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What does a zerg-favored map look like? - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
March 10 2011 19:24 GMT
#101
I think larger maps could deal with distances being "too far" for zerg to cover with creep by adding neutral creep tumors on the map much like some BW maps had neutral creep colonies.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
March 10 2011 19:39 GMT
#102
On March 10 2011 17:27 Ribbon wrote:
I've been thinking about this a bit myself. I think Scrap Station could be remade to be very Zerg-friendly, by having an easy third.


Things that make Zerg happy....

2. A backdoor natural. It the safest kind of natural there is!



I used to think the same, but I'm now of the opposite opinion. A backdoor natural is actually much more favorable to Terran or Protoss. The reason for this is that a front natural actually improves Zerg's defense of his main due to creep spread. In a way it's the Zerg equivalent of walling. By contrast, a backdoor natural, such as on Jungle Basin, leaves Zerg extremely vulnerable to any cheesy aggression, since it is not possible to spine crawler the ramp, or at least limit the opponent to attacking one base. Meanwhile, Terran and Protoss can control their front ramp anyway, so a backdoor expansion is pure bonus. It allows fast expansions without the risk of a zergling runby and consequently less static defense. Add destructible rocks such as on Delta Quadrant and you have a Zerg's nightmare.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
March 10 2011 19:49 GMT
#103
Ultimate zerg favored map:
One with no way to "wall in".
6-pool every time baby!

But on a more serious note:
2 Player map with a super close natural and third. Lots of space behind for muta harass. No destructible rocks, and no "cliff hopping".
Freeeeeeedom
CoMMoDuS
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany507 Posts
March 10 2011 19:50 GMT
#104
i think maps which offer large space around bases but grant small room for the actual base are pretty good because scouting and therefore overlord placement is so essential for zerg.
i think that maps cannot favour zerg as much as the other races, because in my opinion they are unable to use cliffs to their benefit as well as the other races.
changing neutral animals to ultralisks might make zergs early game alot easier though.
There is no unemployment amongst overlords-Artosis
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
March 10 2011 19:52 GMT
#105
On March 11 2011 04:49 cLutZ wrote:
Ultimate zerg favored map:
One with no way to "wall in".
6-pool every time baby!

But on a more serious note:
2 Player map with a super close natural and third. Lots of space behind for muta harass. No destructible rocks, and no "cliff hopping".


not 6-pool, as that is meant to get there before the wall-in anyways, you'll want a 14/14 mass speedling build into roaches I think on a fully open map.
MementoMori
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada419 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-10 19:58:52
March 10 2011 19:57 GMT
#106
Just my opinion
-a close natural which is closed in so a spine crawler can defend both the natural and the main
-a large but not huge map
-a very open middle of the map
-a third base which does not require expanding towards your opponent

I don't agree with the people saying that multiple entrances to the main always helps zerg. Blistering sands is just one way of doing that. That map was good for zerg at times because the defender had to walk farther than the attacker. Also keep in mind that if there are rocks for the enemy to break through, it really limits what zerg can do. 4 gates or heavy bio play early is much more of a problem because you can't rely on spines
for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
March 10 2011 20:03 GMT
#107
Don't forget, a wide expansion can also be zerg-favored (depends on size versus chokes)
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Eknoid4
Profile Joined October 2010
United States902 Posts
March 11 2011 07:10 GMT
#108
Cover the entire map with creep
If you're mad that someone else is brazenly trumpeting their beliefs with ignorance, perhaps you should be mad that you are doing it too.
tzenes
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada64 Posts
March 11 2011 08:17 GMT
#109
On March 10 2011 16:55 stupidhydro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2011 16:48 Axeinst wrote:
Why there should be map that is favorable for some race? why not make map that is equally favorable?


I think, but correct me if I'm wrong, the point is that some people believe that maps just can't really be "zerg favored" and that maps that are "good for zerg" are ones that are just not unfavorable to them.

I think this is an interesting point. A lot of people thought big maps and easy to take expansions, for example GSL Terminus Re, would favor zergs more but it turns out having easy to take expansions seems to favor terran and protoss just as much and that zerg macro without early pressure doesn't seem to be exorbitantly better than terran or protoss macroing up with the long rush distances either.

Edit: well I'm a slow typer because the OP responded to the quote already but I agree with the response that I actually don't know what is really "zerg favored" either.


I think the idea that there is no such thing as a "Zerg Favored" map arises from the low win rate that Zerg have been having in major tournaments (~45%). While this may be from any number factors, its still worth discussing what maps help Zerg (or hurt).

To this end I've spend the time to assemble a listing of maps which are most (or least) favorable:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tsdNUMXQu6hIurnQigHkGTQ&authkey=CMX1050H#gid=0

I also summarized my methodologies in a blog post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=200326
Nightfall.589
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada766 Posts
March 11 2011 08:20 GMT
#110
Very small main base.

Somewhat open natural entrance. Ramp to the main base located as far in the back of the natural as possible.

Third tucked away in a secure location, so you don't need to expand towards the enemy.

Very open middle area, few chokes.

