This thread is about discussing the interview, not about judging people who contribute way more to the community than you. If you have a valid criticism, make it, but if you're going to spew hate you will get banned.
For those who have missed it: TotalBiscuit has given a very interesting one hour audio interview to SC2Reddit, it can be found at http://blip.tv/file/4803712 (sadly, no audio only (yet))
Audio Only (thanks to cursedfeanor)
On March 01 2011 06:53 CursedFeanor wrote: For convenience, I've extracted the audio track and converted it to a 128kbps mp3 file to be able to listen to this interview in the car tomorrow! I suppose this could be useful to others as well so I share it with you guys (54 MB file) : SCreddit - TotalBiscuitInterview.mp3 enjoy!
00:00 - Introduction 02:00 - eSports and SCReddit from an investors perspective 05:50 - The brand CynicalBrit.com 07:30 - State of the Game controversy and his business and SC2 casting state 16:00 - His oppinion on and love for starcraft 18:50 - eSports developement and growth potential 22:30 - NASL and the Jinro vs Idra Showmatch production 32:45 - Casting skills, experience and improvement 38:00 - Play-by-play-style casting and his gaming background 41:30 - Plans on co-casting 44:50 - Live events in near future 46:30 - UK eSports scene 50:45 - Future projects 54:00 - Wrapping up
He covers later drama regarding his SC2 casters career and the developement around State of the Game, his general company model, his oppinion on SC2 and esports in general, and NASL as far as I listened, and its only halfway through. Other topics covered are his style of casting and why he casts how he casts, his oppinion to some other casters, and the outview of co-casting with other casters that are more analytical compared to him being play-by-play. He also adresses the state of esports in United Kingdom.
Worth listening as he is as most know very well worded and the questions are interesting.
In Spoiler: Statements of TotalBiscuit in this thread, regarding different issues that came up while the discussion, for the sake of information + Show Spoiler +
Yes we are missing out on someone who knew as much about Starcraft as some random person that could be pulled off the street when he started casting.
Not an insult, just he didn't exist in the community of Starcraft until he saw potential dollar signs in SC2, and less potential dollar signs in WoW.
This is nonsensical. I started casting SC2 when the beta came out, while I was working at a Financial Advisory, almost 6 months before I got a Youtube partnership. During this time my output of WoW-themed content vastly increased. People seem to forget this, probably a result of making assumptions based on incomplete or false information.
About his particular casting style and play-by-play versus analytical commentary... + Show Spoiler +
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
About how he sees his audience within the SC2 community... + Show Spoiler +
On February 27 2011 09:44 billyX333 wrote: maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
You're implying that Teamliquid is my primary demographic. It's not, I don't market towards the more hardcore players, I do the opposite, I market towards newer/casual/non-players in the hope it will bring them further into the community.
The 40 year old guy who hated RTS until he watched my videos then took the plunge, bought SC2 after never playing an RTS since Dune 2 and started his career in bronze league, is the guy I'm interested in (this is a true story). I make this very clear in my SHOUTcraft thread, it's worth a read if you're interested in my targetted demographic and what I'm trying to actually do.
Brood War is not really of any relevance to what I do. I'm not sure why people would find that offensive. I am also a big WoW coveragererer, I don't really give a shit about Warcraft 3. Same thing?
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Well I listened to the first 15 minutes and it was just him trying to save face and defend himself the entire time.
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Well I listened to the first 15 minutes and it was just him trying to save face and defend himself the entire time.
But what TB is mostly true. JP did made a mistake by not finding out the fact.
This is quite an interesting interview. TB is sounding like a father showing moderation and prudence to a bunch of kids. He sounds like a very serious and somewhat business knowledgeable guy.
He also does a nice critic comment about Idra vs Jinro showmatch without being aggressive or bashing anyone, that's pretty nice. He could be a very influential figure for SC2, particularly if he can manage to grow SC2 into his HUGE viewership, which as he says is like 90% composed of WoW/other games' communities.
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
This is going to be interesting, hoping it'll be less interview and more talking though. Considering the length I have no doubts it is, as said, this'll be interesting.
TB seems like a twat, the more I hear from him the less I like him. He makes it seem like he cares ohh soo much about e-sport community, when in fact the "business" side of it is so much more important. This is human, so no harm there. Except that ppl have such a fucking hard time to admit it, dont stroll around and act like you are some saviour of e-sports..
Also, his "humour" is just not funny. To then go on this shit and just make excuses about stuff is just lame. If he is so sure that IdrA and INcontroL is trolling, why does he even fucking bother then? I mean come on TB, you are a grown man, leave it be if it doesnt get to you.
The fact that you make an hour long apology is just confirming that the trolling is successful. And this found love of SC? Where did this come from? Did you do anything in BW at all? Or are u just jumping on the train now that the cash starts rolling into SC2?
And lets face it, you praise Husky cuz he is your mate, because we both know he is a utter shitty caster, everyone else knows it aswell.
On February 27 2011 02:29 Rylaji wrote: TB seems like a twat, the more I hear from him the less I like him. He makes it seem like he cares ohh soo much about e-sport community, when in fact the "business" side of it is so much more important. This is human, so no harm there. Except that ppl have such a fucking hard time to admit it, dont stroll around and act like you are some saviour of e-sports..
Also, his "humour" is just not funny. To then go on this shit and just make excuses about stuff is just lame. If he is so sure that IdrA and INcontroL is trolling, why does he even fucking bother then? I mean come on TB, you are a grown man, leave it be if it doesnt get to you.
The fact that you make an hour long apology is just confirming that the trolling is successful. And this found love of SC? Where did this come from? Did you do anything in BW at all? Or are u just jumping on the train now that the cash starts rolling into SC2?
And lets face it, you praise Husky cuz he is your mate, because we both know he is a utter shitty caster, everyone else knows it aswell.
Hmmm.. so much failhate in this post. He openly admits he sees the business side of it, and also talks about how SC2 time is actually not a very good thing for him considering the vast majority of his viewership does not come from SC2 (remember that compared to wow's player base, SC2 is a niche game).
Asking if he did any BW at all just confirms you didn't listen to the interview lol.
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Yes we are missing out on someone who knew as much about Starcraft as some random person that could be pulled off the street when he started casting.
Not an insult, just he didn't exist in the community of Starcraft until he saw potential dollar signs in SC2, and less potential dollar signs in WoW. There's no problem with that, he has a very professional voice, is very creative, and is good at what he does for the most part. He is a professional, he went where the viewers went. But most people have a problem with that, there are casters who have been around in Starcraft when there was no point other than sacrificing your own time for free for something you love, and there are brand new casters who came in because they saw potentially being the next husky or HD. Aka $$$. Now they aren't rich, just they are doing something they like to do (talk about games), and getting paid for it.
EDIT: Just so you know, I listened to total biscuit back in the day on warcraft radio when he first started out. I like his work quite a bit.
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Yes we are missing out on someone who knew as much about Starcraft as some random person that could be pulled off the street when he started casting.
Not an insult, just he didn't exist in Starcraft until he saw potential dollar signs in SC2, and less potential dollar signs in WoW. There's no problem with that, he has a very professional voice, is very creative, and is good at what he does for the most part. He is a professional, he went where the viewers went. But most people have a problem with that, there are casters who have been around in Starcraft when there was no point other than sacrificing your own time for free for something you love, and there are brand new casters who came in because they saw potentially being the next husky or HD. Aka $$$. Now they aren't rich, just they are doing something they like to do (talk about games), and getting paid for it.
EDIT: Just so you know, I listened to total biscuit back in the day on warcraft radio when he first started out. I like his work quite a bit.
How is it different than gamers who switched from other games because the money's in SC2, even if they like the game less.
The quality of his casts is great and he's a professional guy who is active in the community. Great interview.
I don't really care about his business stuff, if he can make a living from it go him! I just can't stand to listen to him. I don't understand how anyone likes this kind of commentary, but Husky and HD have a ton of fans as well so I guess it's the same fans. I just prefer some more intelligent casting, you can see for yourself what's happening on the screen.
I've listened to know Blue Plz! (TB's podcast) since it started, he takes himself very seriously nowadays because he cares guys. Like not a hobby, his livelyhood comes from video content as he mentions at the start. The fact that Geoff and JP called him out without really knowing anything beyond rumours is pretty sad and well, typical Geoff. TB is the sort that is constantly stressed because people do call him out for his insecurities. I like and love both SOTG/Geoff but honestly I think this is the sort of stupidity that gives Geoff, NASL and the TL/SOTG crowd a bad name. I know Incontrol apologised after several bashings but clearly TB didn't take it as a joke I just don't understand why Incontrol wasn't mature enough to realise the joke got old as soon as TB was genuinely offended.
whether incontrol wants to believe this or not is his prerogative but if hes starting a tournament with that big of a prize pool that wants television coverage to eventually rival korean e-sports down the line then he is going to need to start carrying himself in a more professional and less trollish manner in "public". e-sports looks a lot more viable to big sponsors when you have professional casters showing up in suits with a professional demeanor in a casting studio that looks like ESPN sportscenter. if these "big names" in the community start to get more professional about things then maybe the rest of the country will take it a bit more serious when they see it for the first time.
i dont understand the hate for TB. i played broodwar at a fairly good level for 7-8 years before SC2 and play sc2 at a fairly good masters level without many games and I enjoy him more than any other caster by far. i don't need someone to tell me every little thing that is going on because I know what is going on. his excitement is great and his british accent makes me feel like im watching a european soccer match. if you want to team him up with someone like day9 that knows a lot about the game maybe it would be perfect for a big event. he is professional, admits he doesnt know the most about the game, is passionate and plays to his strengths very very well. he is a play by play guy like he says and people need accept him for what he is. he is not trying to be a caster with in-depth knowledge and not everyone is even in professional sports. Joe Buck does multiple sports and barely knows shit about any of them yet he has analysts with him that take it over when it is time to analyze.
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
Obvious you have not gone around then, i been to england 3 times and i have heard many accents even more unreal than TB.
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
Obvious you have not gone around then, i been to england 3 times and i have heard many accents even more unreal than TB.
I think it's because he accent is manufactured: he said plenty of times that's he's spent a lot of time refining his broadcasting voice from his natural speaking voice (Geordie accent I think?), so it'll sound strange because it's not really a dialect you'd find elsewhere but still sounds familiar.
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Yes we are missing out on someone who knew as much about Starcraft as some random person that could be pulled off the street when he started casting.
Not an insult, just he didn't exist in the community of Starcraft until he saw potential dollar signs in SC2, and less potential dollar signs in WoW.
This is nonsensical. I started casting SC2 when the beta came out, while I was working at a Financial Advisory, almost 6 months before I got a Youtube partnership. During this time my output of WoW-themed content vastly increased. People seem to forget this, probably a result of making assumptions based on incomplete or false information.
Great interview, really illuminates the caster under the hats. It is nice hearing TB talk in a very level-headed fashion about the more practical side of ESports.
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
Obvious you have not gone around then, i been to england 3 times and i have heard many accents even more unreal than TB.
I think it's because he accent is manufactured: he said plenty of times that's he's spent a lot of time refining his broadcasting voice from his natural speaking voice (Geordie accent I think?), so it'll sound strange because it's not really a dialect you'd find elsewhere but still sounds familiar.
Yeah this is my problem with it too, it sounds like an american comedian's impression of a british person, combine that with the liberal use of stereotypical 'british' language that no one actually uses and it becomes incredibly irritating as an actual english person. It's the general theme of his commentary being disingenuous at every point that irritates me and probably a lot of others. I actually think a geordie commentator would be hilarious however, so if TB wants to switch to being real and worked on his game knowledge instead of intentionally disregarding it, i'd probably be a big fan.
Good interview... cheers to the guys at reddit, and TB of course, for this.
I enjoyed getting a little bit of insight into what it is like trying to make a living as an electronic content provider. I think it's difficult for some people who are deeply embedded in the starcraft scene today to step back and take a wider view on the perception of e-sports as a whole; so it was nice to get a realistic and intelligent view on our little corner of the entertainment industry, and how it might evolve in the future.
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Well I listened to the first 15 minutes and it was just him trying to save face and defend himself the entire time.
There's nothing for him to save.. He wasn't the one making shit up.
Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
i am kind of confused as to how tb is so popular. i'm not trying to be mean here, but he offers next to zero insight into anything, wow included. do people really need a guy screaming through their headset about nothing in particular to make things exciting? i'm not trying to have a go at him or anything, its a great thing that he does so well, but he kinda ruins the games he commentates - for me at least.
There was a morrow v kiwi (i think it was kiwi, at least) game a while back that was pretty epic. i dont know about anyone else but i felt i had to watch that on mute, tb seems so obnoxious to me when hes trying to cast.
He also adresses the state of esports in United Kingdom.
We have esports here? :O
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
yesyesyesyesyes
This.
TB is great and all, but I just dont understand the accent.
I hear a bit of geordie/northern in there, but apart from that it is just nothing like any other natural accent we have here - its like the gunrun's accent is to an american one I guess. I find it really amusing when people go on about how they love TB's english accent ^^
On February 27 2011 01:24 SovSov wrote: I can't take TotalBiscuit's voice seriously after Incontrol did a parody of him.
Congratulations, you are now missing out on entertaining content from someone devoted to growth of Esports and the SC2 community because someone did a australian accent.
on topic, this interview is very interesting and thank you for bringing it to our attention
Yes we are missing out on someone who knew as much about Starcraft as some random person that could be pulled off the street when he started casting.
Not an insult, just he didn't exist in the community of Starcraft until he saw potential dollar signs in SC2, and less potential dollar signs in WoW.
This is nonsensical. I started casting SC2 when the beta came out, while I was working at a Financial Advisory, almost 6 months before I got a Youtube partnership. During this time my output of WoW-themed content vastly increased. People seem to forget this, probably a result of making assumptions based on incomplete or false information.
No TB! You do this for the money. So much money in casting SC2 it's unreal!
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
Obvious you have not gone around then, i been to england 3 times and i have heard many accents even more unreal than TB.
Lol, I'm sure you heard a lot more British accents in that time than someone that lives there :/
He's right, very few people in the UK have such a clipped nasal accent. It's associated with men in Jane Austen novels.
I like tb's cast of sc games. He's very entertaining, and I wish he would actually cast more. As far as the whole sotg thing, they seem to just bash other players/casters for good portion of the shows but as tb said that's kind of what sotg is about, frat house type environment so he shouldn't take all that is said to seriously i guess.
Got nothing but respect for this guy despite what the community has to say about him. He's very dedicated in what he does and he probably have had a huge impact in the growth of Esports and sc2. He may not be the most experineced sc2 caster but he is one of the funniest and most entertaining casters out there. Alot of players watch sc2 for entertainment instead of learning and this guy offers that.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
Obvious you have not gone around then, i been to england 3 times and i have heard many accents even more unreal than TB.
I think it's because he accent is manufactured: he said plenty of times that's he's spent a lot of time refining his broadcasting voice from his natural speaking voice (Geordie accent I think?), so it'll sound strange because it's not really a dialect you'd find elsewhere but still sounds familiar.
