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If professional Starcraft 2 players want to be considered one of the best in the game, then it’s important that they go to Korea and compete in the GSL. Starcraft pros should want to go to Korea to compete and test their skills with the best in the world. Without experiencing and participating in the GSL, the pros will just be good, but never the crème of the top.
Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, and the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name. Sure Jinro won MLG Dallas, which brought him recognition. However, his accomplishments in the GSL bolted him to elite and revered status. It made him an icon in the Starcraft 2 world and arguably in e-sports.
Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL.
Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul.
Some teams have the foresight and vision to send their players to the best tournament in the world. It shows that they understand what it takes to be the preeminent teams in the world. I would like to give shoutout to these particular teams who have sent players to the GSL.
Team Liquid- They have sent 5 players (TLO, Huk, Jinro, Ret, and Haypro) to compete in the GSL. Moreover, they have partnered with oGs to have a team house. Is it coincidence that Team Liquid is revered and considered the best team in the world?
EG- They have Idra and have stated that they plan to have a team house in Korea sometime around February. EG and its player understand how it’s important to have a strong presence in the GSL.
VTGaming- Not only do they have Torch, but they also sent their manager and VTSpades to live and compete in the GSL.
FXOpen- The team has sent Moonglade to live in the foreigner and compete in the GSL. They have stated that more are on the way in the future.
The other Starcraft 2 teams need to step up. They need to be willing to provide the support and opportunity to their players to compete in the GSL. The teams need to be in it for the long-haul. If the teams aren’t competing in the GSL, you’ll just be considered good, but never great.
There are some teams (the big ones that can afford to spend money) that seem to have no interest in sending their players to the GSL and compete. It is a shame and a travesty. I urge the players to lobby their managers and team owners to send them to Korea and compete. If the teams do not support you, I suggest you switch teams that are more willing to be great and not just good.
If you have the desire to be one of the best, move to Korea and compete for the GSL.
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A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea.
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It's mainly because of the high prize pool GSL offered.
If a regular tourney series in Europe/America offered 85000$ while there wasn't anything comparable in Korea for SC2 people would aim to play there. It's all about the money.
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as GSL is probably the most advertised of any sc2 tournys, the best of the best go because of the huge prize pool. Wouldn't even be a code A if the prize was like 200$. But yea, if teams want to really get their name out there and win some money in front of thousands of e-viewers, Seoul Korea is the place to be.
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I think your counting chicks before they hatch. Just because Koreans dominated Sc1 doesn't mean they will dominate Sc2. Using Wc3 as an example Grubby was considered the best in europe and Moon was considered the best in korea and even tho for much of 2004-2007 they didn't compete in eachothers leagues they were both still considered "the best". That aside, there is still a very huge room for improvement as far as sponsorships and financing so far as NA esports is concerned. But it definately as improved by a huge amount with several NA pro teams and MLG.
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Team Liquid is the best team in the world..? They're good but.. I wouldn't say best in the world..
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On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea.
gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l
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I think White-Ra put it nicely in his recent interview after winning the TSL qualifier.
GSL is just one tournament, if you put your time and money to go there for one tournament, yes GSL is very good but you lost too much time and investment. You can't play EU online leagues, Black Dragon, and many others. Also I make commitment to all these leagues and I can't just turn my back and refuse. There are many tournament in USA and Europe too, like MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, Assembly, and England too. If you live in Korea you just play one.
GSL is only big because of the money. If it were anywhere other than Korea, it would be much more popular.
On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l
Only one person wins first place though. More tournaments = more chances to win. One GSL = Putting all your eggs into one basket.
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I wonder if there will be Jaedong vs. Flash type rivalry in SC2 anytime soon. It certainly would bring much more interest to the scene.
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honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. This could be because the GSL casts every single game whereas, MLG selects a few to cast. I'm just not sure if I'd count GSL as THE sc2 tourney just yet. Yes the prize money is there, but it's too early to say if the skill there is dominant over every other tourney.
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I don't think it was ever really argued that GSL has the best players, but your reasoning behind it seems so generic. You can't say that the best foreigners NEED to go to Korea for by not doing so, they are only hurting themselves because its not true.
Sjow could probably do great in the GSL, but it would take 2 months just to have the CHANCE to move up to code S, and another month and a half to see any sort of payout. Optimistically he could get top 8 in code S which would net maybe 5k USD. That amount in the time taken is quite minuscule in the grand scheme when we're seeing how much players like him and Whitera have been able to make playing in foreigner tournaments.
Another example is Huk, who has now been in Korea for 3 months or so and not netted anything due to the inability to play in foreign tournaments. If he had been able to do so he'd have made a lot more, but now he's finally getting his chance to play in Code A and we'll hope the best out of him.
Don't shit on the foreigners and foreign teams for not sending their players over. There is a gain to doing so but in the end the risk reward actually balances out to the point where keeping foreigners in Europe or NA will be more beneficial.
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It's very true but also a big problem.
It's holding Esports back.
Not only do you have to excel in SC2, you also have to leave everything behind and go live in a foreign country if you want to be the best.
It's funny, since 1 of the great things about Esports is that it allows you to play from your home vs anyone everywhere.
Blizzard already ruined that aspect by not allowing you to play on other servers, but the fact that so many great players cannot compete in the biggest league, because they want to live with their friends and family, is not good.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money.
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I think top teams like Dignitas and Empire should work to see if they can create a true progamer atmosphere outside of Korea. That seems to be what's missing and what keeps the EU and NA scenes from being as refined and skilled as the Korean one. I think that certainly the talent is there.
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iem finals will have a very high prize pool. Probably around 30k Euro for the first place.
If you play for the money Korea is probably not the best choice with all those online tournaments and leagues.
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Uh heres for most of the good foriengers
Korea
.0001% chance to win 50k every month
EU/NA/SEA
50% chance to win a few thousand each month
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It's more than money for a lot of the players. It's an experience you can't really put a price on while playing a game you love for the chance to win money for all your hard work.
I'd never do it, but if I had the chance I wouldn't pass it up.
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On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money.
If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL.
Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar.
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I consider MVP to be the best player on the planet currently and GSL to be the best measure of the strongest players.
However I believe we will eventually have international events like WCG where the best foreign players can prove themselves against the top GSL players.
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If teams do care about money than they wouldn't really wanna go to gsl. Now you have to make top 8 of code A JUST to have a chance of making it to code S, where you start making money. But thats a long and difficult task. Look how long it took jinro. Torch qualified once and he's been there from the start. White ra made more money last 2 weeks than any1 in code A
Edit: white ra is also revered and he's not in Korea for sc2
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Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name
On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money.
Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL.
I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation.
As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well?
Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul.
We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l
gsl is also a lot harder. there are players who can probably make more by playing foreign tournaments and skipping gsl.
but I still agree with the sentiments of the OP. you can't really be considered "the top" unless you prove it in GSL.
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On February 01 2011 03:39 1Eris1 wrote:
Uh heres for most of the good foriengers
Korea
.0001% chance to win 50k every month
EU/NA/SEA
50% chance to win a few thousand each month
That's the most absurd fake percentage value I have ever seen someone use as an example. You're implying that there's only 1 good foreigner for each thousand good Koreans.
Personally I do agree with OP, regardless of all of the reasons that players have to participate in the GSL, Jinro would not be anywhere near as much of a successful, fan-backed player as he is today if he didn't place so well in the GSL twice already. Sjow is a really good player, and everyone knows that, but if he places well in the GSL, he suddenly becomes one of the best players. There's a huge difference between winning MLG and placing in the RO8 of the GSL, imho.
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I think the OP is correct. While foreigners may stand to make more money by living in their own respective countries, there will always be the perception of being a second tier player until you've reached the upper levels of a code S tournament.
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I would actually like more teams to stay in Europe/US to create a really competitive atmosphere here. We don't need Korea as long as the competition in west stays on par. And as you can make more money by just playing in Europe than Korea I don't see why the teams should make a move to Korea.
What I would like too see, is teams like Dignitas, Mouz, Empire etc establishing team houses in their respective countrys and start dominating the western scene. Because then everybody else would have to do the same if they want to stay competetive.
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In my opinion, It's not about money, it's about skill. At the moment the best players are in Korea so going there is a logical step. I'd say that if the foreign progamers choose not to go to Korea, and play on NA and EU, then they are nothing more than big fishes in a small pond.
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On February 01 2011 03:52 zakmaa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:39 1Eris1 wrote:
Uh heres for most of the good foriengers
Korea
.0001% chance to win 50k every month
EU/NA/SEA
50% chance to win a few thousand each month
That's the most absurd fake percentage value I have ever seen someone use as an example. You're implying that there's only 1 good foreigner for each thousand good Koreans. Personally I do agree with this post, regardless of all of the reasons that players have to participate in the GSL, Jinro would not be anywhere near as much of a successful, fan-backed player as he is today if he didn't place so well in the GSL twice already. Sjow is a really good player, and everyone knows that, but if he places well in the GSL, he suddenly becomes one of the best players. There's a huge difference between winning MLG and placing in the RO8 of the GSL, imho.
Yes, I remember when Jinro won MLG Dallas Championship. It opened people's eyes, but he didn't achieve legendary status where people would draw fan-arts, create videos, and follow him fanatically until he did well in the GSL.
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On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games.
lol...
Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on?
On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money.
For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it.
Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
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Ofcourse the best players want to compete in the tournament where the best players play, there's the most exposure, the biggest prize pool and overall content/facilities and it e-sports sc2 that happens to be in South Korea so ofcourse the best of the best wanna go there.
The same can be said about football, the best football players wanna compete where the greatest prize pool is, tounaments, fame and clubs and that happens to be in Europe which has the greatest club tournmanents as UEFA Champions League and Europa League. It's this league every football player in the world wanna play in cus ofcourse the best play here, every player from africa, asia, south america etc wanna go to Europe because it has the biggest break through. My 5 cent and comparison 
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Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea.
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if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
and EG & TL will have a huge profit at end this year, mean another foreigners teams, will be behind.
sorry by my poor english.
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On February 01 2011 04:11 xuanzue wrote:
if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
Yeah, jinro. But what is with huk, haypro, ret and tlo? They would have made much more money in the us/eu by now. Well, tlo actually already proved that, winning that poker thingy tournament in london.
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I love how the first two replies in this thread were about money, but were two opposing sides in the argument.
Given the lack of success foreign players other than IdrA and Jinro have had, I think it's pretty clear that you can easily make more money playing in tournaments outside Korea.
I think for most players, it's not about the money. To compete at a world-class level in anything, you need to be highly competitive and always working to be the best. Right now, for SC2, to be the best player, and prove you're the best player, you need to be in Korea. So, I think most players want to go to Korea to get better and to prove themselves. However, the main thing that's holding a lot of players back is actually money. Not the prize money, but the cost of going to Korea.
The teams run on sponsorship money. That's what lets them fly to different places to compete in tournaments. Why are they flying these players around? Brand exposure. The more visible the players and teams are, the more people see them and therefore the more visible the sponsor is. Right now, there's not a lot of foreigners consistently doing well in GSL, which means their sponsors aren't getting as much exposure. It costs money to send the player to Korea AND to sustain them (rent if they're not in the foreigner house, food, other expenses). Meanwhile, it becomes difficult for them to play in other tournaments as the ping to most of the battle.net servers outside Korea is very poor (North America might be decent, not sure) and flying them around will cost even more money. So, everything is riding on getting into the GSL and only a handful have actually done so, with only 2 foreigners actually doing well.
This is why the 4 foreigner Code A spots, and the foreigner house are so important. The house eliminates a significant portion of the cost of sending a player to Korea and the Code A spots skip the difficult qualifying hurdle instantly giving the player's sponsors the exposure.
So, as Chill put it, it's risk/reward analysis. And right now, the risk probably outweighs the reward unless the player gets an invite for one of the 4 Code A spots.
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On February 01 2011 04:08 Grummler wrote:
Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea.
If Huk is one of the best, he would've made something by now like Jinro and Idra
Sure S-class is hard, but achieving that status is what makes you good
Not to say that Huk is a horrible player, but one of the best is an overstatement until he can prove it
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On February 01 2011 04:13 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:11 xuanzue wrote:
if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
Yeah, jinro. But what is with huk, haypro, ret and tlo? They would have made much more money in the us/eu by now. Well, tlo actually already proved that, winning that poker thingy tournament in london.
they have trained with jinro helping him to achiev the Ro4.
Now they are in code A and in 2 months will be much better that staying in eu/us.
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On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:
On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on?
While there might be some resentment and ethnocentrism going on, I suspect that here, on the TL forums, it's just that people would like to see a healthy local competitive environment within which our own best players can succeed.
