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Take for example the UFC you have Mike Goldberg who has lets admit it not a freaking clue what's going on in the matchup.
I hate Goldberg so much for that. He just spouts hyperbole without any logical justification. Exactly what I don't want.
I think this draws an interesting parallel to John Madden, insanely popular at football commentating without providing actual analysis.
If you think Madden never had any actual analysis, you weren't listening carefully enough. He was a head coach once upon a time, he knew what he was talking about.
On February 17 2011 05:05 brentsen wrote:
On a side note I kind of enjoyed Jason Lee even though his SC2 knowledge was quite poor.
You know why Jason Lee was good? He didn't pretend to know what he was talking about. He just called the action and then set up his analyst to explain why it was happening.
On February 17 2011 05:13 KevinIX wrote:
Really? I thought Kelly Milkis had a very solid understanding of the game when I watched her cast the SEA tourny with TotalBiscuit. I really enjoyed that series. I think she will be a great caster.
Seriously? She seemed stumped for a bit as to why the zerg wasn't taking his backdoor expansion on Delta when it was the closest base to terran meaning it was very vulnerable to any drops. That's elementary stuff and she almost missed it entirely. I'm not a great player, so if I'm picking up these things before the caster, there's a problem.
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Tastosis > anyone else, period.
It's Artosis passion and his great game understanding and his ability to hype up a game so much that is getting me excited all the time and it's Tasteless ability to keep the discussion running by miming the unaware person often times, which is very, very important in casting.
Both of em are great and passionate about what they do and everything about them is just perfect; they're funny, they're nice to listen to (don't have any sort of annoying accent), kinda self ironic and they know everything about this game.
Replacing them is the stupidest decision gom could ever make, it would hurt esports outside of korea so much. I would NOT watch all the games I'm able to, just the ones featuring my nerd IdrA and maybe the roundof8/4 and onwards.
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All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!)
There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously).
Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type.
There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately.
I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order)
- Game knowledge
- Analytic Ability
- Quick Wit
- Humour
- Enthusiasm
I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses.
And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_>
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/GCn6L.png)
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On February 17 2011 04:56 Iamyournoob wrote:
I think the most important thing for a caster is to create atmosphere. I want a caster to make the game exciting, to speed up my pulse when a battle is going on and make an event out of a match.
Some extremely tense moments in SC2 aren't easily recognized by someone who lacks in game knowledge. There is a lot of time in SC2 where there isn't much going on. Being able to fill that time with strategic analysis is what makes it more fun to watch. Watching two people macro up isn't more exciting when you are screaming at the top of your lungs and making irrelevant jokes.
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On February 17 2011 05:24 Bobster wrote:All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!) There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously). Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type. There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately. I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order) - Game knowledge - Analytic Ability - Quick Wit - Humour - Enthusiasm I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses. And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_>
Those graphics are awesome xD
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It definitely helps but isn't required. Especially if you're going to be talking about distinct roles of commentator/caster, if you're the "caster" then you really don't need to have a high level of game knowledge theoretically, given these roles are taken to the extreme.
I don't really like how they call them commentator/caster though. It makes sense but is it important to distinguish them? Why can't they both do a bit of each? (like they are now)
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If people admit they don't have the knowledge and don't try to fake it and instead play more of a inquisitive role (alone or with a co-caster) they can do fine with pretty limited knowledge (totalbiscuit e.g.).
As soon as you start talking in absolutes then you better have something to back it up because even very knowledgable people sometimes slip up and/or "mis-elaborate" something causing them to make statements that are not always theorically correct/true and that can make for some cringeworthy moments. It can be very subtle stuff and it happens to every one but to some more so than others and scales distinctly with game knowledge for obvious reasons.
