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So this guy who I've never heard of before and who apparently is pretty good at WC3 started playing SC2 three weeks ago and is now competing in some European tournies.
WC3 players are known to be pretty smart about unit movement and how they engage in battles and he certainly doesn't disappoint. Granted I've only seen his games vs Teeler and Sarens, 2 old-school BW players, but he certainly held his own against the 2.
While he showed weak macro (probes'n'pylons) throughout, the way he was able to frequently force his opponents into uncomfortable do-or-die situations was very impressive for someone so new to SC2.
The only mistakes I've seen him to were easily explainable by lack of experience, f.e. in g1 where he had a way superior army of 10 carriers, 1 mothership + a few templar, archons and stalkers against 6 vikings, 1 PF, and about 30 MM + 3 ghosts.
But I don't think 3 weeks are enough to prepare a new player for PvT mined-out 80 minute endgame.
He already has a very good understanding of army management and is always eager to counter-attack, something even the likes of Tyler have shown to have trouble with. I think this ability to always think on your feet and not try to brute-force a situation is a great asset for any player and something that is almost impossible to learn once you've grown familiar with a game.
The best example for this is IdrA (who I've, mind you, watched almost all tournament & stream games of). He almost always attacks his opponent head-on and if you study his losses you will find that almost all of them can be attributed to some stupid attack in an unfavorable position and off-creep (which is apparently synonymous to IMBALANCE to him).
I'm not very often impressed by new players (especially not ones coming from WC3 :D) but I think Grubby shows a lot of potential, being able to put up such a good fight against top-of-the-line players after only 3 weeks of practice. If he continues to practice and goes SC2 full-time - instead of trying to do both - I'm 100% confident that he will start taking titles very soon. I'm definitely looking forward to his future games :D
I'll update this post with some of his VODs as I find them. Here are some posts from the LR thread.
On February 12 2011 10:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Interesting there are people out there disappointed with Grubbys performance. Guy went 1-2 with one of Europes better Terrans and almost beat him after only a few weeks of dedication to SC2. I thought Tyler and Sarens were going to roll him solely based on lack of experience. Positively surprised 
On February 12 2011 09:57 4of8 wrote:
I mean Grubby is playing this game for around a 3-4 weeks and nearly beats Sarens in a BO3(WTF). In fact without this huge fail attack in the end there was no way for Sarens for a comeback. Give him another 3-4 weeks and he will crush everyone like he did in WC3.
On February 12 2011 10:02 GenoZStriker wrote:"SarenS said Grubby played well, considering that he only got started with Starcraft II for 3 weeks. We’ll take that as a praise. Here, they are looking at the replay together." According to Cassandra.
Oh and btw, everyone who keeps mentioning g3 vs sarens, he essentially had the game won after he murdered sarens expo but in the end it didnt matter because he had the chance to get 2nd in the group (and advance) lost after he went 1-1 and it was past 1am after 90 minutes of constant playing.
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Russian Federation124 Posts
LMFAO i could only wish Incontrol will see this
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Nice read man. I'm sure he'd appreciate this a lot. As much as I would have loved to see him beat SarenS, that last part on Jungle Basin somewhat showed that he was not sure what he had to do and just attacked thinking that his stronger army would break through.
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I was very impressed by Grubby's play aswell, he showed (at least for me) a couple of ideas I've haven't really seen before. It makes me look forward to when Grubby starts playing SC2 full time and gets solid in this game, hopefully be able to be a pioneer in SC2.
This comes from a fanboy since a few hours back, I never followed WC3
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I'd love to have seen Incontrol cast that game.
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Give him a month or two and he'll be ripping up as one of Europe's best.
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Grubby has been playing sc2 for more than 3 weeks. With that said I felt his play against sarens was not up to par. He made many many critical errors and it seemed like he did not particularly know what he was doing at all times. For example the 1.5 hour game he did not have a plan and did not know how to react, and later in the series just fell apart with poor builds and mechanics. Half the time I was shouting at my screen like "Omfg what are you doing!". The game on jungle basin made me cry, He had a perfect opportunity when his lance and 3rd colossus popped out, and he did nothing. Terran did not have vikings yet and he threw the game away. He sac'd his expansion with 3 colossus with thermal lance to a medivac of mnm, complete waste. Very poor decision making. He just is not that strong of a player currently and really needs to mass game to get used to a variety of situations. Watching him play made me angry.
His games against Nony were also quite frustrating. The one game on basin where he had gotten 2robo colossus, and just decided to run up into nonies natural and die was hard to watch. He had colossus on the way, would have gotten ahead in colossus count and threw that game away too. Two games he could have been ahead of nony quite substantially and he threw them away. This poor decision making is probably due to lack of focus on SC2.
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He's not that good yet, but he definitely has the chance of being very, very good. He needs to work a lot on his macro and decision making, but his micro is already better than a lot of other players. If he commits all of his time to SC2, I expect him to do extremely well.
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Grubby is quite good indeed!
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On February 12 2011 11:02 SladeR wrote:
Grubby has been playing sc2 for more than 3 weeks. With that said I felt his play against sarens was not up to par. He made many many critical errors and it seemed like he did not particularly know what he was doing at all times. For example the 1.5 hour game he did not have a plan and did not know how to react, and later in the series just fell apart with poor builds and mechanics. Half the time I was shouting at my screen like "Omfg what are you doing!".
could u last that long vs those kind of players?
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United States1073 Posts
I hope he starts to play more so he will become a beast.
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It's not like he doesn't have the practice partners to succeed and yeah, he's been playing a lot longer than 3 weeks. He's been putting more time and effort into the game. That is for sure. He still has a lot of hurdles to overcome like Mad Frog.
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On February 12 2011 11:02 SladeR wrote:
Grubby has been playing sc2 for more than 3 weeks. With that said I felt his play against sarens was not up to par. He made many many critical errors and it seemed like he did not particularly know what he was doing at all times. For example the 1.5 hour game he did not have a plan and did not know how to react, and later in the series just fell apart with poor builds and mechanics. Half the time I was shouting at my screen like "Omfg what are you doing!".
I hope that replay can get released so you can view it in grubby's vision. He had no way of telling how big sarens's army really was and didn't want to fight near PF or turrets. I think he had a very impressive showing these 2 games. Loved that micro against the bunker rush. IRC chat blew up when that happened.
If you compare that 200/200 fight vs the one he had vs sterling, he had way more production facilities, and did a great tech switch when he saw the number of marauders the terran had. His templar play is very impressive with the ghost feedback. I freaking screamed when he sacrificed his probes and used that to feedback 3 medivacs. That was a pimp move right there.
It feels like he's still exploring how to use stalker and zealot effectively. His 4 gate was very weak. Maybe he should practice that a little.
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The best example for this is IdrA (who I've, mind you, watched almost all tournament & stream games of). He almost always attacks his opponent head-on and if you study his losses you will find that almost all of them can be attributed to some stupid attack in an unfavorable position and off-creep (which is apparently synonymous to IMBALANCE to him).
I think your original post would be a lot better if you didn't include parts like this. Not only is it completely wrong, but all you're going to do is have people derail the thread to discuss it.
I agree on the topic of Grubby though. He had some really creative plays going on that I haven't seen many players do. Watching his matches, it's extremely obvious that he lacks experience. With that in mind it makes some of his plays even more exciting to see. The way he was dancing his colossi, high templar, carriers, and blink stalkers around on lost temple was especially impressive, considering he hasn't even figured out not to push down a ramp against tanks yet.
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On February 12 2011 11:02 SladeR wrote:
Grubby has been playing sc2 for more than 3 weeks. With that said I felt his play against sarens was not up to par. He made many many critical errors and it seemed like he did not particularly know what he was doing at all times. For example the 1.5 hour game he did not have a plan and did not know how to react, and later in the series just fell apart with poor builds and mechanics. Half the time I was shouting at my screen like "Omfg what are you doing!". The game on jungle basin made me cry, He had a perfect opportunity when his lance and 3rd colossus popped out, and he did nothing. Terran did not have vikings yet and he threw the game away. He sac'd his expansion with 3 colossus with thermal lance, complete waste. Very poor decision making. He just is not that strong of a player currently and really needs to mass game to get used to a variety of situations. Watching him play made me angry.
You didn't read OP's post, Grubby has been playing for 3 weeks dude, you are being way too harsh on him
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Grubby was playing in beta, and a little on release. Maybe started playing competitively 3 weeks ago. Or started putting more time and effort into the game at the time of 3 weeks ago. But he has played a good amount previously.
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It feels trite to point out that Grubby's play has flaws. The games today don't interest me much, regardless of how good or badly he did; he's been playing for such a relatively short amount of time that I can't imagine it really setting the tone for his SC2 career. In fact, unless he shocks me with unimaginable gosu powers at some point, I'm not sure I'm going to take his skill level and rate of advancement as representative until he decides to stop splitting his time between WC3 and SC2.
One last thing: Of course any WC3 player will be at least decent if they put their mind to the game. They share with Brood War players one of the biggest and important qualities that you need to be a truly successful progamer: the willingness to work hard as fuck.
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On February 12 2011 11:02 SladeR wrote:
Grubby has been playing sc2 for more than 3 weeks. With that said I felt his play against sarens was not up to par. He made many many critical errors and it seemed like he did not particularly know what he was doing at all times. For example the 1.5 hour game he did not have a plan and did not know how to react, and later in the series just fell apart with poor builds and mechanics. Half the time I was shouting at my screen like "Omfg what are you doing!". The game on jungle basin made me cry, He had a perfect opportunity when his lance and 3rd colossus popped out, and he did nothing. Terran did not have vikings yet and he threw the game away. He sac'd his expansion with 3 colossus with thermal lance to a medivac of mnm, complete waste. Very poor decision making. He just is not that strong of a player currently and really needs to mass game to get used to a variety of situations. Watching him play made me angry.
His games against Nony were also quite frustrating. The one game on basin where he had gotten 2robo colossus, and just decided to run up into nonies natural and die was hard to watch. He had colossus on the way, would have gotten ahead in colossus count and threw that game away too. Two games he could have been ahead of nony quite substantially and he threw them away. This poor decision making is probably due to lack of focus on SC2. casually playing the game when you aren't practicing for major wc3 tournaments and actually putting full pro effort practice into a game is completely different.
