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On February 12 2011 11:20 Zechs wrote:
"But I don't think 3 weeks are enough to prepare a new player for PvT mined-out 80 minute endgame."
Actually, Grubby was kind of infamous in WC3 for getting into crazy base-trade situations. I realise the Sarens game wasn't a base-trade, but i can imagine Grubby actually felt very comfortable in such a bizarre position. Alongside Moon he was the best in the game at that kind of bizarre late-game decision-making and at 'buying time' even if his chances of winning are slim-to-none. You can see this in the Tyler game on X'NC. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if he pulled a win out of that game. His blink stalker harassment reminded me so much of his raider hit-'n'-runs.
On the broader topic of WC3 pros in SC2, i'd like to see more human players move across. Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously, and i think his playstyle is much more suited to SC2 than Grubby's.
Might have to do something with the his understanding and experience with the Warcraft3.
SC2 is different, but he did show cool-headed decision making (even though it wasn't optimal). I am excited to see him in 6 months :S
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No one is refuting what he did in WC3. Grubby is 'relatively' new to the scene. He just started dedicating more time to SC2.
There is a difference between watching a game and yelling at the screen without thought and watching with purpose/intent and knowledge to pin point what precise moments cost the player the game. I will use Sarens versus Grubby game 1 as an example:
- Sarens wasted over 3.5k in static turret defense to slow Grubby down
- once Sarens managed to take down the first wave of carriers and gain air control he played passive and didn't try to take out the stargates and force Grubby to either counterattack or waste resources and warp-in units to the island
As a result, he lost a 1 hour and 25 minute game where Grubby had saturated the left-side of the map before he did.
I don't question Grubby's drive. Like I said before, he has all the right players in the tool shed to help him make a name for himself in SC2. I've trained a lot of great RTS players in the past and I know talent when I see it. Grubby has talent.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_III_World_Championships
to all the non wc3 fans. this will show you just how good grubby is
grubby is in the top 4 of the biggest tournaments 17 times and 19 times he is apart of a top 4 team.
moon 14 times solo and 15 as apart of a team.
also EG fans notice axslav and strifcro in the world 2v2 championships 2nd place. They were soooooooooooooooo good at 2v2, mostly they would be in the biggest team league every year and win almost all there 2's
also you can find ToD on that list a bunch as well. he plays vs socke tommorow
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On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting.
You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S.
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ive been a huge grubby fanboy since like... 2004, all through wc3 hes been one of the nicest and strongest guys in the scene
i'm extremely excited that those not from wc3 are recognizing that he has true potential to be a really solid player... obviously not saying hes perfect now but i believe he has the ability to become a top sc2 player in EU should he switch over fulltime practicing
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On February 12 2011 11:36 IndridCold wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_III_World_Championshipsto all the non wc3 fans. this will show you just how good grubby is grubby is in the top 4 of the biggest tournaments 17 times and 19 times he is apart of a top 4 team. moon 14 times solo and 15 as apart of a team. also EG fans notice axslav and strifcro in the world 2v2 championships 2nd place. They were soooooooooooooooo good at 2v2, mostly they would be in the biggest team league every year and win almost all there 2's also you can find ToD on that list a bunch as well. he plays vs socke tommorow
ToD didn't seem all that impressive. If Demuslim had been playing, I highly doubt he would have made it into the next round.
Being gosu at WC3 doesn't automatically mean you will be good at SC2.
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On February 12 2011 11:34 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:20 Zechs wrote:
"But I don't think 3 weeks are enough to prepare a new player for PvT mined-out 80 minute endgame."
Actually, Grubby was kind of infamous in WC3 for getting into crazy base-trade situations. I realise the Sarens game wasn't a base-trade, but i can imagine Grubby actually felt very comfortable in such a bizarre position. Alongside Moon he was the best in the game at that kind of bizarre late-game decision-making and at 'buying time' even if his chances of winning are slim-to-none. You can see this in the Tyler game on X'NC. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if he pulled a win out of that game. His blink stalker harassment reminded me so much of his raider hit-'n'-runs.
On the broader topic of WC3 pros in SC2, i'd like to see more human players move across. Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously, and i think his playstyle is much more suited to SC2 than Grubby's. Might have to do something with the his understanding and experience with the Warcraft3. SC2 is different, but he did show cool-headed decision making (even though it wasn't optimal). I am excited to see him in 6 months :S
Don't get me wrong, he's a long way from the finished article, and i'm no fanboy. I was just pointing out that WC3 did have its fare share of drawn-out endgame scenarios and that in itself is nothing new to a veteran WC3 player.
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On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S.
There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one.
