I just found this neat trick on the Shattered Temple. It basicaly allows you to blink in your opponent's base without the need for an air spotter. This could potentialy be game breaking as the blink stalker timing push won't have to wait for hallucinate or an observer anymore. I believe this makes Temple not only Shattered but also Broken !
This only works on the two lower bases however, hence the "Imbalance" in the thread title. (also because threads with "imbalance" in them seem to get more views :D)
Note that you don't need a blink stalker (a zealot will do, not a probe though) to spot for the first blink so with this trick, you only leave one blink stalker behind.
Edit :
Also works on the top base.
The three o'clock base is the only one immune to this. (thx to s1cknote for the watchtower trick)
Added poll to see what you guys think about this.
Poll: What should Blizzard do about this ?
Fix the cliffs to prevent protoss from doing this (574)
71%
Fix the cliffs to allow blinking in ALL bases (134)
17%
Nothing (55)
7%
Remove the map from the ladder pool (49)
6%
812 total votes
Your vote: What should Blizzard do about this ?
(Vote): Nothing (Vote): Remove the map from the ladder pool (Vote): Fix the cliffs to prevent protoss from doing this (Vote): Fix the cliffs to allow blinking in ALL bases
edit n°2 : The small visible space does not allow pylon warping, only blink can abuse the small vision you get.
edit n°3 : Fixed with 1.3
We've recently made several updates to the 1v1 and 2v2 ladder map pools. A list of those changes is included below, as well as a bit of insight into why they were made.
1v1
(4) Backwater Gulch ramps have been re-positioned so that expanding to your natural is now slightly easier. We believe this will promote more mid/late gameplay on this map. (4) The Shattered Temple has had an issue corrected that was previously allowing stalkers to blink from one main base to another using the center high ground.
(4) Shakuras Plateau has been added back into the 1v1 ladder map pool, but several changes have been made to its design to address previous balance concerns (detailed further below).
(4) Tal'darim Altar has been added, but several adjustments have been made to its original design (also detailed further below).
good find, i had a guy abusing blink stalkers on this map and its pretty difficult to defend as terran as the middle is alot more open now so its easier to break pushes.
oh well, expect blizzard to patch it in no sooner then 2 weeks
That's a pretty neat trick! Hopefully for Blizzard to fix it, they won't need to take it out 'cause this map is pretty awesome, if it isn't for this little trick. And yea, I agree on this being an imbalance since its only for one side.
Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
It says in the OP, you can use your zealot to spot, so you only lose one stalker.
OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
for the first spotter once you have the second stalker on the middle island you can blink the first down and once you have one in his base you can blink the second one down and bring them with you so you aren't losing any
i wonder whether Blizzard will pull this one off the ladder after this. I mean, they kind of pulled Shakuras off the ladder for quite a long time because of a bug. Hope they do the same here!
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
uh come on lets not overreact. this is the kind of accidentall exploit that get discovered only after thousands of games are played. Not like they intended this obviously...
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
this is overreacting. how would they know that you could do that? it's not like they should go around with stalkers to see what they can abuse. as fast as blizz notices this (prolly someone should post it on official sc2 forums so it's easier for them to find it) and they'll move that thing just a tad bit closer to the middle and it's fixed
seriously though, wtf? are you seriously thinking they suck because this is possible? this isn't even a imbalance, it's just a exploit that just needs a fast patching. NO ONE are able to do a 100% perfect map.
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
for the first spotter once you have the second stalker on the middle island you can blink the first down and once you have one in his base you can blink the second one down and bring them with you so you aren't losing any
Yeah I took notice of that, but the opponent should almost immediately be aware that the stalkers are there once blinked up to the base.
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
Seriously... you see one minor bug, something anyone could do by accident, and say blizzard can't make a balanced map. Unbelievable :|
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
this is overreacting. how would they know that you could do that? it's not like they should go around with stalkers to see what they can abuse. as fast as blizz notices this (prolly someone should post it on official sc2 forums so it's easier for them to find it) and they'll move that thing just a tad bit closer to the middle and it's fixed
seriously though, wtf? are you seriously thinking they suck because this is possible? this isn't even a imbalance, it's just a exploit that just needs a fast patching. NO ONE are able to do a 100% perfect map.
