|
I actually think if maps get too big they become harder for the zerg. When you end up in a huge macro game terran and protoss can use the huge maps to keep you away from them and use their super powerful pinpoint harass to smash your outying bases while you cant touch theirs because they have 10 photon cannons or a planetary fortress at each expansion (and once your at 200/200 with 3 or more mining bases there's no reason to hold back on the cannons and PF's).
Everyone thinks that a giant map is better for zerg, but thats only because of all the daimond newbies farming wins with 1 trick hyper-agressive play. A good long game terran/ protoss player can actually use the distance against you because it will be they who just keep expanding and building 10 cannons at every base once they are maxed.
On a small map zerg can control the terran and protoss enough to keep them bite size. On a large map the zerg getings into a situation where they have to make too many decisions and strategical moves compared to a terran or protoss, simply because their outlying expansions are far more squishy.
It's almost like you need to build 5 spine crawlers and 3 spore cralers at each expansion just so that you can focus your attention on beating the terran ball.
Otherwise you see what happened to ret and haypro in code A. They played well, but noone can play well enough to defend 3 expansions simultaneously at different points on the map from dropships while holding back a death push through the middle.
Meanwhile the terrran can sit back and laugh because the only way a zerg can snipe a terran expansion is by using your entire force or suiciding 30 banelings into the planetary which leaves you vulnerable while you replenish.
On top of that, on a huge map its 10 times harder to spread your creep far enough to allow some quick offsive movements and its about 10x more of a pain in the ass when they kill all your tumors and you have to respread your creep.
I think that choke points are what makes or breaks a zerg map, because zerg need to be in your face to actually kill anything. If it's too hard to get into a good position to fight that deathball because of ledges and forcefeilds in corridoors, then the map is gonna be hard. Open spaces past the natural which you can keep your force mobile with minimal choke points is ideal.
I would give a zerg favored map the follwing criteria.
1. Not to small
2. Not too big
3. Not too many chokepoints
|
I would say the two new maps added recently (Slug Pits and Typhoon Peaks) are ideal for zerg, with the exception of Slug Pits close spawns. Also the redesign of the new Lost Temple is somewhat favouring zerg. Here are the factors that matter for me (I am protoss and these are in fact the factors making me uncomfortable against zerg):
- wide and open areas (Slug Pits & Shattered Temple)
- No expansions in the centre to control with planetary/cannons+death ball (Shattered, slag pits, typhoon peaks)
- Multiple attack paths (typhoon peaks and somewhat slug pits)
- close natural easily connectable with 1-2 creep tumors with the main (shattered, typhoon peaks)
|
On March 10 2011 20:08 Sir_J wrote:
I would say the two new maps added recently (Slug Pits and Typhoon Peaks) are ideal for zerg, with the exception of Slug Pits close spawns. Also the redesign of the new Lost Temple is somewhat favouring zerg. Here are the factors that matter for me (I am protoss and these are in fact the factors making me uncomfortable against zerg):
- wide and open areas (Slug Pits & Shattered Temple)
- No expansions in the centre to control with planetary/cannons+death ball (Shattered, slag pits, typhoon peaks)
- Multiple attack paths (typhoon peaks and somewhat slug pits)
- close natural easily connectable with 1-2 creep tumors with the main (shattered, typhoon peaks)
I feel like once you get out to the middle of typhon with some colossus protoss is really strong there because of the narrow corridors. I think zerg is ok on typhon, but will run into problems vs colossus based protoss and seige tank focused terrans.
|
Lot of air space behind mineral lines
Is that to get killed easier by banshees/void rays ?
|
In order of importance:
Long rush distances.
Expansions in the edges of the map rather than between the players.
No "free" third expansion.
Easy to hold natural, (but not wallable with gateway-forge-cyber core)
Open and with alternative routes between each others bases.
No island expansions.
Good spots for OLs.
