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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:28 lGy wrote: what a great change.. this will stop the mass turtling storm cannon tactic rampant in high lvl masters.. what race do you play? T? because i've never ran into that as zerg. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:28 lGy wrote: what a great change.. this will stop the mass turtling storm cannon tactic rampant in high lvl masters.. lGy! Holy smokes. Fancy meeting you here. You've come in on one of the most epic qq threads in a while, lol. Ha. How've you been playin' lately? | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On March 02 2011 03:33 TimeSpiral wrote: Okay, just to be as precise as possible, I guess I will have to describe it: Warpgate Mechanic - Front-loaded system, on Cooldown. - You can order any unit you currently have unlocked via tech. - You can order any combination of available units maxed at the number of Gateways built. - Warping in units requires a psi-field. - You wait a maximum of 5 seconds after you order the unit to warp in. - Every single unit, times the number of Warpgates for each unit, then builds in the background after you order the units of your choice. THIS is the essence of a front loaded system. - An on-screen alert icon notifies you when your Warpgate CD is ready (lol) - A built-in hot key automatically selects all Warpgates (lol) So, every single time you order a warp-in you get to select whatever combination you want and you have it in 5 seconds. This happens every single time, not just when you're maxed. I don't think I need to describe the difference in a back-loaded system to you. But I will if I must. How would this effect barracks units? Would the "front loaded system" change whether or not you made marines and marauders? | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:27 PrinceXizor wrote: i had 80 for storm and amulet due to double archives. and chronoboost, which if "rushing" for warp in templar that is exactly what you would do. though if you want to at 80 seconds for more amulet separately it'd be 400 seconds instead of 320. which is still multiple minutes behind zerg. ah ok well i just the buildorder calculator for fastest builds with constant worker production and it gave me 7:40-50 for Warp-In Storms, ~8:10-30 for either Ultras & Broodlords so the difference though existing is not that huge a terran gets his things alot earlier Thor already at 5:xx and his BC at ~7:10 (of course due to Terrans flexible techtree) Okay, just to be as precise as possible, I guess I will have to describe it: Warpgate Mechanic - Front-loaded system, on Cooldown. - You can order any unit you currently have unlocked via tech. - You can order any combination of available units maxed at the number of Gateways built. - Warping in units requires a psi-field. - You wait a maximum of 5 seconds after you order the unit to warp in. - Every single unit, times the number of Warpgates for each unit, then builds in the background after you order the units of your choice. THIS is the essence of a front loaded system. - An on-screen alert icon notifies you when your Warpgate CD is ready (lol) - A built-in hot key automatically selects all Warpgates (lol) So, every single time you order a warp-in you get to select whatever combination you want and you have it in 5 seconds. This happens every single time, not just when you're maxed. I don't think I need to describe the difference in a back-loaded system to you. But I will if I must. yeah but you disregard the fact, that there is a Cooldown Period after the First warp in and it adds up to the warpgate transformation time itself. though i agree that, there is an advantage for the First Warp-In (thats why 4 Gate is so strong), every Warpin that comes afterwards, is absolutely the same like the other races. a serious 4 Gate has to win in that 1-2 mins or the advantage turns into a disadvantage thats also the reason why you can pump more Units with Gateways at the same time to beat a Warpgate timing attack. Gateway ready Transformation Warp-In Cooldown Warp-In Cooldown Warp-In Cooldown and so on. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:32 freetgy wrote: ah ok well i just the buildorder calculator for fastest builds with constant worker production and it gave me 7:40-50 for Warp-In Storms, ~8:10-30 for either Ultras & Broodlords so the difference though existing is not that huge a terran gets his things alot earlier Thor already at 5:xx and his BC at ~7:10 (of course due to Terrans flexible techtree) Don't forget to add that if a Z techs straight to T3, he dies to a strong gust of wind, where the other races can typically wall off with very light defense. | ||
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Salvarias
Denmark231 Posts
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:41 Salvarias wrote: ehm, I just got that chill of fear and despir through my spine, as I got to think, if fungel growth is now a missile... does that mean... point defense drone... can shoot it down ? IIRC no. PDD doesn't shoot down other spells that make a projectile like seeker missile. | ||
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dafnay
Angola375 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote: Ha! I cannot tell if I should be thanking you or virtually slapping you in the face, lol. It's been an epic struggle after that post for sure though ;P slap me you know I like that ! | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