Yes, they should be going around with stalkers to see if they can blink around, its their job, they created the map, its a vital part of the game, they need to thoroughly test it out. In professional game creation and design, they hire game testers who's job it is to find a way to crash the game, any exploit possible and the like. They will run game characters into every wall hoping to glitch or crash the game. And that is a lot of work, figuring out where stalkers can and cannot blink is peanuts compared to other QA work done in the gaming world.
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
Seriously... you see one minor bug, something anyone could do by accident, and say blizzard can't make a balanced map. Unbelievable :|
He's probably trying to be ironic or trolling.
It's a simple mistake that could happen to any mapmaker, even GSL or iCCup. Blizzard will probably fix it as soon as they get notified of it.
On March 06 2011 00:07 ilikeLIONZ wrote: hmm, has anyone thought of the possibility that this MIGHT be intentional?
Blizzard isn't that stupid. Like them or not, they at least TRY to maintain a balanced, varied map pool. I can't imagine something like this, where it's not uniformly possible to use this little trick for all parts of the map, as intentional. Blizzard will fix this, whether by tinkering with the map or removing it from the map pool temporarily.
Someone finds a clever way of using something, and everyone bitches and screams imbalance. Why don't you just bear in mind that a Protoss can do that do you and take preventative measures? Did you know a Protoss can partially wall off against Zerg so they can use a Zealot as a temporary wall? OH MY GOD SO IMBALANCED RIGHT? EVERY MAP SHOULD HAVE A WIDE CHOKE TO MAKE IT HARDER TO WALL OFF LIKE THAT. Christ, just stop complaining and learn to deal with it.
On March 06 2011 00:21 branflakes14 wrote: Someone finds a clever way of using something, and everyone bitches and screams imbalance. Why don't you just bear in mind that a Protoss can do that do you and take preventative measures? Did you know a Protoss can partially wall off against Zerg so they can use a Zealot as a temporary wall? OH MY GOD SO IMBALANCED RIGHT? EVERY MAP SHOULD HAVE A WIDE CHOKE TO MAKE IT HARDER TO WALL OFF LIKE THAT. Christ, just stop complaining and learn to deal with it.
I think the main problem people have with this is that not all four mains are vulnerable to this type of Stalker play. It's positional imbalance, and in my opinion, should be fixed.
On March 06 2011 00:21 branflakes14 wrote: Someone finds a clever way of using something, and everyone bitches and screams imbalance. Why don't you just bear in mind that a Protoss can do that do you and take preventative measures? Did you know a Protoss can partially wall off against Zerg so they can use a Zealot as a temporary wall? OH MY GOD SO IMBALANCED RIGHT? EVERY MAP SHOULD HAVE A WIDE CHOKE TO MAKE IT HARDER TO WALL OFF LIKE THAT. Christ, just stop complaining and learn to deal with it.
Oh hey, it's an anti-qqer, even worse than a real one.
Being able to blink up into your opponents base without investing in an observer is overpowered. The only reason people can defend standard blink rushes it is because they have to move up a small ramp. A protoss can force field to deny sight, and a terran will have a large ball of units/bunkers on that ramp waiting for free stalkers that try to come up.
Then, as above said even if you think this is balanced, it should not only work on one part of the map.
I wouldnt say its imbalanced because you can only do on one side as you can actually use the watch tower to blink onto the block at the top side giving you the ability to blink onto either base so you could actually blink into the back of any base on the map without an obs or hallucination.
Some of you guys are way too harsh on Blizzard, they probably didn't do this on purpose and i'm sure that they will fix the map as soon as they notice this trick (just like the old LT blinking spot). Nice find though.
On March 06 2011 01:10 freetgy wrote: it ok for Terrans to abuse cliffs and mapdesign but this is overpowered as hell?
point..
they took like over 1 year to fix the LT cliff imbalance with tankdrops and turrets/thor drops etc, and some people act as this was a game changer while i would expect they'd lose maybe 1 out of 100 games against that blink usage whereas most zergs can tell how often they lost against the typical tank positioning on the old LT.
On March 06 2011 00:48 s1cknote wrote: I wouldnt say its imbalanced because you can only do on one side as you can actually use the watch tower to blink onto the block at the top side giving you the ability to blink onto either base so you could actually blink into the back of any base on the map without an obs or hallucination.
Edited the OP, made a second video thanks to s1cknote's comment showing you can do this trick at the 12 o'clock base too.
The only one which seems immune to this is the 3'oclock base now.
