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On February 17 2011 05:40 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:24 Bobster wrote:All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!) There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously). Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type. There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately. I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order) - Game knowledge - Analytic Ability - Quick Wit - Humour - Enthusiasm I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses. And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_> ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/GCn6L.png) I personally think people severly underestimate the game knowledge of Tasteless. I think ( but it's just speculation ofc ) that it's his job to get Artosis to analyze what I mean by that is that Tasteless is the one who has to ask the questions what he thinks every viewer is wondering so Artosis can explain it. I think he just plays kind of a role and he does it perfectly. On topic I think it's definetly needed that someone entertains while the other does the analysis. A lot of people wont watch if its only analysis while there is the more hardcore group that wouldn't watch as much if it was only entertainment. So they try to combine it to hook up as many viewers to the stream at all times it's just business :p.
its hard to notice nicks knowledge when artosis is sitting right beside him
the wikipedia of starcraft
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Both yes and no. I mean, take khaldor as an example, his casting is wonderful, yet I understand just very little of what he says. His cheer passion and excitement for the game passes the feeling along. BUT, if its an english cast, then you really can't avoid to lissen to what words are spoken, and if you hear something just outright wrong, then you can't but cringe, no matter how excited or passionate the caster is.
So yeah, I'd say it is quite important.
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This deppends a little bit. It's so annoying when some scrub is commentating and is telling us whats gonna happened and just talking alot of shit and is wrong like 90% of the time, that sucks (GLHF guys at Assembly etc). But if there is a caster with excitement in the voice and just commentating whats happening for the time being and skip the part whats gonna happened and over analyzing stuff they have no clue about, it's perfectly fine (TotalBiscuit etc).
Thats my opinion about it.
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to me, those few games idra commentated were easily the best casted games in the history of sc2, and i watch a lot of starcraft. i'm not looking for some idiot to yell at the top of his lungs about something he doesn't really understand, thats not the point of the game for me. i enjoy knowledgeable casting with a lot of in-depth analysis.
in my opinion to cast any tournament with any meaningful prize money being master league on ladder should be an absolute bare minimum. personally i would prefer a pro level player.
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It depends on what audience you're targeting, really. For example myself, i need caster to know at least as much as i know so i don't recognize all the BS he says ^_^ (im platinum so thats not really too hard to be better then me ) but more he knows the better . I get annoyed very fast when watching people like TB (granted, i liked his cast during SCRI, but that was probably because of the amazing games) or Kelly who have no clue about the game. But i'm sure there is a lot of people who will be satisfied with either TB or Kelly for obvious reasons.
I think, thought, and this will probably piss some people off, that Kelly is terrible choice for GSL. I think they should employ people who actually know wtf is going on rather then people who don't.
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On February 17 2011 05:45 KOFgokuon wrote:
How much do you think multi-sports casters like Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Mike Breen, Gus Johnson truly understand about the games that they are casting? You just need a good voice, some basic knowledge of players, moves, and enough to do the play by play and have your analyst explain all of the nitty gritty. Same thing goes for video game casts
FYI Gus Johnson is terrible at casting MMA. I would say MMA is a very close comparison to SC2 because it's very technical and it's easy to miss the important details.
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Depends on the role. Are they color? Or the actual play by play person?
For example, Husky is entertaining and enthusiastic, but MANY times he's completely wrong about the situation or the outcome of the battle. A lack of game knowledge.