On March 02 2011 03:33 TimeSpiral wrote: Okay, just to be as precise as possible, I guess I will have to describe it: Warpgate Mechanic - Front-loaded system, on Cooldown. - You can order any unit you currently have unlocked via tech. - You can order any combination of available units maxed at the number of Gateways built. - Warping in units requires a psi-field. - You wait a maximum of 5 seconds after you order the unit to warp in. - Every single unit, times the number of Warpgates for each unit, then builds in the background after you order the units of your choice. THIS is the essence of a front loaded system. - An on-screen alert icon notifies you when your Warpgate CD is ready (lol) - A built-in hot key automatically selects all Warpgates (lol) So, every single time you order a warp-in you get to select whatever combination you want and you have it in 5 seconds. This happens every single time, not just when you're maxed. Even if warpgates are available, the space where you can get units is limited. You dont have a pylon with your main army following it. If you do have a forward pylon, then u can reinforce it fast. Zerg can do that also since they are the fastest and Terran might not be able to do as fast but their units compensate for that (Try breaking a line of siege tanks). And you're crying about the on screen notifications, zerg has that for larva as well and the hotkey crying, and either way a good P player is ALWAYS checking his gates to know when the CD is done because when your busy Macroing and Microing, a little notification can easily be missed. Not to mention if a P's army dies and a single wave of warped units can clean up the opponent, then neither's army is strong enough to keep pressing forward. And about the Archon thing....Archons are bad, that has been pointed out numerous times in this thread especially vs T. And that crap about "Instant gratification"...have you lost the plot? We still have to wait for the CD and even if it does what you said that it pretrains all your units or wtv, we eventually end up selecting the ones we would have done to begin with. Which is usually a mix of everything (Stalker zealot and like a sentry or 2) and if HTs are available, we would make one or 2 either way. T is if anything the most instant gratification of the races. They expect T1 drops to work wonders like 20 minute into the game. Mules get them so much minerals or repair in an instant, Bunker can be salvaged for minimal loses and their tech tree is extremely fast. If you stick to MM all game, dont cry that Warping in is op...your marauders by themselves wreck the crap out of gateway units so we end up with zealots as meatshields for the siege and MMM and get Immortals or Colo which dont get warped in. Plus storm isnt great vs Marauders | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:32 freetgy wrote: yeah but you disregard the fact, that there is a Cooldown Period after the First warp in and it adds up to the warpgate transformation time itself. though i agree that, there is an advantage for the First Warp-In (thats why 4 Gate is so strong), every Warpin that comes afterwards, is absolutely the same like the other races. a serious 4 Gate has to win in that 1-2 mins or the advantage turns into a disadvantage thats also the reason why you can pump more Units with Gateways at the same time to beat a Warpgate timing attack. Gateway ready Transformation Warp-In Cooldown Warp-In Cooldown Warp-In Cooldown and so on. Wow ... I cannot believe this argument is still waging and even Protoss players are not getting it. Ha. Warpgates do not only provide a benefit on the first warp-in. That is 100% inaccurate. You get a major benefit each and every time the on-screen "macro now" alert prompts you to hit W. Warpgates are a front-loaded credit system, every round after Warpgate research finishes. It is not just the first time, or when you're maxed. The benefit occurs every single round. Example: • You have 16 Warpgates • You have the entire tech tree available. • Warpgate Macro-alert appears on your screen. ___________________________________________________ Story-time ... (because we all love cool stories) ============================================== "What'll it be today, General?" thinks the Protoss Shop-keep. "I'd like 16 Stalkers, please," orders the General. "You're in luck!" intuits the shop-keep, "Not only do I have 16 Stalkers ready to go right now, but every time you order units I order 16 of every unit for you!" The General is shocked as he fumbles over his words, "Whoa, uhm, shop-keep?" "Yeah? What is it, Lad?" The General nervously fumbles through his satchel of minerals. The tubes of v-gas clicking up against the stones. "We're doin' alright down there, sure, but I cannot afford to order 80 units right now ..." The shop-keep burst out into raucous telepathic laughter. The General looks around the shop nervously. He sees another general standing in line and hears him chuckling a little bit. "What is so funny?!" demands the General. "Silly, Lad," thinks the shop-keep. "Haven't you ever done this before? I buy everything up front for you, at no cost to you. It's a great deal! Any time you press (W) I will make sure I have every single combination of every unit you could want ready to go and delivered in 5-seconds flat. 100% guaranteed everytime. You only pay for what you use, when you use it." "I see," says the embarrassed General. "Where do I pick up my Stalkers?" "Oh, sonny ... Not only will they be ready in 5 seconds, but you can warp