When I started working with the map editor, the first thing I was looking for was a tool that lets you check for some essential ranges within the editor, without having to play the map. Just checking for blink/pylon/siege/creeptumor/vision/tower ranges takes up a ridiculous amount of time.
On March 06 2011 01:31 imbecile wrote: When I started working with the map editor, the first thing I was looking for was a tool that lets you check for some essential ranges within the editor, without having to play the map. Just checking for blink/pylon/siege/creeptumor/vision/tower ranges takes up a ridiculous amount of time.
Comming from an iCCup mapper, its not actually too hard once you get it down. You can press "v" and view XelNaga Tower Range, which you can then edit in 'Data'. Testing for tanks/pylons is sorta a nuisance, but you get used to it.
In any case, I wouldn't excuse Blizzard from checking.
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
Unless your opponent has a turret or patrolling overseer and is actively denying the observer, only to have 20 stalkers in their main instantly one second later. This glitch puts the risk of a big attack on the other player unnecessarily and adds an unfair risk to anyone vs Protoss since they can't move out nearly as safely.
I know blizzard doesn't have the amount of games to test stuff, but to walk around the map with certain units that are known to be abusive of cliffs, ledges etc wouldn't be too hard ? This one is so open and out there also. I wish they would consider recruiting some experienced map makers instead of the ones they have atm. Do they have a "map making" division inside the Starcraft staff ? People dedicated to only making multiplayer maps ? Or are the same people who create the singleplayer map for singleplayer experience, the same people who create multiplayer maps ?
this is overreacting. how would they know that you could do that? it's not like they should go around with stalkers to see what they can abuse.
Well Blizzard hires people to test their games. And going around abusing stalkers/reapers/colossi to make sure the map works as intended is exactly the sort of thing any good game tester ought to be trying. Of course, being the abusive Protoss scrub I am, I fully intend to use this discovery to the max, while it still exists...
On March 06 2011 02:30 Lucius22 wrote: ye sure this is op as fuck and needs balancing asap when terran sends 1 thor/tank to a cliff on LTand ends the game. sure thing
or get like a giganto buff to already stupid MM drops on metal tanks to the new smoke. that is perfectly fine too i guess.
Please stop complaining, people in this thread don't need to read your crying just because you lost a few games on ladder.
Perhaps you could try to learn how to get better instead of venting anger on a forum, where no one wants to read it.
Anyway... @OP, that was a pretty cool find, I don't think there'll be too much of it on the ladder, but it'd be funny if it turned up in a tournament XD. To those saying that an observer is cheaper than 2 stalkers, you forget the price of a robo bay. TvZ, this could be a bit of an issue, especially with zerg static defence at the natural. Its quite abusable, but if the opponent is going blink stalkers, you'd have to prepare for that anyway. I'm not sure how quickly it'll get patched however .
On March 06 2011 02:30 Lucius22 wrote: ye sure this is op as fuck and needs balancing asap when terran sends 1 thor/tank to a cliff on LTand ends the game. sure thing
or get like a giganto buff to already stupid MM drops on metal tanks to the new smoke. that is perfectly fine too i guess.
Please stop complaining, people in this thread don't need to read your crying just because you lost a few games on ladder.
Perhaps you could try to learn how to get better instead of venting anger on a forum, where no one wants to read it.
Anyway... @OP, that was a pretty cool find, I don't think there'll be too much of it on the ladder, but it'd be funny if it turned up in a tournament XD. To those saying that an observer is cheaper than 2 stalkers, you forget the price of a robo bay. TvZ, this could be a bit of an issue, especially with zerg static defence at the natural. Its quite abusable, but if the opponent is going blink stalkers, you'd have to prepare for that anyway. I'm not sure how quickly it'll get patched however .
first off all i didnt lose any ladder games, because i didnt play any ladder lateley.
its just the terran hate. everything they get is fine (tricks as this). what other races get is broken and imbalanced. that is my whole point
On March 06 2011 02:30 Lucius22 wrote: ye sure this is op as fuck and needs balancing asap when terran sends 1 thor/tank to a cliff on LTand ends the game. sure thing
or get like a giganto buff to already stupid MM drops on metal tanks to the new smoke. that is perfectly fine too i guess.
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
It acually leaves no stalkers behind so long as you have at least 2 blink stalkers. One goes to spot the tower while another blinks up. Then the one from the tower goes and blinks up into their base. Then the one spotting from the high ground blinks down and then blinks up into their base. All your stalkers are now in their base, though it does take some time.
hmm who cares about the blink stalkers ? you can warp in there as well can't you ? So its possible to warp in units there as soon as warp in is done x3. Seems to me they underestimated the squeezing in the corner a bit to little.
