On March 01 2011 00:07 drcatellino wrote: Should the maps be adapting to the players or should the players be adapting to the maps ?
TL general opinion seems to favor the first option, but I think people should be more open-minded about it and accept changes to their playstyle to fit some maps.
It seems people here are more interested in getting maps that are played the exact same way as in BW, rather than maps that are trying things and innovating.
Are Blizzard maps perfect ? No, for sure, but it's sad that they all get dismissed without proper testing and experimentations.
So innovating for you is a game of 10 minutes where everyone 1base?
Do you really want to play a 30-60 minute macro fest every time you search for a 1v1 on the ladder? While I agree that people doing 2 racks marine SCV all ins and 4 gates that last 5-10 minutes are pretty boring, I also don't want to play a super long macro game every time. One every now and again is certainly entertaining, but I don't want to play one every single game. Personally the 2 base window for blizzard that lasts in the 10-20 minute range is perfect game time in my opinion. Some games will obviously be shorter/longer and that's good variety.
Just start playing customs maps and do nr20 if you want to play hour long macro games every time.
Ignorance is bliss.
You're more than welcome to explain the fallacy of my logic.
Feel free to read the 59 page thread about how terrible blizzard maps are.
People complain about everything, it's human nature. I'll give it a week for somebody to come up with a new strategy before I turn into a sheep and complain with everyone else.
I believe somebody said that people expect the maps to cater to them instead of the players catering to the maps. Try basing your style on the map you're playing instead of forcing the map to be your style. Omg, I can't make 8 sentries and safely take my expansion QQ. Clearly the map is broken.
Blizzard said that they think 2 base is their idea of the game (interview link was to gosugamers, few pages ago?) so clearly their maps are going to represent that. Blizzard knows exactly what they're doing. Just because you have different ideas on how the game should play out doesn't make you and everyone here correct. If you don't like that don't play the ladder. Nobody is forcing you to play the ladder so if you don't like the new maps and want to play your balanced macro maps just search for iccup in the custom games box and play those since they're so much better. Enjoy the game. Nobody will stop you.
On March 01 2011 01:28 gnutz wrote: Do you even know how you must expand versus Zerg? There is nothing "new strategy" what you could do. If you can't wall off, you can't expand. It's simple as that.
1. You don't HAVE to expand. 2. You can wall off, you just can't wall off the same way you can on other maps. 3. You can expand without walling off. 4. Do you really think you've properly analyzed every possible new PvZ strategy this map offers in the few days that it has been in the map pool?
Thats a pretty illogical way to look at things, wall off expanding is standard because its by far the best way to play macro protoss, you cant just plop a nexus down in PvZ and expect it to be safe without a wall.
When a map breaks something thats standard and encourages a race to one base consistently it should not even be part of the map pool, remember how much people cried about blistering sands? Same problem but different cause.
On March 01 2011 01:45 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: People complain about everything, it's human nature. I'll give it a week for somebody to come up with a new strategy before I turn into a sheep and complain with everyone else.
I believe somebody said that people expect the maps to cater to them instead of the players catering to the maps. Try basing your style on the map you're playing instead of forcing the map to be your style. Omg, I can't make 8 sentries and safely take my expansion QQ. Clearly the map is broken.
I could not agree with this more. Most people freak out whenever they have to come up with a new strategy.
When a map breaks something thats standard and encourages a race to one base consistently it should not even be part of the map pool, remember how much people cried about blistering sands? Same problem but different cause.
Give it some time. If this map ends up anything like Blistering Sands I'll be at the front of the rally to get it removed.
On March 01 2011 00:07 drcatellino wrote: Should the maps be adapting to the players or should the players be adapting to the maps ?
TL general opinion seems to favor the first option, but I think people should be more open-minded about it and accept changes to their playstyle to fit some maps.
It seems people here are more interested in getting maps that are played the exact same way as in BW, rather than maps that are trying things and innovating.
Are Blizzard maps perfect ? No, for sure, but it's sad that they all get dismissed without proper testing and experimentations.
