Protoss favored map, so I'll do it for you.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mWQvy.jpg)
If you want to play the alpha version of the map, with too wide a choke and too many player spawning locations, it's called Fastest Possible Map.
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A ridiculously favored zerg map ?
Maximum distance map. No ramps. No cliffs.No xel naga towers. No cliffs. Nothing. Just bases. No gold bases.Expansions quite a bit away from each other. 2 bases to expand to close to starting location (to stop pylon blocks, etc).
What would this accomplish? Make cliff abuse / forcefields useless. Make zerglings insanely useful scouts. Make flanking dead easy. etc. Zerg should win 100% of the games at such a map.
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On March 11 2011 03:53 aebriol wrote:
A ridiculously favored zerg map ?
Maximum distance map. No ramps. No cliffs.No xel naga towers. No cliffs. Nothing. Just bases. No gold bases.Expansions quite a bit away from each other. 2 bases to expand to close to starting location (to stop pylon blocks, etc).
What would this accomplish? Make cliff abuse / forcefields useless. Make zerglings insanely useful scouts. Make flanking dead easy. etc. Zerg should win 100% of the games at such a map.
you'd want XN towers as zerg to provide you easy vision without risking more then a few lings.
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On March 11 2011 03:54 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 03:53 aebriol wrote:
A ridiculously favored zerg map ?
Maximum distance map. No ramps. No cliffs.No xel naga towers. No cliffs. Nothing. Just bases. No gold bases.Expansions quite a bit away from each other. 2 bases to expand to close to starting location (to stop pylon blocks, etc).
What would this accomplish? Make cliff abuse / forcefields useless. Make zerglings insanely useful scouts. Make flanking dead easy. etc. Zerg should win 100% of the games at such a map. you'd want XN towers as zerg to provide you easy vision without risking more then a few lings.
Nah actually, I'd rather be completely free to flank without warning whenever opponent moves out. Keep their base surrounded by lings to spot things moving out early game, later game keep creep everywhere.
Anyway, it would be in my interest to keep opponent from taking their third, and it would be so easy on such a map. Could even deny their second for a long time.
That map needs to be on the ladder ... just that and steppes of war, a nice combination for everyone to play on 
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you forgot the rich 4 geyser only expansions
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long rush distances
moderately open naturals. I say this because zerg, thanks to speedlings and creep, is the most capable of defending early expands. they can hold a relatively open natural like that of metal very early, while a protoss generally couldn't. obviously it can't be too out there in the open, but think along the lines of xelnaga or metalopolis naturals.
wide spaces for surrounds
good overlord chill spots
no close (or negligible) close positions
wide ramps
a layout that allows you to expand away from your opponent. you can't really aggressively expand as zerg. if a hatchery is under attack from a siege line or colossus or something, there's absolutely nothing you can do to save it. for example, taking the gold on xelnaga is hell since you're expanding toward your opponent.
more than 8 expansions (not including main bases), since if a protoss or terran splits the map and turtles on 4 bases, zerg can't get enough resources to break it.
all of those are small aspects of "zerg favored maps." yet by zerg favored, i generally mean "not terran or protoss favored"
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/436_The%20Shattered%20Temple.jpg)