None the less you are right he made huge mistakes in those games that cost him the series. But he had a chance/advantage in alot of the games he lost today. If he figures out how to take full advantage when he gets one he will not lose those games.
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I really want to see Grubby do well in SC2, he just seems like such a likeable guy in every way..
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Ether way he hasn't been playing everyday since release like everyone else. Yes he has room to improve but so does everyone. with more practice i think he will be a really good player.
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On February 12 2011 11:02 SladeR wrote:
Grubby has been playing sc2 for more than 3 weeks. With that said I felt his play against sarens was not up to par. He made many many critical errors and it seemed like he did not particularly know what he was doing at all times. For example the 1.5 hour game he did not have a plan and did not know how to react, and later in the series just fell apart with poor builds and mechanics. Half the time I was shouting at my screen like "Omfg what are you doing!". The game on jungle basin made me cry, He had a perfect opportunity when his lance and 3rd colossus popped out, and he did nothing. Terran did not have vikings yet and he threw the game away. He sac'd his expansion with 3 colossus with thermal lance to a medivac of mnm, complete waste. Very poor decision making. He just is not that strong of a player currently and really needs to mass game to get used to a variety of situations. Watching him play made me angry.
His games against Nony were also quite frustrating. The one game on basin where he had gotten 2robo colossus, and just decided to run up into nonies natural and die was hard to watch. He had colossus on the way, would have gotten ahead in colossus count and threw that game away too. Two games he could have been ahead of nony quite substantially and he threw them away. This poor decision making is probably due to lack of focus on SC2.
Well, you make it quite apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about. Read my OP again and then THINK. The guy is new and you can't criticize him for not having perfect build orders or not being accustomed to 80 minute TvPs. Shouting at your screen "Omfg what are you doing!" just further points to a very poor understanding of the game. I've seen a shitton of games (f.e. my replay folder has about ~800 downloaded replays) and everything I saw showed promise of better things to come. Also after g2 he was already out of the tournament so any mistake after that cant be taken as a reliable indicator of his potential skill.
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its like anything; its always much easier to WATCH a game of SC2 and go "WTF ARE YOU DOING" than it is to actually be playing it.. While you are watching, you see every little mistake.. but for someone who just picked up the game afew weeks ago, he may not even notice those things yet.
Grubby is gonna be an allstar if he dedicates himself fully to SC2. Definitely GSL quality player once he has afew months of experience. Remember, Moon and Lyn are doing decent in the GSL, and you can argue Grubby was the most consistent player in WC3 when it comes to major non-korean tournaments (which the wc3 scene isnt as korea-oriented as bw)..
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will grubby be better than moon? what you guys think. moon hasn't been impressive thus far.
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He is not good, his decition making need refinement.
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It's Grubby, to those who doubt him never saw him in WC3.
He will easily be 1 of the the best SC2 players in the world in a matter of a few months.
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On February 12 2011 11:19 PhiliBiRD wrote:
It's Grubby, to those who doubt him never saw him in WC3.
He will easily be 1 of the the best SC2 players in the world in a matter of a few months.
....lol
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"But I don't think 3 weeks are enough to prepare a new player for PvT mined-out 80 minute endgame."
Actually, Grubby was kind of infamous in WC3 for getting into crazy base-trade situations. I realise the Sarens game wasn't a base-trade, but i can imagine Grubby actually felt very comfortable in such a bizarre position. Alongside Moon he was the best in the game at that kind of bizarre late-game decision-making and at 'buying time' even if his chances of winning are slim-to-none. You can see this in the Tyler game on X'NC. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if he pulled a win out of that game. His blink stalker harassment reminded me so much of his raider hit-'n'-runs.
On the broader topic of WC3 pros in SC2, i'd like to see more human players move across. Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously, and i think his playstyle is much more suited to SC2 than Grubby's.
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I'm not saying he wont be a good player, i'm saying that you cannot deny that his play today was quite bad. His play was not impressive at all. With that said, being good at starcraft is more effort than natural skill. Grubby's play today shows that he really needs work, and it will only be rectified by putting alot more time into ALOT more games.
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You guys are brown-nosing grubby so hard.
only person speaking with a clear mind is SladeR.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 12 2011 11:18 Phanekim wrote:
will grubby be better than moon. moon hasn't been impressive thus far.
If only Moon/Grubby would switch instead of being hybrids (This is obviously most likely a bad career move for them at this point though, but still).
Since Moon and Grubby has been such consistant players for so many years I have no doubt that they'll be top players in SC2 if they put their mind 100% to it.
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On February 12 2011 11:22 zonic wrote:
You guys are brown-nosing grubby so hard.
only person speaking with a clear mind is SladeR.
Thanks for the support 
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On February 12 2011 11:21 SladeR wrote:
I'm not saying he wont be a good player, i'm saying that you cannot deny that his play today was quite bad. His play was not impressive at all. With that said, being good at starcraft is more effort than natural skill. Grubby's play today really needs work, and it will only be rectified by putting alot more time into ALOT more games.
I dunno what I can say else than that you are completely wrong. Any player that has played sc2 for 3 weeks will have major fucking big-ass holes in his gameplay. That's nothing surprising and to be expected. The other stuff (that I talked about in my OP) however IS surprising and unexpected and that's why I made this thread.
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Chicken, he's been playing SC2 for more than three weeks, there were games in beta he played. He probably came back to it three weeks ago and is now playing it alot more.
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From grubbys twitter: "BTW to anyone wondering why I didn’t attack in Game 1 vs SarenS: I didn’t know if he was hiding a million Battlecruisers or was really down to no money so the only safe thing to do was a war of attrition. He had sick base defenses so I had to wear him down."
That should shut all the peopel ragging on him for not attacking up. I thought he played that 80 min game very very well, the only questionable thing was not attacking for so long at the end (which he just explained, he made the best choice with the information he had). Before that he was playing very well.. sniping turrets/buildings makeing sarens waste more of his limited minerals which would eventualyl cost him the game.
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On February 12 2011 11:21 SladeR wrote:
I'm not saying he wont be a good player, i'm saying that you cannot deny that his play today was quite bad. His play was not impressive at all. With that said, being good at starcraft is more effort than natural skill. Grubby's play today shows that he really needs work, and it will only be rectified by putting alot more time into ALOT more games.
You aren't really saying anything so different from everyone else, except your conclusion is negative whereas others see it as a positive. What you find 'bad' is what others find 'good given that he has just started playing'. We see and notice the same mistakes that you do. Nobody thinks he is a top player.
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Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting.
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If you were watching his games against Nony any bit closely, you'd see someone leagues behind their opposition. Nony was literally winning those games before any fights happened. I'm not saying he's never going to be good, it's just that a thread saying "Wow he really is an up and comer" is not what should be made after his games today.
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His games today weren't bad but they weren't amazing. He did show some things that indicate he could be strong in the future but he also showed a lack of experience. Luckily for him he has a very good team in EG so if he decides to take SC2 more seriously he could definitely be very good.
Don't expect him to be some kind of legend like he was in wc3 the games are completely different, I agree he has a great potential but saying things like he'll rape everyone or win gsl when he gets more practice is pretty unfair to him. The best way to approach this is to disregard his wc3 background when you watch him play, that way you don't have crazy high expectations for him and you can just enjoy watching him improve.
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On February 12 2011 11:15 ChickenLips wrote:
Sure he's a good player. But that can be said about any other player that devotes themselves to a game for a month. Especially if they've had some head start already, with Warcraft experience apparently. He makes many mistakes still. If you call his mistakes a sign of potential, then the same can be said about any other player, ever. And a good fight can mean a lot of things.
I wish he would become ridiculously good, since it can only be good for the development of the game, but I do not see him any differently than the hundreds of other players participating in tournaments. His play is solid; I just don't see what's especially amazing about it.
...lost after he went 1-1 and it was past 1am after 90 minutes of constant playing.
Is this an attempt to make an excuse for his losses? He lost because he played worse. Simple as that. His opponent probably had to deal with the exact same situation, and his opponent was able to overcome it. Even if I'm wrong, these are the conditions you must live through if you wish to be good. Say you played 100% in each and every game, then demanded a days' rest since you're not 100% up to par. You would get laughed at for suggesting something silly like that. Endurance is just as important as any other skill.
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he reminds me of madfrog (cept he's zerg)
both show brilliance at times but are overall sloppy.
im pretty sure grubby will become solid though and go far in a few euro tournaments in the future. Him, Lyn and Moon have the clear potential to be better than other "established wc3 to sc2 players" like check and maka.
It takes time though when you compare him with people that have 10 times his games played. (counting Beta games which we shouldnt underestimate in the lifetime of sc2)
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On February 12 2011 11:20 Zechs wrote:
"But I don't think 3 weeks are enough to prepare a new player for PvT mined-out 80 minute endgame."
Actually, Grubby was kind of infamous in WC3 for getting into crazy base-trade situations. I realise the Sarens game wasn't a base-trade, but i can imagine Grubby actually felt very comfortable in such a bizarre position. Alongside Moon he was the best in the game at that kind of bizarre late-game decision-making and at 'buying time' even if his chances of winning are slim-to-none. You can see this in the Tyler game on X'NC. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if he pulled a win out of that game. His blink stalker harassment reminded me so much of his raider hit-'n'-runs.
On the broader topic of WC3 pros in SC2, i'd like to see more human players move across. Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously, and i think his playstyle is much more suited to SC2 than Grubby's.
Might have to do something with the his understanding and experience with the Warcraft3.
SC2 is different, but he did show cool-headed decision making (even though it wasn't optimal). I am excited to see him in 6 months :S
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No one is refuting what he did in WC3. Grubby is 'relatively' new to the scene. He just started dedicating more time to SC2.