So innovating for you is a game of 10 minutes where everyone 1base?
Do you really want to play a 30-60 minute macro fest every time you search for a 1v1 on the ladder? While I agree that people doing 2 racks marine SCV all ins and 4 gates that last 5-10 minutes are pretty boring, I also don't want to play a super long macro game every time. One every now and again is certainly entertaining, but I don't want to play one every single game. Personally the 2 base window for blizzard that lasts in the 10-20 minute range is perfect game time in my opinion. Some games will obviously be shorter/longer and that's good variety.
Just start playing customs maps and do nr20 if you want to play hour long macro games every time.
Ignorance is bliss.
You're more than welcome to explain the fallacy of my logic.
Feel free to read the 59 page thread about how terrible blizzard maps are.
People complain about everything, it's human nature. I'll give it a week for somebody to come up with a new strategy before I turn into a sheep and complain with everyone else.
I believe somebody said that people expect the maps to cater to them instead of the players catering to the maps. Try basing your style on the map you're playing instead of forcing the map to be your style. Omg, I can't make 8 sentries and safely take my expansion QQ. Clearly the map is broken.
Blizzard said that they think 2 base is their idea of the game (interview link was to gosugamers, few pages ago?) so clearly their maps are going to represent that. Blizzard knows exactly what they're doing. Just because you have different ideas on how the game should play out doesn't make you and everyone here correct. If you don't like that don't play the ladder. Nobody is forcing you to play the ladder so if you don't like the new maps and want to play your balanced macro maps just search for iccup in the custom games box and play those since they're so much better. Enjoy the game. Nobody will stop you.
Heres the problem with all this, blizzard doesn't know what they are doing. If you read the interviews and their logic behind changes to the map pool, you would see how badly the contradict themselves and their backward logic on what they think makes a good fair map.
Nobody is saying the maps should cater to X player, people want the maps to not force certain styles of play by making expanding ridiculously hard because of destructible rocks, multiple backdoors and in general bad design. Or promoting a player to one base all-in because he spawns within arms reach of his opponent. "deal with it, cry less" is not a good way to approach map balance and healthy map pool.
The ladder absolutely needs a strong map pool for this games success as an esport, when the only ladder we can play on actively to practice is a completely different pool from large tournaments that refuse to use the maps because they are so bad, their is a huge problem. This isnt BW were i can log on a custom ladder like ICCUP, blizzard is making one hundred percent sure they are in total control of starcraft 2 as an Esport, and they need to handle it correctly instead of throwing this heap of trash at us.
Blizzard needs to man up, credit mapmakers and release them onto ladder. For example the GSL maps are amazing and the games played balance the game. On the other hand, the current new maps are terrible.
On March 01 2011 02:11 Iggnite wrote: Blizzard needs to man up, credit mapmakers and release them onto ladder. For example the GSL maps are amazing and the games played balance the game. On the other hand, the current new maps are terrible.
Its not that easy, i think they are trying to stay away from using player maps in ladder because they want custom map makers to take advantage of the marketplace scheme they are cooking up, if they use player made maps that would contradict their micro transaction scheme.
At least thats my big conspiracy theory, excuse me while i go put on my tinfoil hat.
amplified is absolutely right. Blizzard's map design, intentionally or not, stunts strategic creativity. It should be like Brood War in the sense that maps should be designed to offer as many strategic opportunities as possible to a player at the very start of the game. You shouldn't be limiting yourself before the game even loads because you know this matchup is very hard or auto-loss on this map or you get close positions on an otherwise good map and that stunts the game. Situations where you know you have one strategy choice because the map favors an opponent's build so strongly are limiting.
On March 01 2011 00:07 drcatellino wrote: Should the maps be adapting to the players or should the players be adapting to the maps ?
TL general opinion seems to favor the first option, but I think people should be more open-minded about it and accept changes to their playstyle to fit some maps.
It seems people here are more interested in getting maps that are played the exact same way as in BW, rather than maps that are trying things and innovating.