Yeah this is my problem with it too, it sounds like an american comedian's impression of a british person, combine that with the liberal use of stereotypical 'british' language that no one actually uses and it becomes incredibly irritating as an actual english person. It's the general theme of his commentary being disingenuous at every point that irritates me and probably a lot of others. I actually think a geordie commentator would be hilarious however, so if TB wants to switch to being real and worked on his game knowledge instead of intentionally disregarding it, i'd probably be a big fan.
Same this is my problem with him. He seems nice enough etc. etc. but as a brit myself I just find myself facepalming a lot of the time whenever he speaks. His voice is so over exaggerated.
And on the topic of geordie commentary, being a southerner myself I would love it. The geordies I've spoke to are usually very blunt and honest, and I think they'd make very entertaining casters.
On February 27 2011 06:09 Beefwipe wrote: Same this is my problem with him. He seems nice enough etc. etc. but as a brit myself I just find myself facepalming a lot of the time whenever he speaks. His voice is so over exaggerated.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
TB seems like a pretty honest person on the whole matter. Except for the whole SotG issue. They did mention I want to say at the tail end that the whole Casting issue wasn't all known and that they don't know Tb's side of the story. So yeah, I wouldn't say a spread of disinformation so much as not having everything and going with what they had at the moment.
Thank you for standing up by the way for Husky, people give him alot of crap. I haven't listened to him in awhile but he's a nice guy and he does love SC. You'd have to be blind to think otherwise. He's a good play by play and that's fine because you need that kind of people just like you need people like day9.
Tb never had to go into sc2 but he did because he likes it. How is that bad? I don't understand why anyone could really dislike him unless you are just wanting to mock him.
I am all for lighhearted mockery for everything and everyone so long as people realize it's all in good fun it's all good.
Good interview I enjoyed it. Thank you very much ^^
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
These are my thoughts. I'd rather just watch the game and have an artosis or a day9 give analysis that might not be immediately apparent to me. I don't need someone to tell me what I can already see. I just don't see a need for play by play myself, though others clearly do.
Very good interview. I've never been too much of a TB fan (the accent actually kind of turns me away), but just hearing him talk about things.. I like the guy, now.
i'm french and i actually dont really mind about accent , kellymilkies or totalbiscuit i can understand them kinda perfecty. Great interview, love TB <3
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
While this maybe goes for you and me, don't forget that a lot of ppl play casual and the caster yelling during exciting parts just adds something to it since even when they don't know perfectly whats going on, they feel the energy. If you say stuff like "don't watch starcraft then" is exactly the opposite of trying to make esport more widespread since its basicly "this is my little club and unless you do this and this you are not allowed".
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
While this maybe goes for you and me, don't forget that a lot of ppl play casual and the caster yelling during exciting parts just adds something to it since even when they don't know perfectly whats going on, they feel the energy. If you say stuff like "don't watch starcraft then" is exactly the opposite of trying to make esport more widespread since its basicly "this is my little club and unless you do this and this you are not allowed".
It doesn't necessarily have to do with viewers being casual or not. Look at BW, most if not all those following the Korean BW scene would be considered pretty hardcore but they loved the excitement the Korean style of commentating added to the game. To me it's the opposite from what you say, I don't necessarily need a caster telling me what's going on, I got eyes to see with and know enough about the game to know and recognize the strats and whatnot on my own. But if someone can add energy and excitement to the game it's invaluable to me.
This guy sounds like he has a clue. I really like the way he deals with conflicts within the community. The folks on state of the game should take a lesson from TB. The members of the SC community need to stick together and support each other, and offer criticism more professionally !
Less trolling, more constructive criticism..it's the only way this thing is gonna grow and become legitimate.
It's just amazing to hear TB talk about Husky versus the State of the Game guys discussing Husky. What a difference !!
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
I completely agree with the whole part about dual commentary. I find that sole person commentary is not nearly as interesting and I find myself searching for flaws. Thanks TB for all your content and I hope that some obnoxious internet quarrel dont stop you from doing what you like doing.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
I don't think comparing to football, hockey or what have you is a fair comparison considering how different they are in terms of complexity. I am not a football fan, I pretty much only watch it when Sweden gets anywhere (lol) but I can easily watch it with Spanish commentators without feeling like I don't know what's going on.
Scoring a goal from some ridiculous angle will look cool no matter how much anyone screams over it, hell, it'll look cool even if shit's muted. I suppose the same could apply to an archon toilet, baneling mines or such but when something that obvious isn't going on SC2 needs far more analysis than football ever will.
Yes, I realize that general player analysis and discussion of their tactics/strategy is prevalent during downtime but it's often more about the commentator's opinion, after all a team doesn't necessarily have to change their tactics throughout a game, 4-3-3 (I believe that was a common formation..?) doesn't care about "early game" or "late game", so to speak.
Starcraft 2 isn't the same. Even when (to the untrained eye) nothing is going on there's a fucking lot happening. Tech is being researched, economy is improving or being neglected in favour of army.. hell, macro is happening. A protoss warping in stalkers and building the occasional void ray/colossus and sitting on his arse isn't exciting to watch on its' own, but knowing that the zerg has to do something to prevent the 200/200 deathball, and he has to do it soon can be.
I don't disagree with broadcaster's helping add excitement to sports (or e-sports for that matter), but I believe it is far more important to at least have some analysis in e-sports. Part of the reason I can watch Quake Live is the awesome commentary explaining just what the fuck is going on, while I would probably get bored of the incredible aim if after a game or two if that was all I understood.
Feel like I'm going in circles here, but tl;dr SC2 can be exciting without analytical commentary, similar to any sport, but SC2 has a lot of potential to be more exciting when there is good analysis. Or even better, a mix of good play by play and analysis, though that's not always feasible.
TotalBiscuit does what an exceptional caster does with ease. He's eloquent and articulate, he has a distinguishable voice, he's engaging, and he's educated.
So he doesn't know all the names of the plays in the playbook, whatever. That makes it really easy for newcomers of this expanding community.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
I've come to realise recently that I don't care what the style of commentary is, as long as the commentator is good at what he does. You get great shoutcasters that hype me up during a game, and you get brilliant analytical commentators who point out things that I would not have picked up on my own. Either way, I don't care as long as they do their job well. I think you are a pretty good shoutcaster; unfortunately I saw your first broadcast a few days before you withdrew from SC2 casting for a bit so I never got to experience it too much.
The only style of commentary I really dislike is when commentators seem to not take their job seriously. Perhaps that's part of growing up, but I'm no longer in commentators constantly making jokes and mucking around. I'd prefer to have the commentary more similar to sports commentary, professional and on point. This doesn't mean that jokes are not allowed, but jokes should not be the focus of the commentary.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
I don't think comparing to football, hockey or what have you is a fair comparison considering how different they are in terms of complexity. I am not a football fan, I pretty much only watch it when Sweden gets anywhere (lol) but I can easily watch it with Spanish commentators without feeling like I don't know what's going on.
Scoring a goal from some ridiculous angle will look cool no matter how much anyone screams over it, hell, it'll look cool even if shit's muted. I suppose the same could apply to an archon toilet, baneling mines or such but when something that obvious isn't going on SC2 needs far more analysis than football ever will.
Yes, I realize that general player analysis and discussion of their tactics/strategy is prevalent during downtime but it's often more about the commentator's opinion, after all a team doesn't necessarily have to change their tactics throughout a game, 4-3-3 (I believe that was a common formation..?) doesn't care about "early game" or "late game", so to speak.
Starcraft 2 isn't the same. Even when (to the untrained eye) nothing is going on there's a fucking lot happening. Tech is being researched, economy is improving or being neglected in favour of army.. hell, macro is happening. A protoss warping in stalkers and building the occasional void ray/colossus and sitting on his arse isn't exciting to watch on its' own, but knowing that the zerg has to do something to prevent the 200/200 deathball, and he has to do it soon can be.
I don't disagree with broadcaster's helping add excitement to sports (or e-sports for that matter), but I believe it is far more important to at least have some analysis in e-sports. Part of the reason I can watch Quake Live is the awesome commentary explaining just what the fuck is going on, while I would probably get bored of the incredible aim if after a game or two if that was all I understood.
Feel like I'm going in circles here, but tl;dr SC2 can be exciting without analytical commentary, similar to any sport, but SC2 has a lot of potential to be more exciting when there is good analysis. Or even better, a mix of good play by play and analysis, though that's not always feasible.
Simplistic sports being shoutcasted does not mean that more complex sports cannot be shoutcasted. I would argue that the speed at which the game moves determines how effective shoutcasting is, rather than the complexity of the game. For example, cricket is complex but also too slow to shoutcast. There's just nothing to shout about in the thirty seconds while the bowler walks back to his position. On the other hand, rugby is a fairly complex game tactically and strategically, but because of its speed shoutcasting and more analytical casting are both used.
Obviously shoutcasting still depends on the skill of the caster. It takes no in-depth game knowledge to describe what the harvester count is or which units are being built. Khaldor is great at this. I never doubt what's going on in his games even though I only understand 80% of the commentary, because he constantly shows you what's happening. However, many shoutcasters only follow the armies manuevering and then I have no idea what's happening. Shoutcasting is fine as long as the caster allows you to do the strategic analysis by giving you all the information.
This thread is about discussing the interview, not about judging people who contribute way more to the community than you. If you have a valid criticism, make it, but if you're going to spew hate you will get banned.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
ive watched sport all my life and i've never come accross a commentator who screams more than you do. one analyst and one "play-by-play" commentator is what happens in football yes, but they will try to have opinions too. generally they spend a lot of the time giving you backstory or insight into the players (usually through the use of form statistics and that kind of thing), calling out peoples names as they recieve the ball etc.
getting excited when there is danger/pressure is one thing, but you go way overboard, and you often suffocate anyone who would or could give any kind of analysis. you are literally just screaming for the sake of it at times. a good play-by-play commentator will not attempt to create excitement during high pressure situations by raising his voice - he will do it by clearly explaining what is happening. if you commentate like this you would find your voice rises naturally as you have to speak faster, but a high understanding of the game is needed in order to point out these things fast and concisely. this is where i think you fail as this type of commentator. your level of understand of sc is not good, and i don't think you will be able to change that.
Andy gray and martin tyler were considered the best commentating duo in football because they were good at analysing things, not because they tried to artificially create excitement. they had their magic moments when they went crazy too - steven gerrards goal against olympiakos is a good example. considering how often you scream and yell, when something actually exciting happens no one will know it via listening to you talk about it
Ignoring his accent, have you guys even seen his WoW stuff. He acts like such a prick, railing against "casuals", infatuated with "skill" in the game, when honestly he has nothing to show for it. He isn't good, doesn't have progression or pvp to show for it.
He's just a loudmouth fuck that loves the idea of being good at games, but isn't at all.
Oops I guess that's the majority of attention whoring commentators.
On February 27 2011 08:30 naventus wrote: Ignoring his accent, have you guys even seen his WoW stuff. He acts like such a prick, railing against "casuals", infatuated with "skill" in the game, when honestly he has nothing to show for it. He isn't good, doesn't have progression or pvp to show for it.
He's just a loudmouth fuck that loves the idea of being good at games, but isn't at all.
Oops I guess that's the majority of attention whoring commentators.
I've seen most of his WoW videos and I have no idea what you are talking about. He doesn't rail against casuals at all, he rails against blizzard dumbing the game down instead of offering a balanced mix of easy/challenging content etc,etc.
On topic, very interesting interview and a lot of interesting responses.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
ive watched sport all my life and i've never come accross a commentator who screams more than you do. one analyst and one "play-by-play" commentator is what happens in football yes, but they will try to have opinions too. generally they spend a lot of the time giving you backstory or insight into the players (usually through the use of form statistics and that kind of thing), calling out peoples names as they recieve the ball etc.
getting excited when there is danger/pressure is one thing, but you go way overboard, and you often suffocate anyone who would or could give any kind of analysis. you are literally just screaming for the sake of it at times. a good play-by-play commentator will not attempt to create excitement during high pressure situations by raising his voice - he will do it by clearly explaining what is happening. if you commentate like this you would find your voice rises naturally as you have to speak faster, but a high understanding of the game is needed in order to point out these things fast and concisely. this is where i think you fail as this type of commentator. your level of understand of sc is not good, and i don't think you will be able to change that.
Andy gray and martin tyler were considered the best commentating duo in football because they were good at analysing things, not because they tried to artificially create excitement. they had their magic moments when they went crazy too - steven gerrards goal against olympiakos is a good example. considering how often you scream and yell, when something actually exciting happens no one will know it via listening to you talk about it
What does your opinion on TB has to do with anything? He replied that the commentator is used to add excitement and energy to a game which is 100% correct. He didn't say anything about his own skill or ability of doing it, that was irrelevant.
On February 27 2011 08:30 naventus wrote: Ignoring his accent, have you guys even seen his WoW stuff. He acts like such a prick, railing against "casuals", infatuated with "skill" in the game, when honestly he has nothing to show for it. He isn't good, doesn't have progression or pvp to show for it.
He's just a loudmouth fuck that loves the idea of being good at games, but isn't at all.
Oops I guess that's the majority of attention whoring commentators.
User was temp banned for this post.
Som people enjoy his casting, some people dont. If you dont like him, why the hell do you listen to him then?
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
I don't think comparing to football, hockey or what have you is a fair comparison considering how different they are in terms of complexity. I am not a football fan, I pretty much only watch it when Sweden gets anywhere (lol) but I can easily watch it with Spanish commentators without feeling like I don't know what's going on.
Scoring a goal from some ridiculous angle will look cool no matter how much anyone screams over it, hell, it'll look cool even if shit's muted. I suppose the same could apply to an archon toilet, baneling mines or such but when something that obvious isn't going on SC2 needs far more analysis than football ever will.
Yes, I realize that general player analysis and discussion of their tactics/strategy is prevalent during downtime but it's often more about the commentator's opinion, after all a team doesn't necessarily have to change their tactics throughout a game, 4-3-3 (I believe that was a common formation..?) doesn't care about "early game" or "late game", so to speak.
Starcraft 2 isn't the same. Even when (to the untrained eye) nothing is going on there's a fucking lot happening. Tech is being researched, economy is improving or being neglected in favour of army.. hell, macro is happening. A protoss warping in stalkers and building the occasional void ray/colossus and sitting on his arse isn't exciting to watch on its' own, but knowing that the zerg has to do something to prevent the 200/200 deathball, and he has to do it soon can be.
I don't disagree with broadcaster's helping add excitement to sports (or e-sports for that matter), but I believe it is far more important to at least have some analysis in e-sports. Part of the reason I can watch Quake Live is the awesome commentary explaining just what the fuck is going on, while I would probably get bored of the incredible aim if after a game or two if that was all I understood.
Feel like I'm going in circles here, but tl;dr SC2 can be exciting without analytical commentary, similar to any sport, but SC2 has a lot of potential to be more exciting when there is good analysis. Or even better, a mix of good play by play and analysis, though that's not always feasible.
You may like that. That's fine. But like TB said, it's a proven formula. Even Artosis and Tasteless say they take a more exciting angle and that's pretty much the case with most of the cast being play-by-play, player trivia, predications, pokemon jokes, and artosis nerdgasms.