There is a difference between watching a game and yelling at the screen without thought and watching with purpose/intent and knowledge to pin point what precise moments cost the player the game. I will use Sarens versus Grubby game 1 as an example:
- Sarens wasted over 3.5k in static turret defense to slow Grubby down
- once Sarens managed to take down the first wave of carriers and gain air control he played passive and didn't try to take out the stargates and force Grubby to either counterattack or waste resources and warp-in units to the island
As a result, he lost a 1 hour and 25 minute game where Grubby had saturated the left-side of the map before he did.
I don't question Grubby's drive. Like I said before, he has all the right players in the tool shed to help him make a name for himself in SC2. I've trained a lot of great RTS players in the past and I know talent when I see it. Grubby has talent.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_III_World_Championships
to all the non wc3 fans. this will show you just how good grubby is
grubby is in the top 4 of the biggest tournaments 17 times and 19 times he is apart of a top 4 team.
moon 14 times solo and 15 as apart of a team.
also EG fans notice axslav and strifcro in the world 2v2 championships 2nd place. They were soooooooooooooooo good at 2v2, mostly they would be in the biggest team league every year and win almost all there 2's
also you can find ToD on that list a bunch as well. he plays vs socke tommorow
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On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting.
You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S.
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ive been a huge grubby fanboy since like... 2004, all through wc3 hes been one of the nicest and strongest guys in the scene
i'm extremely excited that those not from wc3 are recognizing that he has true potential to be a really solid player... obviously not saying hes perfect now but i believe he has the ability to become a top sc2 player in EU should he switch over fulltime practicing
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On February 12 2011 11:36 IndridCold wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_III_World_Championshipsto all the non wc3 fans. this will show you just how good grubby is grubby is in the top 4 of the biggest tournaments 17 times and 19 times he is apart of a top 4 team. moon 14 times solo and 15 as apart of a team. also EG fans notice axslav and strifcro in the world 2v2 championships 2nd place. They were soooooooooooooooo good at 2v2, mostly they would be in the biggest team league every year and win almost all there 2's also you can find ToD on that list a bunch as well. he plays vs socke tommorow
ToD didn't seem all that impressive. If Demuslim had been playing, I highly doubt he would have made it into the next round.
Being gosu at WC3 doesn't automatically mean you will be good at SC2.
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On February 12 2011 11:34 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:20 Zechs wrote:
"But I don't think 3 weeks are enough to prepare a new player for PvT mined-out 80 minute endgame."
Actually, Grubby was kind of infamous in WC3 for getting into crazy base-trade situations. I realise the Sarens game wasn't a base-trade, but i can imagine Grubby actually felt very comfortable in such a bizarre position. Alongside Moon he was the best in the game at that kind of bizarre late-game decision-making and at 'buying time' even if his chances of winning are slim-to-none. You can see this in the Tyler game on X'NC. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if he pulled a win out of that game. His blink stalker harassment reminded me so much of his raider hit-'n'-runs.
On the broader topic of WC3 pros in SC2, i'd like to see more human players move across. Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously, and i think his playstyle is much more suited to SC2 than Grubby's. Might have to do something with the his understanding and experience with the Warcraft3. SC2 is different, but he did show cool-headed decision making (even though it wasn't optimal). I am excited to see him in 6 months :S
Don't get me wrong, he's a long way from the finished article, and i'm no fanboy. I was just pointing out that WC3 did have its fare share of drawn-out endgame scenarios and that in itself is nothing new to a veteran WC3 player.
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On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S.
There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one.
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I don't really understand everyones concern about grubby being impressive at sc2 right away... It's almost as if this thread is trying to justifying his skill or something which I find odd.
He was unarguably the best war3 player in history? (Sorry didn't follow war3 closely but I know he won 3 wcg grand finals?) the guys legacy is already immense, why would him struggling at a new game that he's hardly played for a month make any difference to his legacy...
Give it time, I'm sure if he dedicates himself he can be a top sc2 player. Right now he's literally been playing for a month, I don't really understand all of this discussion/debate, why?
I know he played in a TL Open a few weeks ago and lost in the first round to theognis... O_o
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I doubt that he will be a Top Tier SC player. Many Wc3 "pros" tried and almost all of them failed. He will most likely be able to win some small online tournaments but i dont see him winning gsl/mlg or any other major tournament in the near future.
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On February 12 2011 11:20 Zechs wrote:
Tod has seemed pretty impressive for someone who doesn't really play that seriously.
Tod practices a lot and plays pretty seriously, he goes to lans, ladders and practices in cg's and plays online cups. No secret there and he knows it. He did arrive later after the release but he put in a lot of effort in his practice, don't make it look like he just popped out of wc3 retirement to be at the level he is today on the spot, because it is not the case.
As for grub, well of course he needs training, I think that nazgul summed it up the best. It's impressive that he put up a good fight against guys who have been on point since beta, and who were brood players as well (let's not get the wc3 / brood debate here, I just assume that mechanics-wize its closer to bw than wc3).
to be honest I find it more than normal that he lost this time. Make him come next time with ladder practice + custom game practice with team mates like all the other guys have and then we will see what's up with him. I always loved the guy in wc3, I'd love to see him at a good euro level, but do not think that because he was the king of orcs on wc3 means that he will have his seat in top3 once he switches, he is going to have to deserve it, and the competition is pretty damn rude in europe.
good luck to him.
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On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one.
Btw, do you know, why Lucifron stopped playing SC2?
+ Show Spoiler +
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3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit.
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Tournament Experience.
It doesn't matter how much practice you put in or how long you have been playing a game, tournament experience and knowing how to react under pressure is something that is huge a factor in a LAN environment and Grubby has this in spades.
If someone is a good or bad player is irrelevant if they fall apart when it comes to the matches that count, however Grubby is one of the most experienced pro gamers around and steps up rather than down when it comes to high pressure matches. Not to mention the fact his experience is with WC3 which would often result in really long matches, adding to the pressure factor even more.
There are probably hundreds, even thousands of master league players better than Grubby is at SC2 right now. But would they be able to beat Grubby at a LAN Tournament? Doubtful.
It's just a matter of time and practice for him to be able to match other high level SC2 players in game skill rather than just tournament ability.
You can't really say how good he can be in the future as depends on so many things.
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On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit.
I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno.
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19 days of playing the game and seeing him play that well in a game so focused on macro in order to keep up with europes best players. Grubby definitely impressed me, and he's such a likeable guy, can't wait to see more.
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On February 12 2011 11:52 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit. I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno.
Yes I would say this is the case. He played before in beta, he played on release, I just think since the beginning of release beta he has not been focusing on starcraft as perhaps he did not get the results he was expecting? could make more money with war3? 3 weeks would be the time i'd assume he started taking sc2 more seriously. Saying he's been playing only 3 weeks is ridiculous. I want to see him quit war3 and dedicate himself to starcraft, but he's probably too attached to WC3 from an economical standpoint. I feel if he does not dedicate himself to starcraft he will not be on the same level that some of the other war 3 players are at (Lyn). Looking at his games today he has a long way to go.
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On February 12 2011 11:55 SladeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:52 LuckyFool wrote:On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit. I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno. Yes I would say this is the case. He played before in beta, he played on release, I just think since the beginning of release beta he has not been focusing on starcraft as perhaps he did not get the results he was expecting? could make more money with war3? 3 weeks would be the time i'd assume he started taking sc2 more seriously. Saying he's been playing only 3 weeks is ridiculous. I want to see him quit war3 and dedicate himself to starcraft, but he's probably too attached to WC3 from an economical standpoint.
agreed with this i'd imagine he still has a wc3 contract with EG so probably can't just immediately drop it... plus he's stated how much he loves wc3 over the past 8 years that it likely is also he just doesnt want to let go too quickly
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Grubby will be very successful at SC2 if he can find the desire and dedication to play it. Grubby is a kind of gaming genius out there that can play well in any games.
He was/is one of the leading figure of WC3 scene. He got enormous potential, and if he quit WC3 entirely and focus on SC2. Give him 6 months or so he will be a force to be reckon on.
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imagine grubby and idra in the EG team house in korea when grubby gets more experienced? omgggggggggggg that would be epicly pwnage
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On February 12 2011 11:48 Ludwigvan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one. Btw, do you know, why Lucifron stopped playing SC2? + Show Spoiler +
I assume it's due to university.
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On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one.
so u started following Wc3 when? 2007 2008ish?
grubby was THE Orc after his first WCG win in 2004 together with Zacard he made Orc what it is.
so yes he was the best orc.
and with ur logic we never have a best player for 1 race.
Flash is not the best T because he lost sometimes vs fantasy or MVP.
i also wonder how he wasnt the king of wc3 with moon? they got him 2 or 3 times over 2 korea just to play 1!! bo5 against moon for like 10k$ or something.
wonder why this never happened to Fly , Lyn and hahaha Lucifron..
There was a time when he was THE one. not in the last 2 3 years but yeah in the start of his career.
on topic. his games were suprising good and i doubt we will find many people that play that good after 3 weeks. (playing some games in beta for fun or 2n2 with his GF u rlly think that means something?)
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Can we avoid turning this into a list of Grubby's previous accomplishments, please?
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Grubby needs more game experience on a high level and I look forward to seeing him in the future. His rate of improvement is impressive for the short period of dedicated training. You can't really compare a few games here and there over months with breaks to 3 weeks non stop.
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His hair is definitely grubby.
hurhurhur
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On February 12 2011 11:20 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:19 PhiliBiRD wrote:
It's Grubby, to those who doubt him never saw him in WC3.
He will easily be 1 of the the best SC2 players in the world in a matter of a few months. ....lol
Do you honestly not see him becoming a top 25-ish Western player by the end of the year assuming he dedicates his time to SC2? And if that's the case, why?
I'm actually genuinely curious, especially seeing the success of other former WC3 players in SC2.
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Grubby is a very intelligent player and i'm excited to see his performance in the future.
The best example for this is IdrA (who I've, mind you, watched almost all tournament & stream games of). He almost always attacks his opponent head-on and if you study his losses you will find that almost all of them can be attributed to some stupid attack in an unfavorable position and off-creep (which is apparently synonymous to IMBALANCE to him).
Ehh isn't this true about the vast majority of all games played?