Are Blizzard maps perfect ? No, for sure, but it's sad that they all get dismissed without proper testing and experimentations.
So innovating for you is a game of 10 minutes where everyone 1base?
Do you really want to play a 30-60 minute macro fest every time you search for a 1v1 on the ladder? While I agree that people doing 2 racks marine SCV all ins and 4 gates that last 5-10 minutes are pretty boring, I also don't want to play a super long macro game every time. One every now and again is certainly entertaining, but I don't want to play one every single game. Personally the 2 base window for blizzard that lasts in the 10-20 minute range is perfect game time in my opinion. Some games will obviously be shorter/longer and that's good variety.
Just start playing customs maps and do nr20 if you want to play hour long macro games every time.
Ignorance is bliss.
You're more than welcome to explain the fallacy of my logic.
Feel free to read the 59 page thread about how terrible blizzard maps are.
People complain about everything, it's human nature. I'll give it a week for somebody to come up with a new strategy before I turn into a sheep and complain with everyone else.
I believe somebody said that people expect the maps to cater to them instead of the players catering to the maps. Try basing your style on the map you're playing instead of forcing the map to be your style. Omg, I can't make 8 sentries and safely take my expansion QQ. Clearly the map is broken.
Blizzard said that they think 2 base is their idea of the game (interview link was to gosugamers, few pages ago?) so clearly their maps are going to represent that. Blizzard knows exactly what they're doing. Just because you have different ideas on how the game should play out doesn't make you and everyone here correct. If you don't like that don't play the ladder. Nobody is forcing you to play the ladder so if you don't like the new maps and want to play your balanced macro maps just search for iccup in the custom games box and play those since they're so much better. Enjoy the game. Nobody will stop you.
The problem is that you're arguing based on ignorance. It's also human nature for new people who don't do any research to make baseless statements of fact. Just because a map is a macro map doesn't mean that all games will last for 30-60 minutes. Most professional BW games last 10-25 minutes. People who have never watched a single progame of BW should stop making baseless statements of fact about it.
And no, Blizzard doesn't know what it's doing when it comes to maps. The history of Blizzard from Starcraft to Warcraft 3 clearly shows that the ICCUP community and the Korean e-sports scene knows how to make maps way better than Blizzard. Blizzard created a few maps at the start and then just left the community alone to do their own thing. If you did any research at all, you'd know that Blizzard is essentially starting from scratch in terms of competitive mapmaking and that the community is way more experienced than them.
Almost all the feedback on the LR threads about maps is how much better and more interesting the games on Shakuras are versus all the other Blizzard maps. Blizzard removed that map because they claimed it was boring. It doesn't take a genius to figure out there's a huge disconnect between Blizzard and the competitive community.
I downvoted Backwater Gulch and Slag Pits. Gulch is kind of small..and hard to expo.The rush base distance for Slag Pits is smaller then Steppes of War.Way to go for it Blizz.Remove SoW and bring us a 4 player SoW. The zerg can 7 pool/3 roach/speedling allin u all day on that map.Or if he doesnt,he just hidra rushes,spreads creep and kicks ur but.And i dont want to 4 gate all PvZ on those maps(i dont like 4 gate in general,its either that i dont get the timing right or that is repetitive).
Typhon Peaks its more imba of them all.Just plain ol' BW macro games.
On March 01 2011 02:11 Iggnite wrote: Blizzard needs to man up, credit mapmakers and release them onto ladder. For example the GSL maps are amazing and the games played balance the game. On the other hand, the current new maps are terrible.
Its not that easy, i think they are trying to stay away from using player maps in ladder because they want custom map makers to take advantage of the marketplace scheme they are cooking up, if they use player made maps that would contradict their micro transaction scheme.
At least thats my big conspiracy theory, excuse me while i go put on my tinfoil hat.
Eww. I think you're right about that. They're going to charge for you to be able to ladder on Testbug or Crevasse.