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personally i get really annoyed when caster's don't have sufficient enough game knowledge. usually when i realize that i know more than them and that all they're doing is yelling about stuff i just mute the stream and watch the game. that's usually why i get really excited about listening to casters like day9, chill, tastetosis instead of other random shoutcasters. i was really excited for code A this season because of the four foreigner seeds, but now not so much. i'll still give it a chance and hope for the best, who knows, i may be surprised.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2011 04:17 MementoMori wrote:With the announcement of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KellyMILKIES as the new GSL code A caster I've read many posts questioning her game knowledge. Setting aside whether or not she truly does possess game knowledge, the question comes to mind, is it even important? In my view, there's an important distinction between casting and commentating. Our favorite casting archon tastosis is comprised of one caster and one commentator (see below) ![[image loading]](http://oi52.tinypic.com/9ropqh.jpg) Artosis fills his role of commentator by providing game high level game knowledge. While Tasteless does sometimes cross into this role as well, his primary role has been entertainment value. I think that entertainment value is something which is being forgotten in many discussions of casters or casting teams. It seems very likely that Kelly will not be casting alone and with rumors going around that she will be joined by http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/TorcH, what does it matter if she does not have as much game knowledge as Artosis for example? She will likely fill the role that Tasteless has been filling. To me, entertainment value is a huge part of watching something like the GSL. It would be easy to find a pro player who could sit down and robotically say what each player is probably thinking but nobody would watch that. In the GSL specifically, it comes down to the team (one person for entertainment, one person for game knowledge). As another example, take the cynnical brit Total Biscuit. He may not always be the most knowledgeable, but his enthusiasm is contagious (at least it for a lot of people). I really think the most important quality for a caster to have is personality. We are watching things like the GSL for entertainment after all, and if entertaining commentators weren't important I think we'd all just be watching replays instead. Commentaros fill that role and I think skill in commentating is just as important (if not more important) than straight up game knowledge. I just feel like sometimes people say they want one thing in a caster, but when we look at the most popular casters out there at the moment, I think the conclusion we have to come to is that the average person isn't looking for tip-top game knowledge, they're looking to be entertained. What do you guys think? Is entertaining commentary with likable personalities necessary to help bring esports the popularity it deserves globally and in the West? Or is game knowledge the #1 consideration for you? Also, since the majority of us would like to see SC2 popular in the west, what kind of caster/commentating team do you think would be best to reach a wider audience? Edit: I'm definitely not trying to say that a funny guy off the street who has absolutely no game knowledge at all would be good by any stretch. Certainly, they must have at least some.
yes game knowledge is required. it was sooo bad when tasteless would ask a question about something he should already know and he still does subtle things along those lines.
edit: oops quoted whole op
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I think husky's popularity is proof enough that it isn't necessary. However i personally prefer if the caster knew what was going on. I seem to get really annoyed when a caster spouts something that isn't true or accurate.
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On February 17 2011 05:33 IrrasO wrote:
personally i get really annoyed when caster's don't have sufficient enough game knowledge. usually when i realize that i know more than them and that all they're doing is yelling about stuff i just mute the stream and watch the game. that's usually why i get really excited about listening to casters like day9, chill, tastetosis instead of other random shoutcasters. i was really excited for code A this season because of the four foreigner seeds, but now not so much. i'll still give it a chance and hope for the best, who knows, i may be surprised.
if the second caster is TorcH like everyone is guessing then I wouldn't worry
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The thing is, Torch is the one to be analytical and well versed - her role is to be the color commentator. I don't need a Master league level player to be the color commentator; I need someone who can be entertaining, who can stir emotion in us when action is happening, and who can talk through duller bits where there isn't anything to be analyzed. Can Kelly fit this bill? I personally don't think so, but we will have to see when Code A starts.
With regards to the caster whose role is to be analytical (Artosis, Torch, Day9), they HAVE to have knowledge. They HAVE to be good, or have some way of learning what good players know. If that caster sees a certain number of units and probes, he/she must be able to extrapolate the goal of the player from that because expert players do the same from scouting! I don't want my caster to make mistakes all the time by calling the wrong build orders.
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On February 17 2011 05:26 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 05:24 Bobster wrote:All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!) There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously). Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type. There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately. I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order) - Game knowledge - Analytic Ability - Quick Wit - Humour - Enthusiasm I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses. And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_> Those graphics are awesome xD
So I actually think there are two distinct day[9] caster personalities. Day[9] on the daily and day[9] casting a tournament or some kind of game only meant to be enjoyed. Day[9] can be more enthusiastic than just about anybody while casting Funday Monday for example, but he doesn't want enthusiasm to be a distraction from learning during a normal daily. Also Tasteless is off the chart for quick wit. I also feel like fake weatherman is a category that some casters can end up doing when they try to be too serious, it's a category that's hard to put on that graph though and it's not good.
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I don't think a person needs to be a great player to be a great commentator, but there are things they need to be able to do well to do their job properly. Game knowledge is obviously a big part of that. A commentator should have a good voice, an engaging personality, an entertaining manner, and a strong knowledge of the games and the players. It's not too much to ask.
Edit: there are also some people who are disparaging Tasteless' game knowledge in this thread and I don't understand it. He may be goofy and he makes silly mistakes from time to time but his game sense and build order knowledge is equal to Artosis and Day[9]'s.