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I was impressed. I am also a former war3 fan and grubby maniac.
I'm worried Grubby will continue to split his time and not go full time sc2 for another year or two. I understand why he still makes boatloads from War3. As a FAN I want him to go to the new big game but we will see.
People are stupid as shit to think with full sc2 dedication he couldn't be a top25 player in the next 6months or so.
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On February 12 2011 12:19 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:20 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On February 12 2011 11:19 PhiliBiRD wrote:
It's Grubby, to those who doubt him never saw him in WC3.
He will easily be 1 of the the best SC2 players in the world in a matter of a few months. ....lol Do you honestly not see him becoming a top 25-ish Western player by the end of the year assuming he dedicates his time to SC2? And if that's the case, why? I'm actually genuinely curious, especially seeing the success of other former WC3 players in SC2.
I would imagine his interpretation of "one of the best in the world" may have a higher standard than one of the 25ish best Western players.
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Grubby is a beast. He's been on the very top in WC3 for ages. Actually, there was a decently long period of time when he was dominating so hard that he was basically untouchable. I still remember that WC3L season when 4K won every clanwar and then at the finals they could field only 3 players (Grubby, Tod, Zeus?), which meant that they started every cw with one defloss (there were 4x1v1 bo3 + 1x2v2 bo3) and they still won, because Grubby and Tod refused to drop a game ^^
Grubby's got talent, dedication and experience. He'll certainly be able to catch up with the best soon.
For everybody who is not familiar with Grubby's wc3 success:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Schenkhuizen
Mind you that tons of small tourney and weekly cup wins are not listed there.
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What can I say except I never thought I'd like a Terran player. You know, besides TLO. Who actually plays the race TLO. You can read it on Liquipedia, it's a fact.
/bias
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On February 12 2011 12:10 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one. so u started following Wc3 when? 2007 2008ish? grubby was THE Orc after his first WCG win in 2004 together with Zacard he made Orc what it is. so yes he was the best orc. and with ur logic we never have a best player for 1 race. Flash is not the best T because he lost sometimes vs fantasy or MVP. i also wonder how he wasnt the king of wc3 with moon? they got him 2 or 3 times over 2 korea just to play 1!! bo5 against moon for like 10k$ or something. wonder why this never happened to Fly , Lyn and hahaha Lucifron.. There was a time when he was THE one. not in the last 2 3 years but yeah in the start of his career. on topic. his games were suprising good and i doubt we will find many people that play that good after 3 weeks. (playing some games in beta for fun or 2n2 with his GF u rlly think that means something?)
I don't usually reply to fanboys, but... are you for real? You claim that he was "THE ONE" while admitting in the exact same post that Zacard helped him to make orc what it is. Grubby was an excellent player, definitely one of the best, but THE best? Nope, sorry. Moon has more accomplishments and beat Grubby 1on1 many, many times. The reason that Lyn never flew to Korea to play in your fictional $10k series (any idea of what that was called or who sponsored it? No? Oh right, that's becuase you just fucking invented it... o_O) is because a) Lyn lives in Korea already... d'uh, and b) as i said, you just made that BO5 up - it's pretty funny.
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On February 12 2011 12:19 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:20 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On February 12 2011 11:19 PhiliBiRD wrote:
It's Grubby, to those who doubt him never saw him in WC3.
He will easily be 1 of the the best SC2 players in the world in a matter of a few months. ....lol Do you honestly not see him becoming a top 25-ish Western player by the end of the year assuming he dedicates his time to SC2? And if that's the case, why? I'm actually genuinely curious, especially seeing the success of other former WC3 players in SC2.
SC2 is a completely different game.
He could very well become a top 25 foreigner.
To expect and make claims for that to happen is an entire different ballgame.
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On February 12 2011 12:19 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:20 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On February 12 2011 11:19 PhiliBiRD wrote:
It's Grubby, to those who doubt him never saw him in WC3.
He will easily be 1 of the the best SC2 players in the world in a matter of a few months. ....lol Do you honestly not see him becoming a top 25-ish Western player by the end of the year assuming he dedicates his time to SC2? And if that's the case, why? I'm actually genuinely curious, especially seeing the success of other former WC3 players in SC2.
there's a difference between "top 25 western by the end of the year" and "one of the best in the world in a few months"
so many bait n switch arguments in this thread
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On February 12 2011 12:28 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 12:10 rasers wrote:On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one. so u started following Wc3 when? 2007 2008ish? grubby was THE Orc after his first WCG win in 2004 together with Zacard he made Orc what it is. so yes he was the best orc. and with ur logic we never have a best player for 1 race. Flash is not the best T because he lost sometimes vs fantasy or MVP. i also wonder how he wasnt the king of wc3 with moon? they got him 2 or 3 times over 2 korea just to play 1!! bo5 against moon for like 10k$ or something. wonder why this never happened to Fly , Lyn and hahaha Lucifron.. There was a time when he was THE one. not in the last 2 3 years but yeah in the start of his career. on topic. his games were suprising good and i doubt we will find many people that play that good after 3 weeks. (playing some games in beta for fun or 2n2 with his GF u rlly think that means something?) I don't usually reply to fanboys, but... are you for real? You claim that he was "THE ONE" while admitting in the exact same post that Zacard helped him to make orc what it is. Grubby was an excellent player, definitely one of the best, but THE best? Nope, sorry. Moon has more accomplishments and beat Grubby 1on1 many, many times. The reason that Lyn never flew to Korea to play in your fictional $10k series (any idea of what that was called or who sponsored it? No? Oh right, that's becuase you just fucking invented it... o_O) is because a) Lyn lives in Korea already... d'uh, and b) as i said, you just made that BO5 up - it's pretty funny.
i just talk about orcs not about Moon... Moon and grubby are pretty much 50/50.
Grubby was THE orc who won all that shit. Zacard was the one who gave orc the Blademaster.
i make this up? Superfight was the name of the "tournament" and lyn wasnt also the one who got the invite 2 play against him it was moon.
Lyn was a fucking scrub until 2007 so how on earth can u rate him higher then grubby? who was there from 2004 until now? and always on top
EVERY year he won atleast 1 major tournament.
iam not hist fanboy but i get sick when people dont give such guys enough credit. if u would talk so much bullshit about sky moon or whoever i would also write it.
not my fault u dont know Wc3 before 2007/2008 but tha tdoesnt mean i make things up.
oh look what i found http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1229249
when people start talking about elfs they start talking about moon.
when they start talking about a human player they talk about sky.
when they start talking about a orc player they talk about Grubby.(for ud there was not really THE ONE)
and u wonder why that is? because lyn and fly are so awesome that they won lately?
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moon relied on pure micro to win in situations in which most players wouldnt be favored, he made sloppy mistakes and got into bad situations only to micro out of them. Moon's style if employed by anyone else would be playing with fire.
Grubby doesnt have the speed moon does, but he has the tactics and is a cerebral player. I think he could do very well in sc2 and he showed signs of that with his play so early in his sc2 career.
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On February 12 2011 11:48 idonthinksobro wrote:
I doubt that he will be a Top Tier SC player. Many Wc3 "pros" tried and almost all of them failed. He will most likely be able to win some small online tournaments but i dont see him winning gsl/mlg or any other major tournament in the near future. yea cause 4 out of 5 tsl open qualifier champions are ex wc3 pros, playing against the best players trying to earn there spot at 35k prize money.....................
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On February 12 2011 12:38 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 12:28 Zechs wrote:On February 12 2011 12:10 rasers wrote:On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one. so u started following Wc3 when? 2007 2008ish? grubby was THE Orc after his first WCG win in 2004 together with Zacard he made Orc what it is. so yes he was the best orc. and with ur logic we never have a best player for 1 race. Flash is not the best T because he lost sometimes vs fantasy or MVP. i also wonder how he wasnt the king of wc3 with moon? they got him 2 or 3 times over 2 korea just to play 1!! bo5 against moon for like 10k$ or something. wonder why this never happened to Fly , Lyn and hahaha Lucifron.. There was a time when he was THE one. not in the last 2 3 years but yeah in the start of his career. on topic. his games were suprising good and i doubt we will find many people that play that good after 3 weeks. (playing some games in beta for fun or 2n2 with his GF u rlly think that means something?) I don't usually reply to fanboys, but... are you for real? You claim that he was "THE ONE" while admitting in the exact same post that Zacard helped him to make orc what it is. Grubby was an excellent player, definitely one of the best, but THE best? Nope, sorry. Moon has more accomplishments and beat Grubby 1on1 many, many times. The reason that Lyn never flew to Korea to play in your fictional $10k series (any idea of what that was called or who sponsored it? No? Oh right, that's becuase you just fucking invented it... o_O) is because a) Lyn lives in Korea already... d'uh, and b) as i said, you just made that BO5 up - it's pretty funny. i just talk about orcs not about Moon... Moon and grubby are pretty much 50/50. Grubby was THE orc who won all that shit. Zacard was the one who gave orc the Blademaster. i make this up? Superfight was the name of the "tournament" and lyn wasnt also the one who got the invite 2 play against him it was moon. Lyn was a fucking scrub until 2007 so how on earth can u rate him higher then grubby? who was there from 2004 until now? and always on top EVERY year he won atleast 1 major tournament. iam not hist fanboy but i get sick when people dont give such guys enough credit. if u would talk so much bullshit about sky moon or whoever i would also write it. not my fault u dont know Wc3 before 2007/2008 but tha tdoesnt mean i make things up. oh look what i found http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1229249when people start talking about elfs they start talking about moon. when they start talking about a human player they talk about sky. when they start talking about a orc player they talk about Grubby.(for ud there was not really THE ONE) and u wonder why that is? because lyn and fly are so awesome that they won lately?
Fly disappeared into obscurity, i'm not talking about him. He was my favourite player just because of his entertaining playstyle, but his peak was very brief. Lyn hasn't won anything lately because, hello... he's been playing SC2 for the past 9 months or so. Even so, the last 10 games he played against Grubby gives him 6 wins (http://www.sk-gaming.com/match/37454). Again, i'm not trying to downtalk Grubby, i just think your fanboy-ism is making you blind to his flaws. He was inarguably one of the best WC3 players of all time but i stand by the point that he is not the one and only, as you said.