While I applaud Blizzard's effort, it completely blows my mind that they leave in Delta and take out Shakuras.
Clearly who ever makes these decisions is 100% completely out of touch with competitive SC2. It's too bad none of the big-wigs at Blizzard are able to realize it and find somebody who can make decisions that would further allow the SC2 esports scene to grow. It's too bad. There are so many people putting in so much effort to grow the SC2 esports scene, but when the ones who count(Blizzard) make such an obvious "we have no fucking idea what we are doing" decision like this, it has to be frustrating to so many people.
On March 01 2011 02:45 skipdog172 wrote: While I applaud Blizzard's effort, it completely blows my mind that they leave in Delta and take out Shakuras.
Delta Quadrant has been modified so your natural can't be hit by an unstoppable Siege Tank anymore. The Lost Temple treatment, if you will. Give it another chance
On March 01 2011 01:17 trNimitz wrote: One of the new maps is a horror PvZ. Who had the idea to make the nat expo a full screens length away from the ramp so that you can't expand at all vs speedlings... :S
If you are struggling PvZ on Backwater Gulch you really shouldn't be complaining about balance of maps imo.
On March 01 2011 01:20 gnutz wrote: I am Protoss and i just have realized that i just can't expand versus Zerg period. So there may be some more 1 Base All-Ins i don't have considered yet, but ... i think you get what i mean.
It's possible that the map ends up being broken in PvZ but it's more likely that someone will eventually find a strategy that isn't a 1 base all in that works just fine for Protoss.
Do you even know how you must expand versus Zerg? There is nothing "new strategy" what you could do. If you can't wall off, you can't expand. It's simple as that.
Go watch white-ra play PvZ. He often omits a wall off, even on maps like Xel'Naga.
On March 01 2011 02:11 Iggnite wrote: Blizzard needs to man up, credit mapmakers and release them onto ladder. For example the GSL maps are amazing and the games played balance the game. On the other hand, the current new maps are terrible.
Its not that easy, i think they are trying to stay away from using player maps in ladder because they want custom map makers to take advantage of the marketplace scheme they are cooking up, if they use player made maps that would contradict their micro transaction scheme.
At least thats my big conspiracy theory, excuse me while i go put on my tinfoil hat.
oh shit, I totally forgot about their micro transactions scheme. my heart just sank when I read that. I'm imagining the grinning faces of bobby kotick and dustin browder looking down on us.
How on earth do they think that Slag Pits is in any way Shakuras's equal?
--
I think I'm kind of liking Backwater Gulch, but I'm not sure, and I really don't know about the positional imbalances. Could someone point me toward discussion about this map?
Really getting to be baffling. Browder said in a interview recently that he watches the GSL vods every morning when he works out. Does he really watch those awesome Shakuras games and think well this is definitely NOT what we want players to experience on the ladder? Not enough worker allins or one base attacks timed around a low level upgrade on the new non-Blizzard maps for them?
Meanwhile they're tweaking templar, infestors and battlecruisers on the PTR... how are we even supposed to test changes to those units with a ladder pool we can't safely hold our natural on?
On March 01 2011 01:20 gnutz wrote: I am Protoss and i just have realized that i just can't expand versus Zerg period. So there may be some more 1 Base All-Ins i don't have considered yet, but ... i think you get what i mean.
It's possible that the map ends up being broken in PvZ but it's more likely that someone will eventually find a strategy that isn't a 1 base all in that works just fine for Protoss.
Do you even know how you must expand versus Zerg? There is nothing "new strategy" what you could do. If you can't wall off, you can't expand. It's simple as that.
Go watch white-ra play PvZ. He often omits a wall off, even on maps like Xel'Naga.
Nope. Xel Naga has the ramp close to the natural so you can still sim city using the Nexus as part of your wall. If you don't make a wall you can't FE, its too easy to just do a speedling run by with out any units. There may be some examples where this doesn't happen, but I'd rather not bet my game on coinflips. These new maps you can't do that because the natural is so far away. Please do some research.
EPT
