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MLG Format Explanation - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
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branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
February 27 2011 19:24 GMT
#121
I think I can hear Occam turning in his grave.
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
February 27 2011 19:28 GMT
#122
Awesome, it's much more clearer now!
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
February 27 2011 19:59 GMT
#123
On February 27 2011 21:30 fxSolo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2011 18:07 avilo wrote:
Seeding is perfectly acceptable. Auto-placing players into a bracket is not. Do you see legitimate sports doing this ever? Roget federer and Nadal are not auto-placed into the semi finals of each grand slam.


But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.
Sup
PetRockSteve
Profile Joined February 2011
United States70 Posts
February 27 2011 20:37 GMT
#124
On February 28 2011 04:20 Agh wrote:
probably been said or mentioned already in the thread, but is the plan to filter the 4 pools in a straight like linear type fashion? where all of the a placements are at the top, b next, etc? seems kind of dumb since the same matches will occur.


They will be mixing it up. The players who finished 2-5 in a group will be in different parts of the bracket.
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
February 27 2011 20:39 GMT
#125
OK, I fixed the images so Group A players don't all play each other.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
February 27 2011 20:41 GMT
#126
On February 28 2011 04:59 avilo wrote:
But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.[/QUOTE]
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
February 27 2011 20:42 GMT
#127
On February 28 2011 04:59 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2011 21:30 fxSolo wrote:
On February 27 2011 18:07 avilo wrote:
Seeding is perfectly acceptable. Auto-placing players into a bracket is not. Do you see legitimate sports doing this ever? Roget federer and Nadal are not auto-placed into the semi finals of each grand slam.


But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.


Uh did you read Motbob's response to you? He sort of covered this, the players who get seeded get seeded because they kicked ass last year at MLG, thus they earned it.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
Hrrrrm
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2081 Posts
February 27 2011 20:43 GMT
#128
On February 28 2011 05:39 motbob wrote:
OK, I fixed the images so Group A players don't all play each other.


Just one more thing that needs fixing and that's the winner's bracket. Group A 1st plays Group D 1st and Group C 1st plays Group B 1st.
alot = a lot (TWO WORDS)
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 20:44:57
February 27 2011 20:44 GMT
#129
On February 28 2011 05:41 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2011 04:59 avilo wrote:
But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.



Your problem with this format is beside the point because MLG still needs to fit this event within 3 days and ahem well players dont show up on time for day 1 ever. So they cannot go for a format that takes excess amounts of time. So in order to still fit the event within 3 days you have the current seeding of layers into the ro16 etc etc. The new format is designed to show you top level games on the stream from the start of the event until the end. Is it harder for players who are in the open bracket? Yes, the only way to fix that is to run the open bracket on a different weekend altogether or online and that kills the entire point of it being a live event.

MLG is working within a rather strict time frame so allowances had to be made. That being said the new format is much much better than the previous one.
FarbrorAbavna
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden4856 Posts
February 27 2011 20:47 GMT
#130
great break down of how it works, I honestly couldnt care what so ever about the system because of how it was explained but this did the trick. much appreciated.
Do you really want chat rooms?
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
February 27 2011 20:48 GMT
#131
On February 28 2011 04:59 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2011 21:30 fxSolo wrote:
On February 27 2011 18:07 avilo wrote:
Seeding is perfectly acceptable. Auto-placing players into a bracket is not. Do you see legitimate sports doing this ever? Roget federer and Nadal are not auto-placed into the semi finals of each grand slam.


But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.

Compared to the OSL, MSL and GSL, MLG's format is very kind to unseeded players.

Read this:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OSL#Tournament_Format

That's the best SC league in the history of the world and it has a ton of seeding past a ton of rounds for its seeded players. Some of the best players have been unable to advance from its open tournament (which isn't even truly open to everyone -- there is yet another layer of qualification via progamer licensing). It can be really difficult to penetrate but it has worked great for years.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
UberThing
Profile Joined April 2010
Great Britain410 Posts
February 27 2011 20:55 GMT
#132
Thanks bob
Wag1
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
February 27 2011 20:56 GMT
#133
Thanks for posting this, cleared up the format for me a lot.
envee
Profile Joined February 2010
United States27 Posts
February 27 2011 20:58 GMT
#134
Wow seriously detailed and nice visual aids ^^ Thanks!
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 21:03:39
February 27 2011 21:03 GMT
#135
would love to see the hour by hour match schedule for this. if it's as jam packed as it seems to be, how would they deal with something as guaranteed as bnet going down or the internets dying? Cause u know it will.
odder
Profile Joined April 2010
United States405 Posts
February 27 2011 21:06 GMT
#136
On February 28 2011 06:03 zev318 wrote:
would love to see the hour by hour match schedule for this. if it's as jam packed as it seems to be, how would they deal with something as guaranteed as bnet going down or the internets dying? Cause u know it will.


http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/16#event_33_schedule
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
February 27 2011 21:09 GMT
#137
On February 28 2011 05:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2011 04:59 avilo wrote:
On February 27 2011 21:30 fxSolo wrote:
On February 27 2011 18:07 avilo wrote:
Seeding is perfectly acceptable. Auto-placing players into a bracket is not. Do you see legitimate sports doing this ever? Roget federer and Nadal are not auto-placed into the semi finals of each grand slam.