As for your ludicrious statement about Lyn being a scrub... again, are you for real? By that logic, every footballer of the past 90 years is worse than the ones 100 years ago because they were scrubs before 1920? Wayne Rooney is worse than David Beckham because he has been playing for less time? What on earth are you blathering about?
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I opened this thread thinking it was going to be a satire...
I must say I am slightly disappointed. His play today certainly seemed amateurish. I wonder how many people challenged him to a game of SC2 and won.
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the war3 players who mattered are dominating their respective places.. I think EU has a fair share of dominance from the war3 players (kas/thorzain/naniwa/sjow/etc), I don't understand how anyone could make a post saying war3 players haven't really done anything.
The best players in war3 were a mix of europeans, koreans and chinese, the skill gap between koreans and euros definitely wasn't as big as what you saw in BW. If we analyze respective regions we haven't seen any war3 players doing well in GSL because.. well there weren't many good war3 players inducted into gsl in the first place. Check is the only one and Maka was barely a semi-pro player ( he was a night elf known as townhall) and they've done decently for mid-tier war3 pros (in the shadow of many great players). The good europeans have done quite a bit in sc2, Kas, SjoW, Naniwa, thorzain, nightend, naama, hasuobs, lucifron, etc. they were all semi-pro and mid tier war3 players and they are orders above the rest of the world (except code s GSL koreans ofc).
Now the NA server war3 players were good but there was a significant skill gap between the best NA player and the best EU/KR/CN player in war3. However KiWiKaKi/Cruncher/SeLeCT/Axslav/Strifecro etc. have had quite a lot of success in NA sc2, they didn't really do much of anything in the war3 scene except win a couple regional lans here and there, nothing major.
In conclusion, war3 players can definitely hang in with BW players, one cannot say they aren't successful in sc2 or anything, also the worst statement is "bw players are better than war3 players", if we bring in the A-teamers of BW today, we can definitely say that they are much better mechanically speaking and would probably dominate over the rest, but so far the real cream of the crop in terms of bw have stayed in bw and haven't transitioned over yet.
As for grubby's play today, I am thoroughly impressed, as a player who's played over 1k+ games of ladder and made it into mid-level masters, I definitely see the potential in his play, he's played like ~200 games and he held his own against a solid terran player and gave the rest of the group quite a fight. He obviously has a ton of holes in his game but he's inexperienced and has a fraction of the expeirence most of these players have in sc2. He's only 3 weeks in and he's a hybrid player so his priorities aren't focused on sc2.. give this guy some time, he'll eventually grow into a very formidable player for years to come i would predict. Just because he lost a lot of people will dismiss him saying that "he's nothing special" you have to look past the losses and really delve into his playstyle throughout the games
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can you seriously start reading and dont make things up?
when did i say something about lyn not winning anything lately?
iam not his fanboy i just give him the credit he deserves.
and again i never said he was the one and only wc3 player...
he was the only Orc player for quite some time who won tournaments even tho orc was known for being 2 weak.
and yes u can read again
Lyn was a scrub UNTIL 2007. while grubby won all this tournaments shit and while lyn got on the scene and got some awesome year (2007 or 2008 dont remember now^^ the other year was awesome year for moon) Grubby was still there and won tournaments and even major tournaments.
so again how can u rlly say that grubby is/was not THE orc.
its like Moon is THE elf.
also they played like 34879539845 maps so yeah.. ur 6 wins in the last 10 matches is not really that much...
now before u might answer this read it plz and dont come with things up i never said.
btw whats up with ur "u made it up thing" thought u acted clever and shit and was so confident about it.
but yeah call me fanboy just because i know wc3 before 2007/2008ish.
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can grubby still register for tl open? Seems like all the slots are reserved.
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Ok as a war3 player, i know that grubby was in fact ONE of the best orcs. ARGUABLY the best orc along with lyn. But regardless, grubby is a pretty slick dude with some sweet control who could contend against moon and lyn. So the guy being really good at sc2 doesnt seem to surprise me too much.
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check doesnt belong in code s imho...when u saw the GSTL finals, there are much better macro players than him. he always 2 base and thats it..boring too watch. matter of time till the wc3 players (as check and maka) will be in code b and the real skilled players in code s...hopefully
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On February 12 2011 13:00 rasers wrote:
can you seriously start reading and dont make things up?
when did i say something about lyn not winning anything lately?
iam not his fanboy i just give him the credit he deserves.
and again i never said he was the one and only wc3 player...
he was the only Orc player for quite some time who won tournaments even tho orc was known for being 2 weak.
and yes u can read again
Lyn was a scrub UNTIL 2007. while grubby won all this tournaments shit and while lyn got on the scene and got some awesome year (2007 or 2008 dont remember now^^ the other year was awesome year for moon) Grubby was still there and won tournaments and even major tournaments.
so again how can u rlly say that grubby is/was not THE orc.
its like Moon is THE elf.
also they played like 34879539845 maps so yeah.. ur 6 wins in the last 10 matches is not really that much...
now before u might answer this read it plz and dont come with things up i never said.
btw whats up with ur "u made it up thing" thought u acted clever and shit and was so confident about it.
but yeah call me fanboy just because i know wc3 before 2007/2008ish.
man you are a fan boy...and a huge one! a typical wc3 noob. pls go back to readmore.de and post your xxxx there. cheers
User was warned for this post
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Lyn is a better wc3 player than Grubby and Lyn has been playing sc2 since beta, whats your thoughts?
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On February 12 2011 11:13 ELA wrote:
I really want to see Grubby do well in SC2, he just seems like such a likeable guy in every way..
Exactly
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On February 12 2011 12:28 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 12:10 rasers wrote:On February 12 2011 11:44 Zechs wrote:On February 12 2011 11:36 holy_war wrote:On February 12 2011 11:30 Mafs wrote:
Grubby was one of the best WC3 player. He was the only orc to win tournaments even though orc was considered imba, but moon or tod wiped them all out. It will be nice to see 3 WC3 pros playing SC2. 1 for each race also. Moon needs to change his style. But protoss fits grubby very very well. Orc is similar in that very strong units but not too mobile. Also protoss I think has the most micro dependant army mid-late game. Storms, warp prisms, FF, blink, pheonix. So I think grubby will exceed in all of those aspects. Getting used to constantly making probes and pylons isnt hard. Only took me 3 months of 1-2 games a day and lots of theorycrafting. You forgot about Lyn (Orc) who was a beast for the last 2-3 years. Oh btw, Lyn is in Code S. There is quite a laundry list of players who were better than Grubby at various periods. I'd love to see Fly100% move to SC2, but his amazing micro doesn't really have much of a home in this game. His macro often let him down, even in WC3. Also, Lucifron was another top-level orc who beat Grubby numerous times - he posted some great results in the beta/early days of SC2 but succumbed to University in recent months. The point is, Grubby was not some kind of undisputed king of WC3 like some people seem to be insinuating. He wasn't even the best orc, because orc mirror is too random (i hate that word, but it's kinda true) to really pick one. so u started following Wc3 when? 2007 2008ish? grubby was THE Orc after his first WCG win in 2004 together with Zacard he made Orc what it is. so yes he was the best orc. and with ur logic we never have a best player for 1 race. Flash is not the best T because he lost sometimes vs fantasy or MVP. i also wonder how he wasnt the king of wc3 with moon? they got him 2 or 3 times over 2 korea just to play 1!! bo5 against moon for like 10k$ or something. wonder why this never happened to Fly , Lyn and hahaha Lucifron.. There was a time when he was THE one. not in the last 2 3 years but yeah in the start of his career. on topic. his games were suprising good and i doubt we will find many people that play that good after 3 weeks. (playing some games in beta for fun or 2n2 with his GF u rlly think that means something?) I don't usually reply to fanboys, but... are you for real? You claim that he was "THE ONE" while admitting in the exact same post that Zacard helped him to make orc what it is. Grubby was an excellent player, definitely one of the best, but THE best? Nope, sorry. Moon has more accomplishments and beat Grubby 1on1 many, many times. The reason that Lyn never flew to Korea to play in your fictional $10k series (any idea of what that was called or who sponsored it? No? Oh right, that's becuase you just fucking invented it... o_O) is because a) Lyn lives in Korea already... d'uh, and b) as i said, you just made that BO5 up - it's pretty funny.
I'm sorry but when you think about orc Grubby is "THE ONE". It is true that for long periods of time during his career he was not the absolutely best player that no one could beat. There were many periods when there were one or a few players that were actually better but there are many reasons why Grubby is "THE ONE" orc:
- when he began his success, he was the only orc besides Zacard that posted any results (and Grubby's results were quite good). I hope that you remember that orc was widely considered imba weak back then...
- he's been at the very top for a ridiculously long time, getting great results throughout his whole career
- he had a period when he was dominating completely, winning almost everything he played (must have been somewhere between 2005-2007. for like an year he was demolishing everybody. I believe at the end of his era of utter domination the moon vs grubby series were organized to see who was the better one because they had been winning everything they entered but had no chance to play against eachother for a long time due to the segregation of Korean and Foreigner players)
- besides his success at international events, he has been dominating Europe for almost his whole career
- he dominated wc3l for a looooong time (winning offline finals with only 3 players contributed to his legacy)
I have to agree though that in the last 2 or so years Grubby has not been the best orc. Lyn and Fly got better results. However, he was still up there and was still winning much. When people talk about orc, the first thing that comes to mind is Grubby, because he was simply the orc hero. (Just like Moon was "the one" night elf)
edit:
I remembered a lovely quote by Grubby:
"playing NE vs Orcs is like shooting handicapped ducks in a barrel."
And it felt like it when every other orc faced an elf back in the day, but Grubby actually managed to beat the best elfs on a regular basis.
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United States22883 Posts
I was surprised and I completely enjoyed all of Grubby's games. It's pretty clear he's got a long way to go, but he brought more of WC3 into SC2 than any of the other WC3 players and it did put him in advantageous positions (even though he couldn't capitalize.)