I really don't understand the whole divisiveness over all this anyway. There are plenty of people who don't even play SC2 getting hyped up over matches. That's a good thing if you care about SC2 esports at all.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
This is an interesting and rather odd thing to bring up honestly. I can understand people not liking pure play-by-play. I myself admit in the interview that were it logitistically possible, I would co-commentate 100% of the time with an analytical partner and focus purely on the play-by-play. What I am doing is not optimal, it is not what I should be doing, but I am left with little choice because on a logistical, practical and technical level, it is the lesser of two evils. It comes down to subjective preference, some prefer analysis, others prefer play-by-play, others prefer a mix. I don't like dubstep, doesn't mean it's an invalid form of music and people who like it are dumb or whatever.
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
I agree with this. For me, when I watch Korean brood war games I find it more interesting to keep the commentary on (even though I can't understand what they're saying). Mostly I keep it quiet but I never mute it. Just having a voice there that's reflecting the intensity of the game helps me enjoy it, regardless of what the commentator is actually saying. But that's not to say I don't get anything out of listening to an English caster; it's just what I've noticed about myself.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
While this maybe goes for you and me, don't forget that a lot of ppl play casual and the caster yelling during exciting parts just adds something to it since even when they don't know perfectly whats going on, they feel the energy. If you say stuff like "don't watch starcraft then" is exactly the opposite of trying to make esport more widespread since its basicly "this is my little club and unless you do this and this you are not allowed".
It doesn't necessarily have to do with viewers being casual or not. Look at BW, most if not all those following the Korean BW scene would be considered pretty hardcore but they loved the excitement the Korean style of commentating added to the game. To me it's the opposite from what you say, I don't necessarily need a caster telling me what's going on, I got eyes to see with and know enough about the game to know and recognize the strats and whatnot on my own. But if someone can add energy and excitement to the game it's invaluable to me.
Again, you are talking as ppl who watched BW for a while, not the more casual crowd. Unless there was actually a esport for BW outside of korea ofc, correct me if i am wrong i never played and followed that game. The casuals are the ones that came cause of the starcraft 2 hype, together with youtube vids. They know its huge in korea and maybe know the name boxer, thats it. These ppl get more out of an exciting cast that just yells at the more exciting moments then the analystic ones that perfectly tell you what is going since they don't understand half of it. Ofc both is the best, that is why there are casting duos but if casuals could choose they would go for the random yelling at exciting part. This was never my point in the first place. It was about saying "don't watch starcraft if you dont get excited from just the matches" that goes against the whole "we need to make esport bigger in the west" mentality.
The most popular Korean commentators are often broadcasters first, and players second. In fact they are all about professionalism and excitement, and this is probably one of the biggest factor in esports being huge in Korea relative to the West. eSports over there draws in the more common, mainstream audience other than select hardcore gaming communities. Many koreans who speak English will also prefer korean commentary over English one just because how much more flowing, exciting and natural their commentary is.
I'm glad people like TB is bringing the professional broadcaster side of casting SC and making esports more friendly to the mainstream audience. Game knowledge comes with time, and constantly watching the game. Broadcasting skills require years of practice and dedication.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
ive watched sport all my life and i've never come accross a commentator who screams more than you do. one analyst and one "play-by-play" commentator is what happens in football yes, but they will try to have opinions too. generally they spend a lot of the time giving you backstory or insight into the players (usually through the use of form statistics and that kind of thing), calling out peoples names as they recieve the ball etc.
getting excited when there is danger/pressure is one thing, but you go way overboard, and you often suffocate anyone who would or could give any kind of analysis. you are literally just screaming for the sake of it at times. a good play-by-play commentator will not attempt to create excitement during high pressure situations by raising his voice - he will do it by clearly explaining what is happening. if you commentate like this you would find your voice rises naturally as you have to speak faster, but a high understanding of the game is needed in order to point out these things fast and concisely. this is where i think you fail as this type of commentator. your level of understand of sc is not good, and i don't think you will be able to change that.
Andy gray and martin tyler were considered the best commentating duo in football because they were good at analysing things, not because they tried to artificially create excitement. they had their magic moments when they went crazy too - steven gerrards goal against olympiakos is a good example. considering how often you scream and yell, when something actually exciting happens no one will know it via listening to you talk about it
What does your opinion on TB has to do with anything? He replied that the commentator is used to add excitement and energy to a game which is 100% correct. He didn't say anything about his own skill or ability of doing it, that was irrelevant.
he responded to me, telling me i was totally wrong where i said that yelling commentators shouldnt increase excitement for fans. so i gave him my pov on his casting to show him why i think commentators who do nothing but raise their own volume to increase excitement are not actually great at creating any excitement (especially in the long run). my opinion is just an opinion but that was my take on what you do in random threads like this - make posts based on opinion.
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
ive watched sport all my life and i've never come accross a commentator who screams more than you do. one analyst and one "play-by-play" commentator is what happens in football yes, but they will try to have opinions too. generally they spend a lot of the time giving you backstory or insight into the players (usually through the use of form statistics and that kind of thing), calling out peoples names as they recieve the ball etc.
getting excited when there is danger/pressure is one thing, but you go way overboard, and you often suffocate anyone who would or could give any kind of analysis. you are literally just screaming for the sake of it at times. a good play-by-play commentator will not attempt to create excitement during high pressure situations by raising his voice - he will do it by clearly explaining what is happening. if you commentate like this you would find your voice rises naturally as you have to speak faster, but a high understanding of the game is needed in order to point out these things fast and concisely. this is where i think you fail as this type of commentator. your level of understand of sc is not good, and i don't think you will be able to change that.
Andy gray and martin tyler were considered the best commentating duo in football because they were good at analysing things, not because they tried to artificially create excitement. they had their magic moments when they went crazy too - steven gerrards goal against olympiakos is a good example. considering how often you scream and yell, when something actually exciting happens no one will know it via listening to you talk about it
Are you serious about that first sentence? I've been eating, breathing and sleeping sports my entire life and I can think of 10+ commentators on the top of my head with matching enthusiasm from Norway alone. TB is doing it right.
On February 27 2011 05:34 Dental Floss wrote: Hey TB; since you're here, whats your ladder rank? JP for example is mid-diamond and he seems to have an excellent amount of game knowledge and does an great job casting.
Why does this even matter? People who watch TB is because his fun and they dont care much about game knowledge other then the basic.
I was only asking because it would shut-up people complaining that he doesn't know enough about the game in this thread.
Equating game knowledge to casting is not a direct translation.
In a tournament or live game setting you dont have time to rewind replays Day9 style to think about conceptual things.
Someone who can generate excitment and entertainment while watching a game is just as valid to the community - sure their fans might be different to the super-high ranked and versed veteran analyst, but that doesn't mean either is better or worse. Both are equally valid sides of the same coin.
I for one would LOVE to see TB cast live with Day9 - I dont think most people realise how perfect that would be.
Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
While this maybe goes for you and me, don't forget that a lot of ppl play casual and the caster yelling during exciting parts just adds something to it since even when they don't know perfectly whats going on, they feel the energy. If you say stuff like "don't watch starcraft then" is exactly the opposite of trying to make esport more widespread since its basicly "this is my little club and unless you do this and this you are not allowed".
It doesn't necessarily have to do with viewers being casual or not. Look at BW, most if not all those following the Korean BW scene would be considered pretty hardcore but they loved the excitement the Korean style of commentating added to the game. To me it's the opposite from what you say, I don't necessarily need a caster telling me what's going on, I got eyes to see with and know enough about the game to know and recognize the strats and whatnot on my own. But if someone can add energy and excitement to the game it's invaluable to me.
Again, you are talking as ppl who watched BW for a while, not the more casual crowd. Unless there was actually a esport for BW outside of korea ofc, correct me if i am wrong i never played and followed that game. The casuals are the ones that came cause of the starcraft 2 hype, together with youtube vids. They know its huge in korea and maybe know the name boxer, thats it. These ppl get more out of an exciting cast that just yells at the more exciting moments then the analystic ones that perfectly tell you what is going since they don't understand half of it. Ofc both is the best, that is why there are casting duos but if casuals could choose they would go for the random yelling at exciting part.
You completely misunderstood his post. He said that people who watched professional BW listened to Korean commentators (that means commentators speaking in Korean) because the commentators added excitement to the games. There was no analysis since no-one could understand what the commentators were saying.
On February 27 2011 08:38 billyX333 wrote: I hope tb actually likes sc2 as an esport moreso than a business opportunity
Honestly does it really matter? It could be that day9 really hates SC2 buts just hides it really well.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
On February 27 2011 02:48 Logros wrote: I don't really care about his business stuff, if he can make a living from it go him! I just can't stand to listen to him. I don't understand how anyone likes this kind of commentary, but Husky and HD have a ton of fans as well so I guess it's the same fans. I just prefer some more intelligent casting, you can see for yourself what's happening on the screen.
Thats true, you can see whats happening for yourself on the screen. Maybe thats why no professional televised sports use play by play announcers. Oh wait...
On February 27 2011 06:12 imbs wrote: Surely it should be the game itself that generates the excitement for you? if you need a guy to scream at you before you think something that is goin on in a sc game is exciting then maybe watchin starcraft isn't for you?
However what I cannot understand is the quoted attitude, because it doesn't gel with what actually happens in broadcast sports. Every broadcast sport I can think of has this. It is there for a reason, it heightens the drama, it conveys the passion, it enhances the viewing experience. I'd turn around and say to anyone that asks that question, well if you can't get along with that kind of commentary, maybe sports in general isn't for you? Professional sports commentators scream even more than I do and they are sometimes being paid millions a year to do it and those events are some of the most watched spectacles in the world. That is what broadcast sport is, that is what broadcast eSport should, in my opinion be. There is little reason to deviate from a proven formula.
ive watched sport all my life and i've never come accross a commentator who screams more than you do. one analyst and one "play-by-play" commentator is what happens in football yes, but they will try to have opinions too. generally they spend a lot of the time giving you backstory or insight into the players (usually through the use of form statistics and that kind of thing), calling out peoples names as they recieve the ball etc.
getting excited when there is danger/pressure is one thing, but you go way overboard, and you often suffocate anyone who would or could give any kind of analysis. you are literally just screaming for the sake of it at times. a good play-by-play commentator will not attempt to create excitement during high pressure situations by raising his voice - he will do it by clearly explaining what is happening. if you commentate like this you would find your voice rises naturally as you have to speak faster, but a high understanding of the game is needed in order to point out these things fast and concisely. this is where i think you fail as this type of commentator. your level of understand of sc is not good, and i don't think you will be able to change that.
Andy gray and martin tyler were considered the best commentating duo in football because they were good at analysing things, not because they tried to artificially create excitement. they had their magic moments when they went crazy too - steven gerrards goal against olympiakos is a good example. considering how often you scream and yell, when something actually exciting happens no one will know it via listening to you talk about it
Im not sure how it works in other sports, but in American football and basketball there is a play-by-play announcer with a good voice who calls the action and a color commentator who is usually an ex player who gives the insight when it comes to players, coaches, refs, etc. The play-by-play commentator has to be exciting or nobody would watch. In the 90s the NFL televised a game that had no announcers and it was one of the lowest rated games in history. I already know a ton about starcraft, I don't want some drone spewing facts to me about the game, I want some excitement and thats what TB brings to the table.
cool interview, hope you cast more sc2 events. fwiw for the most part what i care most about in a cast is a good voice, decent obsing and entertainment.
I think he's got the right idea when he says a mixed type of caster event is the best thing, just look at tastosis. Artosis is clearly the more knowledgeable and analytical dude while tasteless talks a lot more and adds more excitement and play-by-play casting. This makes them gain in synergy with each cast and avoids collision between them, thus making the couple into the casting archon we all know and love.
Thanks for the link. I'm a big fan of TB and i'm sure this will be a great listen. I've listened to TB way back in the WoW Radio days and I love what he has done with his website and youtube channel.
I guess Khaldor gave some really nice analysis last week for the English speaking community that's why he got a lot of positive feedback ... oh wait ... it was because he was really excited and people got pumped even though we did not know what he was saying.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
There are people who have accused day9 of abandoning BW for the bigger scene. It doesn't matter who it is. If not Day, then a whole bunch of people have been saying that "tasteless just doesn't care any more" etc. etc. My point is that you should care more about their casting than about their personal lives. If they don't really have passion for the game that's their problem, and if they're good enough casters you'd never know. When I listen to TB's casts I never think "oh this guy just doesn't care". I'd like to note that TB has also been casting for a long time before he had any business prospects (per that story about his family). Even right now, SC2 is not a major source of revenue for him. Demanding that a caster have a long history of broadcasting BW is a bit ridiculous.
I find TB to be a genuinely nice and upright person, and I love seeing him cast SC2. I hope to see TB devote more of his time to SC2, especially if he starts playing it a lot himself. With more game knowledge, I'm sure TB would be among the absolute best casters for SC2. But that takes time and the utmost devotion to SC2, which TB don't seem to be able to afford at this moment, but who knows what the future will bring?
Anyway, we all know most internet communities are full of ignorant people, and tl and reddit is no exception. Haters are gonna hate.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
Demanding that a caster have a long history of broadcasting BW is a bit ridiculous.
this isnt the point. he openly admits that he doesnt give a shit about sc1. thats enough evidence for me. i wouldnt enjoy a basketball cast of commentators admitting to "not give a shit about the game"
if there was a younger up and coming sc2 caster who never played bw but admitted to being a huge passionate nerd who regularly gets giddy and nerd chills from awesome sc2 play, i'd love it. it has nothing to do with bw background it has to do with your attitude
On February 27 2011 08:38 billyX333 wrote: I hope tb actually likes sc2 as an esport moreso than a business opportunity
Honestly does it really matter? It could be that day9 really hates SC2 buts just hides it really well.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
Yeah it rubs me the wrong way when you hear a SC2 commentator say that he doesn't care at all about Brood War.
I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. Bill roper still speaks highly of starcraft as if its a child of his. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...
I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...terribly off base comparison. I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
Do you mind providing a link to a quote/video/something where TB shits on BW?
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...terribly off base comparison. I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
Do you mind providing a link to a quote/video/something where TB shits on BW?
On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010
I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know.
So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...?
So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today....
The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day.
Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
I dunno where the fuck this tirade came from. Tyler is right, I don't know the backstory of the competitive scene pre-SC2, I wasn't part of this community at that point, hell I didn't and still don't give a shit about Brood War, wasn't my scene, won't ever be my scene.
I question why a guy would be so dismissive of the broodwar community while simultaneously pretending to be so passionate about sc2
On February 27 2011 08:38 billyX333 wrote: I hope tb actually likes sc2 as an esport moreso than a business opportunity
Honestly does it really matter? It could be that day9 really hates SC2 buts just hides it really well.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
Yeah it rubs me the wrong way when you hear a SC2 commentator say that he doesn't care at all about Brood War.
Comments like these make me shrug... seriously..
So you are saying, that if someone did not have an intrest in a game that is well over a decade old, that is extremely outdated, and which had a competative scene that wasn't even close to comparable to other games in the western scene, you will find it less enjoyable to hear him cast a game of an entirely different game that has nothing to do with sc1 in any way what so ever, which is establishing a greater playerbase aswell as fanbase throughout the western world?