The quality of play at the top levels in Korea is obviously very high, and winning or placing in the premiere Korean tournament will probably be the pinnacle of achievement for a long time to come. However, it's probably a bad idea to underestimate the risk and expense of relocating to Korea to play in it.
That's part of the reason that GOMtv is offering to host top foreigners, to reduce that risk and expense where they can and ensure that GSL is a truly global tournament. However, their resources are limited, and for most overseas players it simply won't be a realistic possibility to relocate to Korea.
Incidentally, the OP seems to presume that there are a number of Western teams not on his list that have the resources to send people to Korea but have chosen not to. I'd be surprised if that were the case. Hearing CatZ talk about Root's finances on his stream (and let's be clear, I have tremendous respect for their team), it sounds like there's barely enough money to keep doing what they're doing, and I'd expect that to be the norm rather than the exception.
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just watch blizzcon / wcg / iem world finals, and you will see who is the best. domestic leagues, as big as the gsl, dont offer tihs opportunity because it has in fact nothing "global", and the very best dont all have the chance to prove their worth.
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On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. lol... Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on? On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money. For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it. Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
I was going to make a reply, but then I saw this post and it basically encompasses everything i could've and would want to say. I completely agree that to be considered one of the best, you have to play in the best league.
Right now, that just so happens to be the GSL. Many a player has taken a paycut on a foreign sports league to come to the US to play in the NBA. Same concept here
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On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Show nested quote +Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money.
I think it's not unreasonable to say that, if only because westerners who have headed over there to play in GSL appear to have met stiffer competition than in the tournaments over here.
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GSL has huge winning potential, but its just potential. The competition is huge and it is rife with various rushes and cut throat tactics to try and win.
If I had the opportunity (And the skills to pay the bills) to live in Korea and compete in the GSL, I probably wouldn't take it. Theres too much to lose. I wouldn't be able to see my family, I'd be forced to live in a foreign and unfamiliar place, playing a game as a job, with the potential to make zero income. Prestige and fame will only get you so far.
I don't see many more going to Korea, and if EVERYONE goes to Korea it will just isolate the scene even more. There will be fewer local tourneys and everyone will be competing for the GSL's pot of gold.
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On February 01 2011 03:25 Leviance wrote:
It's mainly because of the high prize pool GSL offered.
If a regular tourney series in Europe/America offered 85000$ while there wasn't anything comparable in Korea for SC2 people would aim to play there. It's all about the money.
I'm sure money has something to do with it, but the strongest players are in Korea hence the biggest tournament. I heard from many of the pros and their ideas about top foreigners vs. top koreans' skills aren't very far apart, but the overall skills of Koreans are much higher than any other regions.
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On February 01 2011 04:15 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:08 Grummler wrote:
Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea. If Huk is one of the best, he would've made something by now like Jinro and Idra Sure S-class is hard, but achieving that status is what makes you good Not to say that Huk is a horrible player, but one of the best is an overstatement until he can prove it
HuK have had one chance to qualify for GSL and that was when he had just arrived.
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in terms of world-wide prestige GSL would be the best choice for you, but even then you have to wade through hundreds of talented players to even get noticed
i wouldnt say that it makes the BEST starcraft players, but it surely makes them the BEST known/recognized
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar.
Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that?
So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend?
Edit: I don't want to sound so pessismistic, but your advice has no tangible merit. It's "the best players have to dominate the best tournament to be legends." That should be pretty much common sense for anything.
Somehow you spin this into talking down at teams not willing to send players to Korea. There's a huge disconnect between the two statements.
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On February 01 2011 04:22 DreamSailor wrote:
GSL has huge winning potential, but its just potential. The competition is huge and it is rife with various rushes and cut throat tactics to try and win.
If I had the opportunity (And the skills to pay the bills) to live in Korea and compete in the GSL, I probably wouldn't take it. Theres too much to lose. I wouldn't be able to see my family, I'd be forced to live in a foreign and unfamiliar place, playing a game as a job, with the potential to make zero income. Prestige and fame will only get you so far.
I don't see many more going to Korea, and if EVERYONE goes to Korea it will just isolate the scene even more. There will be fewer local tourneys and everyone will be competing for the GSL's pot of gold.
This is why I think by foreign GSL players are more respected and revered. They are willing to move to another country, be far away from their family, and compete with the best. This is why they are able to achieve "elite," "legendary," and "creme of the crop" status.
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On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend?
Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken.
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You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken.
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head.
Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
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On February 01 2011 04:36 Fraidnot wrote:
You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win.
Well said, I'm sure most pro gamers do not go into the gaming business to make big money. Because as big as a GSL first prize is, a decent college degree and a job will equal that.
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this post is a joke right?....
Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations that they cant just say "i want to go to korea so i can be known!"
chill said it the best theres no logic involved in what your saying
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On February 01 2011 04:15 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:08 Grummler wrote:
Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea. If Huk is one of the best, he would've made something by now like Jinro and Idra Sure S-class is hard, but achieving that status is what makes you good Not to say that Huk is a horrible player, but one of the best is an overstatement until he can prove it
He had only one chance to get into code A. And besides that, you pretty much prove my point. We dont know how good huk is right now, because he had only one single chance to show his skills during THREE MONTH. And that was right after he arrived 3 month ago, most likely being nervous and tired. Since then, he was basically removed from the whole sc2 competitive scene. Thats a situation most foreigners dont want to be in.
Good for him that he finally got a code A spot. So all he has to do now, is get top8 and defeat a former code s player. So he can be code S for gsl 6. Thats in APRIL.
If anything wents wrong for huk: See you in may. Maybe. If you get another code A seed, and get top8, and defeat a former code S.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:39 WhoaDrugs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:36 Fraidnot wrote:
You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win. Well said, I'm sure most pro gamers do not go into the gaming business to make big money. Because as big as a GSL first prize is, a decent college degree and a job will equal that.
But his point is that teams should fund the trip.
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It seems that people are more interested in money than competition. Why don't you go and smurf your way through gold league tournaments then? If you are not confdent in your skills, if you are afraid of getting destroyed by thr best players in the world, then your best bet might be to stay in NA / EU.
playing a game as a job
Preposterous !
So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend?
That sounds like a good piece of advice, I mean, who doesn't want to dominate Star Leagues? But that's not very realistic in my opinion. Why go to such extremes? There is a middle ground between getting destroyed in Code A qualifiers, and winning GSL finals 6 times in a row.
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head.
Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
Not to downplay their achievements but to me they are just big fishes in a small pond.
Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations
This is off-topic. If team don't have money, and players have prior obligations, then they are not pro teams, and these players are not Progamers.
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On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community.
Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
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I guess to the OP. MLG, IEM, dreamhack, etc... Big tourneys means nothing.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous."
Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880
lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless, already lived in Korea, and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time.
Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. His main tasks were to support ESTRO and their starcraft website scforall.com. He was friends with Tasteless, already lived in Korea, and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM later.
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On February 01 2011 04:48 DrunkeN. wrote:
I guess to the OP. MLG, IEM, dreamhack, etc... Big tourneys means nothing.
I remember Lee Chen from MLG talking in the State of the Game Podcast. He said if you had a chance to go to the GSL over MLG, then you should do it. He said GSL is just on another level and this is coming from someone who works at MLG!
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Money > fame
i think somebody else stated that. You dont have to live in Korea and still be a reputable player in other countries and haul in cash at tourneys
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On February 01 2011 04:43 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations This is off-topic. If team don't have money, and players have prior obligations, then they are not pro teams, and these players are not Progamers.
If you're working for a company and they offer you a promotion in another country yet you refuse because you have a wife and kids who go to school in the local area. Does that mean you're not a professional anymore? I don't understand your point.
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On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Show nested quote +Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Show nested quote +Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Show nested quote +Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated.
Uh, no.
Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life.
This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world.
To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else.
To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM.
Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best?
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I dont think it has to do as much with GSL as it does about MONEY
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On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM.
K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence.
If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal.
I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best?
You can play Starcraft with someone without being in the same room (country). I understand your point, but the analogy doesn't exactly line up.
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On February 01 2011 04:42 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:39 WhoaDrugs wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 Fraidnot wrote:
You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win. Well said, I'm sure most pro gamers do not go into the gaming business to make big money. Because as big as a GSL first prize is, a decent college degree and a job will equal that. But his point is that teams should fund the trip.
Honestly, teams should be concerned with improving the pro-scene in NA rather than sending their players to GSL. Sure, if you have someone of jinro, idra, etc.'s caliber, and they really want to go to Korea, it is probably worth the investment. But I think that teams should first invest more in the prosperity of more local e-sports.
In the long run, if the NA SC2 scene doesn't have large tournaments, it doesn't matter if it's huge in Korea -- nobody outside of a small niche gives a shit, and there will be practically no opportunities for foreign pro-gamers.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Team Liquid is the best team in the world..? They're good but.. I wouldn't say best in the world..
Looool! Obvious troll... In each region we have someone who is arguably the best foreigner.
Korea: Jinro
U.S.A: Tyler/HuK when he was here
Europe:TLO
Each of our players can legitimately be said to be able to pull off a Team Kill anyday!
Ofc, i'm not including the Korean clans in here but we will soon see whether we will hold our own there anyway!
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On February 01 2011 04:54 Tevinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:43 AlBundy wrote:Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations This is off-topic. If team don't have money, and players have prior obligations, then they are not pro teams, and these players are not Progamers. If you're working for a company and they offer you a promotion in another country yet you refuse because you have a wife and kids who go to school in the local area. Does that mean you're not a professional anymore? I don't understand your point.
Well being a progamer is not really compatible with real life. There are some exceptions but having a wife and kids is not the best thing when you want to reach the top. In my opinion you can't be the best when external things are holding you back.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps.
I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return."
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On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best?
Even ignoring obvious flaws in your analogy pointed out by Chill, your analogy is a complete and utter failure due to the fact that the US has lost to foreign teams in basketball several times in international competitions, despite those teams being from countries with less history in basketball and with much smaller populations.
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TSL has quite a big prize =) won't be ONLY koreans :D
and btw, as long as you're good and you play tournaments people will remember your name. I know a bunch of good players, and I won't forget them..
thtas like saying you'd forget about EGMachine or forget about NonY just because they arent in GSL.
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This post confuses me. I don't really see anything said. You're just oversimplifying a bigger picture. There's a lot more involved in sending a player to Korea other than "Hi I play SC2 and want to be the best so lets go to Korea." You're just making a statement and ignoring 90% of everything else? I hope what I said makes sense.
Edit - I feel like you're not looking at other things and that makes your post rather...flawed..Maybe that's the right word. Ugh, I'm having a bad time at putting my thoughts into words it seems.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best?
Comparing GSL to NBA is a very good comparison, imo.
With retro-spective view of BW, while I have huge respect for white-ra, nony and all other 'foreign players', in my view they simply did not have the skill to match up to the top notch pros of Korea, thus the reason they could not succeed in Korea. (good example is all those WCG tourneys where Korea dominated)
Nobody could argue that the average or top skill level of foreign SC2 scene is higher than Korea.
Most would agree that Korean scene's skill level is higher, thus the reasoning behind 'prestige' in Korean league, aka GSL.
This would be proven when the time for WCG comes.
This simply comes from having more professional SC2 players (or semi-pros at least at this moment), which is possible due to bigger & more numerous pro teams and bigger prize/sponsorship pool.
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On February 01 2011 05:04 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best? Even ignoring obvious flaws in your analogy pointed out by Chill, your analogy is a complete and utter failure due to the fact that the US has lost to foreign teams in basketball several times in international competitions, despite those teams being from countries with less history in basketball and with much smaller populations.
Are you nuts?
I suppose, that were I to play 500 matches against Jinro, I might just take one or two. That has no bearing on who is better overall.
Get a grip.
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On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
Nony and Mondragon have reputations as BW progamers. I don't think they've established themselves as SC2 legends yet. WhiteRa is probably the top foreigner protoss at the moment and he's held that title on and off since the beta.
So far I don't think anyone has really established themselves as "most dominant player" in the US/EU/SK or "best player of X race". People have been called those things, but for the most part they're temporary. The game is still developing rapidly so we're probably going to see the top players change frequently for a while yet.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:11 PukinDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:04 PJA wrote:On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best? Even ignoring obvious flaws in your analogy pointed out by Chill, your analogy is a complete and utter failure due to the fact that the US has lost to foreign teams in basketball several times in international competitions, despite those teams being from countries with less history in basketball and with much smaller populations. Are you nuts? I suppose, that were I to play 500 matches against Jinro, I might just take one or two. That has no bearing on who is better overall. Get a grip.
I swear people in this thread need to learn how to have a point.