Water around the main base/expansion, for muta harass. No cliffs.
Proof by Legislation: An entire body of (sort-of) elected officials is more correct than all of the known laws of physics, math and science as a whole. -Scott McIntyre
Sirion
Profile Joined August 2010
131 Posts
March 11 2011 10:30 GMT
#111
What I did not see mentioned is a main with only one gas, and of course an open natural(with two gas).

1 gas in main kills so many strategies by terran and toss, it is not even funny. Well, as a zerg player I giggle at the thought of banshees or sentry expand off of 1 gas.
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 11:57:54
March 11 2011 11:54 GMT
#112
In my opinion zerg favors maps that have long distance (aside from the natural), easy to access, hard to hold expansions.

The rush distances should also be long of course, and there would be very little choke points such as narrow paths or ramps.

islands are also not good for zerg generally.

Generally, it would be a really damn simple and dumb map... Think big game hunters redesigned for 1v1, and with most or all of the water removed.

On March 11 2011 19:30 Sirion wrote:
What I did not see mentioned is a main with only one gas, and of course an open natural(with two gas).

1 gas in main kills so many strategies by terran and toss, it is not even funny. Well, as a zerg player I giggle at the thought of banshees or sentry expand off of 1 gas.

But zerglings and roaches, zerg's main 2 low teir units, are both trash vs critical mass of any other low tier composition, like stalkers, zealots, marauders, marines, etc.
Sure it makes terrans and protoss more predictable, and less able to use their fancy stuff, but they can just dominate with meat and potatoes. marauder-hellion would be absolutely impossible for zerg to deal with if there was only 1 gas on bases (it's strong enough as it is IMO).
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
frucisky
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2170 Posts
March 11 2011 12:12 GMT
#113
Bases with chokes without ramps will be good for zerg. Ramps in general are bad for zerg, partly cuz creep spread is harder with ramps - i.e. Crossfire and Terminus.
<3 DongRaeGu <3
Highwinds
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada955 Posts
March 11 2011 12:17 GMT
#114
The entire map is covered in neutral creep except for the area surrounding the nexus/command centers.
Yes It's a Good Day. 저는 아이유 사랑해요!
Sirion
Profile Joined August 2010
131 Posts
March 11 2011 12:34 GMT
#115
On March 11 2011 20:54 Xapti wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2011 19:30 Sirion wrote:
What I did not see mentioned is a main with only one gas, and of course an open natural(with two gas).

1 gas in main kills so many strategies by terran and toss, it is not even funny. Well, as a zerg player I giggle at the thought of banshees or sentry expand off of 1 gas.

But zerglings and roaches, zerg's main 2 low teir units, are both trash vs critical mass of any other low tier composition, like stalkers, zealots, marauders, marines, etc.
Sure it makes terrans and protoss more predictable, and less able to use their fancy stuff, but they can just dominate with meat and potatoes. marauder-hellion would be absolutely impossible for zerg to deal with if there was only 1 gas on bases (it's strong enough as it is IMO).

Well, in my experience one can work with 2 geysers really well in the early game unless you want fast mutas. And one could add 3 rich gas no mineral thirds to support the gas-heavy midgame. But looking at typical games, zerg takes gas late, puts drones of gas, and sometimes takes a third before adding geysers 2,3,4. So I am quite convinced that a zerg on 2 geysers(main + natural) can deal with all 1-base plays from 1-gasing terran/toss.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
March 11 2011 12:36 GMT
#116
the biggest map possible entirely flat with two spawns diagonally seperated, not sure how the minerals would be, or really any map that makes walling off REALLY hard
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
March 11 2011 14:08 GMT
#117
One where you spawn as Terran.
Sensator
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia377 Posts
March 11 2011 14:12 GMT
#118
Big maps with large chokes. Narrow chokes such as Slag Pits = forcefield abuse and tank abuse, and there's nothing Zerg can do about it.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
March 11 2011 14:19 GMT
#119
On March 11 2011 23:12 Sensator wrote:
Big maps with large chokes. Narrow chokes such as Slag Pits = forcefield abuse and tank abuse, and there's nothing Zerg can do about it.


pretty much this : P
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 16:08:46
March 11 2011 16:08 GMT
#120
Here is my take on the "Zerg attributes" for a map:
  1. Main base creep should be close enough to the main ramp to plant several Spine Crawlers in reach of it without requiring a Creep Tumor.
  2. Main base entrance should have only a limited area which can be shelled by artillery from the outside and a short distance of cliff to jump / blink up (kinda like Steppes of War had).
  3. Natural base should be behind the main base and relatively FAR AWAY from it. The reason for the increased distance is not for the Zergs own defensive benefit but rather for their offensive benefit. Close bases mean that only a few turrets can cover a large area against Muta harrass and only a few Pylons / Supply Depots need to be placed around the bases to spot for drops and Nyduses.
  4. Ground rush distance should be pretty large.
  5. Middle area should have relatively open spaces or several separated routes from A to B.
  6. Cliffs should be minimal but line-of-sight blocking grass is good.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
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