Also, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when he built 3 gateways with 3 probes.
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He probably WILL be good, as of now, he displays multiple mistakes in fundamental mechanics he needs to correct. He seems to have good unit control and decision making, but his macro is slacking terribly, floating 700 minerals at the start of the game is not a good thing, he seems to forget warp gate cycles, probes and pylons.
He needs to work a lot, but for having played for only a small amount of time, he's quite good, he needs to train basic starcraft, try not to jump a step ahead, since what seems to be the problem is fundamentals.
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On February 12 2011 13:12 ageai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 13:00 rasers wrote:
can you seriously start reading and dont make things up?
when did i say something about lyn not winning anything lately?
iam not his fanboy i just give him the credit he deserves.
and again i never said he was the one and only wc3 player...
he was the only Orc player for quite some time who won tournaments even tho orc was known for being 2 weak.
and yes u can read again
Lyn was a scrub UNTIL 2007. while grubby won all this tournaments shit and while lyn got on the scene and got some awesome year (2007 or 2008 dont remember now^^ the other year was awesome year for moon) Grubby was still there and won tournaments and even major tournaments.
so again how can u rlly say that grubby is/was not THE orc.
its like Moon is THE elf.
also they played like 34879539845 maps so yeah.. ur 6 wins in the last 10 matches is not really that much...
now before u might answer this read it plz and dont come with things up i never said.
btw whats up with ur "u made it up thing" thought u acted clever and shit and was so confident about it.
but yeah call me fanboy just because i know wc3 before 2007/2008ish. man you are a fan boy...and a huge one! a typical wc3 noob. pls go back to readmore.de and post your xxxx there. cheers
Almost every post you've made that involves a WC3 player has been nothing but bashing the game and those players. We get it, you're one of the people who hate the game.
On topic, I thought his games today were entertaining as hell. Sure, he'll probably never be the powerhouse he was in WC3, but he still carries massive weight in the eSports scene and it can be nothing but beneficial to it as long as he continues to train and improve.
Also props to him for allowing himself to be put against all challengers, class act.
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I think he will do fine in the future and with EG backing him up, even better.
GL and best of luck Grubby
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i think this post is misleading and that is why Grubby is getting all the hate
1. Grubby did not play impressively. To play impressively you need to show that you have the build orders, macro, and decision making capable to beat a top pro in a straight up game. ST_Bomber, IMSeeD, and other no-namers who showed up in the GSTL were impressive. Grubby did not show any of those qualities. Reckless counterattacks and ill-advised decisions are the play of BitByBitPrime, not of someone we can place our hopes to be a top sc2 player.
2. Grubby hasn't been playing for 3 weeks only. He may have been practicing seriously for 3 weeks, but he has been playing a lot longer than that. There are replays of him which prove he has been playing a lot longer.
3. It's way too early to judge Grubby now. It's way too early to say if he can or cannot adapt to sc2.
4. It's way too early to post about Grubby. He may be iconic in the wc3 scene, but if another player played like him we'd be calling him a noob. Complimenting every single failure by Grubby will only alienate sc2 fans from him, because he is not deserving of such exposure in sc2.
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I'm sure he's played for more than 3 weeks but perhaps he's only played seriously for that long. I'm glad he's improving quickly and I'm sure he will be one of the top players within the next 6 months.
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On February 12 2011 13:00 rasers wrote:
can you seriously start reading and dont make things up?
when did i say something about lyn not winning anything lately?
iam not his fanboy i just give him the credit he deserves.
and again i never said he was the one and only wc3 player...
he was the only Orc player for quite some time who won tournaments even tho orc was known for being 2 weak.
and yes u can read again
Lyn was a scrub UNTIL 2007. while grubby won all this tournaments shit and while lyn got on the scene and got some awesome year (2007 or 2008 dont remember now^^ the other year was awesome year for moon) Grubby was still there and won tournaments and even major tournaments.
so again how can u rlly say that grubby is/was not THE orc.
its like Moon is THE elf.
also they played like 34879539845 maps so yeah.. ur 6 wins in the last 10 matches is not really that much...
now before u might answer this read it plz and dont come with things up i never said.
btw whats up with ur "u made it up thing" thought u acted clever and shit and was so confident about it.
but yeah call me fanboy just because i know wc3 before 2007/2008ish.
- Lyn had played in wc3 proleagues & starleagues since 2004
- Lyn took 2nd place in MBC MWL2005, losing only to the real ONE aka Moon (hilariously Moon's team back then was also named ONE). yeah I bet no scrub can be korean 2nd best player
- I can always found a better orc in each period of Grubby's so-called dominations like DayFly (early MBC leagues), Zad, FarSeer (1st starwars) ,Lyn, WhO
- Sadly Korean qualifier was way too harsh so u didnt get to see much of these better orcs in WCG or ESWC
- You might not know these facts cuz U probably didnt follow the scene before 2007
On-topic: I may see Grubby get to the league of european tops in a short time but again, that 80 mins game doesnt amaze me since he has a turtle style since long, not dare attacking anything and try to take advantage of hit & run sneaky attacks
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On February 12 2011 14:23 PrideNeverDie wrote:
i think this post is misleading and that is why Grubby is getting all the hate
1. Grubby did not play impressively. To play impressively you need to show that you have the build orders, macro, and decision making capable to beat a top pro in a straight up game. ST_Bomber, IMSeeD, and other no-namers who showed up in the GSTL were impressive. Grubby did not show any of those qualities. Reckless counterattacks and ill-advised decisions are the play of BitByBitPrime, not of someone we can place our hopes to be a top sc2 player.
2. Grubby hasn't been playing for 3 weeks only. He may have been practicing seriously for 3 weeks, but he has been playing a lot longer than that. There are replays of him which prove he has been playing a lot longer.
3. It's way too early to judge Grubby now. It's way too early to say if he can or cannot adapt to sc2.
4. It's way too early to post about Grubby. He may be iconic in the wc3 scene, but if another player played like him we'd be calling him a noob. Complimenting every single failure by Grubby will only alienate sc2 fans from him, because he is not deserving of such exposure in sc2.
Beating Sarens in an 80 min game doesnt sound much like BBBprime. It isnt too early to post about grubby we want to discuss how he develops and he has earned his exposure..
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Ugh, how is there 5 pages about whether or not Grubby is going to do well in SC2?
The only players that will ever do well in competitive RTS environment, are the ones who can improve within the competitive environment through dedication and making the most of their particular natural aptitude. Grubby has achieved this in War3. War3 is not SC2. SC2 will have somewhat similar competitive environment, and Grubby will either do well or not based on whether or not he can stay dedicated and make the most of his particular natural aptitude. There is no argument of SC2 vs War3 vs BW worth having. We will see if he does well or not in time. There doesnt need to be 5 pages of this.
I personally hope that Grubby does well. He certainly has been a strong competitive player in the past. Whether or not he can repeat himself in SC2 has little to nothing to do with the speculation people are spouting in this thread. If anything, his success in War3 should earn him at least the amount of respect it takes to wait to see how he does before we start predicting his failure with such certainty. Im thrilled just to see him try, no matter what the results are.
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On February 12 2011 13:24 Jibba wrote:
Also, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when he built 3 gateways with 3 probes.
Are you serious? I must see this VOD.
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WC3 players generally seem to transition pretty well into SC2 and I can see Grubby doing the same. Obviously nothing's guaranteed, but many RTS games require relatively similar set of skills and the years of tournament experience Grubby has under his belt should definitely come in handy as well.
That said, my god I hope I don't come here sometime in April and see people saying "Grubby is so damn amazing for doing this well when he's only been playing seriously for exactly 17 days!!!@"
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Some people just got the talent and discipline together=)
Gl grubby! Wtb another idra from EG!
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People are really jumping the gun with grubby hate here, hes not very good obviously but he shows promise and history shows hes a successful RTS player, to compare him to Bitbybit is ridiculous. If you are willing to say something that dumb then you are just blindly hating him for no real reason.
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On February 12 2011 10:59 CoL_Fuehrer wrote:
LMFAO i could only wish Incontrol will see this
yes lol
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Well said, I agree.
I don't see why people expected him to go far in this tournament with barely a month of practice and still practicing in Warcraft 3 parallel.
Personally, I am very impressed of him putting such a great fight out against two very top and experienced players.
I thought Nony and Sarens would just stomp all over him, if Grubby gives this game one or two months of full time practice, he might already do magic.
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On February 12 2011 11:12 SladeR wrote:
Grubby was playing in beta, and a little on release. Maybe started playing competitively 3 weeks ago. Or started putting more time and effort into the game at the time of 3 weeks ago. But he has played a good amount previously.
Which equates to literally nothing when you're up against pros who's been playing 10+ hours a day since beta.
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Yeah i was very impressed by grubbys play as well. I like his unit movement and he seems to have very good map awareness. Also, that probe surround in game 3 vs sarens.. fuck yeah,
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Canada11350 Posts
I understand there's a lot of WC3 hate, but Grubby is one guy I'd really like to see well. I never followed the WC3, but there was some interview on WC3 player's reactions to SC2 and Grubby's response totally won over. He's such a likeable guy, the SC community would be better off embracing him then all the hate.
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Grubby shows he has the dedication to become a very good player. He will stop doing stupid attacks and making bad calls when he gains more experience. As of now, as many have said he is very promising and i can't wait to see my favorite War3 player start winning!(i usually don't think so much of war3 players since i'm a bw fanboy but grubby's personality makes me want to see him succeed ^^).
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From what I can see, he needs to focus on his macro first. He had 3 bases with a ton of probes and he did not construct any gateways. And even before that, he stopped macroing after he expanded to his natural. These are in my opinion big mistakes.
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is he still half playing this half playin wc3? if so, that's some pretty fuckin impressive progress
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On February 12 2011 11:05 StarStruck wrote:
It's not like he doesn't have the practice partners to succeed and yeah, he's been playing a lot longer than 3 weeks. He's been putting more time and effort into the game. That is for sure. He still has a lot of hurdles to overcome like Mad Frog.