But blink stalkers ? don't care it would be damn fun to have this viable on a map. But it kind of destroys the ramp advantage in pvp so it would be 4 gate heaven map. Also defending with a bunker would be a bit harder heh.
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
Unless your opponent has a turret or patrolling overseer and is actively denying the observer, only to have 20 stalkers in their main instantly one second later. This glitch puts the risk of a big attack on the other player unnecessarily and adds an unfair risk to anyone vs Protoss since they can't move out nearly as safely.
As far as I know, Observer vision outranges pretty much all units and even turrets, so if you just get vision of the corner, you can blink a stalker up there and then the rest of the army can blink up too, so it doesn't matter much?
it's not like they should go around with stalkers to see what they can abuse
As someone else already stated; Yes, they should be doing that. It's called QA Testing and its vital to the development process. If they're making maps without thoroughly testing each and every possible exploit, then we end up with patent bullshit like this, and the Shakuras Plateau invisible building bug.
On March 06 2011 02:35 Aim Here wrote: Well Blizzard hires people to test their games. And going around abusing stalkers/reapers/colossi to make sure the map works as intended is exactly the sort of thing any good game tester ought to be trying. Of course, being the abusive Protoss scrub I am, I fully intend to use this discovery to the max, while it still exists...
They don't even need human testers.... they could just test it with an algorithm that simulates sight of a ground unit at each height of the map. Besides ramps, the bottom level shouldn't see the top level. They could then look at the highest height and see if there are 'blink spots' elsewhere.
Oh wow this is pretty big Considering I'm a toss player myself, I'll probably try this out a couple times :p It might make PvP a pain in the butt though
I may need to test this later, but is there a way of exploiting this without the use of blink stalkers? I imagine that the watchtower sight might allow for a lower ground pylon to warp in a unit onto the tower structure, which in turn could provide sight to allow for a secondary pylon at the bottom of the cliff to warp in units into the main. This could be a major factor for some PvP 4gate matches.
The matchup that I can see this most affecting is PvP due to the fact that this imbalance makes Blink Stalkers infinitely more useful, which makes Twilight Council tech a more useful tech structure than Robos on this map with these positions. A Protoss going Robo will have to defend from two locations against a Protoss going Blink.
On March 06 2011 03:33 eviltomahawk wrote: I may need to test this later, but is there a way of exploiting this without the use of blink stalkers? I imagine that the watchtower sight might allow for a lower ground pylon to warp in a unit onto the tower structure, which in turn could provide sight to allow for a secondary pylon at the bottom of the cliff to warp in units into the main. This could be a major factor for some PvP 4gate matches.
The matchup that I can see this most affecting is PvP due to the fact that this imbalance makes Blink Stalkers infinitely more useful, which makes Twilight Council tech a more useful tech structure than Robos on this map with these positions. A Protoss going Robo will have to defend from two locations against a Protoss going Blink.
Just tested this, the vision is enough for a stalker to blink, but not enough for a unit to warp in.
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
Seriously? people cant do anything but complain, this isn't something that you can really pin on the map makers. I don't know if this is more of a glitch but the cliff just BARLEY makes the vision. I do acknowledge its a map error but gives the map makers some leniency nobody can make a perfect map they just try.
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
uh come on lets not overreact. this is the kind of accidentall exploit that get discovered only after thousands of games are played. Not like they intended this obviously...
Funny how people always want Blizz to leave in weird unit bugs (such as infestor burrow casting, or keeping void ray charge by switching targets fast enough), but really hate map quirks.
I don't think it's that big of a deal. Yeah, it makes stalkers more powerful on that map, but the only major difference is around 3 stalkers and some amount of time if the protoss player wanted to blink up your cliff anyway. Also, this at the minimum leaves one stalker behind.
Sure, fix it, but I don't really mind it's existence. Now that we know you can do that, just remember not to turtle up the front of your base against P.
On March 06 2011 03:33 eviltomahawk wrote: I may need to test this later, but is there a way of exploiting this without the use of blink stalkers? I imagine that the watchtower sight might allow for a lower ground pylon to warp in a unit onto the tower structure, which in turn could provide sight to allow for a secondary pylon at the bottom of the cliff to warp in units into the main. This could be a major factor for some PvP 4gate matches.