Do you really blame these people for watching and loving a game that is popular?
The way you people (here's a terrible generalisation of elitist BW viewers) seem to think about sc2 is that if you did not have a great interest in sc1, you are inferior, and do not have a voice within the sc2 community. Well, let me tell you this, dear elitist. You have just as much say in this scene as the 7 year old kid that got sc2 gifted for his birthday by his parents today, who actually doesn't even like the game and tossed it away. That's right, you heard me, your influence and/or time put into starcraft 1, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT when it comes to sc2.
TB is a great caster, and if it wasn't for my personal need for analysis to enjoy watching sc2 games I would deffinitely tune in more. If he casts with an 'analyst' by his side his casts are awesome as hell and pretty much the best casting you can wish for. Just because he doesn't refer to builds like tasteless does occasionally saying stuff like 'this is just like TvP in BW, where the T controls the map with spider mines until the P gets detection!' or whatever it is happened back in BW. Quite honestly, every time I hear such a referance to sc1, I want to slam my face into my desk. Not only because, once again, sc1 has nothing to do with sc2, but also because 99% of the viewers doesn't give a shit about BW and what it was like.
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...terribly off base comparison. I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
Do you mind providing a link to a quote/video/something where TB shits on BW?
On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010
I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know.
So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...?
So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today....
The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day.
Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
I dunno where the fuck this tirade came from. Tyler is right, I don't know the backstory of the competitive scene pre-SC2, I wasn't part of this community at that point, hell I didn't and still don't give a shit about Brood War, wasn't my scene, won't ever be my scene.
I question why a guy would be so dismissive of the broodwar community while simultaneously pretending to be so passionate about sc2
You have a problem with the fact that he doesn't care about Brood War? I can't see that being an issue unless he intended to start casting BW. It's like he said, it wasn't his scene and likely won't ever be. He didn't shit on Brood War, he said it doesn't matter to him.
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...terribly off base comparison. I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
Do you mind providing a link to a quote/video/something where TB shits on BW?
On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010
I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know.
So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...?
So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today....
The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day.
Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
I dunno where the fuck this tirade came from. Tyler is right, I don't know the backstory of the competitive scene pre-SC2, I wasn't part of this community at that point, hell I didn't and still don't give a shit about Brood War, wasn't my scene, won't ever be my scene.
I question why a guy would be so dismissive of the broodwar community while simultaneously pretending to be so passionate about sc2
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...terribly off base comparison. I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
Do you mind providing a link to a quote/video/something where TB shits on BW?
On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010
I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know.
So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...?
So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today....
The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day.
Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
I dunno where the fuck this tirade came from. Tyler is right, I don't know the backstory of the competitive scene pre-SC2, I wasn't part of this community at that point, hell I didn't and still don't give a shit about Brood War, wasn't my scene, won't ever be my scene.
Doesn't matter how harsh he was in the delivery of the message, the message was on point and accurate. It's the internet, best not to get crazy offended because somebody pointed out that someone else is wrong.
I'm pretty sure that's not what shitting on something means, ''I don't give a shit about BW'' is just a blunt way of saying ''I don't care about BW'', or am I crazy?
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
I have to agree,. Blizzard isn't in the video game business so that I or you or anyone else reading this gets to play SC2 or BW or any other game they produce.
just as Ford motor company isn't in the business of making cars just so people get to drive. Ford and Blizzard are in business to make money.
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...terribly off base comparison. I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
Do you mind providing a link to a quote/video/something where TB shits on BW?
On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010
I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know.
So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...?
So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today....
The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day.
Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
I dunno where the fuck this tirade came from. Tyler is right, I don't know the backstory of the competitive scene pre-SC2, I wasn't part of this community at that point, hell I didn't and still don't give a shit about Brood War, wasn't my scene, won't ever be my scene.
I question why a guy would be so dismissive of the broodwar community while simultaneously pretending to be so passionate about sc2
It's obviously because he's been fed spoonfulls of shit and doesn't care about it anymore. Are you passionate about wc2 community? Makes about as much sense.
On February 27 2011 09:16 alexpnd wrote: I haven't listened to this but the fact that people have to apologize for someone seeing opportunity in a video game, be it for money or something other, is a fucking joke. Grow up. Blizzard made millions off of BW, millions off of SC2 selling 3 million in the first month of release. Fuck. Blizzard is just in it for the money! What dishonest pricks. Get with it.
LOL. This is the most skewed comparison i have ever read. Blizzard is a COMPANY not a PERSON. Bill roper still speaks highly of starcraft as if its a child of his. If Browder admitted to hating RTS games, i'd have questions...
I think its cool TB can make money off his "passion" I was originally for the guy until he essentially shits on sc1. Hes essentially an entertainer who we're supposed to feed off of... a criterion for his job is a love and passion for the game, how the fuck can anybody argue this? Its not about the money, its about his fucking "behind the scenes" attitude
You don't get the point. TB can do whatever the hell he likes. Whatever his end's are, and I'm sure he's reached some of him because he's so popular, he's finding sc2 as a solid vehicle. As did Husky, Day9, HD, Wheat etc. It's not his job to love games but to cast them. If you love them then good? I don't understand. The sc1 foreigner scene was shit [ed: although dreamhack etc did provide some value, TL was mostly korean oriented]. The biggest tourney was in it's "last year" just one year ago with TL. What's so bad about dismissing it? We're not in Korea. We can dismiss it. Go play on iccup like I do if you love it so much, restream the Proleagues, but fuck judging casters about it.
maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
From the posts I skimmed through I noticed some people want to make "ESPURTS", which honestly its such an overused term I don't know what it means anymore, some sort of serious event with boring guys in a suit casting and giving "strategic insight" I think of Starcraft II as a videogame rather than a sport. Its two nerds bashing it out in a 1v1 showdown of skills, cheese and mindgames. If anything is hurting "esports" is the elitist attitude most "fans" take and their obsession over terrible commentators and stuff like jokes and "bad manners". Not that I'm saying TB is terrible, there are far worst out there and even more popular than him, but he still has the right to cast and even make money if the possibility exists. There are a lot of other casters out there and more variety can never hurt. It would be pretty boring if everyone was just a Day9 clone. Hopefully those elitist guys are just a vocal minority.
On February 27 2011 09:44 billyX333 wrote: maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
You're implying that Teamliquid is my primary demographic. It's not, I don't market towards the more hardcore players, I do the opposite, I market towards newer/casual/non-players in the hope it will bring them further into the community.
The 40 year old guy who hated RTS until he watched my videos then took the plunge, bought SC2 after never playing an RTS since Dune 2 and started his career in bronze league, is the guy I'm interested in (this is a true story). I make this very clear in my SHOUTcraft thread, it's worth a read if you're interested in my targetted demographic and what I'm trying to actually do.
Brood War is not really of any relevance to what I do. I'm not sure why people would find that offensive. I am also a big WoW coveragererer, I don't really give a shit about Warcraft 3. Same thing?
Because bw is the paradigm example of what we want sc2 to be. At the moment it is not reaching that level of entertainment and spectacle. wow and war3 are utterly unrelated.
This is the first time I've really heard TB actually speak and I have to say he is correct in so many points about how different demographics will want different things from the game. I think this is why casters such as Tasteless and Artosis can be so good because they can cater to both sides of shoutcasting and analysis.
I also noticed on TL the amount of bashing that play-by-play casters get (especially husky) and will say things like he's not a real 'caster' because of his style.
After listening to TB he seems like a very good guy. I like how he is honest with his answers and has really worked for and deserved the popularity he has now. I really enjoy his style of casting, because I would bet that the large majority of people enjoy play by play casting and the excitement that comes along with a caster's shoutcasting.
Its proven across gaming commentary, the most popular casters are those with styles like TB. in SC2 - Husky in HoN - breakycpk, in DotA - TobiWanKenobi. However the harcore players watching for the analytical commentary are much more vocal in their complaints than the casual viewers. And of course it makes sense, because the casual viewers are just that. casual, and would not come onto a specific forum and complain.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
Demanding that a caster have a long history of broadcasting BW is a bit ridiculous.
this isnt the point. he openly admits that he doesnt give a shit about sc1. thats enough evidence for me. i wouldnt enjoy a basketball cast of commentators admitting to "not give a shit about the game"
if there was a younger up and coming sc2 caster who never played bw but admitted to being a huge passionate nerd who regularly gets giddy and nerd chills from awesome sc2 play, i'd love it. it has nothing to do with bw background it has to do with your attitude
My god, are you retarded? TB said he was more interested in WC3 than SC1, yes, but that he loves SC2. He never said he doesn't give a shit about this game, so your comparison is just fucking stupid. You're stupid.
On February 27 2011 11:52 Puremiss wrote: After listening to TB he seems like a very good guy. I like how he is honest with his answers and has really worked for and deserved the popularity he has now. I really enjoy his style of casting, because I would bet that the large majority of people enjoy play by play casting and the excitement that comes along with a caster's shoutcasting.
Its proven across gaming commentary, the most popular casters are those with styles like TB. in SC2 - Husky in HoN - breakycpk, in DotA - TobiWanKenobi. However the harcore players watching for the analytical commentary are much more vocal in their complaints than the casual viewers. And of course it makes sense, because the casual viewers are just that. casual, and would not come onto a specific forum and complain.
I actually disagree entirely with your premise. The most popular casters are only popular because of luck and personality, not because of their non-analytical and casual style. Think about it: Husky is the number one caster along with HD because they were the first to get into SC2 Youtube casting, Breakycpk was pretty much the only caster for HoN for the longest time, etc.
People mostly watch them because of availability now -- search SC2 in YT and you basically only get Husky's videos due to the number of views they've gotten now.
Remember, when all those casters you named began to establish a viewerbase, they were pretty much the only ones around. There wasn't an abundance of casters for viewers to choose between.
On February 27 2011 09:44 billyX333 wrote: maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
You're implying that Teamliquid is my primary demographic. It's not, I don't market towards the more hardcore players, I do the opposite, I market towards newer/casual/non-players in the hope it will bring them further into the community.
The 40 year old guy who hated RTS until he watched my videos then took the plunge, bought SC2 after never playing an RTS since Dune 2 and started his career in bronze league, is the guy I'm interested in (this is a true story). I make this very clear in my SHOUTcraft thread, it's worth a read if you're interested in my targetted demographic and what I'm trying to actually do.
Brood War is not really of any relevance to what I do. I'm not sure why people would find that offensive. I am also a big WoW coveragererer, I don't really give a shit about Warcraft 3. Same thing?
Hey man I just wanted to send some support your way. I wasn't the biggest fan of your casts in the beginning mostly because I had already grown accustomed to casters that I regularly tuned into. After all of this silly drama unfortunately involving you recently I paid more attention and I just have to say I think you do a great job. Your high energy and ability to consistently produce quality vods and casting is very respectable and I enjoy it. This was a great interview you did and I want to thank you for all you do for sc2 and esports. I guess what they say, any publicity is good publicity since now I'm a fan and a supporter.
Please continue to cast sc2 games as I think you're great for the community!
Best of luck Total Biscuit. I haven't heard much from you (and unfortunately mostly from places like SOTG, but, hey, at least it gets your name well known), but I hear some casts / live stuff from you in the future.
You can't want e-sports scene to grow and at the same time subject it to all kinds of superficial limitations as to how it should grow and who's allowed to do it. You have to like this other game I like too, you can't make money, you have to have this ladder rank, I have to like you, Geoff has to like you.. Honestly, what? :/ That's not what's important at all.
Whether he's your cup of tea or not, TB seems a passionate guy who does seem to try to constantly improve and who throws out a shit-ton of content which simply does open up SC2 to an additional audience. Even if you want to Negative Nancy it up, the last bit can only be good for the scene so get over it.
On February 27 2011 09:44 billyX333 wrote: maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
You're implying that Teamliquid is my primary demographic. It's not, I don't market towards the more hardcore players, I do the opposite, I market towards newer/casual/non-players in the hope it will bring them further into the community.
The 40 year old guy who hated RTS until he watched my videos then took the plunge, bought SC2 after never playing an RTS since Dune 2 and started his career in bronze league, is the guy I'm interested in (this is a true story). I make this very clear in my SHOUTcraft thread, it's worth a read if you're interested in my targetted demographic and what I'm trying to actually do.
Brood War is not really of any relevance to what I do. I'm not sure why people would find that offensive. I am also a big WoW coveragererer, I don't really give a shit about Warcraft 3. Same thing?
So just a question then, but why do you care so much what people here say about you? If you don't want to be liked by this demographic, and your product is explicitly not targeted towards it, why do you get so involved in drama including it? Just my opinion, but I feel like if you're going to be a public personality, you should be a little more thick skinned about it. Don't get so involved whenever anyone says anything bad about you. For example, watching and commenting in this thread is probably a bad idea. When people from this site and this community make fun of you - which will happen inevitably, as long as you are part of SC2 - you should not get involved, because that makes it a BFD when it doesn't have to be.
In other words, don't make a product which is explicitly not for this community, and then expect this community to love you for it.
Thanks for all your contributions TB, it blows my mind how many people want to drag you down out of jealousy for what you've accomplished. I really think your voice is necessary to help make sc2 a more popular sport, in a community that's not really known for it's professionalism, you really tend to stand out from the crowd and I appreciate you for delivering us so much entertainment.
Do you guys really think commentators are there to teach you strategies?
On February 27 2011 11:52 Puremiss wrote: After listening to TB he seems like a very good guy. I like how he is honest with his answers and has really worked for and deserved the popularity he has now. I really enjoy his style of casting, because I would bet that the large majority of people enjoy play by play casting and the excitement that comes along with a caster's shoutcasting.
Its proven across gaming commentary, the most popular casters are those with styles like TB. in SC2 - Husky in HoN - breakycpk, in DotA - TobiWanKenobi. However the harcore players watching for the analytical commentary are much more vocal in their complaints than the casual viewers. And of course it makes sense, because the casual viewers are just that. casual, and would not come onto a specific forum and complain.
I actually disagree entirely with your premise. The most popular casters are only popular because of luck and personality, not because of their non-analytical and casual style. Think about it: Husky is the number one caster along with HD because they were the first to get into SC2 Youtube casting, Breakycpk was pretty much the only caster for HoN for the longest time, etc.
People mostly watch them because of availability now -- search SC2 in YT and you basically only get Husky's videos due to the number of views they've gotten now.
Remember, when all those casters you named began to establish a viewerbase, they were pretty much the only ones around. There wasn't an abundance of casters for viewers to choose between.
I agree that their initial success comes from what you mentioned. But their continued success is because they are much more appealing than analytical casters. What you seem to be saying is that the reason they are so popular is because people had to settle for them because there was no other choice. So why not the big exodus away from these excitement oriented play-by-play casters?
Plus, that argument goes both ways just think about it. Day[9] the prime example of an analytical caster, began without any competition and rode the wave of SC2 initial excitement to become the caster that he is today. So I would say that he is only popular because he got lucky, starting out first before everyone else. And this would probably be the last thing I say because I would be ripped apart by hate. Day[9] is popular because of his analytical style and what he brings to the table. This goes exactly the same for casters like TB and Husky people tune into them because they like what these individual bring to a cast, not because they lucked out. If you do not consider Day[9]'s success to be luck and "no other competition" how can you consider Husky's?
Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
On February 27 2011 11:52 Puremiss wrote: After listening to TB he seems like a very good guy. I like how he is honest with his answers and has really worked for and deserved the popularity he has now. I really enjoy his style of casting, because I would bet that the large majority of people enjoy play by play casting and the excitement that comes along with a caster's shoutcasting.
Its proven across gaming commentary, the most popular casters are those with styles like TB. in SC2 - Husky in HoN - breakycpk, in DotA - TobiWanKenobi. However the harcore players watching for the analytical commentary are much more vocal in their complaints than the casual viewers. And of course it makes sense, because the casual viewers are just that. casual, and would not come onto a specific forum and complain.
I actually disagree entirely with your premise. The most popular casters are only popular because of luck and personality, not because of their non-analytical and casual style. Think about it: Husky is the number one caster along with HD because they were the first to get into SC2 Youtube casting, Breakycpk was pretty much the only caster for HoN for the longest time, etc.
People mostly watch them because of availability now -- search SC2 in YT and you basically only get Husky's videos due to the number of views they've gotten now.
Remember, when all those casters you named began to establish a viewerbase, they were pretty much the only ones around. There wasn't an abundance of casters for viewers to choose between.
I agree that their initial success comes from what you mentioned. But their continued success is because they are much more appealing than analytical casters. What you seem to be saying is that the reason they are so popular is because people had to settle for them because there was no other choice. So why not the big exodus away from these excitement oriented play-by-play casters?
Plus, that argument goes both ways just think about it. Day[9] the prime example of an analytical caster, began without any competition and rode the wave of SC2 initial excitement to become the caster that he is today. So I would say that he is only popular because he got lucky, starting out first before everyone else. And this would probably be the last thing I say because I would be ripped apart by hate. Day[9] is popular because of his analytical style and what he brings to the table. This goes exactly the same for casters like TB and Husky people tune into them because they like what these individual bring to a cast, not because they lucked out. If you do not consider Day[9]'s success to be luck and "no other competition" how can you consider Husky's?
Except Day9 has a huge broodwar background/fanbase to start off. That wasn't luck, that was years of playing and acquiring game knowledge. Also he casts huge tournaments and people love him for it and Husky helped cast an MLG and that didn't go so well.
On February 27 2011 09:44 billyX333 wrote: maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
You're implying that Teamliquid is my primary demographic. It's not, I don't market towards the more hardcore players, I do the opposite, I market towards newer/casual/non-players in the hope it will bring them further into the community.
The 40 year old guy who hated RTS until he watched my videos then took the plunge, bought SC2 after never playing an RTS since Dune 2 and started his career in bronze league, is the guy I'm interested in (this is a true story). I make this very clear in my SHOUTcraft thread, it's worth a read if you're interested in my targetted demographic and what I'm trying to actually do.
Brood War is not really of any relevance to what I do. I'm not sure why people would find that offensive. I am also a big WoW coveragererer, I don't really give a shit about Warcraft 3. Same thing?
I can respect that. I have to admit I'm quite ignorant of your work but I can now see that its definitely a good thing for starcraft.
I think I have a lot of negativity and drama associated with your name and developed a premature opinion from some of your opinionated statements directed at the starcraft community.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
Ok so I'm pretty sure he and Artosis are buddies based on everything Artosis says about him and vice versa, so that's just friendly joking around. Regarding TB: you'd be hard-pressed to find many other people who consider him to be a superior caster, but that aside, he's not really making things easy for himself with his replies to every silly thing iNc says. I'm pretty sure iNcontrol never made fun of HayprO (and in fact did the opposite) and he now considers SeleCT to be one of the best (if not the best) Terran in NA.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
On February 27 2011 12:49 iNcontroL wrote: GET SOME
Oh god lol ahahahaha. <3<3<3<3 you iNcontroL.
Ah, I wish a magical unicorn would pick me up and take me to a world where people could make fun of each other without people getting their feelings hurt.
what the fuck day9 is the most passionate starcraft nerd right behind artosis. starcraft and what it is to him is an integral part of his identity. TB said himself he didnt give a fuck about sc1 and it will never be his scene. I dont understand how some of these newer commentators are such passionate esports/competitive rts fans when they only just show up to the party right when the game hits mainstream. How the fuck can i get excited about this guy casting a game he apparently never gave a shit about until it was lucrative enough for his business. Day9 began doing dailies with like 400 viewers casting entirely in obscurity and he kept doing it with no real business prospects. never compare these two guys please... please
Demanding that a caster have a long history of broadcasting BW is a bit ridiculous.
this isnt the point. he openly admits that he doesnt give a shit about sc1. thats enough evidence for me. i wouldnt enjoy a basketball cast of commentators admitting to "not give a shit about the game"
if there was a younger up and coming sc2 caster who never played bw but admitted to being a huge passionate nerd who regularly gets giddy and nerd chills from awesome sc2 play, i'd love it. it has nothing to do with bw background it has to do with your attitude
My god, are you retarded? TB said he was more interested in WC3 than SC1, yes, but that he loves SC2. He never said he doesn't give a shit about this game, so your comparison is just fucking stupid. You're stupid.
now whyd u have to go on and bring my mental retardation into this?
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
Ok so I'm pretty sure he and Artosis are buddies based on everything Artosis says about him and vice versa, so that's just friendly joking around. Regarding TB: you'd be hard-pressed to find many other people who consider him to be a superior caster, but that aside, he's not really making things easy for himself with his replies to every silly thing iNc says. I'm pretty sure iNcontrol never made fun of HayprO (and in fact did the opposite) and he now considers SeleCT to be one of the best (if not the best) Terran in NA.
... said the ignorant Incontrol fanboy, who's probably american.
You're just repeating Incontrol's silly excuses for acting like a total douchebag. Try using your own brain for once.
Glad to see a thread about this Thought it was a great interview. Personally, I think TB has the most broadcast experience out of anyone currently in the business. He is definitely going to prove a valuable asset for E Sports going forward. Hope he sticks around for a long time....
Yes TB might not be so awesome at Sc2(He admits it himself) but his commentaries are barely about the game analysis, you want that you watch day9. It is why his vids are called Shoutcraft. On a side note, he is the only person of the gamestation where I regulary watch his vids, for his WTF, Azeroth daily videos and Starcraft. He puts out so much content of high quality for that.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
Ok so I'm pretty sure he and Artosis are buddies based on everything Artosis says about him and vice versa, so that's just friendly joking around. Regarding TB: you'd be hard-pressed to find many other people who consider him to be a superior caster, but that aside, he's not really making things easy for himself with his replies to every silly thing iNc says. I'm pretty sure iNcontrol never made fun of HayprO (and in fact did the opposite) and he now considers SeleCT to be one of the best (if not the best) Terran in NA.
... said the ignorant Incontrol fanboy, who's probably american.
You're just repeating Incontrol's silly excuses for acting like a total douchebag. Try using your own brain for once.
LOL. So it's more of a hating Americans things than anything else.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
I honestly don't think it is a big deal most of the time, but I do agree that he needs to be thinker skinned if he is going to constantly bash other people, even if it is only in good fun.
I understand it's easy to hate InControL but he's really not such a bad guy (I'm not saying he's an angel). Just watch his stream and you'll probably see that (assuming you aren't hellbent on proving me wrong, which may very well be the case).
As for the interview... I'm 3/4 the way through and I'm liking it. I think TB is a good guy and approaches most situations in a fair and professional manner. He is someone who is easy to respect so I'm not sure why he gets so much crap. If you don't like play by play commentary then I would recommend not listening to him... but as someone who also enjoys watching artosis or day9, I still like TB's excitement.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
Ok so I'm pretty sure he and Artosis are buddies based on everything Artosis says about him and vice versa, so that's just friendly joking around. Regarding TB: you'd be hard-pressed to find many other people who consider him to be a superior caster, but that aside, he's not really making things easy for himself with his replies to every silly thing iNc says. I'm pretty sure iNcontrol never made fun of HayprO (and in fact did the opposite) and he now considers SeleCT to be one of the best (if not the best) Terran in NA.
... said the ignorant Incontrol fanboy, who's probably american.
You're just repeating Incontrol's silly excuses for acting like a total douchebag. Try using your own brain for once.
You do realize that other people don't get their feelings hurt as easily as you right? To me the stuff iNcontrol says is FUNNY, thats all, I don't take it seriously, he doesn't take it seriously, and no one he says it about takes it seriously other then TB for some reason.
Where can I listen or watch this parody from incontrol on TB I need a good laugh.
I don't have much to say on this as for a long time now I have known what type of guy totalbiscuit is. It is easy to say 'well don't listen to him' which I don't, but it is sometimes unavoidable :p
anyone know where I can find an mp3 / audio stream of this interview? blip.tv seems retarded and is actually processing that 1 frame of video over and over again... Don't really want to waste the bandwidth on something that should just be only 60mb odd
On February 27 2011 13:14 Azza wrote: Where can I listen or watch this parody from incontrol on TB I need a good laugh.
I don't have much to say on this as for a long time now I have known what type of guy totalbiscuit is. It is easy to say 'well don't listen to him' which I don't, but it is sometimes unavoidable :p
I do believe these can be found on the last few State of the game Podcasts hosted by JP.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
I honestly don't think it is a big deal most of the time, but I do agree that he needs to be thinker skinned if he is going to constantly bash other people, even if it is only in good fun.
I understand it's easy to hate InControL but he's really not such a bad guy (I'm not saying he's an angel). Just watch his stream and you'll probably see that (assuming you aren't hellbent on proving me wrong, which may very well be the case).
As for the interview... I'm 3/4 the way through and I'm liking it. I think TB is a good guy and approaches most situations in a fair and professional manner. He is someone who is easy to respect so I'm not sure why he gets so much crap. If you don't like play by play commentary then I would recommend not listening to him... but as someone who also enjoys watching artosis or day9, I still like TB's excitement.
I don't know.. I wouldn't take this things seriously if this were about me.. but at the same time I don't like incontrol's attitude towards pretty much anything, he comes off as a very arrogant person, but whatever, I don't know him personally so I really can't tell, it's just what I get from him. Also, he seems very unprofessional at everything he does. If he wants e-sports to be srs bznz, then he needs to become serious, or he'll just fail.
Likewise, I like TB more since he seems a lot more professional at everything he does, he just seems more like a grown up in comparison to incontrol, even when he's spouting ridiculous things about a game lol.
Well... finally finished that interview. Very interesting. I do believe things can be a bit of a vicious cycle. I believe you can't drive players forward without some financial backing. Whether that is being sponsored or just winning some small tournaments or both. If they can sacrifice that time to get better (instead spending that time at a regular job), you can produce some really good players. This is a game that requires a lot of practice after all. That's why I really like more live local events. It's kind of hard to fly around on a pro gamer's budget. And, dare I even say it, they could lock the event to local players only. Sure, it won't have zomg all the best players in the world, but how many Koreans have participated in foreign events? So it's really a moot point anyway. At least a live LAN event kind of produces that effect without explicitly doing that. Sure you can come and compete... just buy your own plane ticket! MLG is filled with Americans. Sure some will say it's a noobfest. But the thing I like about it is that it fosters esports growth HERE. You don't have Koreans flying out to foreign events much. They don't need to.
And besides a local (big) event produces a spectacle for the local passerby. Promote the event locally, you will likely get some people to show up because they saw an ad and decided to make it a weekend out of it.
And to TotalBiscuit, if you're reading this, thanks for organizing your channel better. I hesitated to subscribe for a long time because I didn't want to be bombarded with WoW stuff in my inbox. Now I can just click the SC2 playlist. And I guess the new YouTube homepage is a little more helpful as crap as that is.
On February 27 2011 09:44 billyX333 wrote: maybe shitting on is a strong word but i dont like his dismissive attitude towards the community that drove the production of sc2. if the bw scene didnt exist there would have been no project to continue the franchise. the games are incredibly similar and have overlapping communities and fans. to not "give a shit" about the BW scene is a very peculiar statement to make when hes essentially broadcasting to a community that dearly loves everything starcraft
You're implying that Teamliquid is my primary demographic. It's not, I don't market towards the more hardcore players, I do the opposite, I market towards newer/casual/non-players in the hope it will bring them further into the community.
The 40 year old guy who hated RTS until he watched my videos then took the plunge, bought SC2 after never playing an RTS since Dune 2 and started his career in bronze league, is the guy I'm interested in (this is a true story). I make this very clear in my SHOUTcraft thread, it's worth a read if you're interested in my targetted demographic and what I'm trying to actually do.
Brood War is not really of any relevance to what I do. I'm not sure why people would find that offensive. I am also a big WoW coveragererer, I don't really give a shit about Warcraft 3. Same thing?
So just a question then, but why do you care so much what people here say about you? If you don't want to be liked by this demographic, and your product is explicitly not targeted towards it, why do you get so involved in drama including it? Just my opinion, but I feel like if you're going to be a public personality, you should be a little more thick skinned about it. Don't get so involved whenever anyone says anything bad about you. For example, watching and commenting in this thread is probably a bad idea. When people from this site and this community make fun of you - which will happen inevitably, as long as you are part of SC2 - you should not get involved, because that makes it a BFD when it doesn't have to be.
In other words, don't make a product which is explicitly not for this community, and then expect this community to love you for it.
It's a fairly difficult situation I'd guess. If you check TB's postcount, 890 posts is fairly significant so he's a part of the TL community. Even though his product is not aimed at Teamliquid lots of people still enjoy it, and those who don't, should be able to appreciate it for what it is, or at least keep their mindless negativity to themselves.
I do agree that TB needs to be a bit more thick skinned, it's been requirement for commentators in the SC community for as long as youtube commentators existed, but being thick skinned is probably more easily said than done, especially when the attacks come from respected members of the community. Still, I hope TB starts ignoring the hate and continues casting
On February 27 2011 05:51 imbs wrote: i am kind of confused as to how tb is so popular. i'm not trying to be mean here, but he offers next to zero insight into anything, wow included. do people really need a guy screaming through their headset about nothing in particular to make things exciting? i'm not trying to have a go at him or anything, its a great thing that he does so well, but he kinda ruins the games he commentates - for me at least.
It seems that a lot of people here on TL have the same feeling, i.e. they like casting which provides deep insight on the matchup, the timings and the game overall, preferrably from pro gamers (Artosis, Day9, IdrA, etc.). I would consider myself amongst these, too.
This is a topic TotalBiscuit addresses in the interview, as well, I think he called this type of casting "analytical style" as opposed to the "play-by-play", which is the type of casting he does. What he pointed out and what a lot of people have not fully accepted or realized, is that the people who prefer the "analytical casting" are a minority. The vast majority already are viewers who prefer the "play-by-play" stlye. To prove his point, he referred to the Youtube subscriber numbers.
Just to pick two very clear examples: Husky: 407.288 subscribers Artosis: 88.795 subscribers
Obviously, these numbers are debateable, given that Artosis does his channel as a side project, while for Husky, it's his main job, but the general idea cannot be challenged: The majority of people prefer "play-by-play" casting. I cannot stand Husky and I'm a big Artosis fan, but I cannot deny that most people will prefer the "play-by-play" style.