Around Christmas he had < 100 ladder games + some 2v2 with Cassandra. That's close to nothing over six months, especially if you're not practicing just playing around.
edit: also, it's time to put the BW vs WC3 discussion to rest, it's quite clear there's no real difference what background you came from. However those who have gone through the Korean BW practice regime are ahead, not because they played BW but because of years of practice in pro-houses.
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On February 12 2011 18:47 Bleak wrote:
From what I can see, he needs to focus on his macro first. He had 3 bases with a ton of probes and he did not construct any gateways. And even before that, he stopped macroing after he expanded to his natural. These are in my opinion big mistakes.
Yea but he is 3 weeks into the game and already he's doing better then most, even if he was pro war 3 player his macro was impressive for his game time. If he keeps practicing.. Code A in a couple seasons possibly?
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A lot of the best SC2 players outside of Korean are ex-WC3'ers and Grubby is and was better than all of them so he should be able to make his mark on the foreign SC2 scene with enough practice.
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Regardless of the 3wks practice or still-playing-wc3, the LT game was very boring. Two 200 armies just watching each other for 30mins.
As of right now, grubby's not up to par. He's just a face in the crowd for SC2.
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The move surround of a marine with probes was so funny. Like closing the eye to the ex-wc3 fans. Grubby has his own uncopable style relying on control. If this can transfer into sc2 we are up for some very entertaining games from him )).
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Maybe new people, from sc2 or wc3 should go watch fpvods of bisu, flash, jaedong and actually see what micro and macro are about.
People would argue far less.
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He's going to get left behind and figured out and beaten badly if he doesn't start to commit soon.
Players in the GSL are making leaps and bounds in improvement everytime you see them. Squirtle for example, last season he was pretty mediocre or worse. Then come around the GSTL and he takes games from the best player in the world MVP convincingly and without cheese/all-ins. Grubby is plain going to be left behind if he doesn't make up his mind soon. This isn't the sort of game where you can just casually commit and try to base it off another RTS game experiance. It may help but at the level of play where you're trying to make a living off it constant practice is a requirement and not a suggestion.
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i gotta say Grubby was looking hot sometimes, but i wanted to headbutt my monitor when he after beautifully microing and multitasking and counterattacking and being patient just suicided his entire army goign down the ramp as stacked as possible into liek 6 sieged up tanks
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On February 12 2011 10:57 ChickenLips wrote:
who apparently is pretty good at WC3
i lol'd pretty hard
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On February 12 2011 13:24 Jibba wrote:
I was surprised and I completely enjoyed all of Grubby's games. It's pretty clear he's got a long way to go, but he brought more of WC3 into SC2 than any of the other WC3 players and it did put him in advantageous positions (even though he couldn't capitalize.)
Also, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when he built 3 gateways with 3 probes.
HuK does the exact same thing (build 4 pylons with 4 probes) when he is in a back-and-forth game I should really stop watching so much sc2 T_T
I'm actually impressed by how few trolls are scurrying about this thread, but when they do they're hilarious:
On February 12 2011 14:23 PrideNeverDie wrote:Reckless counterattacks and ill-advised decisions are the play of BitByBitPrime, not of someone we can place our hopes to be a top sc2 player.
bwahahahahaha
Complimenting every single failure by Grubby will only alienate sc2 fans from him, because he is not deserving of such exposure in sc2.
I think TLO is overrated (and he thinks so himself), but I'm not going around telling people that his results so far are bad and they shouldn't place their hopes in him. That's just a piss poor attitude and noone wants to hear that shit.
You obviously have a very shallow understanding of RTS if you value solid build orders by such a new player that has the muscle memory of YEARS of training a completely different game. I've outlined pretty clearly why I was impressed by certain factors of his play, but you just seem interested in re-wording my statements in a way that makes him look bad, lacking the ability to read and comprehend basic logic arguments.
Who are you to say who deserves exposure and who doesn't?
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Enjoyed grubby's games, he played well and... different. Will be awesome to see what happens when he dedicates 2 months to playing solely sc2.
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Grubby will dominate sc2 in europe as he did with wc3....... its just a matter of time.
He did much better than i expected for 3weeks of practice, cant wait too see more of him
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There is no reason whatsoever why someone who is a WC3 pro cannot become extremely good at SC2.
Having played my share of WC3 and now graduating to SC2, I have really begun to dislike WC3. The creeping, the randomness, the heroes etc. etc. But there are definitely skills WC3 pros will have picked up which they would not have done exclusively playing BW which will make them bring something different to the table. We should embrace any RTS pro gamer from whatever their background because they will help make SC2 more diverse.
And for my two cents, I think Grubby has great potential. He (or anyone who has a great deal of raw talent) just has to invest ten thousand hours or so into SC2 and he will flourish.
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Whatever Grubby decides to do, ill support him.
Grubster HWAITINGGGG
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"Grubby is impressive" He is not.
His inability to attack is impressive
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He's a nice guy and deserves his shot.
Give him time, no one can beat many pro's with only a few weeks/months serious play.
I think he will do OK.
In a year of high level play a lot can happen, he will be able to practice with his team and maybe, just maybe take down the odd tourney.
I look forwards to seeing him play a lot more SC2 and wish the guy well.
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People overall should stop hyping players. Grubby at the moment is not what he was in WC3, period.
There is nothing else to add, everything is open, but I don't think he will be dominant because it's just not possible at the moment (SjoW crushing so many tournament and then baam disappearing, that's just how the game is right now).
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On February 12 2011 20:59 WhiteDog wrote:
People overall should stop hyping players. Grubby at the moment is not what he was in WC3, period.
There is nothing else to add, everything is open, but I don't think he will be dominant because it's just not possible at the moment (SjoW crushing so many tournament and then baam disappearing, that's just how the game is right now).
Sjow going out early in one tournament means that he has disappeared?
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I don't buy it that he's been playing for 3 weeks. More like 2 months.
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He might be good later on, and considering he's only played for 3 weeks i guess he's doing ok.
However, his play was really bad. Some parts of his play was good, but other parts were really terrible.
But i dont think he will actually become a pro at sc2.
GL to him though
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The only thing that this shows is how easy game sc2 is.
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I don't buy it that he's been playing for 3 weeks. More like 2 months.
Yeah i remember SirScoots saying that Grubby played SC2 on his pc like a few months ago. I think Grubby didn't play good at all. But obviously that expectable considering he played against people like Tyler ... btw, Tyler's build in game 1 was weird ass! :D
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On February 12 2011 21:10 mdb wrote:
The only thing that this shows is how easy game sc2 is.
Trolling for a 
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Anyone who followed WC3 a little bit could have told you he is very talented/hardworking. It's not that surprising.
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On February 12 2011 21:17 RoyalCheese wrote:Yeah i remember SirScoots saying that Grubby played SC2 on his pc like like a few months ago. I think Grubby didn't play good at all. But obviously that expectable considering he played against people like Tyler ... btw, Tyler's build in game 1 was weird ass! :D
Tells us how much you know about the game...
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Grubby wasnt bad but he certainly played more than 3 weeks. Thats for sure. He played since beta, even tho it wasnt fulltime.
But I will definatly be looking forward to his games in the future.
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It really doesnt matter if he played for 3 weeks or 3 months. Even 3 months isnt enought to play a major LAN tournament vs people like Ret(One of the best zergs out there in EU atm) or a BW veteran.
All the haters makes it sound as if you can just give someone a SC2 copy, make them play for a couple of weeks/months and then ure ready to win tournaments. Thats bullshit.
Yes, Grubby is/was a WC3 LEGEND, he as won pretty much everything that can be won more than once, and he has with this a solid RTS backround. He knows how to micro and the general idea behind RTS. But of course he isnt gonna switch over to a much fster paced game with totally diff mechanics and go and win the first tournament he plays.
And it's not about "brown nosing" Grubby, but he is an overall nice guy who is hardworking and makes for fun games(in Wc3, and hopefully in Sc2). It's just like with Jinro and TLO, they are likeable, I dont care if TLO never wins an Sc2 game again or if Jinro stops playing. I will support them regardless due to the fact that it's not just about the plays, its about the player.
I really hope Grubby will make a successful switch over to Sc2 and show peoplejust how good and smart of a player he is.
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Watching Grubby play SC2 has the same chilling feeling of watching your childhood sports heroes play in their old age.
It's the same name but it's not the same player.
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On February 12 2011 11:55 SladeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 11:52 LuckyFool wrote:On February 12 2011 11:49 starcraft911 wrote:
3 weeks ago my ass. I haven't played in 2 months and he was playing before i quit. I know he was practicing at least some before he played in tsl quali on jan 22nd. so the 3-4 week argument is a slight stretch, maybe 3-4 weeks of hardcore ? dunno. Yes I would say this is the case. He played before in beta, he played on release, I just think since the beginning of release beta he has not been focusing on starcraft as perhaps he did not get the results he was expecting? could make more money with war3? 3 weeks would be the time i'd assume he started taking sc2 more seriously. Saying he's been playing only 3 weeks is ridiculous. I want to see him quit war3 and dedicate himself to starcraft, but he's probably too attached to WC3 from an economical standpoint. I feel if he does not dedicate himself to starcraft he will not be on the same level that some of the other war 3 players are at (Lyn). Looking at his games today he has a long way to go.
Do you have anything to back your assumptions up?
For all you know he only played 50 games during beta to check the game out.
The state of the game has changed quite a bit since the beta anyway so i doubt it was all that useful.
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its not very difficult to learn Protoss in a few weeks. Just watch a lot of replays, and play with some top tier players and u basically have it down.. especially coming from an RTS background. I mean I NEVER played the beta, yet I made it to diamond the first day sc2 was released. p = ezpz IMO
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grubby also impressed me, even on jungle basin he played very well although he screwed it up when he moved down the ramp into all the tanks.. give this guy some months of full dedication to sc2 and he's gonna be a top notch player! but as long as he still plays wc3, i don't think that he can compete with the best players in the foreigner scene.
but i still enjoy his games, his micro management is just impressive. (see the quick and sudden surround of the marine on jungle basin, with his probes sliding down to his natural - great reaction)
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I followed him for years throughout his WC3 carreer. As we're both from the Netherlands and both play Orc I was a big fan.