The matchup that I can see this most affecting is PvP due to the fact that this imbalance makes Blink Stalkers infinitely more useful, which makes Twilight Council tech a more useful tech structure than Robos on this map with these positions. A Protoss going Robo will have to defend from two locations against a Protoss going Blink.
Just tested this, the vision is enough for a stalker to blink, but not enough for a unit to warp in.
Thanks for testing this. At least we can sleep in peace knowing that a pure, no-blink 4gate build won't be able to exploit this bug.
Nevertheless, Twilight Council tech is going to still be hugely useful with this bug. A pylon below the cliff and a single Blink Stalker allows for DTs to warp into the main without the use of a Robo or an observer.
to all the people tryiing to excuse blizzard for this, it would be different if this was an isolated incident, but it's not. Crap like this happens regularly with their maps. Pretty sure all the people who are saying this is minor are Protoss players, lol.
Why Blizzard won't hire people from the community to make maps is beyond me. There's obviously a lot of talented mapmakers out there, and i'm sure some of them would do it for free. Just look at their recent release of new maps, and you will see that they just suck at making maps.
Not to mention, they take out their best macro map because "the natural is too easy to hold" and the main base "isnt easy to harass"
This is what happens when you don't mirror your maps well. :/
Never understood why Blizzard refuses to mirror their maps properly - I've made a few maps myself and it only takes a little bit of extra time when building the map from scratch to ensure everything is symmetrical down to the individual tile (whether it be reflected symmetry, rotated symmetry or a mixture).
edit:
How tiny is the spot where a stalker can blink on the main base cliff ?
Maybe a defensive depot or pylon built on this very spot would prevent this tricky blink.
If Stalkers can blink up somewhere, they have vision, thus they can quickly kill that structure from the low ground if it is indeed totally blocking them from blinking up.
Edit: Since you can't warp units in with a pylon, this isn't the biggest problem in the universe. Blink stalkers are a very specific, and not too oftenly used tech.
On March 05 2011 23:38 cocosoft wrote: Great find, but it leaves 2 stalkers behind which effectively costs more than an observer which nullifies any direct imbalance other than map-imbalance.
technically they don't need to go to get robotics, so 1) technically the push can come earlier 2) they don't have to pay for the Robotics facility either technically too......
On March 06 2011 05:56 tQFighting wrote: uh before everyone starts crying and QQ'ing, uh wait too late..
Can't you just build something up in those corners and deny the stalker from getting, and if ur zerg just keep on QQ'in
Great advice for zergs, but I think just taking it out would be better since blink stalkers can abuse enough parts of the map. This really doesn look intended or fair.
On March 06 2011 05:56 tQFighting wrote: uh before everyone starts crying and QQ'ing, uh wait too late..
Can't you just build something up in those corners and deny the stalker from getting, and if ur zerg just keep on QQ'in
Great advice for zergs, but I think just taking it out would be better since blink stalkers can abuse enough parts of the map. This really doesn look intended or fair.
zergs can just put a zergling there to prevent blinking in. Someone should test however if stalkers could shoot that zergling from low ground.
On March 06 2011 04:56 AnAngryDingo wrote: to all the people tryiing to excuse blizzard for this, it would be different if this was an isolated incident, but it's not. Crap like this happens regularly with their maps. Pretty sure all the people who are saying this is minor are Protoss players, lol.
Why Blizzard won't hire people from the community to make maps is beyond me. There's obviously a lot of talented mapmakers out there, and i'm sure some of them would do it for free. Just look at their recent release of new maps, and you will see that they just suck at making maps.
Not to mention, they take out their best macro map because "the natural is too easy to hold" and the main base "isnt easy to harass"
gtfo with these maps blizz
I really think the big issue with using Community Maps would be the legal issues of ownership and money if a Map really takes off. Blizzard said they would like to create fiscal opportunities for mapmakers, but I really think they want to be more then just the observer, and maintain a hands on approach to the development of their e-sport. They have the man power and money to do it this time, so they are. Removal of LAN, taking on Kespa, locking down the custom map scene, all roads lead through Blizzard one way or another.
Having some guy make a map out of their control is a little removed from their goals I think. They would want to "test" the map, compare the map to other maps in the pool, and work out the money issue that may arise for a 3rd party map in the ladder pool. I mean, Custom maps are one thing, but the frequent use and distribution of a ladder map is another I think.