What does you being terrible compared to Jinro have to do with anything? Are you implying that the losses in the international competitions are 1-in-500 flukes?
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:13 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony and Mondragon have reputations as BW progamers. I don't think they've established themselves as SC2 legends yet. WhiteRa is definitely the top foreigner protoss at the moment and he's held that title on and off since the beta.
Definitely agree, but his question was about fame, not how they got it.
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On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return."
You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium.
Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors.
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On February 01 2011 05:11 PukinDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:04 PJA wrote:On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best? Even ignoring obvious flaws in your analogy pointed out by Chill, your analogy is a complete and utter failure due to the fact that the US has lost to foreign teams in basketball several times in international competitions, despite those teams being from countries with less history in basketball and with much smaller populations. Are you nuts? I suppose, that were I to play 500 matches against Jinro, I might just take one or two. That has no bearing on who is better overall. Get a grip.
How is the fact that the US lost to countries like Spain, Luthuania, etc. multiple times between 1994 and 2006 proof that the US is massively dominant?
Even if failing to win the world championships 3 times in a row is partially due to chance, losing to countries who don't have nearly as high a population, monetary resources nor history in the sport and yet claiming to be so good that no country could compete if they tried is LOL.
EDIT: Why are you so defensive about this topic anyway?
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I would rather be a pro gamer in Europe though I don't envy the lifestyle in any environment. I'm biased though because my life is especially awesome. Seems like European money is more consistent to me.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors.
Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back?
You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received.
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I think the majority of players will make more money outside of Korea for the most part doing online tourneys/invites/lans etc. Code A championship only offers like 1500 and a chance at getting into code S. there's also the cost of staying in kor. even with the foreigner house not everyone can stay in that place. Don't think foreign players really need to prove anything either, the level of play in non-gsl tourneys has been pretty high and entertaining.
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On February 01 2011 03:39 1Eris1 wrote:
Uh heres for most of the good foriengers
Korea
.0001% chance to win 50k every month
EU/NA/SEA
50% chance to win a few thousand each month
I think GSL is not only price money
Code A/S players receive salary from gom just for being code A/S.
+ sponsor money
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What a strange way of looking at things. Just participating is enough I take it? Legendary status sure has devaluated :/
I doubt there's a team in the world that wouldn't want to have players in the GSL, it's hardly a matter of "just get them there and it'll all work out", there's other considerations as people've pointed out. Not to mention that there's still quite a few people in there now who aren't that amazing vs people in other leagues who are. And who got there by skill too, not just by moving somewhere, seems a bit condescending to them tbh.
I'd argue the game's a bit young for legends anyways, though I understand we like looking for em. The teams you mention (aside from TL) have just started this though (and we've started seeing Koreans over on our end as well), give it some time to develop before casting this in stone.
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About this real sports analogy: sure US lost a lot of times in international competitions, but that does not exclude the fact that US national leagues are more competitive.
Brasil has won a ton of FIFA World Cup, but their national leagues and championships are definitely not on the same level than European ones.
Foreigners may be able to win international events (such as Blizzcon and Dreamhack) but that does not exclude the fact that Korean scene and its GSL is the most competitive.
on-topic, as other people said, unfortunately money seems to be a big factor, if not the biggest.
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I think the OP is right, the only way for players to gain the maximum recognition and skill level is to train and compete with the very best, and right now, and probably for a long time, that's GSL. without a doubt. It's not just about prizes or players, it's also about their gaming culture, dedication and production values, these are aspects in which foreign players can improve massively by competing in korea. Just take a look at Jinro, he's changed as a player dramatically and in every possible aspect since he moved.
The problem with the GSL is that, for foreign teams, it implies a huge risk with a minimal chance for rewards, at the same time, however, it is so unlikely for the foreign scene to reach korean standards (not talking about player skill) that each player has to weigh going to the GSL to improve as a player, or staying in EU/US, which would prevent the tremendous sacrifice that it means to go to a tournament only to play in THAT tournament, and leaving many things back at home. For younger players it might be a rather easy gamble, hell, I'd do it. But as life continues and resposibilities grow, it becomes insanely hard to do.
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On February 01 2011 04:59 SushilS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:29 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Team Liquid is the best team in the world..? They're good but.. I wouldn't say best in the world.. Looool! Obvious troll... In each region we have someone who is arguably the best foreigner. Korea: Jinro U.S.A: Tyler/HuK when he was here Europe:TLO Each of our players can legitimately be said to be able to pull off a Team Kill anyday! Ofc, i'm not including the Korean clans in here but we will soon see whether we will hold our own there anyway!
how is he trolling?
he was obviously including Korean clans in his statement because you can't say they're the best in the world unless you include all the teams
yes these players could pull off a Team Kill anyday, but so could any other Korean progamer
if you watch BW at all, you'll sometimes see some random player get an all-kill or close to one
what separates these players from others is their consistency, and for now I would say only Jinro would be able to consistently pull Team Kills
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I think the difference in the NBA-GSL analogy is that every basketball player who gets picked up by a
NBA team will earn more in the NBA than he would in the league of his home country, even if he is just middle tier in NBA and not the next Kobe. But if you go to compete in the GSL the financial reward is only better if you win it or have consecutive success (if you are one of the very best).
So going to the GSL is financially a big risk for every foreigner, whereas going to play in the NBA is financially a gain even if you never win the whole thing with your team.
Whe we look at the fame and respect that one can gain by going "oversea" its comparable. European Basketball players who play in the NBA are considered the better players even if they arent the best in the NBA, compared to the best players in european leagues.Same goes for Starcraft players and Korea.
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IEM Europe was much more fun to watch than any GSL finals. Why exactly is GSL "the pinnacle"?
They limit themself in Korean players and those who agree to come to Korea for a long period of time (and not leave Korea during the tournament -- remember how Idra had to miss Dreamhack?). So they can not have ALL the best players.
Yes, GSL has huge prize money. Yes, they have huge coverage... in Korea. Outside of Korea all you have is a crappy 512k stream.
What is great for players is living in the atmosphere of Korean progaming camps. That will definitely improve their skills a lot. Missing 99% of other tournaments will not
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I know i might be shooting myself in the foot here, but in the gstl, teamliquid didn't even place. Sure they are good, but hardly the best.
Sorry to offend anyone.
EDIT: Also that guy ealrier saying Teamliquid isn't best team, he wasn't trolling it's a fact... No need to get angry.
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Its down to blizzard to make the big tournaments outside of Korea imo, they have there name behind the GSL so why dont they create something big for the EU and NA scenes also? I dont get why the dont tbh because SC2 is still way more popular outside of Korea atm.
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On February 01 2011 05:37 MERLIN. wrote:
I know i might be shooting myself in the foot here, but in the gstl, teamliquid didn't even place. Sure they are good, but hardly the best.
Sorry to offend anyone.
You might want to consider how many TL members there are in Korea compared to Prime for example, and they were still only one spot away from participating.
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On February 01 2011 05:36 Alexj wrote:
IEM Europe was much more fun to watch than any GSL finals. Why exactly is GSL "the pinnacle"?
GSL is the pinnacle because players are competent enough to exploit weak strategies and end the game fast.
IEM players did not have the same game sense and risks were rewarded too often, so the game proceeds to a late/end game.
Want proof? Just look at IMMVP rip apart TSL_Tester. Tester got greedy with fast expos and the champion knew how to counter his build.
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What I'm taking away from this discussion is that we need some way for players all around the world to compete at the highest level, without needing an all-expenses-paid trip to Korea and forcing the player to leave his life behind.
It would be pretty cool if there were a GSL for each region (with smaller prize pools probably), and each year, the top-placing players from each region were invited for a Grand Tournament with a bigger prize pool and all the fame and excitement that would come from a once-a-year event.
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Yes I realize that they were only 1 spot away, 9th. I'm just saying the post said "best team in the world" Don't get me wrong, Jinro is my favourite player right now, all I mean is that they are not the "best".
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There are also lots of smaller tourneys in Korea. Artosis and Tasteless talk about them from time to time while they commentate. Also, if your living in a team house or something like it you don't have to pay the bills that the minor winnings you make in non-korea go towards.
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I think, everynoe who plays Starcraft 2, should move to south korea. Let's all just do it, rent out all the gyms and bunker down and set up some internet and PC BANG korea. Gogo?
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On February 01 2011 05:16 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:11 PukinDog wrote:On February 01 2011 05:04 PJA wrote:On February 01 2011 04:55 PukinDog wrote:On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated. Uh, no. Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life. This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world. To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else. To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM. Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best? Even ignoring obvious flaws in your analogy pointed out by Chill, your analogy is a complete and utter failure due to the fact that the US has lost to foreign teams in basketball several times in international competitions, despite those teams being from countries with less history in basketball and with much smaller populations. Are you nuts? I suppose, that were I to play 500 matches against Jinro, I might just take one or two. That has no bearing on who is better overall. Get a grip. I swear people in this thread need to learn how to have a point. What does you being terrible compared to Jinro have to do with anything? Are you implying that the losses in the international competitions are 1-in-500 flukes?
Ding Ding! You win the prize. Winning does NOT mean better. Let a Foreign Team play in the NBA a full season. Dead last. Any team from anywhere.
Dead last.
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On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL.
Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar.
Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received.
First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts?
If the teams think it's worth nothing at all, then they are in the wrong business. Companies sponsor teams for the brand exposure.
If a team is sending a player to korea for only 2 months, then they probably shouldn't have sent them at all. They first need to train and practice in Korea. There are short-term and long-term investments. I see the GSL has a long-term investment. One can't expect quick rewards, but if they stick for the long haul, they are most likely to see results. Like Huk. He's now in the code A tournament after working hard rising through the ladder.
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Koreans are better ?
No discussion there, they are overall better ...
If u see how much try train they arent that much better, sometimes even worse...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
It's a bit idealistic and ignorant to tell teams you don't know and have no idea of how they're funded or structured that they have an obligation to send their players to korea. Do you really think it hasn't crossed their minds? As chill pointed out numerous times already, it is a big financial risk and a lot of teams just aren't prepared to take it yet. That doesn't necessarily mean they're doing their players injustice and denying them a chance at the ultimate glory. If a player really wants to go, they'll have to take the initiative and make it happen like HuK did by joining TL. You cannot blame the teams for being financially prudent.
You also have to remember that the GSL is very very young. As the scene grows and becomes more and more accessible to non-korean participants (like GOM foreigner house, automatic code A spots...etc), I'm sure you'll see an increase in the non-korean team presence. You'll just have to give them time to plan things out and secure proper funding.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:
[quote]
Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that?
So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts?
Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing.
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On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken.
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing.
More brand recognition means more people buying your products...
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Fact is the only reason we're able to see Jinro and the other Liquid members in Korea right now is thanks to TLAF(Matt is it?). If TL was an ordinary team with company sponsors this would never have been possible. I bet every team would like an super cool guy with piles of gold backing them up but they are a rare breed, it's naive and unrealistic to expect organizations to send their players there when the competition is so fierce and prize pool so small(unless you finish top4-8 code S).
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After reading through this thread, I have come to the conclusion that unless a player is guaranteed to reach Idra or Jinro level of success in the GSL, it's VERY difficult to justify the investment to send them over. Travelling to and staying in Korea for several months costs quite a bit of money, time, and a social life. Failing to qualify for the GSL makes this investment seem like a waste, even when given the opportunity to interact with the Korean scene.
Though the level of play in the GSL is very high, it is not the only source of high level play. In fact, I might go as far to say that the Korean scene is very much detached from the foreign scenes, to a degree that participation in Korea is not required to be a household name on TL.
Winning in GSL is nice, but unless a player is winning GSLs consistently, they are at risk of just becoming another high-level Korean player instead of a legend. GSL hasn't produced the SC2 version of BoxeR or NaDa yet, though I'm sure that will change in the coming months. It would be nice if a foreign player to win GSL, yet unless he win consistently, only foreigners will consider him to be a legend while the rest of the Korean scene just brushes him off as yet another one-time Starleague winner.
I would say that winning multiple foreign tournaments is way more viable than investing to win GSL. MLG, IEM, and Dreamhack have produced well-recognized names and entertaining games, the latter of which is a bigger basis for player fame than any Starleague victory.
Then again, the overall SC2 scene is still very young, and we still need time to see if the foreign scene has matured enough to be a viable alternative to the Korean scene, though it seems to be trending towards that case.
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On February 01 2011 06:13 Longshank wrote:
Fact is the only reason we're able to see Jinro and the other Liquid members in Korea right now is thanks to TLAF(Matt is it?). If TL was an ordinary team with company sponsors this would never have been possible. I bet every team would like an super cool guy with piles of gold backing them up but they are a rare breed, it's naive and unrealistic to expect organizations to send their players there when the competition is so fierce and prize pool so small(unless you finish top4-8 code S).