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On February 17 2011 05:38 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:34 SlapMySalami wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2011 04:17 MementoMori wrote:With the announcement of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KellyMILKIES as the new GSL code A caster I've read many posts questioning her game knowledge. Setting aside whether or not she truly does possess game knowledge, the question comes to mind, is it even important? In my view, there's an important distinction between casting and commentating. Our favorite casting archon tastosis is comprised of one caster and one commentator (see below) ![[image loading]](http://oi52.tinypic.com/9ropqh.jpg) Artosis fills his role of commentator by providing game high level game knowledge. While Tasteless does sometimes cross into this role as well, his primary role has been entertainment value. I think that entertainment value is something which is being forgotten in many discussions of casters or casting teams. It seems very likely that Kelly will not be casting alone and with rumors going around that she will be joined by http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/TorcH, what does it matter if she does not have as much game knowledge as Artosis for example? She will likely fill the role that Tasteless has been filling. To me, entertainment value is a huge part of watching something like the GSL. It would be easy to find a pro player who could sit down and robotically say what each player is probably thinking but nobody would watch that. In the GSL specifically, it comes down to the team (one person for entertainment, one person for game knowledge). As another example, take the cynnical brit Total Biscuit. He may not always be the most knowledgeable, but his enthusiasm is contagious (at least it for a lot of people). I really think the most important quality for a caster to have is personality. We are watching things like the GSL for entertainment after all, and if entertaining commentators weren't important I think we'd all just be watching replays instead. Commentaros fill that role and I think skill in commentating is just as important (if not more important) than straight up game knowledge. I just feel like sometimes people say they want one thing in a caster, but when we look at the most popular casters out there at the moment, I think the conclusion we have to come to is that the average person isn't looking for tip-top game knowledge, they're looking to be entertained. What do you guys think? Is entertaining commentary with likable personalities necessary to help bring esports the popularity it deserves globally and in the West? Or is game knowledge the #1 consideration for you? Also, since the majority of us would like to see SC2 popular in the west, what kind of caster/commentating team do you think would be best to reach a wider audience? Edit: I'm definitely not trying to say that a funny guy off the street who has absolutely no game knowledge at all would be good by any stretch. Certainly, they must have at least some. yes game knowledge is required. it was sooo bad when tasteless would ask a question about something he should already know and he still does subtle things along those lines. edit: oops quoted whole op You know some of that is an act, right? To make the cast nub friendly. I guess it's hard to make acting friendly for acting nubs..... Also my two cents: Game knowledge in terms of being a pro is not necessary to be a good caster NOW, but to have a sustained success it will be. There are some casters who have trouble helping the audience learn what's good about the play and their ability to contribute as casters diminishes over time because every match they cast feels the same. BUT, way more important that game knowledge is player knowledge. I've heard casters embarrass themselves by not knowing who the players are and what some of their accomplishments are and from an eSports perspective that's unacceptable. I'm not talking about not knowing who some random scrub is, but saying things such as (exaggerated) "I haven't heard much about this IMNestea guy so he's probably not a very good zerg". Would basketball fans ever accept a commentator for basketball who had no idea who Tim Duncan was even though he's not as good now? No, and commentators really need to work on it.
"acting" like you dont know fundamental facts about the game is not an act in the first place
"acting" like you dont know hotkeys for important tabs is not an act in the first place
there was a line somewhere around s1 or s2 where he said something along the lines of "Jeez if I said this out loud I would look like such a nub" and he went ahead and said it out loud anyway. it was brought up on a state of the game in the past followed by an audio facepalm
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It's much better to have a lot of game knowledge. Honestly, if the caster is really poor than this game can seem to be just two people who are throwing armies at one another without any strategy whatsoever. Doesn't sound like a fun game to watch.
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On February 17 2011 05:45 KOFgokuon wrote:
How much do you think multi-sports casters like Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Mike Breen, Gus Johnson truly understand about the games that they are casting? You just need a good voice, some basic knowledge of players, moves, and enough to do the play by play and have your analyst explain all of the nitty gritty. Same thing goes for video game casts
I don't think we should go by standards of sports casters. If we look at football, we all know the rules. We can see the action. What the caster wants to give us is a quick explanation of the strategy being used as well as what went right or wrong. So in football, the caster will tell us what play they believe is being used, why that play is being used, and whether it worked or not (as well as why it worked or not).
However, the strategy in physical sports does not match the level of strategy in Starcraft 2. I agree with having two casters; the analytical and the color. However, the analytical must be able to keep up with high level players because the ones playing the game don't tell you what strategies they are using! The caster must be able to figure out what build order is being used, what goals the players are trying to achieve, what could impede the player, and what could be done better. Replay casters have the luxury of studying the replays multiple times to get their knowledge, but a live caster must have the knowledge beforehand.
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On February 17 2011 05:50 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:45 KOFgokuon wrote:
How much do you think multi-sports casters like Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Mike Breen, Gus Johnson truly understand about the games that they are casting? You just need a good voice, some basic knowledge of players, moves, and enough to do the play by play and have your analyst explain all of the nitty gritty. Same thing goes for video game casts FYI Gus Johnson is terrible at casting MMA. I would say MMA is a very close comparison to SC2 because it's very technical and it's easy to miss the important details.
I loved it when Bas Rutten casted MMA. And he knew his stuff, while being ridiculously over the top with humor sometimes.
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On February 17 2011 05:40 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:24 Bobster wrote:All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!) There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously). Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type. There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately. I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order) - Game knowledge - Analytic Ability - Quick Wit - Humour - Enthusiasm I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses. And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_> I personally think people severly underestimate the game knowledge of Tasteless. I think ( but it's just speculation ofc ) that it's his job to get Artosis to analyze what I mean by that is that Tasteless is the one who has to ask the questions what he thinks every viewer is wondering so Artosis can explain it. I think he just plays kind of a role and he does it perfectly. On topic I think it's definetly needed that someone entertains while the other does the analysis. A lot of people wont watch if its only analysis while there is the more hardcore group that wouldn't watch as much if it was only entertainment. So they try to combine it to hook up as many viewers to the stream at all times it's just business :p.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
The balanced mix is probably your safest bet to get as many people to watch your cast as possible, from the pure entertainment seeker to the hardcore analyst.