The best z map in the map pool is cross position metalopolis, by far.
|
Wouldn't completely open mains make ZvP really hard for P in the early game? The zerg could attack with a bunch of lings and the initial zealot obviously can't cover ... well, anything really.
I mean, pretty much every P/TvZ, the P/T walls off. So removing the ability to wall off would make it Z favoured IMO.
|
natural expo in front of main ramp
third base right beside natural
1 hour walking distance between bases
no cliffs doodads walls rocks or any type of arcitecture on the map
completely flat ground middle with no chokes anywhere
gold 4th base right beside 3rd
4 player map
|
I think you guys are all overthinking this. IMO a completely open map without any choke points or terrain would be godlike for Zerg. If Terran/Protoss can't wall in it takes away so many options, not to mention how good lings and roaches are on open terrain, and then there's the fact that you can constantly run lings in and scout then you can know exactly when it's safe to power drones and when you have to make units, Zerg benefits far more from omniscience than other races due to how their economy works.
|
a lot of people seem to confuse "balanced" with "zerg favored" itt
for example: a lot of narrow places and chokes and short distances make it pretty much impossible for Z to win a straight up game unless the Z player is really better or executes an all-in perfectly.
if the distance is longer or there is open space, it suddenly seems like it's an omg amazing Z map! but in fact it's not really Z FAVORED, it just makes it possible to deal with very cool stuff like colballs or huge tank lines, but certainly not easy.
the few things that would really favor Z are ridiculous anyway, like removing the ability to wall off, yeah sure that'd be nice for Z, but stupid
|
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/KEKoL.jpg)
This does not look that good at all :O.
|
killing fields (from broodwar) was the zerg style map. no chokes or ramps, and tons of open space.
|
I don't really find the maps bother me so much once I know them... I have specific places on each map I like to catch big ball armies if I am on D that they pretty much need to cross in order to get to my base.
I like to try and come at them from at least 2 directions on any map.
|
I guess it's kinda important that it is a 4-player-Map, because:
- Makes early scouting harder, which means that the opponent can less likely pull off some cheese, block your Expansion and other stuff like that.
- Also, against Mech/Deathball, it's important that you can expand far away from your Main, but also far away from the opponent, so the slower moving Army of the opponent can't kill all your bases without having to travel too far and fear a counterattack etc.
Also, because Zerg has a quite hard time destroying destructible Rocks, the less rocks the better for the Zerg I guess.
Wide open spaces with different pathways are also quite important, at least in the middle-area of the Map.
A rather narrow entrance to the nat without much space behind the Minerals is also quite important for defending against Hellions.
Another thing is of course nice places around the Map for the Overlords to hide (without Xel-Naga Towers near them so they can be sniped too easily).
No Single-Gas-Expansions, those aren't that useful for Zerg tbh.
|
On March 10 2011 20:50 Falcon_NL wrote:This does not look that good at all :O.
you cant build there..
|
On March 10 2011 16:59 xbankx wrote:
I mean comon, Open space allows terran to flank zerg and open area for toss allows toss to draw pictures with ff easier.
Zerg tends to be more difficult to play than other races, but all balance discussion aside, if Terran is flanking Zerg then Zerg is doing something wrong.
|
I'd like to throw in the notion of little cliff-mound things. Essentially some raised bit of terrain, really small but where you can stick a floating overlord to safely keep watch without being spotted by passing units below the raised ground. I like it when my spotter ovies are safe
|
I'd have to say Desert Oasis is what a zerg favored map looks like. Or at least it did before the phoenix was introduced. Mutalisks on that map were pretty incredible.
|
|
|
those look like gigantic testicals
User was temp banned for this post.
|
I feel like one helpful thing for zerg is a medium sized map where there are multiple attack paths but they can be easily covered in creep. For example on metalopolis cross-position its really easy to build 2 creep highways along the map, giving you nearly perfect vision of the map and the ability to move extremely quickly.
On bigger maps its obviously much harder to get such information so easily. People sometimes underestimate what good creep spread can mean for a zerg.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