Well, prize pool aside, one can say that being able to play in GSL and in Code S is a good reward in and of itself.
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why does everyone think that we need to go to Korea? the GSL needs to come to us. Non Koreans know that the only way to make a decent living is moving to Korea, but its a pretty big commitment to move to a foreign country and trying to live there. GSL needs to expand to other shores and we would instantly see a rise in the quality of non korean players, simple as that.
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This posts just argues a bunch of stuff everyone already knows and over states some as"elite and revered status" No one is at that point yet really. Why wouldn't teams want to send their people to Korea? Due to production value it's a great way to plug sponsors. The other thing is North Americans are lazy and egotistical. They like to feel like they're amazing and they matter and rather sit back and do well in open online and lan tournys rather than go get destroyed by the Korean server. It really can't be only me that noticed it when you watch something like GSL than go and look at MLG or IEM Even tho they are so pretty amazing games sometimes. It almost feels like watching entry level code A at best. I think there is a HUGE gap between a good player on EU and NA and a good player on the Korean server and due to pride it's something alot of people won't admit.
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On February 01 2011 06:17 Project Psycho wrote:
why does everyone think that we need to go to Korea? the GSL needs to come to us. Non Koreans know that the only way to make a decent living is moving to Korea, but its a pretty big commitment to move to a foreign country and trying to live there. GSL needs to expand to other shores and we would instantly see a rise in the quality of non korean players, simple as that.
I think Qaatar talked a bit about that in his post:
On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. lol... Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on? On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money. For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it. Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
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Well it's pretty expensive to send guys out to Korea for ONE tournament. No offense to any of the teams that aren't sending people, but do you really think some of the guys on the smaller teams really have a legit shot at seriously competing at the GSL? I suppose there's an incredibly small chance one of them COULD get far, but is it worth sending them to Korea? You would need some pretty deep pockets...
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Whitera is considered a legend. I am willing to bet he can take on any korean and man handle him like he does with his current compatition. He has made more money in the past 2 weeks while staying at home with friends and family than even the winner of Code A and 98% of Code S. Granted it is true if you want the fame go to GSL and prove you are a badass. If you want the richs play more tournaments. And Korea only has one. So it really comes down to the players themselves. Do they want to make a living or be remembered
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If we look at how hard it was to even qualify for GSL 1-3 and how hard it was to stay in Code A for the foreigners that went there, I really can't come to any other conclusion than that the level in the GSL is the highest.
I am not saying that for instance the top 8 in the GSL are better than anybody else, because people perform quite differently over time. TSL_Rain did very well early on, know he has been knocked down to Code A. FruitDealer won the first tournament but hasn't been able to perform too well after that.
What I am trying to say is that if you took the top 16 of GSL January 2011 against the top 16 players from the rest of the world, I would be really surprised if the top 4 weren't from the GSL.
Types of play that I see done in for instance this fight between Whitera and TLO: http://sc2casts.com/cast2387-TLO-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-5-TL-Open-Finals I really can't see happening in the GSL. It would have been shut down by more aggressive styles of play, exloiting weaknesses.
Another thing I see in the GSL is that players prepare for matches figuring out their opponents. Watching IMMvp crush MarineKingPrime.WE wasn't a coincidence. He had studied his opponent and found his weakness and exploited it as much as it's possible. It's not something I have seen in the typical European tournaments. It might be because of the short timespan EU/US tournaments are played in that doesn't allow players to think between games. I remember seeing one where one of the players basically had been playing for 6-7 hours straight because he got into the loser's bracket very early and crushed everybody up to the final which he lost.
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On February 01 2011 06:25 HKarmY wrote:
I am willing to bet he can take on any korean and man handle him like he does with his current compatition.
This is debatable, in my opinion that's far from true.
He has made more money in the past 2 weeks while staying at home with friends and family than even the winner of Code A and 98% of Code S. Granted it is true if you want the fame go to GSL and prove you are a badass.
I agree.
If you want the richs play more tournaments. And Korea only has one.
Wrong.
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On February 01 2011 06:21 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well it's pretty expensive to send guys out to Korea for ONE tournament. No offense to any of the teams that aren't sending people, but do you really think some of the guys on the smaller teams really have a legit shot at seriously competing at the GSL? I suppose there's an incredibly small chance one of them COULD get far, but is it worth sending them to Korea? You would need some pretty deep pockets...
I was referring to the bigger teams. Smaller teams will work there way up. Just like how players work there way up from smaller tournaments to bigger tourneys and eventually attend offline events.
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On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money.
unless your name is Jinro, =)
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:11 xuanzue wrote:
if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
He may well have earnt the most, but I'm not sure it's by a huge amount. By my estimates Jinro has made close on $20k from his performances at the GSL and MLG Dallas, I'm not sure on money from any minor events he might have participated in (if any), it's roughly a 3month time window at any rate.
By contrast over a similar period I'd estimate Sjow and WhiteRa to have both made close on $16k by placing high at a number of middling sized events, while both Naama and BratOK have taken huge wins at big lans (15k dreamhack & 10k beeline respectively).
The GSL without a doubt has the best players in the world playing in it, but it's still too much of a high risk situation for a lot of players right now. If your team isn't in a position to help you set up in Korea then going is a sizeable investment for a very small window of opportunity, you might be one of the best players in the world but it's not like qualifying is going to be easy, and even then you don't start making good regular winnings unless you are placing high (talk of hypothetical salaries notwithstanding). With that in mind, it just looks like it makes more sense to compete regionally in easier to win events for the time being simply because it's easier for them to get a decent income,
(All numbers come from placings listed on liquipedia over the last 3 months or so)
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head.
Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products...
There's three groups here that you're confusing:
1. The player
2. The team
3. The sponsor
The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money.
So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500."
No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 NearPerfection wrote:
I think your counting chicks before they hatch. Just because Koreans dominated Sc1 doesn't mean they will dominate Sc2. Using Wc3 as an example Grubby was considered the best in europe and Moon was considered the best in korea and even tho for much of 2004-2007 they didn't compete in eachothers leagues they were both still considered "the best". That aside, there is still a very huge room for improvement as far as sponsorships and financing so far as NA esports is concerned. But it definately as improved by a huge amount with several NA pro teams and MLG.
Have you watched GSL at all?
Even the middle tier Koreans like Genius would dominate the Euro/NA scene.
White-Ra was right though - why would he move to another country when he could have a better shot at more money in Europe?
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i dont think its at that stage yet.
i think most people have linked this together:
if you want to make money playing football, you move to europe
if you want to make money playing basketball, you move to USA.
Starcraft is still at a level where staying in korea does not out-weigh the other benefits of staying local(depends on person+location).
Bigger prize pool is one but the main thing would be like having kespa system, salary paid players and not have to work their ass off + better living standards.
before "letting players compete at the highest level" comes "can we make money by sending these guys overseas"
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On February 01 2011 06:38 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:29 NearPerfection wrote:
I think your counting chicks before they hatch. Just because Koreans dominated Sc1 doesn't mean they will dominate Sc2. Using Wc3 as an example Grubby was considered the best in europe and Moon was considered the best in korea and even tho for much of 2004-2007 they didn't compete in eachothers leagues they were both still considered "the best". That aside, there is still a very huge room for improvement as far as sponsorships and financing so far as NA esports is concerned. But it definately as improved by a huge amount with several NA pro teams and MLG. Have you watched GSL at all? Even the middle tier Koreans like Genius would dominate the Euro/NA scene.
Umm Genius is not middle tier. He's widely considered to be a top 3 Protoss in the world and he's a solid S-class player (top 16).
Anyone been watching HuK's stream at all? I watched him roflstomp oGsMC.. and let me tell you.. there's no reason to assume that even tip top of the top Koreans would easily take foreigner tournaments. Time will tell as more foreigners begin to compete in the GSL with adequate practice time and facilities.
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You realise how players are funded through their teams? Sponsorship, sponsors sponsor teams to gain influence for their products.
GSL code S (the only one tourney which gives the fame/fortune you seem to be alluding to) is one tournament with a hellish qualifying system which takes a month each time you try (without talking about getting into code A to begin with).
GSL code S gives you 5 days of play containing each individual player per month if you make the finals AND is on at bad times for the Western playerbase AND makes you pay for VODs.
The cost for a sponsor to pay for flights to and lodgings in Korea is massive, the cost increases if you attempt to send them to other tournaments such as MLG and due to latency you can't play for any of the EU/US online tourneys which have free streams and VOD's generally. Also players can't qualify for the imo equally prestigious (to GSL) yearly IEM tourneys.
Why exactly should sponsors and teams shell out thousands of dollars to establish a base in Korea when its a complete risk, takes months to even qualify for the most prestigious league, isolates them from their Western fanbase whom watch them every week in the US/Euro events and all this for a tournament which actively reduces the amount of people who can watch it?
Oh I forgot, to gain "legendary status" all you have to do is place ro4 in a GSL twice and win one MLG? I admit Jinro is a great foreigner but I dislike the fact you're throwing around legendary like its going out of fasion.
Also I get that many of you are rabid Liquid fans and of course I love them but saying they are leagues ahead of other great foreigner teams like dignitas and mouz is ridiculous to me.
That said I'm a massive skeptic and believe the GSL is bombing in Korea and will never kick off so and that the foreign community should just concentrate on the Western community but w/e.
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On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community.
Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds.
K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor.
Here's how I would envision the exchange:
Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL
Sponsor: How much are we talking about here?
Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities.
Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea
Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months.
Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it.
Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%?
Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL.
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On February 01 2011 03:20 ptbl wrote:
EG and its player understand how it’s important to have a strong presence in the GSL.
If this was intentional, I lol'd.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:[quote] Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it.
In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money?
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On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL.
i think they both made it out of groups and played each other in the first round of the tournament, but even so they didnt dominate like a lot of people assume they would
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On February 01 2011 06:25 HKarmY wrote:
Whitera is considered a legend. I am willing to bet he can take on any korean and man handle him like he does with his current compatition. He has made more money in the past 2 weeks while staying at home with friends and family than even the winner of Code A and 98% of Code S. Granted it is true if you want the fame go to GSL and prove you are a badass. If you want the richs play more tournaments. And Korea only has one. So it really comes down to the players themselves. Do they want to make a living or be remembered
You do realize that white-ra is the nestea of the non Koreans, the only other with similar prize money to him is Sjow. Comparing the best of the non Koreans with all of code S and A does not seems fair. Most non Koreans earn a lot less than he.
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On February 01 2011 07:04 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL. i think they both made it out of groups and played each other in the first round of the tournament, but even so they didnt dominate like a lot of people assume they would
Considering one of them didn`t make it far because the other eliminated him (Top knocked out Inca), and Top placing 3rd shows koreans are pretty damn good. Those 2 aren`t even the top players in korea.
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On February 01 2011 07:12 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:04 FrankWalls wrote:On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL. i think they both made it out of groups and played each other in the first round of the tournament, but even so they didnt dominate like a lot of people assume they would Considering one of them didn`t make it far because the other eliminated him (Top knocked out Inca), and Top placing 3rd shows koreans are pretty damn good. Those 2 aren`t even the top players in korea.
The only reason Inca and Top went to dream hack was because they couldn't get into the gsl. Don't forget ogsJ (who is definitely not one of ogs top players) got 3rd in fxo open and ogsSTC (who is in the army and lack practice) became champion poising like only 2 set.
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Root gaming > VTgaming imo, saying it all comes down to Korea is silly, winning an MLG is just as important
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You have to think about the geographical differences between Korea, and NA+EU.
They can have team houses that work in Korea because everything is based in a single city, in a relatively small country.
There isn't exactly a "Central spot" for non-korean teams to set up a base per say. No matter where you decide to put it, your still going to have to fly people all over the world to take part in the tourneys.
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On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence.
If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal.
I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps.
I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money?
Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors.
If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series.
Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams.
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Easier said than done. It costs a lot of money for a team to send a player over to Korea and pay for his expenses. Your posts makes it seem like it's possible for every progamer/team to do, but they aren't because they're ducking the competition. It's not that simple. I'm pretty sure most progamers would love the chance to compete and train in Korea, but financially it isn't possible at the moment.
Teams need to gradually gain exposure through smaller tournaments (smaller than GSL) to get sponsors. That's how it works.