them in anywhere you like. You just tell me where, and I'll take care of the rest." Satisfied, the General completes his order for 16 Stalkers and gets on his way. As he walks out the front door, off to his left he hears some frustrated arguing coming from a Terran shop. The General concentrates on what is happens and intuits the scenario ... "I'm sorry, Buster. I just cannot make that happen," says the Terran shop-keep in thick southern draw. "I know I ordered 16 Marines a little while ago, but I really need that to be 8 Marines, 2 Ghosts, and 6 Marauders, and I still need it right now." "Well, like I said, Tiger," says the Terran shop-keep as he expectorates into a spittoon located on the ground next to the Terran Commander's feet. He almost misses. He continues, "I'll cancel that there order for 'em Marines, but I'm gonna need Payment for them new soldiers you want right now and you're just gonna have to wait until they're ready. We're busy in here, ya know? And when they're done they walk out to wherever you want." "That's some #$%^& serious %^& #$% you &*%$# you hear me!!" The Terran shop-keep spits again. This time landing squarely on the Commander's boot. The Protoss Commander smiles a lipless smile and continues on his way. In his mind, out of nowhere he hears the Shop-keep, "Hey, Lad. Those Stalkers are doing just fine! And you know what? The next batch of 80 units is ready for you to choose from again." The Protoss General feels tingly inside as he thinks to himself, "Wow. That was fast, and what a selection!" | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:29 TimeSpiral wrote: Wow ... I cannot believe this argument is still waging and even Protoss players are not getting it. Ha. Warpgates do not only provide a benefit on the first warp-in. That is 100% inaccurate. You get a major benefit each and every time the on-screen "macro now" alert prompts you to hit W. Warpgates are a front-loaded credit system, every round after Warpgate research finishes. It is not just the first time, or when you're maxed. The benefit occurs every single round. Example: • You have 16 Warpgates • You have the entire tech tree available. • Warpgate Macro-alert appears on your screen. ___________________________________________________ Story-time ... (because we all love cool stories) ============================================== "What'll it be today, General?" thinks the Protoss Shop-keep. "I'd like 16 Stalkers, please," orders the General. "You're in luck!" intuits the shop-keep, "Not only do I have 16 Stalkers ready to go right now, but every time you order units I order 16 of every unit for you!" The General is shocked as he fumbles over his words, "Whoa, uhm, shop-keep?" "Yeah? What is it, Lad?" The General nervously fumbles through his satchel of minerals. The tubes of v-gas clicking up against the stones. "We're doin' alright down there, sure, but I cannot afford to order 80 units right now ..." The shop-keep burst out into raucous telepathic laughter. The General looks around the shop nervously. He sees another general standing in line and hears him chuckling a little bit. "What is so funny?!" demands the General. "Silly, Lad," thinks the shop-keep. "Haven't you ever done this before? I buy everything up front for you, at no cost to you. It's a great deal! Any time you press (W) I will make sure I have every single combination of every unit you could want ready to go and delivered in 5-seconds flat. 100% guaranteed everytime. You only pay for what you use, when you use it." "I see," says the embarrassed General. "Where do I pick up my Stalkers?" "Oh, sonny ... Not only will they be ready in 5 seconds, but you can warp them in anywhere you like. You just tell me where, and I'll take care of the rest." Satisfied, the General completes his order for 16 Stalkers and gets on his way. As he walks out the front door, off to his left he hears some frustrated arguing coming from a Terran shop. The General concentrates on what is happens and intuits the scenario ... The Protoss Commander smiles a lipless smile and continues on his way. In his mind, out of nowhere he hears the Shop-keep, "Hey, Lad. Those Stalkers are doing just fine! And you know what? The next batch of 80 units is ready for you to choose from again." The Protoss General feels tingly inside as he thinks to himself, "Wow. That was fast, and what a selection!" Such a wonderful story  I hope this will open the eyes for those who can't understand what benefits you get from the warp tech. | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:29 TimeSpiral wrote: Wow ... I cannot believe this argument is still waging and even Protoss players are not getting it. Ha. Warpgates do not only provide a benefit on the first warp-in. That is 100% inaccurate. You get a major benefit each and every time the on-screen "macro now" alert prompts you to hit W. Warpgates are a front-loaded credit system, every round after Warpgate research finishes. It is not just the first time, or when you're maxed. The benefit occurs every single round. Example: • You have 16 Warpgates • You have the entire tech tree available. • Warpgate Macro-alert appears on your screen. ___________________________________________________ Story-time ... (because we all love cool stories) ============================================== "What'll it be today, General?" thinks the Protoss Shop-keep. "I'd like 16 Stalkers, please," orders the General. "You're in luck!" intuits the shop-keep, "Not only do I have 16 Stalkers ready to go right now, but