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On February 17 2011 05:34 SlapMySalami wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2011 04:17 MementoMori wrote:With the announcement of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KellyMILKIES as the new GSL code A caster I've read many posts questioning her game knowledge. Setting aside whether or not she truly does possess game knowledge, the question comes to mind, is it even important? In my view, there's an important distinction between casting and commentating. Our favorite casting archon tastosis is comprised of one caster and one commentator (see below) Artosis fills his role of commentator by providing game high level game knowledge. While Tasteless does sometimes cross into this role as well, his primary role has been entertainment value. I think that entertainment value is something which is being forgotten in many discussions of casters or casting teams. It seems very likely that Kelly will not be casting alone and with rumors going around that she will be joined by http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/TorcH, what does it matter if she does not have as much game knowledge as Artosis for example? She will likely fill the role that Tasteless has been filling. To me, entertainment value is a huge part of watching something like the GSL. It would be easy to find a pro player who could sit down and robotically say what each player is probably thinking but nobody would watch that. In the GSL specifically, it comes down to the team (one person for entertainment, one person for game knowledge). As another example, take the cynnical brit Total Biscuit. He may not always be the most knowledgeable, but his enthusiasm is contagious (at least it for a lot of people). I really think the most important quality for a caster to have is personality. We are watching things like the GSL for entertainment after all, and if entertaining commentators weren't important I think we'd all just be watching replays instead. Commentaros fill that role and I think skill in commentating is just as important (if not more important) than straight up game knowledge. I just feel like sometimes people say they want one thing in a caster, but when we look at the most popular casters out there at the moment, I think the conclusion we have to come to is that the average person isn't looking for tip-top game knowledge, they're looking to be entertained. What do you guys think? Is entertaining commentary with likable personalities necessary to help bring esports the popularity it deserves globally and in the West? Or is game knowledge the #1 consideration for you? Also, since the majority of us would like to see SC2 popular in the west, what kind of caster/commentating team do you think would be best to reach a wider audience? Edit: I'm definitely not trying to say that a funny guy off the street who has absolutely no game knowledge at all would be good by any stretch. Certainly, they must have at least some. yes game knowledge is required. it was sooo bad when tasteless would ask a question about something he should already know and he still does subtle things along those lines. edit: oops quoted whole op
You know some of that is an act, right? To make the cast nub friendly. I guess it's hard to make acting friendly for acting nubs.....
Also my two cents: Game knowledge in terms of being a pro is not necessary to be a good caster NOW, but to have a sustained success it will be. There are some casters who have trouble helping the audience learn what's good about the play and their ability to contribute as casters diminishes over time because every match they cast feels the same.
BUT, way more important that game knowledge is player knowledge. I've heard casters embarrass themselves by not knowing who the players are and what some of their accomplishments are and from an eSports perspective that's unacceptable. I'm not talking about not knowing who some random scrub is, but saying things such as (exaggerated) "I haven't heard much about this IMNestea guy so he's probably not a very good zerg". Would basketball fans ever accept a commentator for basketball who had no idea who Tim Duncan was even though he's not as good now? No, and commentators really need to work on it.
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On February 17 2011 05:24 Bobster wrote:All up to personal preference. Some want the insight, some want the pure entertainment, some want the mix (either in a single person, or by combining one and the other - Tastosis!) There's people who do not care about game knowledge, and can appreciate enthusiastic casters that are purely entertaining without showing deeper insight into the game. Popular casters like Totalbiscuit, Khaldor, itmeJP, Tasteless or Husky are good examples for this, (albeit to varying degrees, obviously). Then there are the dryer analysts, who drop the game knowledge, know all the timings and BOs inside out and can correctly predict how a game will progress from a certain point on, but are themselves not the most entertaining persons to listen to. Examples for this type of caster would be most pro-gamers without casting experience, like Idra when he stood in during GSL1, Martijn from Assembly, that type. There's also the very rare breed of the caster that excels in several of these areas, people who are entertaining and funny, yet possess a deep knowledge of the game as well. Artosis, Day9, incontrol are names that come to mind immediately. I think the relevant caster skills would be (in no particular order) - Game knowledge - Analytic Ability - Quick Wit - Humour - Enthusiasm I think everyone agrees that a caster needs either a solid stat in every category, or has to truly excel in one or two categories to be worth listening to. Of course, caster duos add these up and in this way can make up for each other's weaknesses. And what the hell, just for fun, have some whimsical graphs on how I see some of the casters. >_>
I personally think people severly underestimate the game knowledge of Tasteless. I think ( but it's just speculation ofc ) that it's his job to get Artosis to analyze what I mean by that is that Tasteless is the one who has to ask the questions what he thinks every viewer is wondering so Artosis can explain it. I think he just plays kind of a role and he does it perfectly.
On topic I think it's definetly needed that someone entertains while the other does the analysis. A lot of people wont watch if its only analysis while there is the more hardcore group that wouldn't watch as much if it was only entertainment. So they try to combine it to hook up as many viewers to the stream at all times it's just business :p.
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i think you need at least one pro / ex-pro for a really good commentary
isnt it like that in most sports ? 
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I'm just worried about the fact that her ability to speak English will impair her ability to be an effective color commentary. Your color commentary needs to be witty and I'm just not seeing it from watching her video with Totalbiscuit. She seems too ditsy for my taste.
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How much do you think multi-sports casters like Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Mike Breen, Gus Johnson truly understand about the games that they are casting? You just need a good voice, some basic knowledge of players, moves, and enough to do the play by play and have your analyst explain all of the nitty gritty. Same thing goes for video game casts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/1/15/KellyMILKIES.jpg)
