EPTPatch 1.3 on PTR - Page 150
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:10 Kindred wrote: I ask because your posts seem to imply that warping in units is OP It's not OP by itself, no, but it is a vastly superior system to the back-loaded way you order Barracks units. | ||
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dark fury
Sweden426 Posts
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Kokujin
United States456 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:20 TheCookieMonster wrote: I'd be pretty surprised if the amulet Nerf actually went through. There's just too much public outcry and the games would become so colossi-heavy that the game would lose a lot of it's dynamic. Similar to the Fungal nerf proposed last patch (couldnt hit air units), which would have VERY seriously affected ZvZ (would have been a complete Muta-spam battle) the amulet nerf is almost universally agreed upon by top players | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:26 TimeSpiral wrote: It's not OP by itself, no, but it is a vastly superior system to the back-loaded way you order Barracks units. it is an advantage but it isn't that big of an advantage you try to make it to be. The biggest advantage of Warpgates is that you can warp everywhere there is energy and not that in the first warpin the cooldown comes after the warp and not before hand like the other races. (cooldown=buildtime expires next set of units come in) this if we watch it on a global view, means that we get 1 wave of units with less production time, every other warp in though is the same. disagree how much you want, it is how it is. Every non Gatewayunit has higher buildtime to any basic units the other both races have. the cut in time at the first warp in is what evens that out why do you think such things as 7RR and so on work? because it hits before Warpgates kicks in, And since Protoss units can't get enough supply in time to defend that. (since the buildtime is so high (38s Zealot, 42stalker) in gateway mode) we are of course outnumbered, you have to survive to get the First Warp-in boost to go on equal food. Only after we get that first set of units without prior cooldown period P is on equal food, but all Warpgates are on Cooldown every next cycle comes is effectly the same your so called backloaded system. Of course there is a difference in that P can choose what unit to get at the warpin moment, but that is a race specific advantage. But the Production capability is effectivly the same. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote: it is an advantage but it isn't that big of an advantage you try to make it to be. The biggest advantage of Warpgates is that you can warp everywhere there is energy and not that in the first warpin the cooldown comes after the warp and not before hand like the other races. this if we watch it on a global view, means that we get 1 wave of units with less production time, every other warp in though is the same. disagree how much you want, it is how it is. I'm not trying to be rude, but you actually don't understand the point being made here. No biggie. | ||
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:33 Kokujin wrote: the amulet nerf is almost universally agreed upon by top players But then they're still gonna complain about colossus being OP. And I understand why they would. Instead of adressing what a large number of people have said is a problem, they decided to sidestep everything and nerf something that wasn't talked much about. (note: I hate colossus, I wish I didn't have to use them. But it seems that it is the only protoss unit blizzard doesn't intend to nerf, ever. So why use anything else >_>) | ||
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:11 Tula wrote: It's true that for every second you don't build you loose production time, but the same is true for every other friggin race mate. Not to be a bitch, but this isn't 100% true. On that point, zerg's mechanism is a bit more forgiving. At least, until you reach maximum larva production for an hatch. Not that it changes much. | ||
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Morale
Sweden1010 Posts
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
With a backorder system from the time you notice that you need a different unit mix the earliest you can get them is one full build cycle (if you immediatly cancel all running production and switch). With the warpgate mechanic the slowest you can be is one full build cycle (if you had just finished a full round of warpins when you scout his composition). The rate at which Gateways produce units seems fine to me (honestly, i truly believe that if that was a major problem it would have been balanced back in beta...) so it's kind of a non-issue. The flexibility of the warpgates (both in production as detailed above, and where they actually produce the units) are one of the major points around which the entire protoss race is built. It's also one of the reasons why your gateway units are relatively weak and reliant on synergy between each other and the spells from the sentry. Thats simply the state of the game, but what makes the synergy between the KA Templars and the warpgate mechanic gives the protoss a boost in the highest Tier 3 play that the other races are very hard pressed to match (Frankly i have my doubts how zerg can match it at all, and i know that i have massive problems as a Terran unless i have achieved a VERY solid position with mech which cannot be outflanked (meaning i have fully contained my opponent and the game is basically over anyway....). Obviously Blizzard didn't want to change the warpgate mechanic (smart choice since it is one of the defining features of the Protoss in SC2) so they had to nerf the amulet. (edit) @Aerkin: you are of course correct. For a Zerg we'd have to switch the words to "missed larva inject" instead of missed build time, but the result remains the same  If you are so busy microing that you ain't producing stuff you fall behind in macro. The mechanic might be different but the result is the same. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:37 TimeSpiral wrote: I'm not trying to be rude, but you actually don't understand the point being made here. No biggie. i think you don't get my point, can you see Protoss competing with the other races in the earlygame if Gateway Unit Buildtime was the same as Warpgate Buildtime? if both go all in unit production? no, you wouldn't cause P would always lack on food (while still having less effectiv units) P Production rate is obviously balanced for Warpgates and not for Gateways. compare the early timing pushes of Terran, where he pushes 2 marines 2 marauders (with more units already on the way) what has P in that time? exactly 3 units of his choice (most likely 1zealot,1 sentry, 1 stalker) Obviously that means as long as P is on Gateways he gets behind in unitproduction (as long as he isn't cronoboosting unit production, which exactly makes up the difference of Warpgate Cooldown reduction to keep you alive on army, but sacrifices economy) So if you realize that P has to Chronoboost Gateways to keep up with the production of the other races earlygame. you can understand that the first warpin cycle is what evens things out foodwise if he instead boosted Warpgate. if you realize this you then can understand that this Front-loaded system advantage reduces to, - deciding which unit to get on the fly - deciding where to spawn it nothing else. | ||
PXShaman
14 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:33 Kokujin wrote: the amulet nerf is almost universally agreed upon by top players It is universally agreed upon by top players that zerg is the strongest race (See wat I did their buddy) If you take away amulet you take away templar from PvT matchups, and they aren't really used in PvP either, so you got 2 matchups this unit isn't good for. Shit i would go as far to say that you won't see them in PvZ anymore if the nerf goes through. Why have HT's for archon's DT's are way more usefull and they are 50 less gas. But that is going a little far now  So by this description HT are one of the most useless in the game than. If this patch happens I think they get the trophy for worst unit evar. Blizzard really likes to emphasize that they do not have any useless units in their game and that each one has a task. So maybe they should get rid of amulet, I don't see though why they can't make HT's gain energy faster I mean aren't they magical beings, they are like ghost on crack, if crack gave you magical powers. Which it does kids Edit: Oh yeah this nerf would ruin PvT, cause it would force a lot of Protoss players to go colossi against bio balls, and terran have best counter in the world to them in vikings, and they can build 2 out of 1 building. That would make this matchup brainless as clearly a terran player would only have to do 1 thing to win. (MMM ball with vikings) | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:33 Kokujin wrote: the amulet nerf is almost universally agreed upon by top players False...there have been numerous pros to comment in this thread saying that it should not be put through in the way that it currently is on test. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:51 Reborn58 wrote: False...there have been numerous pros to comment in this thread saying that it should not be put through in the way that it currently is on test. As said in State of the game "all top european tosses live for the amulett, but there are other ways to play toss"  | ||
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terran151
Canada103 Posts
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:51 Reborn58 wrote: False...there have been numerous pros to comment in this thread saying that it should not be put through in the way that it currently is on test. Yeah I'd really like to know where you're getting your "universally agreed" information from. My observation is based on the 90% of players on the forums who are in disagreement. This isn't high-level response by any means, though I would love to see a poll of pros only. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:54 terran151 wrote: The biggest suprise for me was that losses no longer show in your profile. Im not sure how I feel about that but im sure many people will think it is pretty lame. Feels like I feel nothing, who cares Kind of lame to feel strongly about the whole thing imo. | ||
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mousepad
United States136 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:38 Aerakin wrote: But then they're still gonna complain about colossus being OP. And I understand why they would. Instead of adressing what a large number of people have said is a problem, they decided to sidestep everything and nerf something that wasn't talked much about. (note: I hate colossus, I wish I didn't have to use them. But it seems that it is the only protoss unit blizzard doesn't intend to nerf, ever. So why use anything else >_>) Pretty much. The forums on battlenet are a insane right now over a unit that isn't being used a lot. I can't imagine what happens when the Colossus gets a nerf. My biggest concern right now is the infestor right now. The changes are shifting its role from a support class to a crappy siege tank -- the fungal changes are going to make Infested Terran's worthless once people get used to the projectile kinematics. | ||
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PXShaman
14 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:58 TheCookieMonster wrote: Yeah I'd really like to know where you're getting your "universally agreed" information from. My observation is based on the 90% of players on the forums who are in disagreement. This isn't high-level response by any means, though I would love to see a poll of pros only. Day9 posted on his twitter: omg plz let me keep my khaydarin amulet. PLZPLZPLZPLZPLZ???? >.< I mean if day9 puts that many Plz's in a post I think their might be something wrong | ||
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