TotalBiscuit's comparison to traditional sports was quite convincing: In traditional sports, the commentary is not focused on deep analysis, it is on the emotions and the "play-by-play". Good commentators have the insight, but will focus on the the other aspects. The analytical side happens after the game. Maybe some remember the previous soccer World Cup, where there was a dedicated section for strategy analysis (how situations would have evolved differently if players would have taken different positions), but it was broadcasted after the game and only watched by a minority.
So his whole point was: With the growth of e-sports, that will happen to e-sports just alike. The focus will be on play-by-play because that is what the majority wants. And the numbers we see already point towards that fact. With this in mind, other factors become more important, such as professional phrasing (no "ahs", "uhms"). And this is something TotalBiscuit does excellently. I do understand his point and I am convinced that his SC2-casting is doing something good for the growth of e-sports.
One thing I notice about this situation in general and TotalBiscuit clearing up the situation in a very calmly manner on this interview: At the moment, the scene seems to lack of "demagogic" diversity. State of the Game is super popular, and that for a good reason, and I love it myself. But it has reached a level of importance in the community that once a statement is done there, which is of course always to take with a grain of salt, it's hard to justify yourself if you don't get the opportunity to get on SotG yourself, even more yet now that djWheat has stopped his shows. This is not a fault of SotG or JP by any means but even more the mistake of others not establishing comparable formats that counter-control each other, which I love even more that this interview was done, it's an opportunity for TB to point out his situation which you can LISTEN to instead of read it, or getting burried in the context of a cast.
That said, I enjoyed the whole interview, the questions were interesting, and TB expanded on them very well. And I love him still sticking around with us and even on here where I feel he got quite some unreasonable hate. Especially for someone that puts himself out with so much honesty, I feel it is so hypocrit how some people approach the topic. Listen to the interview in whole before posting your oppinion.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Yusername wrote: Incontrol really needs to shut his giant toad mouth and stop harassing people who are more talented casters (Artosis, TB)/greater players (HayprO, SeleCT) than him. If someone made fun of his weight (comparable to him making fun of TB's voice and Artosis being a jew) in front of a live audience on a regular basis I bet he'd be quite upset about that. Hell, you can't even criticize him in the forum without him bitching about it.
On February 27 2011 12:49 iNcontroL wrote: GET SOME
Oh god lol ahahahaha. <3<3<3<3 you iNcontroL.
Ah, I wish a magical unicorn would pick me up and take me to a world where people could make fun of each other without people getting their feelings hurt.
I admit I had to lol at that, too ;-). While it's fine for the player iNcontroL to make fun of people publicly, it won't be good if the caster and NASL-figurehead iNcontroL does that. Players talk bad about each other, that's good, that creates drama. Commentators do not rip on people, however (for anything but bad playing performance). People will move away from a commentator who does that. We all want the NASL to succeed massively (and I will be buying my premium tickets), and he has already stated that he will go for a more professional approach. So, as funny as this reply is, it is confusing in the overall picutre, especially in this particular thread.
TB kind of reminds me of a much more calm and refined version of myself. Other than completely ignoring a PM I sent him a while ago, I have never felt anything he did was any different than what I do or wanted to do at some time. I'm not sure why people seem to have harbored this inbred hatred for him. TB's accent hardly even registers in my head when I'm listening to him... and I'm Canadian. *shrug* what do I know? However, I've only watched his WoW videos.
I try to aim for a balance of my casting between analysis and "play by play". Considering that nothing going on in most of sc2 my audience can't figure out for themselves, I find it irrelevant to repeat myself on basic stuff after a while. Personally, I like the standard Korean commentary on BW games more than anything else, even though I have great respect for Tastosis/Day9 and such, just because of the energy they instill into the game that I feel cannot be translated very easily into English at all. But at that point I know enough about BW that I don't need people telling me obvious things. With SC2, I just don't find the game interesting at all, and I have an extremely hard time not getting bored through any manner of game. Thus I don't watch sc2 casts of any kind, not that my crappy Canadian bandwidth can support both HD uploading and regular downloading.
I watch lots of TB's stuff, I even watched a 45 minute video on LoL (which I have no interest in) because he was commentating and explaining it, I like the guy's humour. I subbed the guys channel as soon as I heard the red dwarf joke in his Worgen Starter area vid. It was through WoW I discovered his channel, the fact he does SC2 is a bonus. Saying that I enjoy his casting style on SC2 and his "I suck at starcraft" series is entertaining. Waiting on the interview loading.. internet is sloooow. PS I also bought Magicka based on his 25 min tutorial vid...
Also he's a Geordie and if he spoke like he probably spoke growing up (I live an hour away so my accent is similar) people would complain about it too, probably a lot more.
TB seems like a cool dude and I can't understand why Incontrol likes to troll and make fun of him yet the second someone on the forum or chat does the same to Incontrol he gets mad about it and starts insulting, and calling people trolls.
Also I'd like to state that I find Incontrol most of the time really funny so don't start calling hater or whatnot
I feel like TB receives alot of shit that he doesn't deserve. Imo his interest in SC2 is genuine and as he has said several times he makes money of WoW and not sc2. Just check the amount of viewers he gets on his videos and you'll see that SC2 gets far less.
On February 27 2011 22:07 Bergys wrote: I feel like TB receives alot of shit that he doesn't deserve. Imo his interest in SC2 is genuine and as he has said several times he makes money of WoW and not sc2. Just check the amount of viewers he gets on his videos and you'll see that SC2 gets far less.
On February 27 2011 22:07 Bergys wrote: I feel like TB receives alot of shit that he doesn't deserve. Imo his interest in SC2 is genuine and as he has said several times he makes money of WoW and not sc2. Just check the amount of viewers he gets on his videos and you'll see that SC2 gets far less.
TB is the best if you don't like him well you losing a lot he makes everything entertaining even incontrol's harsh jokes, I mean the way he reacts to him, love him, I'd do anything to support him, well ill do the best I can.
I rarely view TBs casts; never on youtube but sometimes when he casts on streams of important events (I find his lack analytical skill too severe for my liking). But as a regular listener of SOTG and a reader of the TL forums I felt I could listen to this for a while, and I must say he excelled in his knowledge and insight in commentating. He knew his weakness, his strength and I felt he answered the questions in the interview about casting (this part was particularly good) and esports very well. Ironically he would probably add to NASLs production if he were a play-by-play co-caster along with the color casters.
I've added some statements of TotalBiscuit that might get burried in the thread to the OP so that everybody that wants to reply is up to date, timestamp of the interview upcoming done
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
He said on a podcast that his voice is a mix of Welsh Scottish and "Regular" english. I don't remember all the details but it was this freak build order of dialects
On February 27 2011 02:38 Aberu wrote: Yes we are missing out on someone who knew as much about Starcraft as some random person that could be pulled off the street when he started casting.
Not an insult, just he didn't exist in the community of Starcraft until he saw potential dollar signs in SC2, and less potential dollar signs in WoW. There's no problem with that, he has a very professional voice, is very creative, and is good at what he does for the most part. He is a professional, he went where the viewers went. But most people have a problem with that, there are casters who have been around in Starcraft when there was no point other than sacrificing your own time for free for something you love, and there are brand new casters who came in because they saw potentially being the next husky or HD. Aka $$$. Now they aren't rich, just they are doing something they like to do (talk about games), and getting paid for it.
EDIT: Just so you know, I listened to total biscuit back in the day on warcraft radio when he first started out. I like his work quite a bit.
He said himself numerous times that there are more viewers, listeners and site hits for his WoW content that there is for his StarCraft II content. So it is clearly not true that he does SCII content for the money.
He does it because he likes SCII and that reflects in his casting. That is one of the reason I love his SCII casts.
Now that is not saying that he would not like to do the SCII stuff on a more commercial basis. I think he obviously would. He is promoting the game well and is good at getting sponsors to support it, which is great for everybody as far as I can see.
I love totalbiscuit. I enjoyed the games he's casted and I love him to death. If he reads this thread, TB. Haters gonna hate. Do what you love and don't let anybody get in your way of doing that.
So just a question then, but why do you care so much what people here say about you? If you don't want to be liked by this demographic, and your product is explicitly not targeted towards it, why do you get so involved in drama including it? Just my opinion, but I feel like if you're going to be a public personality, you should be a little more thick skinned about it. Don't get so involved whenever anyone says anything bad about you. For example, watching and commenting in this thread is probably a bad idea. When people from this site and this community make fun of you - which will happen inevitably, as long as you are part of SC2 - you should not get involved, because that makes it a BFD when it doesn't have to be.
In other words, don't make a product which is explicitly not for this community, and then expect this community to love you for it.
I'm not sure why you're asking me why I'd want a community I'm an active part of, not to despise me. That seems fairly obvious.
Not a fan of apathy either. 'Just ignore it and it'll go away' only works on children and house pets.
I think an issue many people have is that they forget that TotalBiscuit, like the rest of us, is human (derp) -- And being a professional doesn't give you thick skin or invulnerability to insulting comments. Nothing wrong with standing up for yourself.
On February 28 2011 10:04 myPlums wrote: I just can't take him seriously. And I had to give him the boot off of my twitter because he tweets literally every other minute.
myPlums stopped following me on Twitter?
Better drink my own piss.
Edit : Whoops, sorry mods, I was making a Reddit joke, it wasn't meant to offend.
On February 28 2011 10:04 myPlums wrote: I just can't take him seriously. And I had to give him the boot off of my twitter because he tweets literally every other minute.
On February 27 2011 03:39 Faria wrote: It's weird, I'm English and find TB's accent harder to listen to than kellymilkies, no one talks like that - it's not natural :<
spot on.
hate it, makes me cringe.
He seems like a slightly cooler than average guy judging by the interview, but i couldnt manage more than 10 mins of it, i just kept skipping it on.
Hope he brings more attention to sc2 and has fun along the way
I first saw TB extremely early in the SC2 beta and I've since watched pretty much everything on his channel, SC2 related, WoW related, and everything else. Always great quality, always interesting. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything he does, but he's one of the most professional people out there in the e-sports scene, and nothing any of the idiot trolls here or anywhere else can change that.
On February 28 2011 14:20 deth2munkies wrote: I first saw TB extremely early in the SC2 beta and I've since watched pretty much everything on his channel, SC2 related, WoW related, and everything else. Always great quality, always interesting. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything he does, but he's one of the most professional people out there in the e-sports scene, and nothing any of the idiot trolls here or anywhere else can change that.
Keep on trucking dude, we love ya.
^^ Oh so true. Summed up what I should have posted.
In my opinion, if there's a TotalBiscuit, there should be a PartialCrumpet.
In any case, great interview. I don't agree with everything he said, but we're in different situations and thus we have different perspectives.
It's a shame that great personalities have to think of the bottom-line to live. I wish they could do what they wanted to do and be sustained by their pure presence and not direction ):
Huge fan and my girlfriend from Leeds/West Yorkshire is too :3
TotalBiscuit is a good guy and does things for E-Sports. In the end, there are more people who support him, even in teamliquid, than the haters. Haters primarily consist of people who also hate Husky and HD, and post derogatory comments about Kelly milkies.
Why can't people want other people who aren't veterans to succeed? This is what I don't understand.
On February 28 2011 10:04 myPlums wrote: I just can't take him seriously. And I had to give him the boot off of my twitter because he tweets literally every other minute.
Also he's a Geordie and if he spoke like he probably spoke growing up (I live an hour away so my accent is similar) people would complain about it too, probably a lot more.
This, people say kelly should change her accent but it would be nothing compared to a full on geordie accent if he unleashed it on you. Eastenders had subtitles put on it in the US and thats the queens english in comparison.
So he puts on what we call a radio voice for clarity.
On February 28 2011 16:14 adeezy wrote: TotalBiscuit is a good guy and does things for E-Sports. In the end, there are more people who support him, even in teamliquid, than the haters. Haters primarily consist of people who also hate Husky and HD, and post derogatory comments about Kelly milkies.
Why can't people want other people who aren't veterans to succeed? This is what I don't understand.
Stop using the word "hater" please. It is counterproductive, because it "enrages the other side". Sadly TB used that quite a lot himself and that is one of his faults, but it prevents people from getting convinced by the other side and usually results only in flame wars.
It is somewhat acceptable for TB to use that term on his own show because only supporters will listen to him but in threads like this it is extremely counterproductive. In recent threads anyone who even voiced some criticism has been declared as a "hater" and that is a really bad inflatory use of the term.
On February 28 2011 16:14 adeezy wrote: TotalBiscuit is a good guy and does things for E-Sports. In the end, there are more people who support him, even in teamliquid, than the haters. Haters primarily consist of people who also hate Husky and HD, and post derogatory comments about Kelly milkies.
Why can't people want other people who aren't veterans to succeed? This is what I don't understand.
Stop using the word "hater" please. It is counterproductive, because it "enrages the other side". Sadly TB used that quite a lot himself and that is one of his faults, but it prevents people from getting convinced by the other side and usually results only in flame wars.
It is somewhat acceptable for TB to use that term on his own show because only supporters will listen to him but in threads like this it is extremely counterproductive. In recent threads anyone who even voiced some criticism has been declared as a "hater" and that is a really bad inflatory use of the term.
I don't know man, I'll stop using the word when they cease to exist, which is probably never. Even forum veterans here have haters and the haters won't deny it, neither will the veterans. Just check out reddit and you'll see people making up lies or just finding reasons to talk shit about someone. Why do you think HuK did that ceremony in his GSL win. Because there's a lot of shit talkers, synonymous to haters out there who just want to rag on people. I don't wanna get too off topic with the examples but I just know TotalBiscuit has had his share of unfair criticism. I was talking about this in another thread but there's a thin line between criticism and being derogatory, especially in these forums.
Actually in general I don't know why you're arguing about this word, as if they don't exist, they definitely do and TB has replied to some of them in this thread with obvious rebuttals. He's definitely up there with me.
So just a question then, but why do you care so much what people here say about you? If you don't want to be liked by this demographic, and your product is explicitly not targeted towards it, why do you get so involved in drama including it? Just my opinion, but I feel like if you're going to be a public personality, you should be a little more thick skinned about it. Don't get so involved whenever anyone says anything bad about you. For example, watching and commenting in this thread is probably a bad idea. When people from this site and this community make fun of you - which will happen inevitably, as long as you are part of SC2 - you should not get involved, because that makes it a BFD when it doesn't have to be.
In other words, don't make a product which is explicitly not for this community, and then expect this community to love you for it.
I'm not sure why you're asking me why I'd want a community I'm an active part of, not to despise me. That seems fairly obvious.
Not a fan of apathy either. 'Just ignore it and it'll go away' only works on children and house pets.
I must agree on this, that statement is just horribly simplified. Maybe you should bother listening to the interview, TB says he loves to be in this community and therefor of course cares what people think about him, apart from if they like the product he delivers...
On February 28 2011 16:14 adeezy wrote: TotalBiscuit is a good guy and does things for E-Sports. In the end, there are more people who support him, even in teamliquid, than the haters. Haters primarily consist of people who also hate Husky and HD, and post derogatory comments about Kelly milkies.