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I don't really understand everyones concern about grubby being impressive at sc2 right away... It's almost as if this thread is trying to justifying his skill or something which I find odd.
He was unarguably the best war3 player in history? (Sorry didn't follow war3 closely but I know he won 3 wcg grand finals?) the guys legacy is already immense, why would him struggling at a new game that he's hardly played for a month make any difference to his legacy...
Give it time, I'm sure if he dedicates himself he can be a top sc2 player. Right now he's literally been playing for a month, I don't really understand all of this discussion/debate, why?
I know he played in a TL Open a few weeks ago and lost in the first round to theognis... O_o
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I doubt that he will be a Top Tier SC player. Many Wc3 "pros" tried and almost all of them failed. He will most likely be able to win some small online tournaments but i dont see him winning gsl/mlg or any other major tournament in the near future.
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On February 12 2011 11:20 Zechs wrote:
Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously.
Tod practices a lot and plays pretty seriously, he goes to lans, ladders and practices in cg's and plays online cups. No secret there and he knows it. He did arrive later after the release but he put in a lot of effort in his practice, don't make it look like he just popped out of wc3 retirement to be at the level he is today on the spot, because it is not the case.
As for grub, well of course he needs training, I think that nazgul summed it up the best. It's impressive that he put up a good fight against guys who have been on point since beta, and who were brood players as well (let's not get the wc3 / brood debate here, I just assume that mechanics-wize its closer to bw than wc3).
to be honest I find it more than normal that he lost this time. Make him come next time with ladder practice + custom game practice with team mates like all the other guys have and then we will see what's up with him. I always loved the guy in wc3, I'd love to see him at a good euro level, but do not think that because he was the king of orcs on wc3 means that he will have his seat in top3 once he switches, he is going to have to deserve it, and the competition is pretty damn rude in europe.
good luck to him.
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On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one.
Btw, do you know, why Lucifron stopped playing SC2?
+ Show Spoiler +
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3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit.
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Tournament Experience.
It doesn't matter how much practice you put in or how long you have been playing a game, tournament experience and knowing how to react under pressure is something that is huge a factor in a LAN environment and Grubby has this in spades.
If someone is a good or bad player is irrelevant if they fall apart when it comes to the matches that count, however Grubby is one of the most experienced pro gamers around and steps up rather than down when it comes to high pressure matches. Not to mention the fact his experience is with WC3 which would often result in really long matches, adding to the pressure factor even more.
There are probably hundreds, even thousands of master league players better than Grubby is at SC2 right now. But would they be able to beat Grubby at a LAN Tournament? Doubtful.
It's just a matter of time and practice for him to be able to match other high level SC2 players in game skill rather than just tournament ability.
You can't really say how good he can be in the future as depends on so many things.
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On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit.
I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno.
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19 days of playing the game and seeing him play that well in a game so focused on macro in order to keep up with europes best players. Grubby definitely impressed me, and he's such a likeable guy, can't wait to see more.
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On February 12 2011 11:52 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit. I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno.
Yes I would say this is the case. He played before in beta, he played on release, I just think since the beginning of release beta he has not been focusing on starcraft as perhaps he did not get the results he was expecting? could make more money with war3? 3 weeks would be the time i'd assume he started taking sc2 more seriously. Saying he's been playing only 3 weeks is ridiculous. I want to see him quit war3 and dedicate himself to starcraft, but he's probably too attached to WC3 from an economical standpoint. I feel if he does not dedicate himself to starcraft he will not be on the same level that some of the other war 3 players are at (Lyn). Looking at his games today he has a long way to go.
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On February 12 2011 11:55 SladeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:52 LuckyFool wrote:On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit. I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno. Yes I would say this is the case. He played before in beta, he played on release, I just think since the beginning of release beta he has not been focusing on starcraft as perhaps he did not get the results he was expecting? could make more money with war3? 3 weeks would be the time i'd assume he started taking sc2 more seriously. Saying he's been playing only 3 weeks is ridiculous. I want to see him quit war3 and dedicate himself to starcraft, but he's probably too attached to WC3 from an economical standpoint.
agreed with this i'd imagine he still has a wc3 contract with EG so probably can't just immediately drop it... plus he's stated how much he loves wc3 over the past 8 years that it likely is also he just doesnt want to let go too quickly
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Grubby will be very successful at SC2 if he can find the desire and dedication to play it. Grubby is a kind of gaming genius out there that can play well in any games.
He was/is one of the leading figure of WC3 scene. He got enormous potential, and if he quit WC3 entirely and focus on SC2. Give him 6 months or so he will be a force to be reckon on.
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imagine grubby and idra in the EG team house in korea when grubby gets more experienced? omgggggggggggg that would be epicly pwnage
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EPT