every time you order units I order 16 of every unit for you!" The General is shocked as he fumbles over his words, "Whoa, uhm, shop-keep?" "Yeah? What is it, Lad?" The General nervously fumbles through his satchel of minerals. The tubes of v-gas clicking up against the stones. "We're doin' alright down there, sure, but I cannot afford to order 80 units right now ..." The shop-keep burst out into raucous telepathic laughter. The General looks around the shop nervously. He sees another general standing in line and hears him chuckling a little bit. "What is so funny?!" demands the General. "Silly, Lad," thinks the shop-keep. "Haven't you ever done this before? I buy everything up front for you, at no cost to you. It's a great deal! Any time you press (W) I will make sure I have every single combination of every unit you could want ready to go and delivered in 5-seconds flat. 100% guaranteed everytime. You only pay for what you use, when you use it." "I see," says the embarrassed General. "Where do I pick up my Stalkers?" "Oh, sonny ... Not only will they be ready in 5 seconds, but you can warp them in anywhere you like. You just tell me where, and I'll take care of the rest." Satisfied, the General completes his order for 16 Stalkers and gets on his way. As he walks out the front door, off to his left he hears some frustrated arguing coming from a Terran shop. The General concentrates on what is happens and intuits the scenario ... The Protoss Commander smiles a lipless smile and continues on his way. In his mind, out of nowhere he hears the Shop-keep, "Hey, Lad. Those Stalkers are doing just fine! And you know what? The next batch of 80 units is ready for you to choose from again." The Protoss General feels tingly inside as he thinks to himself, "Wow. That was fast, and what a selection!" so what your solution? Take out warpgates? | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On March 02 2011 01:13 Keren wrote: I think new Fungal will be precisely the answer to the Protoss deathball, realize that it does more dps than standing in a storm against Armored units now. While I agree the new fungal is much deadlier, you are incorrect. It has a lower DPS to armored units than psi-storm. psi-storm: 80 dmg over 4 secs = 20 DPS Fungal: 47 dmg over 4 secs = 11.75 DPS Of course since units can leave the aoe of storm before it finishes, armored units can take less damage than 80, but that is unrelated to DPS. I do agree that Fungal is going to be another good tool to help combat the Protoss deathball. Both Voids and Colossus are armored and therefore will take nice damage from fungal. If the zerg has enough infestor energy and starts harassing P as he moves out, he's going to be able to severely weaken the death ball with fungal alone. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:29 TimeSpiral wrote: cute story, except you neglect to mention that warpgate units get torn apart by any combination of tier 1 terran units. also, every second u don't warp in, that's building time you're losing because we can't que up units. Don't say queing up is for noobs because pros que up all the time (even the koreans). They haven't reached a Flash level of macro yet :p | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
No solution needs to be offered. I'm simply explaining some of the core benefits of Warp tech, that seems to be lost on so many people, in a non-conventional and arguably humorous way  | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On March 02 2011 03:55 Boen wrote: What exactly is this part referring to?[/QUOTE] I imagine hero games such as dota | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
I imagine hero games such as dota Probably, it is directly below a note about hero buttons. | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:44 TimeSpiral wrote: No solution needs to be offered. I'm simply explaining some of the core benefits of Warp tech, that seems to be lost on so many people, in a non-conventional and arguably humorous way I ask because your posts seem to imply that warping in units is OP | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:43 da_head wrote: cute story, except you neglect to mention that warpgate units get torn apart by any combination of tier 1 terran units. also, every second u don't warp in, that's building time you're losing because we can't que up units. Don't say queing up is for noobs because pros que up all the time (even the koreans). They haven't reached a Flash level of macro yet :p cute rumour you are spreading it still isn't true but never mind the facts when you can whine right? Yes your units don't have quite the same punch as terran T1 units, thats why you got a T1 spellcaster remember? And also why you got the techtree with the best synergy between units (aka "Protoss Deathball"). If you want the same power as Terran T1 units you might as well switch race now, because frankly with the game mechanics as they are that can never happen, unless every other feature that makes the Protoss race what they are is changed first. It's true that for every second you don't build you loose production time, but the same is true for every other friggin race mate. Maybe i can queue (if i'd want to) but if i macro well i don't have the money to order 3 cycles of units in advance (and frankly if i have the money that shows a completly different problem in my gameplay). If you prefer the queue system the answer is simple, don't build warpgates. | ||
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