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Its really just a matter of preference. We'd love to see more foreigners in Seoul Korea and in the GSL, but ultimately it takes time and money to try to climb up the top. There are obstacles in the way and some people just do not want to go through just for the trouble of competing with the best.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 Backpack wrote:I think White-Ra put it nicely in his recent interview after winning the TSL qualifier. Show nested quote +GSL is just one tournament, if you put your time and money to go there for one tournament, yes GSL is very good but you lost too much time and investment. You can't play EU online leagues, Black Dragon, and many others. Also I make commitment to all these leagues and I can't just turn my back and refuse. There are many tournament in USA and Europe too, like MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, Assembly, and England too. If you live in Korea you just play one. GSL is only big because of the money. If it were anywhere other than Korea, it would be much more popular. Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l Only one person wins first place though. More tournaments = more chances to win. One GSL = Putting all your eggs into one basket.
Yea agreed, this may be the most "prestigious" tournament to win but its not smart for foreigners to forgo the chance to be competing in all the other tournaments going on in the world. Look at how much time all the players spent in Code A and the most any of them made was a lil more than 1000 dollars and not even a guaranteed spot in Code S. As much as I want to see more foreigners in GSL, I understand that its not practical for all of them to go and compete in Korea
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On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l
except that the average income is only about $30grand annually in America.
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On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. lol... Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on? On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money. For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it. Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
This is pretty much how I feel about this topic.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:
[quote]
I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams.
Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea.
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while you bring up some valid points about how going to the GSL and stomping face is a sure way to attain status of being more than just a "good player" I cant help but feel that talking in absolutes is never a good thing. Also funny how you say that teams need to go to the GSL. No they dont. In the end they need to make ends meet, going to the GSL is not a sure way to get it done.
You should get your feet on the ground(cos it seems like you arent, and if you are then I apologise for this whole sentence) and start thinking about how it works in the real world and realise that there is almost more money to be made outside of korea right now than what you would get back in return from going there. Winning the GSL is risky and almost not worth it considering just how much of a risk it is. I'd say that if you are a big team you dont really need to go to Korea since you've already made a name for yourself and also that if you're a big team then there are others to think about than just the players.
Plenty of players have made a name for themselves in the sc2 community and are considered among the best even though they havent butted heads with others in the GSL. White-ra being the most outstanding example of that right now. I also find it funny how you say that teams with money need to send their players to korea as if you actually knew what goes on inside those teams. It's almost saying that despite a negative return on investment it's still worth it, cos its what they need. risk and reward, it's how it works and right now the risk is outweighing the reward for most teams.
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In my eyes Korean pros take SC2 as job first then pleasure/hobby. While western pros (excl. HuK, Jinro, IdrA) take SC2 as pure pleasure/hobby and are pure bounty hunters in tournaments. Those 2 can not compare in the long run. Now that the game is relative new, foreigners do have a chance competing against Korean pros BUT... The gap will spread like a ************ if foreigner pros don't take the game as "serious" as Koreans do.
If you take SC2 serious as a pro gamer, you will eventually be in Korea competing (or trying to) in GSL.
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Also if you think IEM is equally prestigious to GSL you need to rewatch GSL
the player quality is not even close. Most IEM players wouldn't even make it into Code A.
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For sc2 Korea has the most competitive and highest-skilled scene, not because koreans are "better" or anything. It's because Korea has Sc1. Over time when all the best players are from all over the world, Korea will be less important, but as of now, the GSL offers not only the most money for the winner but also by far the most prestige. People yawn when koreans do well in European tournaments. Jinro hitting Ro4 had pretty much every nonkorean who cares about sc2 shitting their brains with excitement. I only bring up Jinro because he got farther than idra, and nobody really hates Jinro. I mean come on. Sweden has all the hot wimmenz.
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I strongly believe people should go to korea just for the experience. As FXOpen stated, you have not seen true e-sports until you go to korea. Maybe if some top foreign players visit, they might be more influenced by the competitiveness.
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On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium.
Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors.
Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea.
Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once.
The core question is what is the purpose of a team. For him the answer to that is to support the players, to dominate other teams and to earn enough status to be recognized widely. GSL arguably is the best stage to compete in in order to gain that. Because it has the most solid structure, consistency, price money, production value, best athletes and toughest competition.
Your answer seems to be that the primary goal of a team is to make money. I strongly disagree with that, though to each their own.
You could make the argument that going for Korea isn't effective, because your chances of placing high are not as good as in other venues. When you do that though you are admitting that GSL is more competitive than what your team can handle, that your team is weak sauce and you also cripple your own potential. Who wants to follow and cheer for a team which doesn't give its best and doesn't even believe in themselves. That's not the spirit of competition.
It has a pragmatic aspect, but also one that is shooting yourself in the foot.
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I think there is plenty other smaller tournament in korea, i've seen some team leagues and other with the top pros, the competion is fierce tho.
My point is i also think all of them should go to korea even if they might not make some money they would have a good life experience. practice and improve in life and gaming wise. Take it like studying abroad for a few months.
If you enjoy it and have success you stay and if you want to go, i'm sure you will be a better player and would have a good life experience. I mean who wouldn't want to live in a asian country? I visited asia and love it!
The guys that talk about euros and americans setting up team houses in their countrys is also very productive, because they talk about the game and practice way more and can participate in smaller tournaments, while staying more countable in a similar culture.
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Totally agree with the OP. I still respect the Dimagas and the WhiteRas of the world, but I'll never be like "holy shit this guy might be one of the best players in the world" like I do for Jinro and IdrA. None of the players really care about my opinion either, just sayin'.
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On February 01 2011 08:47 War Horse wrote:
Also if you think IEM is equally prestigious to GSL you need to rewatch GSL
the player quality is not even close. Most IEM players wouldn't even make it into Code A.
IEM finals are easily on par with Code A GSL and probably if it was the same format (where you could study/prepare builds for sniping people) it'd easily be as "high tier" as GSL S.
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On February 01 2011 07:38 FlashIsHigh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:29 Backpack wrote:I think White-Ra put it nicely in his recent interview after winning the TSL qualifier. GSL is just one tournament, if you put your time and money to go there for one tournament, yes GSL is very good but you lost too much time and investment. You can't play EU online leagues, Black Dragon, and many others. Also I make commitment to all these leagues and I can't just turn my back and refuse. There are many tournament in USA and Europe too, like MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, Assembly, and England too. If you live in Korea you just play one. GSL is only big because of the money. If it were anywhere other than Korea, it would be much more popular. On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l Only one person wins first place though. More tournaments = more chances to win. One GSL = Putting all your eggs into one basket. Yea agreed, this may be the most "prestigious" tournament to win but its not smart for foreigners to forgo the chance to be competing in all the other tournaments going on in the world. Look at how much time all the players spent in Code A and the most any of them made was a lil more than 1000 dollars and not even a guaranteed spot in Code S. As much as I want to see more foreigners in GSL, I understand that its not practical for all of them to go and compete in Korea
I think GSL is not only price money
Code A/S players receive salary from gom just for being code A/S.
+ sponsor money
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:
[quote]
Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back?
You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once.
So I have:
Option 1) Spend nothing extra and make X.
Option 2) Spend extra and still make X.
How has that debased my argument at all? Unless these teams are operating as not-for-profits...
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On February 01 2011 09:28 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once. So I have: Option 1) Spend nothing extra and make X. Option 2) Spend extra and still make X. How has that debased my argument at all? Unless these teams are operating as not-for-profits... There's a flaw in your comparison. 1) and 2) do not both make X, at least if you are not only talking about money, which then comes down to the question of the purpose of a team, which you have not answered.
1) Spend nothing extra and admit that your team is only mediocre on the world stage and that your team does not aspire to compete with the best nor to be the best.
2) Spend extra and maintain your integrity in the form of your spirit of competition, the core value of all sports. That is the least you get. If your results are in your favour than you additionally get status. Winning the superbowl means more than winning a college league, I hope you can agree with that.
My point was that going to korea doesn't cut into these sources of income, which I thought was your point against going there, but your argument was just that going to Korea doesn't earn you anything you couldn't also get outside of Korea, my bad.
I strongly disagree with that though. It doesn't seem to be an accurate depiction of reality. An answer to that one question would be welcome and probably the only way to resolve the issue.
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Im sorry to say but all this talk about money, doesnt husky like make more money a year then any sc2 gamer not counting GSL champion?
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On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:
[quote]
Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back?
You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once. The core question is what is the purpose of a team. For him the answer to that is to support the players, to dominate other teams and to earn enough status to be recognized widely. GSL arguably is the best stage to compete in in order to gain that. Because it has the most solid structure, consistency, price money, production value, best athletes and toughest competition. Your answer seems to be that the primary goal of a team is to make money. I strongly disagree with that, though to each their own. You could make the argument that going for Korea isn't effective, because your chances of placing high are not as good as in other venues. When you do that though you are admitting that GSL is more competitive than what your team can handle, that your team is weak sauce and you also cripple your own potential. Who wants to follow and cheer for a team which doesn't give its best and doesn't even believe in themselves. That's not the spirit of competition. It has a pragmatic aspect, but also one that is shooting yourself in the foot.
Chill and I have different definition of what it means to be a team. I think this is where the root of our disagreement lies. He looks at it more of an entrepreneur and business perspective, while I see a team as a supporting unit that mainly exist for the players. I don't see teams as profit driven, but led by team spirit and camaraderie. Teams exist for fame, glory, and prestige. If money comes as a result of fame and glory, all the better .
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I think Starcraft players and fans fetishise Korean way, wayyyyyyy too much.
Having an entire sport based in just one country is not healthy and if every good player moves to Korea it will be a massive setback for western esports. Don't get me wrong, GSL is a great league, but it is not the be-all end-all of Starcraft II, let alone esports.
Maybe people have this Korea fetish because they don't follow other esports games and don't see that they work in the West, i don't know. But every other non-BW esports game has had, or still has, a solid scene outside of Korea and SC2 is the same. GSL is surely the big kahuna right now but there are other tournaments which aren't so far behind, and there will be more in future.
SC2 will really have 'made it' imo (i know that sounds ridiculous but i'm tired and can't think of a better way to phrase it right now) when Koreans come over here to play in tournaments as well. That represents a much healthier sport than the brain-drain that is currently the trend.
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imo sc2 players should maintain their focus on expanding coverage for sc2 in the western world and just ignore the GSL (unless for monetary reasons). The massive network of sc2 tournaments, though patchwork, makes for a strong competition circuit that is inclusive to a large variety gamers. Though it's hard to see now, I have real hope that the reach/prestige/power of such a network will eventually grow stronger and maybe even consolidate into a single gaming league. It's never been done before in the West, sure, but it could happen: the rise of professional BW in Korea followed a similar grassroots approach, with small local tournaments teaming up and eventually forming a network strong enough to sustain the critical mass of interest in competitive BW.
IMO, this sort of approach is the correct way to developing a professional league: start from the bottom, be inclusive to most, and eventually foment a critical mass of dedicated gamers and viewers that will serve proof positive to advertisers that sc2 is a lucrative advertising venture. Following this pattern allows for more organic prize moneys as well; instead of pegging a prize money in hopes of overshadowing a competitor (like the GSL does with BW) and being forced into ridiculous payouts, prize moneys will be competitive as each tournament competes with one another. This will allow accurate representation of the demand of both players and viewers alike. The current GSL prize system is ridiculous simply because it does not match the current demand for sc2. If one day SC2 garners such an explosive amount of competitive and spectator interest that an 80,000 dollar prize is necessary, then so be it. But that's not where the demand is right now.
So in short, stay West young gamer and work tirelessly to contribute and improve the competitive scene there. The GSL, unless it moves locations or drastically changes its business strategies, isn't going to last all that long. Remember that even in these formative stages of the Western Competitive Scene, even if there's no guarantee that a professional western league may happen, that you're always on stage for the advertisers. The advertisers are the key: if a proleague is to happen, they are the ones that will finance it, so try to not make a dick of yourselves in front of the corporate world.
(Someday I'm going to make a super long post that fully fleshes out my theory of Tournament Prize Money and its relationship with spectator demand. One part of the theory that consistently shows itself in the GSL is how artifically high prize moneys encourage participants to "game" the system by attracting money-hungry players and playstyles)
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That's the way it is right now because no other company or anything has stepped up to rival what GOM can do. I think it will be a while before we see other tournaments come close to rivaling the GSL, but I think it will happen eventually. In my opinion it's too early to come to conclusions about this. Certainly Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 at this moment, but with the strength of a lot of foreign players I think it may not be the 'only' place to go to prove yourself as SC2's legacy continues. Seems like BW is really only in Korea as far as the best-of-the-best goes, but I think Starcraft 2 will be a more international game as we advance into year 2 and beyond.
But no one really knows, we'll just have to see.
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ok so you are saying that the best hockey players can only come from the NHL?
Obviously the best players are playing the GSL (biggest tournament in the world), so what?
