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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL.
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On February 01 2011 03:20 ptbl wrote:
EG and its player understand how it’s important to have a strong presence in the GSL.
If this was intentional, I lol'd.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:[quote] Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it.
In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money?
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On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL.
i think they both made it out of groups and played each other in the first round of the tournament, but even so they didnt dominate like a lot of people assume they would
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On February 01 2011 06:25 HKarmY wrote:
Whitera is considered a legend. I am willing to bet he can take on any korean and man handle him like he does with his current compatition. He has made more money in the past 2 weeks while staying at home with friends and family than even the winner of Code A and 98% of Code S. Granted it is true if you want the fame go to GSL and prove you are a badass. If you want the richs play more tournaments. And Korea only has one. So it really comes down to the players themselves. Do they want to make a living or be remembered
You do realize that white-ra is the nestea of the non Koreans, the only other with similar prize money to him is Sjow. Comparing the best of the non Koreans with all of code S and A does not seems fair. Most non Koreans earn a lot less than he.
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On February 01 2011 07:04 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL. i think they both made it out of groups and played each other in the first round of the tournament, but even so they didnt dominate like a lot of people assume they would
Considering one of them didn`t make it far because the other eliminated him (Top knocked out Inca), and Top placing 3rd shows koreans are pretty damn good. Those 2 aren`t even the top players in korea.
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On February 01 2011 07:12 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:04 FrankWalls wrote:On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL. i think they both made it out of groups and played each other in the first round of the tournament, but even so they didnt dominate like a lot of people assume they would Considering one of them didn`t make it far because the other eliminated him (Top knocked out Inca), and Top placing 3rd shows koreans are pretty damn good. Those 2 aren`t even the top players in korea.
The only reason Inca and Top went to dream hack was because they couldn't get into the gsl. Don't forget ogsJ (who is definitely not one of ogs top players) got 3rd in fxo open and ogsSTC (who is in the army and lack practice) became champion poising like only 2 set.
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Root gaming > VTgaming imo, saying it all comes down to Korea is silly, winning an MLG is just as important
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You have to think about the geographical differences between Korea, and NA+EU.
They can have team houses that work in Korea because everything is based in a single city, in a relatively small country.
There isn't exactly a "Central spot" for non-korean teams to set up a base per say. No matter where you decide to put it, your still going to have to fly people all over the world to take part in the tourneys.
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On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence.
If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal.
I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps.
I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money?
Ahhh, I see what you did there  . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors.
If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series.
Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams.
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Easier said than done. It costs a lot of money for a team to send a player over to Korea and pay for his expenses. Your posts makes it seem like it's possible for every progamer/team to do, but they aren't because they're ducking the competition. It's not that simple. I'm pretty sure most progamers would love the chance to compete and train in Korea, but financially it isn't possible at the moment.
Teams need to gradually gain exposure through smaller tournaments (smaller than GSL) to get sponsors. That's how it works.
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Its really just a matter of preference. We'd love to see more foreigners in Seoul Korea and in the GSL, but ultimately it takes time and money to try to climb up the top. There are obstacles in the way and some people just do not want to go through just for the trouble of competing with the best.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 Backpack wrote:I think White-Ra put it nicely in his recent interview after winning the TSL qualifier. Show nested quote +GSL is just one tournament, if you put your time and money to go there for one tournament, yes GSL is very good but you lost too much time and investment. You can't play EU online leagues, Black Dragon, and many others. Also I make commitment to all these leagues and I can't just turn my back and refuse. There are many tournament in USA and Europe too, like MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, Assembly, and England too. If you live in Korea you just play one. GSL is only big because of the money. If it were anywhere other than Korea, it would be much more popular. Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l Only one person wins first place though. More tournaments = more chances to win. One GSL = Putting all your eggs into one basket.
Yea agreed, this may be the most "prestigious" tournament to win but its not smart for foreigners to forgo the chance to be competing in all the other tournaments going on in the world. Look at how much time all the players spent in Code A and the most any of them made was a lil more than 1000 dollars and not even a guaranteed spot in Code S. As much as I want to see more foreigners in GSL, I understand that its not practical for all of them to go and compete in Korea
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On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l
except that the average income is only about $30grand annually in America.
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On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. lol... Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on? On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money. For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it. Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
This is pretty much how I feel about this topic.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:
[quote]
I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams.
Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea.
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while you bring up some valid points about how going to the GSL and stomping face is a sure way to attain status of being more than just a "good player" I cant help but feel that talking in absolutes is never a good thing. Also funny how you say that teams need to go to the GSL. No they dont. In the end they need to make ends meet, going to the GSL is not a sure way to get it done.
You should get your feet on the ground(cos it seems like you arent, and if you are then I apologise for this whole sentence) and start thinking about how it works in the real world and realise that there is almost more money to be made outside of korea right now than what you would get back in return from going there. Winning the GSL is risky and almost not worth it considering just how much of a risk it is. I'd say that if you are a big team you dont really need to go to Korea since you've already made a name for yourself and also that if you're a big team then there are others to think about than just the players.
Plenty of players have made a name for themselves in the sc2 community and are considered among the best even though they havent butted heads with others in the GSL. White-ra being the most outstanding example of that right now. I also find it funny how you say that teams with money need to send their players to korea as if you actually knew what goes on inside those teams. It's almost saying that despite a negative return on investment it's still worth it, cos its what they need. risk and reward, it's how it works and right now the risk is outweighing the reward for most teams.
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In my eyes Korean pros take SC2 as job first then pleasure/hobby. While western pros (excl. HuK, Jinro, IdrA) take SC2 as pure pleasure/hobby and are pure bounty hunters in tournaments. Those 2 can not compare in the long run. Now that the game is relative new, foreigners do have a chance competing against Korean pros BUT... The gap will spread like a ************ if foreigner pros don't take the game as "serious" as Koreans do.
If you take SC2 serious as a pro gamer, you will eventually be in Korea competing (or trying to) in GSL.
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Also if you think IEM is equally prestigious to GSL you need to rewatch GSL
the player quality is not even close. Most IEM players wouldn't even make it into Code A.
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For sc2 Korea has the most competitive and highest-skilled scene, not because koreans are "better" or anything. It's because Korea has Sc1. Over time when all the best players are from all over the world, Korea will be less important, but as of now, the GSL offers not only the most money for the winner but also by far the most prestige. People yawn when koreans do well in European tournaments. Jinro hitting Ro4 had pretty much every nonkorean who cares about sc2 shitting their brains with excitement. I only bring up Jinro because he got farther than idra, and nobody really hates Jinro. I mean come on. Sweden has all the hot wimmenz.
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EPT