Why can't people want other people who aren't veterans to succeed? This is what I don't understand.
Stop using the word "hater" please. It is counterproductive, because it "enrages the other side". Sadly TB used that quite a lot himself and that is one of his faults, but it prevents people from getting convinced by the other side and usually results only in flame wars.
It is somewhat acceptable for TB to use that term on his own show because only supporters will listen to him but in threads like this it is extremely counterproductive. In recent threads anyone who even voiced some criticism has been declared as a "hater" and that is a really bad inflatory use of the term.
I don't know man, I'll stop using the word when they cease to exist, which is probably never. Even forum veterans here have haters and the haters won't deny it, neither will the veterans. Just check out reddit and you'll see people making up lies or just finding reasons to talk shit about someone. Why do you think HuK did that ceremony in his GSL win. Because there's a lot of shit talkers, synonymous to haters out there who just want to rag on people. I don't wanna get too off topic with the examples but I just know TotalBiscuit has had his share of unfair criticism. I was talking about this in another thread but there's a thin line between criticism and being derogatory, especially in these forums.
Actually in general I don't know why you're arguing about this word, as if they don't exist, they definitely do and TB has replied to some of them in this thread with obvious rebuttals. He's definitely up there with me.
So you are arrogant enough to be able to judge from some written comment if someone is HATING blindly or just CRITICISING legitimately? Sure there are some for whom this seems obvious, but they usually get some "red line" courtesy of the moderators at the bottom of their posts. Most uses of the word "hater" here on this forum are just plain wrong and unproven.
Suit yourself but judging by looks is one of the faults of mankind which it needs to get rid of. Personally I think we need a lot more humility ...
I am arguing about this word in the same way people probably argued about the mass useage of the word "fuck" for everything ... totally disregarding the real meaning of the word. Personally I feel insulted by the word "hater" for two reasons: 1. I have an opinion and that is NOT the same as hate even if it contrary to someone elses and 2. people using words like this in an inflationary amount seem quite dumb to me and dumb people are an insult to humanity. Yes, I admit to being insulted by the stupidity of humanity.
There are sooo many swear words and rather colorful phrases in the english language and restricting yourself to "fuck" is kinda limitng your variety of speech and probably intelligence as well. Just keep your speech as colorful as it can be and if you are missing swear words check out this video ...
P.S.: I may differ from you in opinion, but I dont hate you. I dont even know you and hate would be a total waste of emotion. PP.S.: Check my signature and then think about the importance of a wide variety of words in your vocabulary ...
It's not a matter of arrogance than pointing out the blatant obvious. If what you were saying was correct then TeamLiquid wouldn't be able to have temp banned most of the users who have been before. I think you just have a personal pet peeve about the word hater. It's used pretty loosely and to say people who use it are an insult to humanity is highly sensitive. Especially sensitive considering you are saying this in a gaming forum where in games trash talk is especially prominent. Now the way you are telling me to think about the "importance of variety in my vocabulary" and the such comes 10x more arrogant than me saying I can tell if someone is being a hater vs a constructive critic.
I honestly find TB to be one of the more exciting casters. Especially since he casts himself playing - silver league - with all his mistakes and everything. I'm masters, so not learning anything from him, but it's just overall a hell lot of fun :D
About his accent - I love it (^_^)
About him doing WoW stuff... I haven't seen too much of it,but having played wow earlier I find it good. And alot more dedicating to the community than those who do nothing (98%) or make arena vids (1,5%)... Yes, those numbers are made up - but I think it's about right.
TB certainly isn't my cup of tea, but I very much appreciate the attention he brings in the form of new players. Yes, his casting is very obvious, play-by-play with very little insight as to "why" but he said it himself, his target audience isn't the diamond-level players. Its the bronze rookies and total newbies that make up an enormous portion of SC2 Players and (god forbid) other e-sports players
He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
On February 28 2011 19:11 NotJack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
i agree with you for 100%. I dont like his castingstyle, thats opinion based. But if there is action on more than 1 place on the map, he missis it most of the time. For example, a PvT, T push in the middle with a blue flame helion drop in the main. And after the fight when he brings up the unit tab, he sees P has much less workers, he sometimes goes "there must has been a drop or something" and even sometimes he doesnt see it at all.
I like what he does for sc2, but i think alot of people who whatch him, husky and people like day9 for that matter, like to watch/hear the person and not the players playing. ( not judging, not flaming, just noticing.)
On February 28 2011 19:11 NotJack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That sounds a little condescending. People watch tournaments to be entertained and in depth analysis isn't required to be entertaining. He knows what he's talking about, most of the time (and he only talks about aspects of the game that he actually understands) and tbh, it's pretty rude telling him he should "never be directly involved in e sports".
On February 28 2011 19:25 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Notjack's point of view.
On February 28 2011 19:25 Painting wrote: That sounds a little condescending. People watch tournaments to be entertained and in depth analysis isn't required to be entertaining. He knows what he's talking about, most of the time (and he only talks about aspects of the game that he actually understands) and tbh, it's pretty rude telling him he should "never be directly involved in e sports".
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
he was actually defending you there TB.
Interview made me want to maybe tune in to one a those european tourneys you'll be casting. gj so far anyways.
On February 28 2011 21:03 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
he was actually defending you there TB.
I wasn't responding to him, I was responding to the guy he responded to
Edit : And now looking at it I screwed up the quotes, whoops! Corrected.
On February 28 2011 21:03 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
On February 28 2011 21:03 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
he was actually defending you there TB.
I wasn't responding to him, I was responding to the guy he responded to
Edit : And now looking at it I screwed up the quotes, whoops! Corrected.
Ah that good ode miss information virus again, easy to catch
And don't forget contagious. It requires immediate treatment before it spreads to others.
Really like your stuff TB, especially your coverage of the cataclysm beta was awesome! I havn't seen much of your SC2 casts yet, but I hope to in the future. Keep it up!
TB is an awesome caster for the (what I would consider) unique approach to the game. Makes for great entertainment and keeps the casting fresh. He will only get better as time goes on if he keeps with casting SC2.
On February 28 2011 19:25 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Notjack's point of view.
Given the fact that you're aware of your demographic, and you cast SC2 for fun while WoW is where the money's at, it would seem contradictory that you wouldn't turn down offers. My original statement wasn't meaning all tournaments though; the majority of casts don't require a hardcore caster to please most of the audience. That said many do.
I do hope TB Keeps casting, he definitely has a way of keeping things exiting. One question for you TB, as I see you're lurking this thread;
I'm guessing (my guess, not a fact!) you normally don't prepare a lot for a cast (I remember usually you don't for example Blue plz) do you ever care to change this, as I think that's a big way of improving your already highly entertaining casts, for example knowing players back stories, rivalries, preferred builds etc. It doesn't need to be superanalytical as you're more of a color commentator as I understand, but a little bit more of a solid back story (well at least for important matches) would certainly help your SC2 casts
Like a lot of people said, he's not the most in-depth caster but he's certainly one, if not the, most entertaining caster. He's like Husky in a way, appealing more to the casual audience than the hardcore vets. I myself don't play the game that much, but I watch A LOT of streams/GSL/vods etc, so it's always good to hear someone who gets excited about the game.
I find it hard to believe that you cannot find TB's commentary not fun to watch compared to other casters.
Me and my mates sit there and watch him and laugh in hysterics every time he casts a tournament. Maybe to do with the British side of sarcastic tongue / humor..and as Bloodash has just said, his exciting! I don't want another same accented person with a different overlay just commentating whats happening..You never know what tb is going to do something wacky next with his 'fresh' casts.
Also, just like to add - Cheers to TB for the Shout-Outs. It all makes it worthwhile
On February 28 2011 21:03 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
On February 28 2011 21:03 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
he was actually defending you there TB.
I wasn't responding to him, I was responding to the guy he responded to
Edit : And now looking at it I screwed up the quotes, whoops! Corrected.
Im a little confused, I defended you in my post.
Yeah I know and I quoted the wrong guy, I was meant to be quoting Notjack.
On February 28 2011 21:03 Notjack wrote: He is good for e-sports, but should never be directly involved in e-sports. As long as he keeps commentating games on his own time away from tournaments, there is nothing negative about his contributions.
That's one wish I can't fulfil. I get more tournament offers these days than I can physically cast. Obviously the organisers disagree with Painting's point of view.
he was actually defending you there TB.
I wasn't responding to him, I was responding to the guy he responded to
Edit : And now looking at it I screwed up the quotes, whoops! Corrected.
Im a little confused, I defended you in my post.
Yeah I know and I quoted the wrong guy, I was meant to be quoting Notjack.
For convenience, I've extracted the audio track and converted it to a 128kbps mp3 file to be able to listen to this interview in the car tomorrow! I suppose this could be useful to others as well so I share it with you guys (54 MB file) : SCreddit - TotalBiscuitInterview.mp3
One thing TB said in the interview really bothered me. He was comparing esports to real sports in terms of casting. He said in traditional sports, people watched for the play-by-play, not the analysis. Fuck that, people watch for the game. I`d mute the two idiots my local pro sports team hired if I could, but I can`t bacause I`d miss important calls from the refs then too. I think casters provide a great service to the community and am very greatful, but the community needs to re-evaluate their priorities, the players and the games being played are why we`re alll here. We spend too much time worrying about casting, and not enough appreciating the people actually playing, which is a total 180 from any other sport.
Really e-sports are not like real sports, especially in how casters present the material. People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited, and people who do understand Basketball don't need a commentator at all.
People who don't understand Starcraft (which is a much higher % then those for those other sports) need a commentator to teach them how to get excited; people who understand need them to properly observe.
On March 01 2011 08:42 NotJack wrote: Really e-sports are not like real sports, especially in how casters present the material. People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited, and people who do understand Basketball don't need a commentator at all.
People who don't understand Starcraft (which is a much higher % then those for those other sports) need a commentator to teach them how to get excited; people who understand need them to properly observe.
I disagree. As a huge basketball and Starcraft fan, I can tell you the play by play and color commentary greatly impact how much I enjoy both. I understand basketball quite well, but a good commentator will not only understand it better, but also have access to information I would not. Here is a great example of a commentator making a quite exciting moment significantly more exciting.
Of course a commentator raising his voice will increase the excitement, but a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move.
Starcraft commentators need to explain how a good response or good building placement or even more obvious things like good micro is entertaining, for the casuals because they don't know, and for the veterans because they aren't in the game watching freely.
TotalBiscuit comparing E-sports commentating to sports commentating is interesting. One thing to note though is if you are watching it live in the stadium, there is no commentating, you just watch it. This isn't the case for E-Sports. A lot of the reason for commentary and casting originates back to when a lot of people used to just listen to the radio to hear what's going on in the game. Now there is a difference between radio reporting and TV casting but they are very similar. If you were listening to just TV commentary I'm sure you would know exactly how the game is progressing. However if you listen to just Audio commentary of E-sports games, it isn't always apparent what is going on. You may argue that this isn't necessary. As far as analysis goes, there is pre-game analysis, half time analysis, and post game analysis for games.
As for sports casting, it doesnt affect me enjoying the game, its the game itself. I would say the same for E-sports casting. To be honest my favorite Caster was Jason Lee. I personally don't need game analysis every moment of a game because I can do analysis of myself anyways, but it's definitely welcomed to get a casters opinion on how things will end out.
The role of a starcraft commentator isn't really defined for me, I can't honestly what role they play for me when I watch the game. Interesting to think about....
On March 01 2011 08:42 NotJack wrote: Really e-sports are not like real sports, especially in how casters present the material. People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited, and people who do understand Basketball don't need a commentator at all.
People who don't understand Starcraft (which is a much higher % then those for those other sports) need a commentator to teach them how to get excited; people who understand need them to properly observe.
This is once again not really based in fact. I'm fairly sure commentators in real sports don't get paid as much as they do, for a service that nobody actually needs.
This particularly is puzzling
People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited
This is the exact opposite of the truth. They absolutely do need one. If we go back to eSports for a second, how do you explain non-players enjoying my/Huskys/other play-by-play guys material yet not the material of other, more analytical commentators. Magic?
The evidence is right there, people do enjoy this kind of commentary, in large numbers, yet are either casual or non-players. It obviously enthuses them, that's not even up for discussion.
Once again I disagree. You say, "a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move". Scoring in basketball is the most basic thing that can happen, and as a result of course we don't need someone telling us that was a good move, but it makes it more exciting and enjoyable. Similary in Starcraft we don't need any commentary to understand it was a good move when a group of marines gets killed by banelings, or a ton of workers get roasted by hellions, but it sure is more exciting when Artosis yells, "Soo many banelings". The basic elements of basketball and Starcraft can be understood by anyone, in basketball you need to score and in Starcraft you need to kill the other guy.
In fact basketball and Starcraft are very similar in what new and experienced fans are looking for from commentators.
Someone new to basketball is only going to be listening to and digesting basic things from the commentators. Basic rules explanations (how FTs work, how scoring works, what fouls mean etc), generalized strategies (the Suns like to shoot 3s, the Celtics are very defensive minded, etc), and only learning the names of the biggest players.
Someone new to Starcraft is similarly only going to listen to and digest basic things also. How the game works (3 different races, supply, how buildings make units), generalized strategies (Zerg makes lots of units, Protoss units are strong and expensive, Terrans make marines etc), and only learning what the different basic units are.
In both cases the excitement the play by play commentator generates is very important to keeping someone with limited understanding interested long enough to become and expert.
In the case of someone who knows a lot about Starcraft or basketball this once again holds true.
When I watch a basketball game I am looking for Doug Collins, or Hubie Brown to explain to me what specific changes the the Knicks are going to make defensively to deal with Dwight Howard. I want them to point out when a team is rotating late on defensive or when a team is double teaming or not double teaming a specific player and I want to know why. Even though I understand basketball well enough to watch it without commentary, I still get a lot of information from the commentators.
Similarly once again, when I watch Starcraft I am looking for Artosis to tell me how someone might change their play style because they are going up against Idra. I want Day9 to point out when someone isn't spreading their creep well, or has full chronoboost on their nexus. Even though I understand Starcraft well enough to watch without commentary, it is still more enjoyable with this high level commentary.
If you watch soccer, or football w/e, dominant commentary is play by play, on who currently has the ball, which player the ball is being passed to, who caused the foul and the goal moments. Technical analysis only comes after a play has been done.
The most popular Korean commentators are mostly play by play and for a good reason. They follow this soccer model where their primary focus is play by play, and follow it up with small analysis whenever a crucial play happens. In the west, we have yet to see this kind of style yet (Day9 sort of is but still not quite there) done successfully, and this is kind of commentary in my opinion, that is going to open up esports to the mainstream. These guys make starcraft easy to understand, (Why do you think there are so many female viewers of esports in Korea?) build up excitement, all the while adding some analysis here and there.
It all flows naturally instead of what we see most of the time in the west, where "High level commentary" means constant analysis of the game which actually turns off casual viewers because it counteracts the excitement factor. When you know everything that's probably going to happen, it is no longer entertaining for the average viewers, and it may even confuse them.