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10387 Posts
On February 01 2011 03:29 NearPerfection wrote:
I think your counting chicks before they hatch. Just because Koreans dominated Sc1 doesn't mean they will dominate Sc2. Using Wc3 as an example Grubby was considered the best in europe and Moon was considered the best in korea and even tho for much of 2004-2007 they didn't compete in eachothers leagues they were both still considered "the best". That aside, there is still a very huge room for improvement as far as sponsorships and financing so far as NA esports is concerned. But it definately as improved by a huge amount with several NA pro teams and MLG.
in regards to Koreans not dominating WC3, that's only because WC3's proscene in Korea was crippled quite early on by a map scandal and some charismatic players leaving the Korean scene (and then the money left WC3 in Korea lol). Would've been interesting to have seen a flourishing Korean WC3 scene if it those things didn't happen.
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On February 01 2011 10:01 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once. The core question is what is the purpose of a team. For him the answer to that is to support the players, to dominate other teams and to earn enough status to be recognized widely. GSL arguably is the best stage to compete in in order to gain that. Because it has the most solid structure, consistency, price money, production value, best athletes and toughest competition. Your answer seems to be that the primary goal of a team is to make money. I strongly disagree with that, though to each their own. You could make the argument that going for Korea isn't effective, because your chances of placing high are not as good as in other venues. When you do that though you are admitting that GSL is more competitive than what your team can handle, that your team is weak sauce and you also cripple your own potential. Who wants to follow and cheer for a team which doesn't give its best and doesn't even believe in themselves. That's not the spirit of competition. It has a pragmatic aspect, but also one that is shooting yourself in the foot. Chill and I have different definition of what it means to be a team. I think this is where the root of our disagreement lies. He looks at it more of an entrepreneur and business perspective, while I see a team as a supporting unit that mainly exist for the players. I don't see teams as profit driven, but led by team spirit and camaraderie. Teams exist for fame, glory, and prestige. If money comes as a result of fame and glory, all the better .
Until you realize that sponsors aren't in it for glory, you're not going to understand the issues at hand at all.
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I kinda get the feeling that the OP has. I see all these foreigners get tournament wins but I still doubt how good they are compared to the koreans. I feel like the people outside Korea is second tier compared to Koreans who seem to be first tier in skill.
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edit- replied to wrong post
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On February 01 2011 10:17 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 10:01 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:
[quote]
Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once. The core question is what is the purpose of a team. For him the answer to that is to support the players, to dominate other teams and to earn enough status to be recognized widely. GSL arguably is the best stage to compete in in order to gain that. Because it has the most solid structure, consistency, price money, production value, best athletes and toughest competition. Your answer seems to be that the primary goal of a team is to make money. I strongly disagree with that, though to each their own. You could make the argument that going for Korea isn't effective, because your chances of placing high are not as good as in other venues. When you do that though you are admitting that GSL is more competitive than what your team can handle, that your team is weak sauce and you also cripple your own potential. Who wants to follow and cheer for a team which doesn't give its best and doesn't even believe in themselves. That's not the spirit of competition. It has a pragmatic aspect, but also one that is shooting yourself in the foot. Chill and I have different definition of what it means to be a team. I think this is where the root of our disagreement lies. He looks at it more of an entrepreneur and business perspective, while I see a team as a supporting unit that mainly exist for the players. I don't see teams as profit driven, but led by team spirit and camaraderie. Teams exist for fame, glory, and prestige. If money comes as a result of fame and glory, all the better . Until you realize that sponsors aren't in it for glory, you're not going to understand the issues at hand at all.
Of course not. Sponsors have different motives and incentives. I've detailed in previous posts throughout this thread regarding exposure for the sponsors.
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Money wise, it's arguable that a pro could earn more by playing in Europe or NA league.
However, there are 2 things that Korea surpasses anyother places in the world - infrastructure (training & teams) and sponsorship. (skipping fame/skill part, since that's obvious)
Korean players are better simply because they train more hours & effectively than the foreigners.
They have team houses where they train together for 8-10 hours a day.
Training oversees from Korea, it'll be very difficult if not impossible that match such degree of efficacy.
and sponsorship is what makes such infrastructure possible to establish.
Until those 2 elements get established here in NA or in Europe, Korea will continue to be the 'pinnicle' of SC2.
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A good example of the OP's point about fame could possibly be White Ra and MC.
White Ra is winning stuff since beta, he's in tons of tournaments gets tons of exposure. MC shows up and performs well in 1 GSL and takes the finals, and he's revered as the best Protoss in the world.
Whether teams want to throw money at their players for hoping to achieve this fame is another thing altogether.
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On February 01 2011 10:17 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 10:01 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:
[quote]
Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once. The core question is what is the purpose of a team. For him the answer to that is to support the players, to dominate other teams and to earn enough status to be recognized widely. GSL arguably is the best stage to compete in in order to gain that. Because it has the most solid structure, consistency, price money, production value, best athletes and toughest competition. Your answer seems to be that the primary goal of a team is to make money. I strongly disagree with that, though to each their own. You could make the argument that going for Korea isn't effective, because your chances of placing high are not as good as in other venues. When you do that though you are admitting that GSL is more competitive than what your team can handle, that your team is weak sauce and you also cripple your own potential. Who wants to follow and cheer for a team which doesn't give its best and doesn't even believe in themselves. That's not the spirit of competition. It has a pragmatic aspect, but also one that is shooting yourself in the foot. Chill and I have different definition of what it means to be a team. I think this is where the root of our disagreement lies. He looks at it more of an entrepreneur and business perspective, while I see a team as a supporting unit that mainly exist for the players. I don't see teams as profit driven, but led by team spirit and camaraderie. Teams exist for fame, glory, and prestige. If money comes as a result of fame and glory, all the better . Until you realize that sponsors aren't in it for glory, you're not going to understand the issues at hand at all.
You are missing the argument. Please follow the thread more carefully. Chill explicitly stated that there is a difference between what the team wants and what the sponsor wants, and argued that it is the team that doesn't necessarily want to go to Korea, not the sponsors.
For reference (but please read the entire argument, not just this quote):
On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community.
Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money.
@ptbl: I know. I'd like to hear it in his own words and including reasoning of why that makes more sense than other understandings of "team".
Right now I don't see his assumed understanding of team as useful. He could just call it company instead. Companies don't compete in sports. Teams do.
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On February 01 2011 06:57 Valhalla44 wrote:
IDK what is with this story about koreans would be ripping through EU/NA tours. I think on dreamhack two koreans came to play and one guy didnt even came of the groups and the other one was 4th(not sure). I think it was oGs Inca and oGs Top.So dont say around that koreans would dominate everyone.And take comparsion how Jinro isnt very good at matches vs EU/NA players as he is at GSL.
Those arent even the best Korean players either, and they didn't even have time to practice against the European style of starcraft, so thats like going without the knowledge of what's it gonna be like, foreigners try that at GSL qualifiers and don't even make it out of the qualifiers. Imagine if MVP went to Dreamhack (in his present state).
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On February 01 2011 10:02 Zechs wrote:
I think Starcraft players and fans fetishise Korean way, wayyyyyyy too much.
Having an entire sport based in just one country is not healthy and if every good player moves to Korea it will be a massive setback for western esports. Don't get me wrong, GSL is a great league, but it is not the be-all end-all of Starcraft II, let alone esports.
Maybe people have this Korea fetish because they don't follow other esports games and don't see that they work in the West, i don't know. But every other non-BW esports game has had, or still has, a solid scene outside of Korea and SC2 is the same. GSL is surely the big kahuna right now but there are other tournaments which aren't so far behind, and there will be more in future.
SC2 will really have 'made it' imo (i know that sounds ridiculous but i'm tired and can't think of a better way to phrase it right now) when Koreans come over here to play in tournaments as well. That represents a much healthier sport than the brain-drain that is currently the trend.
Esports doesn't exist outside of Korea. You can't turn on the TV and see people playing video games anywhere else outside of Korea. For 10 years they have dominated it unopposed. Since Draco, only Idra made it to Progamer status and he didn't even win a courage tournament to do so. They have a monopoly on Esports that makes the Canadian stranglehold on Hockey look like a mom and pop operation. Do Swedish fan-girls flock in the hundreds for Naniwa? Does WhiteRa appear on commercials for Ukrainian TV? When Idra plays Nony do they get one million viewers? GSL is the pinnacle of SC2 Esports and it's not up for debate.
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On February 01 2011 10:25 LuciferSC wrote:
Money wise, it's arguable that a pro could earn more by playing in Europe or NA league.
However, there are 2 things that Korea surpasses anyother places in the world - infrastructure (training & teams) and sponsorship. (skipping fame/skill part, since that's obvious)
Ignoring the second half of your post because I dont particularly agree with it but.........
I think this is a good point, I mean take NaVi for example, one of the best CS teams in the world, who were they 2 years ago? a bunch of decent CS players from a couple of teams but then they formed a new team and moved into a training house for a year, and boom 200k prize money and the NaVi reign of 2010.
It doesn't matter where you are, playing in a team house environment will make you a better player. I don't understand why sponsors / teams are so concentrated on Korea when its so hit or miss, surely you'd want to at least get your guys good enough to move up to "the next level" if you want to call it that rather than pay a massive amount to set up in a different country.
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On February 01 2011 10:42 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 10:02 Zechs wrote:
I think Starcraft players and fans fetishise Korean way, wayyyyyyy too much.
Having an entire sport based in just one country is not healthy and if every good player moves to Korea it will be a massive setback for western esports. Don't get me wrong, GSL is a great league, but it is not the be-all end-all of Starcraft II, let alone esports.
Maybe people have this Korea fetish because they don't follow other esports games and don't see that they work in the West, i don't know. But every other non-BW esports game has had, or still has, a solid scene outside of Korea and SC2 is the same. GSL is surely the big kahuna right now but there are other tournaments which aren't so far behind, and there will be more in future.
SC2 will really have 'made it' imo (i know that sounds ridiculous but i'm tired and can't think of a better way to phrase it right now) when Koreans come over here to play in tournaments as well. That represents a much healthier sport than the brain-drain that is currently the trend. Esports doesn't exist outside of Korea. You can't turn on the TV and see people playing video games anywhere else outside of Korea. For 10 years they have dominated it unopposed. Since Draco, only Idra made it to Progamer status and he didn't even win a courage tournament to do so. They have a monopoly on Esports that makes the Canadian stranglehold on Hockey look like a mom and pop operation. Do Swedish fan-girls flock in the hundreds for Naniwa? Does WhiteRa appear on commercials for Ukrainian TV? When Idra plays Nony do they get one million viewers? GSL is the pinnacle of SC2 Esports and it's not up for debate.
Nine pages of said debate clearly state otherwise. Your logic is so fatally flawed. Is rugby "not a sport" because it doesn't get the same viewership as football? Is NFL "not a sport" because it doesn't get the same viewership as football? I'm not arguing that GSL is not the pinnacle of SC - it clearly is - but you've missed my point entirely. GSL being put on such a pedestal is unhealthy for SC2's development. The whole 'do it in Korea' thing is equally unhealthy for a game that is trying to develop as a worldwide esport.
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Putting aside the "whats best for the development of e-sports" debate, I do agree with the OP that only the best can come from/grow develop in Korea...
People ask why, and it's simply, in my opinion due to the ability to practice/play with other people in person who you can talk to about strategies and have practice with you for the majority of hours in a day.
This is simply not possible in the EU/US until teams get serious and start setting up non-Korean houses to practice in. Of course there are online practice partners, and people to chat with about strategy all over the place, but surely nothing beats living/spending a lot of time with other top level players to bounce ideas off and get immediate knowledgeable feedback...
Just wanted to put that out there for people who keep asking "why?" for sure there might be more money, or more to the point, more easily made money by staying in EU/US, but to be the best (as the thread title suggests) I agree that you need to be in Korea.
Until a US/EU player goes to Korea and dominates the GSL, or at the very least gets in to Code S in the first season and then has a positive result, I can't see my opinion changing.
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On February 01 2011 10:53 Zechs wrote:Is NFL "not a sport" because it doesn't get the same viewership as football?
I see what you did there. 
I agree that SC2 doesn't have to be popular to be considered a sport/e-sport. But there's no money where there's no popularity. Until SC2 grows a bit larger in the western world, GSL simply is the ultimate SC2 tournament.
A GSL title is worth 2 or 3 MLG titles in my eyes, simply because of the huge production values, huge viewership, huge prize pool, and the huge amount of games played in each GSL tournament. Every GSL establishes more and more of a continuous "story" and we can follow our favorite pro's through each tournament. I really like the way Gom did the A-class/S-class up and down system. It brings a lot of drama and makes the tournament so much more interesting as we watch the rising pros fight their way to the top while the guys on top are fighting to stay where they are.