So applying this to the current topic (without actually knowing kellymilkies), I'd wager that Torch will take over the analysis part because he does have a decent amount of game knowledge and kelly will provide more of the play by play part. I guess we'll have to see how their chemistry and balance is to judge them as a casting duo.
And because people seemed to enjoy them, another round of caster stats. All my personal opinion, obviously.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/YhOSt.png)
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Game knowledge is essential, there is no real way to commentate withour real game knowledge. However game knowledge along won't cut it. Artosis really give alot play by play during the GSL. But when I listen to him cast along on youtube, it's a little dry. You will definelly learn a lot from it. But it's not something go well with pizza and coke.
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Explained this in the other thread that quickly turned into a bash Kelly thread.
The most popular and respected English football commentators are not ex Pro's (John Motson). The most respected Formula 1 Commentator in the world did not race (Murray Walker) Being a professional player does not make you a better commentator / caster. It's not important aslong as you can communicate what is happening on screen and keep the audience engaged. and She'll have Torch backing her up anyway, give her a chance before condemning her.
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On February 17 2011 05:55 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:50 thebigdonkey wrote:On February 17 2011 05:45 KOFgokuon wrote:
How much do you think multi-sports casters like Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Mike Breen, Gus Johnson truly understand about the games that they are casting? You just need a good voice, some basic knowledge of players, moves, and enough to do the play by play and have your analyst explain all of the nitty gritty. Same thing goes for video game casts FYI Gus Johnson is terrible at casting MMA. I would say MMA is a very close comparison to SC2 because it's very technical and it's easy to miss the important details. I loved it when Bas Rutten casted MMA. And he knew his stuff, while being ridiculously over the top with humor sometimes.
Yeah Bas was amazing and the play by play guy for Pride was not bad either. The Pride play by play guy (i can't remember his name) was the third man in the booth for Strikeforce last Saturday and imo they should have just kicked Gus Johnson out and kept him and Shamrock.
Explained this in the other thread that quickly turned into a bash Kelly thread.
The most popular and respected English football commentators are not ex Pro's (John Motson). The most respected Formula 1 Commentator in the world did not race (Murray Walker) Being a professional player does not make you a better commentator / caster. It's not important aslong as you can communicate what is happening on screen and keep the audience engaged. and She'll have Torch backing her up anyway, give her a chance before condemning her.
Not a good comparison. F1 is very straightforward to call as the main commentator as long as you have ex-engineer/driver types to give you the gritty mechanical details. Football (soccer) also is not difficult to call from a technical perspective. I would say that being extremely articulate and having a strong command of vibrant language is the most important skill to have as a football announcer as there are many lulls in the game. Besides, we don't know what her role is gonna be yet. From what I can see, she's kind of in a no-man's land. Not a good enough player to be the analyst and not a strong enough personality to be the play by play.
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I really like that chart Bobster posted haha. It's pretty good.
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On February 17 2011 05:24 Bobster wrote:All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!) There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously). Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type. There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately. I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order) - Game knowledge - Analytic Ability - Quick Wit - Humour - Enthusiasm I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses. And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_> I personally think people severly underestimate the game knowledge of Tasteless. I think ( but it's just speculation ofc ) that it's his job to get Artosis to analyze what I mean by that is that Tasteless is the one who has to ask the questions what he thinks every viewer is wondering so Artosis can explain it. I think he just plays kind of a role and he does it perfectly. On topic I think it's definetly needed that someone entertains while the other does the analysis. A lot of people wont watch if its only analysis while there is the more hardcore group that wouldn't watch as much if it was only entertainment. So they try to combine it to hook up as many viewers to the stream at all times it's just business :p.
Those depictions are fairly accurate. Game knowledge isn't the be all end all characteristic, especially if you are working on a team (one person does the play-by-play and the other is on color). However, you left out one of the most essential components:
- ability to articulate and project in a clear and concise manner (many commentators have very deep voices, even female casters)
There are many others, but there is no reason to talk at length about them.
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I love how so many people compare Starcraft and football/other sport casting. Don't you realize it's totally different? StarCraft is so much more complex and so much faster then most of these things. If you want to compare the casting of StarCraft to anything, you should compare it probably to chess or some other intellectual sport.
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Case in Point: Huskystarcraft
As much as many don't want to believe, Husky honestly does not have much game knowledge at all. However, he casts his games with a laid back and hilarious manner thus making him the most popular US commentator. Honestly, its people like Husky who will net this game and e-sports in general a much broader fan base and then it will be up to the knowledgeable commentators to satisfy those who are becoming experienced at the game.
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yes it is, i hate listening to people who don't tell me anything interesting and insightful
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/1/15/KellyMILKIES.jpg)