It's almost pathetic to see how a commentator's "ability" is judged based on how well he can predict game play in the west. It is important to have this kind of ability, but it should not be the main focus.
Actually when you watch soccer, or football w/e, technical analysis is delivered throughout the game before and after plays happen exactly like in Starcraft.
On March 01 2011 10:05 diophant wrote: Actually when you watch soccer, or football w/e, technical analysis is delivered throughout the game before and after plays happen exactly like in Starcraft.
But play by play is still much more dominant. What do you think an average viewer finds more exciting, some analysis of formation/strategy a team is using, or that guy going "Messi to Chavez..Chavez..back to messi..MESSI SHOOTS! GOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLL" at the back?
When commentating any sport play by play is the De facto dominant form of commentary. What do you think an average viewer finds more exciting, some analysis of formation/strategy a player is using or a guy going, SOOOO MANY BANELINGS!?
The flow of your average broadcast sport commentary is play-by-play when relevant (which depending on the sport will usually be the majority of the time), analysis and colour during downtime. This is also how it should operate in SC2. Analysis should be done in the lulls, play-by-play should take up the airtime where anything of immediate significance is happening. This should be done by a commentary team with the strongest, most broadcast-friendly voice taking the lead as play-by-play.
On March 01 2011 08:42 NotJack wrote: Really e-sports are not like real sports, especially in how casters present the material. People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited, and people who do understand Basketball don't need a commentator at all.
People who don't understand Starcraft (which is a much higher % then those for those other sports) need a commentator to teach them how to get excited; people who understand need them to properly observe.
This is once again not really based in fact. I'm fairly sure commentators in real sports don't get paid as much as they do, for a service that nobody actually needs.
People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited
This is the exact opposite of the truth. They absolutely do need one. If we go back to eSports for a second, how do you explain non-players enjoying my/Huskys/other play-by-play guys material yet not the material of other, more analytical commentators. Magic?
The evidence is right there, people do enjoy this kind of commentary, in large numbers, yet are either casual or non-players. It obviously enthuses them, that's not even up for discussion.
Saying something is true doesn't always make it so. When someone goes to a basketball game without knowing anything about it, they won't hear commentators and many of them enjoy the game because of the spectacle. If that happened with a gsl or live tournament for starcraft, non-players wouldn't know what the spectacle is, and thus not be entertained. The difference is very clear.
You don't have to look past the commentating format of live games to understand that e-sports and sports are different mediums of entertainment. This is the very reason commentators are given so much more attention with e-sports; because when they are better, SC is significantly better represented. John Madden has been stating that scoring points is a good strategy in football for years and no one minds because the importance is not the same.
Also you have a pattern of misquoting/misunderstanding posts. It's not surprising people prefer your casting to other styles. I would even say it's easier to understand why people prefer non-player casting as opposed to detailed analysis, but that doesn't mean it should be the way tournaments represent their gameplay.
On March 01 2011 08:59 NotJack wrote: You're missing the point.
Of course a commentator raising his voice will increase the excitement, but a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move.
Starcraft commentators need to explain how a good response or good building placement or even more obvious things like good micro is entertaining, for the casuals because they don't know, and for the veterans because they aren't in the game watching freely.
The shoutcaster/analyst model must be a staple for any E-Sport to flourish. As players, we may be able to understand numerous concepts in the games we play. However, a few years down the road when E-Sports has gained in popularity; your average viewer isn't going to have the knowledge that we have.
As much as many hardcore players in this community thirst for that constant hardcore analysis style of commentating. This model simply not work in the main stream... We must recognize that fact.
On March 01 2011 08:59 NotJack wrote: You're missing the point.
Of course a commentator raising his voice will increase the excitement, but a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move.
Starcraft commentators need to explain how a good response or good building placement or even more obvious things like good micro is entertaining, for the casuals because they don't know, and for the veterans because they aren't in the game watching freely.
What?
Firstly, why would a "veteran", as you say, need a commentator to tell them certain moves were good because they aren't "in the game watching freely" -- I'm sorry but that makes no sense.
Secondly, off topic -- "Casual" is a term that is tossed around frequently and misused. It doesn't mean that they're stupid or not in the know.
Firstly, it makes plenty of sense; no matter how much you know about the game, when you're watching the GSL you need someone with similiar knowledge in Korea pointing out the aspects of the game.
Secondly, you're the one thinking casual was used with a negative connotation. Just because they're less knowledgeable then someone who decides to specialize in sc2 doesn't take anything away from their lives. It is however necessary to show the difference when making points about the difference.
On March 01 2011 08:59 NotJack wrote: You're missing the point.
Of course a commentator raising his voice will increase the excitement, but a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move.
Starcraft commentators need to explain how a good response or good building placement or even more obvious things like good micro is entertaining, for the casuals because they don't know, and for the veterans because they aren't in the game watching freely.
What?
Firstly, why would a "veteran", as you say, need a commentator to tell them certain moves were good because they aren't "in the game watching freely" -- I'm sorry but that makes no sense.
Secondly, off topic -- "Casual" is a term that is tossed around frequently and misused. It doesn't mean that they're stupid or not in the know.
Firstly, it makes plenty of sense; no matter how much you know about the game, when you're watching the GSL you need someone with similiar knowledge in Korea pointing out the aspects of the game.
Secondly, you're the one thinking casual was used with a negative connotation. Just because they're less knowledgeable then someone who decides to specialize in sc2 doesn't take anything away from their lives. It is however necessary to show the difference when making points about the difference.
I understand what you mean but your wording was off. I thought you meant "players who know what's good and bad need to be told what's good and bad"
Play by play commentators like Husky and TB + experienced analysis like Day9, any pro player makes for the best combo. Hopefully we will see that kind casting crew at the NASL,
On March 01 2011 08:59 NotJack wrote: You're missing the point.
Of course a commentator raising his voice will increase the excitement, but a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move.
Starcraft commentators need to explain how a good response or good building placement or even more obvious things like good micro is entertaining, for the casuals because they don't know, and for the veterans because they aren't in the game watching freely.
You are also missing a point. Watching a basketball game as sitting in the stadium is not the same as watching an esports game via stream or even live event, it is more like having a spec spot (like on WaaghTV or HLTV), you are comparing apples and grapes with some of you're arguments. Compare commentated content with commentated content or not commentated with not commentated, don't mix them up to make your point.
On March 01 2011 08:42 NotJack wrote: Really e-sports are not like real sports, especially in how casters present the material. People who don't understand Basketball don't need a commentator to get them excited, and people who do understand Basketball don't need a commentator at all.
People who don't understand Starcraft (which is a much higher % then those for those other sports) need a commentator to teach them how to get excited; people who understand need them to properly observe.
I disagree. As a huge basketball and Starcraft fan, I can tell you the play by play and color commentary greatly impact how much I enjoy both. I understand basketball quite well, but a good commentator will not only understand it better, but also have access to information I would not. Here is a great example of a commentator making a quite exciting moment significantly more exciting.
I was hoping you would link one of Marv Albert's many "YES" moments, especially during the Jordan era. =)
On March 01 2011 08:59 NotJack wrote: You're missing the point.
Of course a commentator raising his voice will increase the excitement, but a basketball commentator doesn't need to say that someone jumping 10 feet in the air to dunk is a good move.
Starcraft commentators need to explain how a good response or good building placement or even more obvious things like good micro is entertaining, for the casuals because they don't know, and for the veterans because they aren't in the game watching freely.
You are also missing a point. Watching a basketball game as sitting in the stadium is not the same as watching an esports game via stream or even live event, it is more like having a spec spot (like on WaaghTV or HLTV), you are comparing apples and grapes with some of you're arguments. Compare commentated content with commentated content or not commentated with not commentated, don't mix them up to make your point.
Yeah I was about say this.
The spectacle is being amongst a shitload of cheering fans, being carried on the wave of emotion and excitement. You do not get that outside of a stadium environment and as a result you need a commentator to convey that excitement which you are missing by not being there.
I like TB's accent. It's better than the americanization of the language which is brutally raping it.
I haven't spent alot of time with all the drama surrounding TB but frankly who cares that much? He's good for SC2, no one can deny that. He brings people in and that is what matters at the moment to be honest.
He might no appeal to everyone, nor does he have to. I like him at times.
Something that InControl and other prominent figures in the SC2 community really need to stop doing is spewing shit on people when it's not needed. I love InControls humour I really do and I love him for bashing on things but sadly every time he does the crowd goes apeshit about it and blows it out or proportion.
I was somewhat unsure how to begin this paragraph, but here goes.
A lot of people do not seem to realize just how helpful having a good "play-by-play" caster is in a casting duo/for a small tournament. As a relatively new caster I have found that it is a LOT easier to find a good analyst then to find a good shout caster. Personally I try to stick to a more analytical style, pointing out the good decisions and explaining the logic behind certain moves, as opposed to a shout casting style because it is a lot easier to commit to and do well. To be a good analyst you really just have to have a decent vocabulary, read the forums(sometimes you should ignore this point), watch the high level gameplay (GSL, IEM, TSL etcetc), and have a decent understanding of the game. To be a good shout caster means having true feeling in your voice, you have to be able to bring the excitement that you feel for a certain move or game to the audience. Total biscuit, in my opinion, is a great shout caster because he can bring his excitement to the audience so clearly. He has sub-par analytic skills when it comes to sc2 but he brings something that a good analyst can rarely bring, a sense of energy beyond the basic that involves the average audience member in the excitement.
Also, this audio clip was a very entertaining and insightful listen. While I sometimes may not enjoy listening to his casts, or that of other shout casters, I still believe that he is an important person in the starcraft 2 current commentating field and anything that allows me to gain a greater knowledge of who he is and what he does is a good thing.
I have the SC2 Casts app on my iPhone.. I watch a cast every single morning while I wait for the shower to warm up.. If given the option, i ALWAYS choose a TB game.. I've been playing SC for 13 years so I'd consder myself someone who isn't new to the game so while I don't fit his typical demographic, I enjoy his casts more than anyone else.. He is funny and does a good job with the play by play aspect of the game. I do not understand for the life of me the negative attitudes towards TB.. If I were sponsoring an event, he would be my caster of choice just for the sheer fact that he is entertaining to listen to.. Does he know as much as day[9]? No.. but that doesn't mean he isn't a good caster..
Keep it up TB, you have a ton of fans both here and outside TL..
On March 01 2011 10:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: The flow of your average broadcast sport commentary is play-by-play when relevant (which depending on the sport will usually be the majority of the time), analysis and colour during downtime. This is also how it should operate in SC2. Analysis should be done in the lulls, play-by-play should take up the airtime where anything of immediate significance is happening. This should be done by a commentary team with the strongest, most broadcast-friendly voice taking the lead as play-by-play.
On March 01 2011 10:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: The flow of your average broadcast sport commentary is play-by-play when relevant (which depending on the sport will usually be the majority of the time), analysis and colour during downtime. This is also how it should operate in SC2. Analysis should be done in the lulls, play-by-play should take up the airtime where anything of immediate significance is happening. This should be done by a commentary team with the strongest, most broadcast-friendly voice taking the lead as play-by-play.
And you think YOU have that voice eh????
I'd agree. =)
I'm nowhere near the level I want to be when it comes to broadcast technique, I cringe everytime I make an error in enunciation or slip on a word (no doubt some of you do too). Maybe someday.
keep up the good work TB!!when we watch you we dont only have the game (that sometime is boring when its turtle or not top tier players)but we have a "show" too . Samething as the casting archon , with your own style
What's hilarious is that TB, Husky, and HD bring people to this game on a daily basis. And some oldschool players seem confused and don't realize this is WONDERFUL for the community. Not every player is going to be masters/pro level; but not many people are going to play long after the game is brand new, if there isn't something entertaining about it.
There seems to be a lot of people that need to get off their high horse and realize that more people enjoying the game is a good thing. So you're better than all of the noobs watching TB or Husky. Grats! Now step back for a second and think. More people involved in E-sports = more people supporting the thing we all love.
STFU with your complaints about casters unless you can cast better and get more viewers.
On March 02 2011 18:52 Bazing wrote: What's hilarious is that TB, Husky, and HD bring people to this game on a daily basis. And some oldschool players seem confused and don't realize this is WONDERFUL for the community. Not every player is going to be masters/pro level; but not many people are going to play long after the game is brand new, if there isn't something entertaining about it.
There seems to be a lot of people that need to get off their high horse and realize that more people enjoying the game is a good thing. So you're better than all of the noobs watching TB or Husky. Grats! Now step back for a second and think. More people involved in E-sports = more people supporting the thing we all love.
STFU with your complaints about casters unless you can cast better and get more viewers.
I agree with this (except for the last sentence). When I first started playing SC2 (I played broodwar way back when it came out but I was nowhere near good), I actually learned a lot from casters like TB! If at that point I would have watched Artosis or PsY, I would have been discouraged. What people don't realize is that there is A LOT that you can learn from play-by-play commentary, it's just that when you get better, those things become like second nature to you so you don't think about them anymore.
I do find Husky, TB, and HD boring now as I have moved up the ladder, but I am extremely grateful that they do exist as I only got there because they got me started. They offer a valid contribution to the community and that should be recognized.
Often if someone just purchased SC2 and asks how he can win a game since the opponent rushes him within the first minutes, leaving him no chance to build any sizable army, he get the advise to watch Day[9]. But even the Dailies for the beginners are targeting to Silver league players at least.
But one can recommend TotalBiscuits "I suck at Starcraft 2" because TB really explains from the very beginning. I think the "suck@sc2" series is a great contribution to get the community growing.
TB not only shows passion for SC2, he is also able to share it and to "infect" other people to play the game.
On March 03 2011 00:02 KallWest wrote: I do find Husky, TB, and HD boring now as I have moved up the ladder, but I am extremely grateful that they do exist as I only got there because they got me started. They offer a valid contribution to the community and that should be recognized.
Agreed, I remember watching through hours and hours of their videos when I was new to the game. I was a huge fan of Husky's until I started really following e-sports and all of the tournaments. It's hard to believe someone is really into expanding e-sports knows so little about what's happening in the GSL, some of the larger tournaments and doesn't recognize some of the great players. Maybe he's really busy, but I feel like someone that wants to help expand e-sports would keep up with all the big tournaments, know most of top tier players from at least EU/US. The last Husky video I watched was an Adelscott game in which Husky thought Adel was a clan. Maybe AS isn't too mainstream, but I learned and recognized who Adel was pretty early on. I can't help but think Husky is into for more money any more, but that's just my own personal opinion. I actually used to check the old Starcraftarena boards more than I did TL (don't flame me!), and after how much Husky/HD just gave up on it, that really turned me off as well.
I'm fine with people actually living off of casting like some of these guys do, but I don't like it when they lose their true personal involvement and seemingly cast for monetary reasons only.
Honestly, I wasn't the biggest fan of TB's either after reading a post of his on TL someplace (Someone asked if TB would cast their wedding, and he replied I'm a greedy whore, I'll do anything for cash(Based off memory, I can't remember at all what post that was in). The comment was obviously in jest, but it was still disheartening. However, I enjoyed the interview and it's changed my perspective a bit.
EPT