But maybe MLG will follow the same path. We only got a tiny taste of MLG toward the end of last year, and I think a full circuit with SC2 more balanced and mature this year will really bring out the foreigner scene.
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iirc kiwikaki was or is in korea.
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As it was in Brood War it remains in StarCraft 2, while it is not correct that specifically Korean players are always the best and unbeatable no matter what, it is true that Korea in general has a culture very conducive to becoming the best one can at StarCraft 2 and many other video games. From the massive fan base of massively varied ages, and male and female alike, to the huge prize pools in fully sponsored evens such GSL or Gisado, to the constant availability of small local tournaments (that we on TL.net probably never even hear about), to the ability to practice at any time of the day with highly skilled player the environment just works. While very skilled players can come out of training areas outside of Korea it is not until they get to Korea that they can reach their full potential, because no where else can one have such a highly focused environment specifically on gaming.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 01 2011 11:14 skipgamer wrote:
Putting aside the "whats best for the development of e-sports" debate, I do agree with the OP that only the best can come from/grow develop in Korea...
People ask why, and it's simply, in my opinion due to the ability to practice/play with other people in person who you can talk to about strategies and have practice with you for the majority of hours in a day.
This is simply not possible in the EU/US until teams get serious and start setting up non-Korean houses to practice in. Of course there are online practice partners, and people to chat with about strategy all over the place, but surely nothing beats living/spending a lot of time with other top level players to bounce ideas off and get immediate knowledgeable feedback...
Just wanted to put that out there for people who keep asking "why?" for sure there might be more money, or more to the point, more easily made money by staying in EU/US, but to be the best (as the thread title suggests) I agree that you need to be in Korea.
Until a US/EU player goes to Korea and dominates the GSL, or at the very least gets in to Code S in the first season and then has a positive result, I can't see my opinion changing.
Well said, and echoes my opinion fully. If you want to become the best player, you have to travel to Korea and practice the Korean methods (training with team mates in a training house for large amount of hours per day). We can already see the transformation this made on Jinro, as well as HuK (has become a beast on the ladder at least). It isn't to say that the gamers aren't as inherently skilled from other parts of the world, but if you read interviews, they don't even practice half as much and generally have their interests more spread, rather than focusing on competitive 1v1 (lots of Western gamers cast, coach, attend college/university, and work). If you want to become competitive with the top Korean pros (+Jinro/Idra) then you have to immerse yourself in the game and the only place to do that currently is in Korea and participating in GSL and Korean ladder.
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I agree with OP.
The OP is talking about the best sc2 player. Not the most paid or whatever, but the best and this would seem to be true. I mean the korean sc2 teams practice all day long and have a huge challenging tournament every 1.5 months. Currently in NA and EU we aren't seeing that so it would seem natural to assume that the best sc2 players will be in Korea.
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*face palm*
Ok look you say that the best players play in Korea and in the GSL so far so good, so then why is WhiteRa considered one of the best players of all time and has never played a match in the GSL?, I know he could go there, but still if he doesn't go he would still be considered one of the best players ever, still also Liquid`Tyler has never played in the GSL and he is Liquid`Tyler, also EGIncontrol he has not played GSL and he is a beast!!,
Each of these players are AWESOME!! and believe me I bet you some of the best European players can beat the SH*T out of some of the best Koreans in GSL
The best players are not exactly in the GSL, -.-
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It's all about the money.
MLG became the highest tournament cause they has more prize money.
If north pole want to host a tournament and the prize are triple of what GSL has. I bet people will start saying North Pole are the heart of Starcraft, every player should go to North Pole.
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I'm sure there are plenty of online tournaments with cash prizes in Korea, you just have to speak Korean to know it and there is a small problem with that Specially if you new in a non-english speaking country.
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On February 01 2011 10:53 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 10:42 Fraidnot wrote:On February 01 2011 10:02 Zechs wrote:
I think Starcraft players and fans fetishise Korean way, wayyyyyyy too much.
Having an entire sport based in just one country is not healthy and if every good player moves to Korea it will be a massive setback for western esports. Don't get me wrong, GSL is a great league, but it is not the be-all end-all of Starcraft II, let alone esports.
Maybe people have this Korea fetish because they don't follow other esports games and don't see that they work in the West, i don't know. But every other non-BW esports game has had, or still has, a solid scene outside of Korea and SC2 is the same. GSL is surely the big kahuna right now but there are other tournaments which aren't so far behind, and there will be more in future.
SC2 will really have 'made it' imo (i know that sounds ridiculous but i'm tired and can't think of a better way to phrase it right now) when Koreans come over here to play in tournaments as well. That represents a much healthier sport than the brain-drain that is currently the trend. Esports doesn't exist outside of Korea. You can't turn on the TV and see people playing video games anywhere else outside of Korea. For 10 years they have dominated it unopposed. Since Draco, only Idra made it to Progamer status and he didn't even win a courage tournament to do so. They have a monopoly on Esports that makes the Canadian stranglehold on Hockey look like a mom and pop operation. Do Swedish fan-girls flock in the hundreds for Naniwa? Does WhiteRa appear on commercials for Ukrainian TV? When Idra plays Nony do they get one million viewers? GSL is the pinnacle of SC2 Esports and it's not up for debate. Nine pages of said debate clearly state otherwise. Your logic is so fatally flawed. Is rugby "not a sport" because it doesn't get the same viewership as football? Is NFL "not a sport" because it doesn't get the same viewership as football? I'm not arguing that GSL is not the pinnacle of SC - it clearly is - but you've missed my point entirely. GSL being put on such a pedestal is unhealthy for SC2's development. The whole 'do it in Korea' thing is equally unhealthy for a game that is trying to develop as a worldwide esport.
Wow, I don't know where to start with this. I was trying to point out that this "fetish" for Korean Starcraft is justified since the Korea scene is so good. And 9 pages of discussion on why players should or shouldn't go to Korea doesn't disprove that GSL is unarguably the best tournament. (you even agree on this with me later in your post)
We're not comparing different sports, we're comparing different starcraft scenes/leagues. If anything the comparison you could make would be between NFL and BAFA. In America everyone watches NFL games, in England nobody(figuratively speaking) watches BAFA games. Do you get how that relates to Esports and GSL? Doing things in Korea isn't harmful at all for the scene, for an example let me point out Dirk Nowitzki. Dirk Nowitzki went from Germany to America to play Basketball, and because of his success and popularity the German Basketball scene has grown tremendously the same thing could be said of Yao Ming and China. Jinro playing in GSL can only increase the popularity of SC2 in Sweden.
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Sorry but foreigners don't like to all-in [by moving to Korea, although there is small chance they can recover if they revert to macro] but instead like to macro and make more money [at home].
Anyways ofc the GSL players are great but unless this isn't what you're saying, you don't have to be in the GSL to be the best player...
but yes ofc the best players should move there but money is the decider =O
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I couldnt disagree more with the OP for a lot of reasons:
1. There is no way o determine "the best" in Starcraft when you can have different styles of tournaments. Thats like trying to compare apples and oranges to figure out which is better.
2. As was stated on Weapon of Choice last sunday: Why should pros move to Korea for a SMALL chance to win the GSL (which takes a long time for one tournament), when they could compete in many more tournaments and win those for more profit? White-Ra won a few tournaments recently ... why should he go to Korea?
All in all the OP sounds too much like "more money equals better tournament", but januarys GSL finals showed pretty boring and one-sided matches. Watching TLO play random in the TSL qualifier was far more entertaining. The goal of a tournament is to entertain the viewers or streaming it would be pointless.
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On February 01 2011 12:08 TemplarCo. wrote:
also EGIncontrol he has not played GSL and he is a beast!!,
Each of these players are AWESOME!! and believe me I bet you some of the best European players can beat the SH*T out of some of the best Koreans in GSL
The best players are not exactly in the GSL, -.-
I take you didn't read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=169225
I'm pretty sure best Koreans like MVP will walk through EU/NA tournaments.
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On February 01 2011 12:13 Rabiator wrote:
I couldnt disagree more with the OP for a lot of reasons:
1. There is no way o determine "the best" in Starcraft when you can have different styles of tournaments. Thats like trying to compare apples and oranges to figure out which is better.
2. As was stated on Weapon of Choice last sunday: Why should pros move to Korea for a SMALL chance to win the GSL (which takes a long time for one tournament), when they could compete in many more tournaments and win those for more profit? White-Ra won a few tournaments recently ... why should he go to Korea?
All in all the OP sounds too much like "more money equals better tournament", but januarys GSL finals showed pretty boring and one-sided matches. Watching TLO play random in the TSL qualifier was far more entertaining. The goal of a tournament is to entertain the viewers or streaming it would be pointless.
1. lol, No! A tournament is a tournament, single or double elimination doesn't matter, you can still compare them because they are both still tournaments. comparing them with Apples and oranges makes no sense at all since they are very different, while different tournament styles are still very similar. Unless you're comparing different types of Apples and different types of oranges, in either case it's still wrong.
2... because he could win GSL... obviously.
Trying making a tournament with 0 prize pool... see if TLO shows up for that....
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On February 01 2011 12:13 Rabiator wrote:
I couldnt disagree more with the OP for a lot of reasons:
1. There is no way o determine "the best" in Starcraft when you can have different styles of tournaments. Thats like trying to compare apples and oranges to figure out which is better.
2. As was stated on Weapon of Choice last sunday: Why should pros move to Korea for a SMALL chance to win the GSL (which takes a long time for one tournament), when they could compete in many more tournaments and win those for more profit? White-Ra won a few tournaments recently ... why should he go to Korea?
All in all the OP sounds too much like "more money equals better tournament", but januarys GSL finals showed pretty boring and one-sided matches. Watching TLO play random in the TSL qualifier was far more entertaining. The goal of a tournament is to entertain the viewers or streaming it would be pointless.
Some fans will come watch games if their favorite player is playing, regardless of the entertainment value/length.
I do actually think you could determine a "best" player, or atleast most consistent. The Bo3/Bo5/Bo7 format does not express this. If you did a Bo3 against every single opponent in the GSL Code S (For example), and take the person with the most wins, then you should be able to determine the top player in the tournament. Any player can take a games off of someone better (Not to knock him, but NexLiveForever vs. Leeonock was a prime example of this) and move ahead in the Tournament. Thats why losers brackets exist.
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I don't know if it's been said yet, but the WCG couldn't come any sooner. Then we'll see whether the OP is right or not.
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On February 01 2011 12:13 Rabiator wrote:
I couldnt disagree more with the OP for a lot of reasons:
1. There is no way o determine "the best" in Starcraft when you can have different styles of tournaments. Thats like trying to compare apples and oranges to figure out which is better.
2. As was stated on Weapon of Choice last sunday: Why should pros move to Korea for a SMALL chance to win the GSL (which takes a long time for one tournament), when they could compete in many more tournaments and win those for more profit? White-Ra won a few tournaments recently ... why should he go to Korea?
All in all the OP sounds too much like "more money equals better tournament", but januarys GSL finals showed pretty boring and one-sided matches. Watching TLO play random in the TSL qualifier was far more entertaining. The goal of a tournament is to entertain the viewers or streaming it would be pointless.
Regarding white-ra to GSL, I think its not just the money, Korea presents a new challenge for him. White-ra has already won everything in Europe, so Korea seems like the next obvious choice. Its interesting to note that the past 3 MLG winner have all moved to Korea because they know that they already have won the biggest tournament in north America and wants a bigger challenge.
There is still a big gap in terms of status between GSL and other tournaments, Naarma won DreamHack the largest non korean tournament to date, but most of the TLers sees him as a very good terran, but while neither Jinro nor Idra have come close to winning the GSL, just by reaching the latter knock out stage earned them the status of Legends for the non Korean scene.
Side note, I really hope TLO qualifies for TSL and be an awesome random!
Edit: To answer OP, I dont think that the best players come from GSL but GSL is the best place for a non korean top progamer to gain additional skills, fame and also cash.
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On February 01 2011 12:32 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 12:13 Rabiator wrote:
I couldnt disagree more with the OP for a lot of reasons:
1. There is no way o determine "the best" in Starcraft when you can have different styles of tournaments. Thats like trying to compare apples and oranges to figure out which is better.
2. As was stated on Weapon of Choice last sunday: Why should pros move to Korea for a SMALL chance to win the GSL (which takes a long time for one tournament), when they could compete in many more tournaments and win those for more profit? White-Ra won a few tournaments recently ... why should he go to Korea?