But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.

Compared to the OSL, MSL and GSL, MLG's format is very kind to unseeded players.

Read this:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OSL#Tournament_Format

Come on, that's still not an argument for why it's good.
Next MLG you need to lose 5 Bo3 to be eliminated, iNcontrol can only lose 2 (unless he doesn't lose any in the open bracket). I think that disparity is way too big.
Midj
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada253 Posts
February 27 2011 21:09 GMT
#138
So the finals and semis are also going to be BO3 then?
I enjoy watching more than playing.
Hectic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia159 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 21:12:33
February 27 2011 21:11 GMT
#139
any chance you can write a post like that on how to find the vods?

it will probably be even longer...
Only if you beleive.
Hrrrrm
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2081 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 21:16:33
February 27 2011 21:13 GMT
#140
On February 28 2011 05:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2011 04:59 avilo wrote:
On February 27 2011 21:30 fxSolo wrote:
On February 27 2011 18:07 avilo wrote:
Seeding is perfectly acceptable. Auto-placing players into a bracket is not. Do you see legitimate sports doing this ever? Roget federer and Nadal are not auto-placed into the semi finals of each grand slam.


But Nadal and Federer ARE 32 of the seeded that are given automatic entry into the Grand Slams' 128 man bracket, along with a few other top ranked players. Other athletes have to qualify just to get into the tournament itself.

If you draw a parallel to it, just imagine MLG pool play/championship bracket as the that final 128 man Grand Slam roster, and the Open championship the qualification to get into the "Grand Slam," which would be our pool play and championship bracket. Nadal and Federer don't have to qualify for every Grand Slam they enter, they're given a spot automatically. It's not because they are celebrities, it's because through their system they've proven their top caliber and deserve the spots.

With a clearly defined system deciding the top 16 seed for these events, it rewards performance the same as tennis rewards top ranked players with automatic berths.


Which is exactly what I said. It's perfectly acceptable to seed these players in a tournament. What is not acceptable is automatically placing them into the round of 16 and semi finals when there are a vast amount of competitors looking to make their name and fame.

You drew an incorrect parallel to try to support your point. They earned their SEEDS. They did not get auto-placed into the semi-finals or ro16 like these tournaments are doing. The seeding in legitimate competitions reward players that have shown they can compete and beat good players already.

What it does not do is automatically assume these players will win every game they play for the rest of their lives into the round of 16/semi-finals.

And even in your parallel, Tennis uses lots, lots of qualifiers and "wild cards" to allow players that have shown they can compete with the best entry into these events. Players that already have a ranking can get into the grand slams, and players that have none can qualify through a qualifier. But also a wild card can be given to a player that has shown they can compete with the best, etc.

In no way do seeds = automatically placeing competitors further in the bracket. What it does is give them an easier bracket, and as a matter of fact, now that I think about it and that you bring it up, and that these tournaments bring it up, Roger Federer, Nadal, etc etc. in fact do a lot of times bash players that can be considered "noobs" in the first round or two.

They work their way through the draw, they aren't ordained further in the draw by the gods.

Compared to the OSL, MSL and GSL, MLG's format is very kind to unseeded players.

Read this:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OSL#Tournament_Format

That's the best SC league in the history of the world and it has a ton of seeding past a ton of rounds for its seeded players. Some of the best players have been unable to advance from its open tournament (which isn't even truly open to everyone -- there is yet another layer of qualification via progamer licensing). It can be really difficult to penetrate but it has worked great for years.


No doubt that's it difficult but there comes a time when EVERYONE is placed on the same footing to the top seeds. In all of those tournaments I don't see where a seed is a guaranteed placement of position that the other non-seeds can't equally accomplish. In MLG only the non-seeds can finish 32nd in the final stage, not even those in pool play can finish that low, they are guaranteed minimum 24th.

In the OSL once people reach the group stage EVERYONE is on the same footing and they move forward. You don't have the top 4 seeds going directly to the semi-finals like in MLG. Can you tell me where this same footing even occurs in the championship bracket?(The four that make it into pool play isn't everyone on the same footing) Because to my eyes it never exists.
alot = a lot (TWO WORDS)
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