Chance it will be fixed anytime soon: Close to nil.
Chance it will be fixed at all: Slightly less close to nil.
I don't foresee it being that big a problem anyway. Micro'd blink stalkers already fuck up zerg so bad that this little trick in certain positions on one map and only when the protoss feels like he has the opportunity, won't make an appreciable difference.
You know what, I love this. I think it is pretty rad. The only problem is that it is one of those things that isn't immediately obvious, especially to non-Protoss players. I think this sort of thing can add some rad strategical stuff when both players know about it but if both guys don't know about it then it is just a trick and kind of lame.
So...good for professional play, bad for ladder, I guess. That's my opinion.
On March 06 2011 04:56 AnAngryDingo wrote: to all the people tryiing to excuse blizzard for this, it would be different if this was an isolated incident, but it's not. Crap like this happens regularly with their maps. Pretty sure all the people who are saying this is minor are Protoss players, lol.
Why Blizzard won't hire people from the community to make maps is beyond me. There's obviously a lot of talented mapmakers out there, and i'm sure some of them would do it for free. Just look at their recent release of new maps, and you will see that they just suck at making maps.
Not to mention, they take out their best macro map because "the natural is too easy to hold" and the main base "isnt easy to harass"
gtfo with these maps blizz
I really think the big issue with using Community Maps would be the legal issues of ownership and money if a Map really takes off. Blizzard said they would like to create fiscal opportunities for mapmakers, but I really think they want to be more then just the observer, and maintain a hands on approach to the development of their e-sport. They have the man power and money to do it this time, so they are. Removal of LAN, taking on Kespa, locking down the custom map scene, all roads lead through Blizzard one way or another.
Having some guy make a map out of their control is a little removed from their goals I think. They would want to "test" the map, compare the map to other maps in the pool, and work out the money issue that may arise for a 3rd party map in the ladder pool. I mean, Custom maps are one thing, but the frequent use and distribution of a ladder map is another I think.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong though, but since the SC2 Editor is owned by Blizzard Entertainment (and all maps are hosted on battle.net), therefore aren't all maps created by users property of Blizzard Entertainment (i.e. There are no legal issues.)? Of course there's the ethical issue of stealing someone else's work, but couldn't they ask for permission and discuss the development, updates and versions with the author before they are released. The author would submit an update of the map and Blizzard would decide whether or not to upgrade the custom ladder map with the newer version as an example.
But back on topic, I do think this needs to be fixed. One of the advantages of having air control is to be able to gain vision up cliffs. This "trick" totally defeats the purpose of having sight for blink stalkers and seems like a rather strong advantage for protoss.
I guess this should be fixed. I miss however, back when stalkers were able to blink onto islands in LT and i think they should bring that type of blink back. But yeah, this right here is a map problem.
Think of how many problems since beta would have been solved if they just allowed symmetry-generation in the map editor and blizzard used it in their maps....
so many positional imbalances in almost every single blizz map
Why do people keep saying to put something there, obviously if they could blink there they can see that spot, so whatever would be "blocking" the blink can be shot at since there is vision to it.
On March 06 2011 07:34 BetterFasterStronger wrote: Yeah remove this! It rewards creativity. Thats dumb! I don't get why this needs to be removed?
Because it won't be used for creativity, it would be used for 1 base all ins.
A 1 base all in can't be creative? And don't forget that a Council + Blink isn't cheap and takes about 2 minutes in total if Chrono Boosted 100%. That combined with him making nothing but Stalkers should be more than enough notice for you to pump out Immortals/Speedlings/Roaches/Marauders or whatever you like.
On March 06 2011 06:35 Wolf wrote: Ruining PvP even more T_T
How? Blink Stalkers aren't exactly ruling PvP. At the moment, it seems to be either 4gate or fast Colossus, with other builds just there for flavour.
I don't reckon this will affect many games at all. Of course, it is bad that the map is not symmetrical. But it isn't that big a deal. Blizzard will fix it.
The issue isn't that blinking into a base is imba-- though maybe it is... the issue is you can't blink into every base. That's extremely seriously imbalanced. It means that because the map isn't perfectly symmetrical, you could have a PvP where one protoss player has geographical access to this while the other doesn't, and that's a HUGE issue. I'm sure this will be addressed in a timely fashion by Blizzard.