Very happy to see he's playing SC2, I just wish he'd be playing it fulltime instead of in his spare time after WC3 or w/e
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I bet Grubby had way more practice experience then you thought. It's only been made public that he recently has begun to play sc2 competetiveley. Ofc also wc3 players get boring of this game at a point in time and want to try out the new blizz games. For that reason I bet he had the game for quite a long time before the tournaments.
Still he was a very good wc3 player back then (I remember he was probably the best when he was on the 4 Kings team)
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Grubby was one of the greatest wc3 players ive ever seen.
But his SC2 yesterday@ Assembly was just terribad...
Really guys stop hyping him, he made worse decisions then people 3 days into the beta.
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well his macro was not up to par but that's no wonder with only 3 weeks of playing under his belt, however his unit and army movements were great and he was forcing positioning with units that you don't really see all that often including the pro level. Hope his teammates at EG help him learn how to macro since he's surrounded by gosucoaching coaches besides them being just great players ofc. Can't wait to follow him in the future if he devotes him self to sc2.
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I think a lot people here misread playing for only 3 weeks, he's been playing _publicly_ for 3 weeks as in, playing tournaments, online cups and whatsoever, now don't get me wrong, im 99,9% sure grubby is gonna be quite amazing at sc II in the long run if he goes for it :D, its grubby, anything else would surprise me, but realise that he did play quite some SC II before, even though Wc3 was his main focus and he didnt play any tournaments, he did play, the 3 weeks things isnt as 3 weeks as it sound, its not like he unwrapped the game 3 weeks ago and installed it :D.
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What I saw in his games were remarkable decisions at times, even if many people disagree and only saw the flaws in his game, yes I saw them too, but I wanna point out a few things that made a lot of sense, and trying to understand the mistakes [Note: This is pure speculation and personal view on what it looked like for me]
In game 1, the decision going Carriers instead of trying to stomp the front was good, he just saw PF'ses and marauders camping, and there was no good angle to attack.
He was making good moves with the HT's storming the frontlines and the back.
Did u guys miss how he was saccing his probes, but then pulled his probes back to include a HT to feedback FOUR medivacs?
He was testing the front on both sides, trying to get good storms off on the vikings, trying to break the expo of Sarens.
even if he could win at the at the 30min mark with the 6 carriers and a mothership!
But it looked like he was scared for the 8-10~ vikings, even tho carriers own vikings hard.
Overall, very good game by both of them.
in Game 2,
When he was 4gating, when he tested the front and see that he could not break that, I like how he fell back to expand, to bad it was scouted. And I was no fan on expanding again to the top.
I can't remember much about that game, but he made to many immortals?, anyway I don't wanna get to much into that game.
in Game 3 I saw some very good decisions again. For once the marine block, that is not as easy as it looks like.
He tried to split his workers up with the Stop -> F1 click > F1 click. Smart, but ineffective when the hellions are already there as you could see (I'm more a fan of the box 3, click, box 3, click method)
The attack in the back was smart, planned out for sure, but smart.
When Sarens kinda went allin with his counter attack, Grubby lost a few units, when he could kill at least 1 tank there, and lost the same amount of units.
When he let his expo die there, there was no excuse for it as well, big blunder.
But on the counter attack with the zealots and stalkers, Loved it! good plan!
But then, then final attack by grubby, I did not see if he saw where the tanks were, or what went on in his mind, but for me it looked like he TRIED to avoid the tanks with the collosi, big mistake in my eyes, he could snipe the tanks from A) His expo edge or B) just left of his ramp on the high ground (both with nothing hitting them, apart from few viking hits after 1 or 2 tanks would have been sniped, but then stalkers could have hit them)
But he did the worst possible angle, but I liked the part he TRIED to make a good angle.
This is from my perspective, and just from seeing it once, but overall I saw good things and hope he learns from this, and hope to see more from him in the future.
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On February 12 2011 11:45 LuckyFool wrote:
I don't really understand everyones concern about grubby being impressive at sc2 right away... It's almost as if this thread is trying to justifying his skill or something which I find odd.
He was unarguably the best war3 player in history? (Sorry didn't follow war3 closely but I know he won 3 wcg grand finals?) the guys legacy is already immense, why would him struggling at a new game that he's hardly played for a month make any difference to his legacy...
Give it time, I'm sure if he dedicates himself he can be a top sc2 player. Right now he's literally been playing for a month, I don't really understand all of this discussion/debate, why?
I know he played in a TL Open a few weeks ago and lost in the first round to theognis... O_o
Good post, I have to say.
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Also everyone keep in mind.. the two most successful BW players of all time who are currently playing SC2.. Nada and Boxer... havent really been that impressive yet either. I can see multiple mistakes in their games too, stuff that if Moon or Grubby did in a game the BW crowd would be "OMG THEY SUCK"... People were expecting Nada to clean up everyone because of his talent, but that clearly didnt happen. Boxer got to a Ro4? but other than that, hasnt looked as solid as the other GSL top-8 people.
SC2 is a young mans game.. newer progamers like MVP and Sangho are the future for SC2 right now.
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On February 12 2011 22:18 Skyze wrote:
Also everyone keep in mind.. the two most successful BW players of all time who are currently playing SC2.. Nada and Boxer... havent really been that impressive yet either. I can see multiple mistakes in their games too, stuff that if Moon or Grubby did in a game the BW crowd would be "OMG THEY SUCK"... People were expecting Nada to clean up everyone because of his talent, but that clearly didnt happen. Boxer got to a Ro4? but other than that, hasnt looked as solid as the other GSL top-8 people.
SC2 is a young mans game.. newer progamers like MVP and Sangho are the future for SC2 right now.
They've been quite a bit more impressive than Moon for example though.
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On February 12 2011 22:22 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 22:18 Skyze wrote:
Also everyone keep in mind.. the two most successful BW players of all time who are currently playing SC2.. Nada and Boxer... havent really been that impressive yet either. I can see multiple mistakes in their games too, stuff that if Moon or Grubby did in a game the BW crowd would be "OMG THEY SUCK"... People were expecting Nada to clean up everyone because of his talent, but that clearly didnt happen. Boxer got to a Ro4? but other than that, hasnt looked as solid as the other GSL top-8 people.
SC2 is a young mans game.. newer progamers like MVP and Sangho are the future for SC2 right now. They've been quite a bit more impressive than Moon for example though.
Maybe so but they are the KINGS of esports, like when you think of the most popular guy in ALL of esports, you think Boxer.. when you think of the most consistent in ALL of esports, Nada..
By those standards, they are not living up to their expectations. And remember, this is Starcraft 2, not Warcraft 4.
And honestly, I think Lyn would beat either one of them right now. Moon is still juggling both games, and isnt 100% focused on SC outside of the few days before GSL matches.
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On February 12 2011 21:36 IntoTheBush wrote:
its not very difficult to learn Protoss in a few weeks. Just watch a lot of replays, and play with some top tier players and u basically have it down.. especially coming from an RTS background. I mean I NEVER played the beta, yet I made it to diamond the first day sc2 was released. p = ezpz IMO
Look who talks Guess you're a zerg player. Terran is even more easier in my opinion. Since it lacks of balance in ZvT, T gets an advantage and you do really a lot of skill when it comes to 1a your bio ball and when a protoss goes for the storms, most of the T's are just dead and saying its imba, even though they can't micro at all besides of going 1a, just can't. I do manage to beat like 3000-3200 master players with my T, compared with that, what I haven't even played more than 100games with a terran, so please.
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On February 12 2011 22:25 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 22:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 12 2011 22:18 Skyze wrote:
Also everyone keep in mind.. the two most successful BW players of all time who are currently playing SC2.. Nada and Boxer... havent really been that impressive yet either. I can see multiple mistakes in their games too, stuff that if Moon or Grubby did in a game the BW crowd would be "OMG THEY SUCK"... People were expecting Nada to clean up everyone because of his talent, but that clearly didnt happen. Boxer got to a Ro4? but other than that, hasnt looked as solid as the other GSL top-8 people.
SC2 is a young mans game.. newer progamers like MVP and Sangho are the future for SC2 right now. They've been quite a bit more impressive than Moon for example though. Maybe so but they are the KINGS of esports, like when you think of the most popular guy in ALL of esports, you think Boxer.. when you think of the most consistent in ALL of esports, Nada.. By those standards, they are not living up to their expectations. And remember, this is Starcraft 2, not Warcraft 4. And honestly, I think Lyn would beat either one of them right now. Moon is still juggling both games, and isnt 100% focused on SC outside of the few days before GSL matches.
Everyone agrees that time has ran past them. They are legends, not current champions.
Really? Lyn? I have to say I don't share that opinion. I thought Moon said he practises for the game with tournaments at that moment. What WC3 tournaments has he played recently? This is actually what Nada does too, he said he doesn't practise much unless there's a tournament.
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I am really impressive about his unit mixes,controls and some really good creative ideas.
But for sure he is not even a really good Master leagues player because his lack of macro is quite huge at the moment. If he is able to clear the problem like some other top players
( Demuslim,Hasuobs - i was rlly impressed about his PvT on Shakuras vs Sarens)
I really looking forward to his play in some months.
FaZi
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It seemed like grubby lacked a strong game sense of when his army was stronger than his opponent's how big his opponent's army was at a given point and a few other things (I think he slipped on his macro a few times, there's the whole multiple probes building at once thing). I didn't see any problems that can't be fixed by a bit more practice though, which is encouraging. He essentially has the hard parts down, he just needs to get more comfortable in the game.
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I was really impressed by how well Grubby played considering how little time he's spent with the game, and he should definitely be proud of how he played. I don't doubt he'll be crazy good once he starts practicing full time.
Grubby fighting!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.fragster.de/de/esport/starcraft-2/artikel/11/01/Bilder/format/grubby-auf-den-ngl-finals-550x140.png)
![[image loading]](http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lghbzjlsNM1qgzq96o1_500.jpg)