On March 06 2011 07:34 BetterFasterStronger wrote: Yeah remove this! It rewards creativity. Thats dumb! I don't get why this needs to be removed?
The main issue is the positional imbalance. 3 of the bases are vulnerable to blink stalkers while the 3oclock base isnt. The main issue, then, is the positional imbalance.
This reminds me of that old trick on Lost Temple where you could blink to the other close-air base (back when stalkers could blink over unpassable terrain). Those were the days...
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
well technically there is nothing wrong about this.
You get vision of the high ground in the middle with one unit, blink up with another, then blink in to the main. Doing it with the Xel'naga tower is no different.....
They should probably fix the map so you can't get vision up to the middle high ground from the nearby main or that you can get into every main using the trick, but so long as you can get vision..... its not a bug and not broken..... its working as intended.
I thought I was gonna be shown getting to the high ground without any vision, but thats not the case. You could do similar tricks on Kulas Ravine with the centre tower allowing you to blink up to the normally rock blocked high grounds and take the other towers.
I have nothing against a race having a nice trick on a particular map as long as it is consistently predictable when the map is selected. As zerg I didn't care if Terran had an advantage on LT, I just hated the fact that Metalopolis could be zerg-friendly OR impossible to win based off the random spawn, so map selection in tournaments was a ridiculous dice roll.
This might sound dumb as hell, but the space where the stalker can blink into your base looks extreme small, wouldn't a pylon/depot block it? I don't think you would phase through, you would rather end up on the low ground in front of it......need to go trying right now
Zerg cant block the ramp anyway and the only danger then would be a free building for the Protoss, but the second he starts shooting up you can line troops along the cliff with him not having vision, that should give him hell for a bit.
On March 06 2011 20:57 Ojahh wrote: This might sound dumb as hell, but the space where the stalker can blink into your base looks extreme small, wouldn't a pylon/depot block it? I don't think you would phase through, you would rather end up on the low ground in front of it......need to go trying right now
Zerg cant block the ramp anyway and the only danger then would be a free building for the Protoss, but the second he starts shooting up you can line troops along the cliff with him not having vision, that should give him hell for a bit.
You then have to rebuild the building. Which protoss once again snipes. While the stalkers move to the front and then back again. Almost the same thing as on blistering sands.
On March 05 2011 23:32 MisterD wrote: there is a warcraft 3 campaign map where you have to do this all around the map to collect all parts of a hidden item.. x.X sooo annoying
If by annoying you mean, a really awesome map - then yep, I remember it well!
In any event, blizz will fix it. Enjoy it while it lasts i suppose. Reminds me of when tyler used the blink "bug" on kulas and shocked the announcers .
On March 05 2011 23:44 kickinhead wrote: OMG - Blizzard really can't make balanced Maps at all, this is really very annoying... Blinkstalkers blinking in your base without Obs or halluzinated phoenix is indeed a big problem, especially with the positional imbalances, so that even in a mirrormatch, things get out of balance. -.-°
well technically there is nothing wrong about this.
You get vision of the high ground in the middle with one unit, blink up with another, then blink in to the main. Doing it with the Xel'naga tower is no different.....
They should probably fix the map so you can't get vision up to the middle high ground from the nearby main or that you can get into every main using the trick, but so long as you can get vision..... its not a bug and not broken..... its working as intended.
I thought I was gonna be shown getting to the high ground without any vision, but thats not the case. You could do similar tricks on Kulas Ravine with the centre tower allowing you to blink up to the normally rock blocked high grounds and take the other towers.
It's not a bug in the game mechanics. It's a bug in the map. They didn't intend for you to be able to blink into one base but not another. If they did, that would be silly, and as much as we'd like to think blizzard is just a bunch of bumbling clowns riding unicycles in an office, we all know they're smarter than that.
So as has been said, it is a bug, but it will be fixed. It's not a complicated fix at all. It's no big deal.
should be the easiest fix in the world. but then again blizzard took ages to fix the scrap station creep tumor imbalance, so god knows how many stalkers i'll have to endure popping into my base unannounced before they do fix it
This makes the only map I actually liked from the new pool a shit show to play on since this is one I'd normally bunker off natural to deny access.....blah! Blizzard, fix your maps!!!
On March 09 2011 02:09 universalwill wrote: should be the easiest fix in the world. but then again blizzard took ages to fix the scrap station creep tumor imbalance, so god knows how many stalkers i'll have to endure popping into my base unannounced before they do fix it
They fixed scrap station?
What about the destructible rocks on both sides needing a different number of pylons to wall off, or one of the positions (Can't remember which) being hell to wall off at the natural compared to the other?
On March 09 2011 02:09 universalwill wrote: should be the easiest fix in the world. but then again blizzard took ages to fix the scrap station creep tumor imbalance, so god knows how many stalkers i'll have to endure popping into my base unannounced before they do fix it
On March 09 2011 13:10 Zethiel wrote: woah, I can't believe that blizzard dosent overtest their maps before releasing them, no need to be bright to find this, and yet the map is out...
What does overtest even mean? They test them but few guys testing the maps several times won't provide as much data as the whole community playing on them one day. People found the problem ... few days later blizzard fixed it. It's as good as it gets so I don't really see why people are still complaining.
Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I would like to point out that as of this morning the blink trick still works. I did a map vs a very easy AI just to test it and sure enough it still works.
On March 11 2011 08:37 LeglessPuppy wrote: Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I would like to point out that as of this morning the blink trick still works. I did a map vs a very easy AI just to test it and sure enough it still works.
That would be why, a couple people have said that it was fixed on the NA and EU servers (would be 5 days ago now). I just figured I would test to see if it was truly patched and found it wasn't.
Am I the only one who thinks it's sad that the majority here voted "take it out" straight away? That's pretty much the plotline for SC2 patching so far too. They're taking the wrong direction there. Anything cool or "imba"? Take it out. BW was a game of imbalances countering out themselves... Now I know that not everyone wants this to become like BW, but wouldn't you atleast want it to become as balanced as it? -.-v
On March 06 2011 14:25 Tump wrote: Nice find, but definitely will be removed, just like when Tyler famously abused the Kulas blink bug.
90% sure that was nazgul v idra
Tyler was the first one to do it as he was the one who discovered you could blink past rocks. Nazgul just used a blink stalker build that the TL team had developed specifically to kill Idra.
We've recently made several updates to the 1v1 and 2v2 ladder map pools. A list of those changes is included below, as well as a bit of insight into why they were made.
1v1
(4) Backwater Gulch ramps have been re-positioned so that expanding to your natural is now slightly easier. We believe this will promote more mid/late gameplay on this map. (4) The Shattered Temple has had an issue corrected that was previously allowing stalkers to blink from one main base to another using the center high ground.
(4) Shakuras Plateau has been added back into the 1v1 ladder map pool, but several changes have been made to its design to address previous balance concerns (detailed further below).
(4) Tal'darim Altar has been added, but several adjustments have been made to its original design (also detailed further below).
On March 11 2011 08:49 iNfeRnaL wrote: Am I the only one who thinks it's sad that the majority here voted "take it out" straight away? That's pretty much the plotline for SC2 patching so far too. They're taking the wrong direction there. Anything cool or "imba"? Take it out. BW was a game of imbalances countering out themselves... Now I know that not everyone wants this to become like BW, but wouldn't you atleast want it to become as balanced as it? -.-v
On March 06 2011 14:25 Tump wrote: Nice find, but definitely will be removed, just like when Tyler famously abused the Kulas blink bug.
90% sure that was nazgul v idra
Tyler was the first one to do it as he was the one who discovered you could blink past rocks. Nazgul just used a blink stalker build that the TL team had developed specifically to kill Idra.
I think 'balanced' or 'symmetrical' maps are overrated. I mean, the only time where it really has any benefit is in a mirror match anyway. The races are symmetrical, why not throw symmetry out of the window anyway? Does it really matter that a map is pseudo-symmetrical if it isn't a mirror match?
I mean, come on, 'radial symmetry' is also acceptable, but on Tal'darim or Terminus or Delta or Crevasse, if you don't spawn cross it's basically the same as 'completely not symmetrical in any way' and no one is bothered by that.
Also, these kind of things that Blizzard often doesn't consider just shows how much of an illusion of balance this 'pseudo-symmetry' they put in maps give. Slight imbalances are fine, radially symmetric maps already show that maps needn't be symmetric to provide for a great game. In Brood War it was even more absurd how that 2D pseudo-symmetry panned out.
Just remove symmetry completely really, it only adds fairness in a mirror match, and it would be cool if even mirror matches were assymetrical, as long as it's reasonably balanced I don't really care for both ends of the map to be completely different geographically.
EPT