All in all the OP sounds too much like "more money equals better tournament", but januarys GSL finals showed pretty boring and one-sided matches. Watching TLO play random in the TSL qualifier was far more entertaining. The goal of a tournament is to entertain the viewers or streaming it would be pointless. 1. lol, No! A tournament is a tournament, single or double elimination doesn't matter, you can still compare them because they are both still tournaments. comparing them with Apples and oranges makes no sense at all since they are very different, while different tournament styles are still very similar. Unless you're comparing different types of Apples and different types of oranges, in either case it's still wrong. 2... because he could win GSL... obviously. Trying making a tournament with 0 prize pool... see if TLO shows up for that....
1. So a tournament which takes a month is the same as one which is played in one day? In one you can prepare for your opponent for days and practice and in the other you play hours non stop. Sure they are "the same" if you only look at the brackets, but compare how the players feel while participating.
2. Rofl ... and how many other tournaments could be won (with more exposure for sponsors as the example of White-Ra shows)?
On February 01 2011 12:53 Spacekyod wrote:
I don't know if it's been said yet, but the WCG couldn't come any sooner. Then we'll see whether the OP is right or not.
Actually not ... because "the best" requires a significant number of samples to determine. The WCG is just one tournament and you need a few more samples to really determine that.
On February 01 2011 12:35 DreamSailor wrote:
I do actually think you could determine a "best" player, or atleast most consistent. The Bo3/Bo5/Bo7 format does not express this. If you did a Bo3 against every single opponent in the GSL Code S (For example), and take the person with the most wins, then you should be able to determine the top player in the tournament. Any player can take a games off of someone better (Not to knock him, but NexLiveForever vs. Leeonock was a prime example of this) and move ahead in the Tournament. Thats why losers brackets exist.
There is also the difference in tournament styles to consider ... "1 match per day and days before that to prepare" (GSL style) or the "play for hours without major breaks" (online tournament style) types to consider. If you have days to prepare for your opponent it is obvious that the game is going to be different from one you do after having played six hours already.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
I think the OP is over zealous with the GSL.
Reading the comments above (from page 1-10), I see fair points from everyone
Essentially it boils down to this:
- Western Pros at the moment can earn more money with a higher reward/risk in their own countries (NA/EU/SEA).
- You don't have to go to the GSL to be recognised in the gaming community (i.e WhiteRa)
However
IF you want to prove to yourself and to the world, that YOU ARE THE BEST at SCII, then go to GSL and fight it out. The GSL is currently the hardest competition, just as your average OSL is harder than any foreign SCBW competition.
If you just want a challenge, to gauge your skill level against a bigger variety of opponents, then the GSL will also do that for you.
IF you're totally pro and smash up the GSL, then money will be a bonus for you as well, on top of the recognition as one of the best in the world (e.g. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork atm in BW)
Kthanks all!
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If you compete in Korea (GSL) and do go you are considered the top.
However SC2 is still very new, and there are other ways to be recognized without even entering Korea. Winning WCG, ESWC and several other big international events which will attract Koreans can get you a similar status. However for now GSL is the way to go. Hope too see more foreign presence there soon :D
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On February 01 2011 12:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 12:53 Spacekyod wrote:
I don't know if it's been said yet, but the WCG couldn't come any sooner. Then we'll see whether the OP is right or not. Actually not ... because "the best" requires a significant number of samples to determine. The WCG is just one tournament and you need a few more samples to really determine that.
I don't see how you can disregard it so easily. It's the best of the best from each country battling it out in group play and then in series style matchups. If Koreans don't even get out of the group stages or if they get 3-0'd what does that say to you about the GSL (although it is my belief that it's a GIGANTIC "If")? I doubt people would still be trying to argue that only the best players could come from the GSL.
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maybe a better idea.. im just throwing this out there is to encourage more e-sports recognition in.... OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD?! gasp.
I think having mroe large scale tournaments in North American and Europe will encourage players like ourselves to strive towards achievable goals. I mean aside from the cost of going to Korea- most ppl wouldnt want to give up their lives and families. Most ppl who are at the top of their profession can get the majority of their training etc on the same continent at their home, lets encourage more GSL type games near home and thus encourage more pros and more players. Which would make the Koreans less elite, which would make for less celebrbity type bullshit like money and fame.
it all makes sense and if it doesnt you need to get high.
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On February 01 2011 12:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 12:32 Fraidnot wrote:On February 01 2011 12:13 Rabiator wrote:
I couldnt disagree more with the OP for a lot of reasons:
1. There is no way o determine "the best" in Starcraft when you can have different styles of tournaments. Thats like trying to compare apples and oranges to figure out which is better.
2. As was stated on Weapon of Choice last sunday: Why should pros move to Korea for a SMALL chance to win the GSL (which takes a long time for one tournament), when they could compete in many more tournaments and win those for more profit? White-Ra won a few tournaments recently ... why should he go to Korea?
All in all the OP sounds too much like "more money equals better tournament", but januarys GSL finals showed pretty boring and one-sided matches. Watching TLO play random in the TSL qualifier was far more entertaining. The goal of a tournament is to entertain the viewers or streaming it would be pointless. 1. lol, No! A tournament is a tournament, single or double elimination doesn't matter, you can still compare them because they are both still tournaments. comparing them with Apples and oranges makes no sense at all since they are very different, while different tournament styles are still very similar. Unless you're comparing different types of Apples and different types of oranges, in either case it's still wrong. 2... because he could win GSL... obviously. Trying making a tournament with 0 prize pool... see if TLO shows up for that.... 1. So a tournament which takes a month is the same as one which is played in one day? In one you can prepare for your opponent for days and practice and in the other you play hours non stop. Sure they are "the same" if you only look at the brackets, but compare how the players feel while participating. 2. Rofl ... and how many other tournaments could be won (with more exposure for sponsors as the example of White-Ra shows)?
1. How a player feels or how much time they have to prepare doesn't change the fact that it's still a tournament and the player who plays the best throughout it will win.
2. Yeah but if he doesn't go he can't win the GSL. Besides money isn't everything. if it was more celebrities would do porn.
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My imagination for GSL.....
-Last Day-
Final Round....Huk vs Anonymous (Player Wearing a Mask)
Announcer: Ladies and Gentlemen please welcome the Player Anonymous.........JAEDONG!!!!!!!!
Huk: .......:O...............
Game start:
Game 1: 6pool win Jaedong
Game 2: Baneling All In Trick Jaedong Win
Game 3: Drone RUSH :DDDDD
XD
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Unless SC2 adopts the BW team model (and accepting foreigners) I don't see moving to Korea a viable option. There's barely any money to be made even if you're in Code S (if you manage to stay at the bottom constantly).
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On February 01 2011 03:43 raf3776 wrote:
If teams do care about money than they wouldn't really wanna go to gsl. Now you have to make top 8 of code A JUST to have a chance of making it to code S, where you start making money. But thats a long and difficult task. Look how long it took jinro. Torch qualified once and he's been there from the start. White ra made more money last 2 weeks than any1 in code A
Edit: white ra is also revered and he's not in Korea for sc2
Is white-ra really "revered?" He might be respected, but I don't think he has reach that level of being an iconoclastic figure in sc2. Do you see people making fan arts, music videos, just go crazy over him? There might be some, but it's not at the lvl of Jinro, Idra, and TLO who spent time competing in the GSL.
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Couldn't agree with the OP any better.
Has nothing to do with money, GSL open seasons had more prize winnings than the OSL yet we consider OSL champions to be 10000000x more skilled than the GSL ones. The GSL qualifiers were no way as tough as those in the OSL, but definitely 1000x harder than other SC2 tournies, even Nada and Tester had fallen to the GSL qualifiers.
MVP was just an A teamer who went to ro36 in OSL yet he's like the feared Sithlord / Bonjwa of SC2 now.
It's a matter of time when the A teamers and S class progamers switch to SC2 to force the foreign players to retire and wait for Warcraft 4.
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On February 02 2011 02:09 ppshchik wrote:
It's a matter of time when the A teamers and S class progamers switch to SC2 to force the foreign players to retire and wait for Warcraft 4.
Won't happen.
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On February 02 2011 02:13 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 02:09 ppshchik wrote:
It's a matter of time when the A teamers and S class progamers switch to SC2 to force the foreign players to retire and wait for Warcraft 4.
Won't happen.
When the GSL map pools become less proned to all-in and cheeses I"m 100% sure that A teamers will switch over to SC2.
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On February 02 2011 02:13 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 02:09 ppshchik wrote:
It's a matter of time when the A teamers and S class progamers switch to SC2 to force the foreign players to retire and wait for Warcraft 4.
Won't happen.
We'll see... though with the easier mechanics of SC2 I feel that foreigners will be able to close the gap considerably when compared to BW.
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The moment when SanZenith or the like (read: the worst class S Korean) tears every single foreigner not in Korea apart is when I accept OP's argument.
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On February 01 2011 10:35 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 10:17 PJA wrote:On February 01 2011 10:01 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 09:05 enzym wrote:On February 01 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 07:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 07:04 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
More brand recognition means more people buying your products...
There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds. K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor. Here's how I would envision the exchange: Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL Sponsor: How much are we talking about here? Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities. Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months. Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it. Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%? Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it. In this scenario, the sponsor gets exposure and the team gets (?) Nothing? A cut of the GSL winnings? The hope of resigning the sponsor for more money? Ahhh, I see what you did there . Well, what is a team? A team consists of players and it's support staff. They would get monthly salaries that is paid by the sponsors. If you see a team as a business/enterprise, then one doesn't have to limit their revenue stream from one source. For example, they can partner with Justin.tv for a revenue streaming sharing agreement. Off of the top of my head, Root gaming has an agreement in place with Justin.tv. Or they could do something similar as EG by doing the Hyper Crew Pro tip series. Of course, any money earned from tournaments about 20% goes to the teams. Now we've come full circle because a team can do any of that while not sending a player to Korea. Which is exactly why it is not holding the team back from going to Korea. You have debased your own argument, as I understand it after reading through the thread once. The core question is what is the purpose of a team. For him the answer to that is to support the players, to dominate other teams and to earn enough status to be recognized widely. GSL arguably is the best stage to compete in in order to gain that. Because it has the most solid structure, consistency, price money, production value, best athletes and toughest competition. Your answer seems to be that the primary goal of a team is to make money. I strongly disagree with that, though to each their own. You could make the argument that going for Korea isn't effective, because your chances of placing high are not as good as in other venues. When you do that though you are admitting that GSL is more competitive than what your team can handle, that your team is weak sauce and you also cripple your own potential. Who wants to follow and cheer for a team which doesn't give its best and doesn't even believe in themselves. That's not the spirit of competition. It has a pragmatic aspect, but also one that is shooting yourself in the foot. Chill and I have different definition of what it means to be a team. I think this is where the root of our disagreement lies. He looks at it more of an entrepreneur and business perspective, while I see a team as a supporting unit that mainly exist for the players. I don't see teams as profit driven, but led by team spirit and camaraderie. Teams exist for fame, glory, and prestige. If money comes as a result of fame and glory, all the better . Until you realize that sponsors aren't in it for glory, you're not going to understand the issues at hand at all. You are missing the argument. Please follow the thread more carefully. Chill explicitly stated that there is a difference between what the team wants and what the sponsor wants, and argued that it is the team that doesn't necessarily want to go to Korea, not the sponsors. For reference (but please read the entire argument, not just this quote): Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:[quote] Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. @ptbl: I know. I'd like to hear it in his own words and including reasoning of why that makes more sense than other understandings of "team". Right now I don't see his assumed understanding of team as useful. He could just call it company instead. Companies don't compete in sports. Teams do.
You seriously have to be trolling me right now.
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On February 01 2011 03:20 ptbl wrote:
Team Liquid- They have sent 5 players (TLO, Huk, Jinro, Ret, and Haypro) to compete in the GSL. Moreover, they have partnered with oGs to have a team house. Is it coincidence that Team Liquid is revered and considered the best team in the world?
EG- They have Idra and have stated that they plan to have a team house in Korea sometime around February. EG and its player understand how it’s important to have a strong presence in the GSL.
If you have the desire to be one of the best, move to Korea and compete for the GSL.
TL has a team that is very engaged in the community. But what have they done. I find it funning how everyone needs to play the GSL, and the best team and the most revered team by your own words has 1 player that has done anything.
EG has talked about a house for quiet awhile...I'm not sure it will ever happen though. Its now Febuary, and right now is the time to send people over because that lets them get into korea get un jet lagged, get use to stuff, work on there game, and try to qualify. Basically EG is largely associated as idra at this time as the rest just play in NA tournaments. EG has almost no foreign presence.
The best team right now is not TL. And EG is basically riding one player by what your stating in this thread, the GSL is the be all end all.
Might want to rethink your post a little, before you fanboi it up a little more. There alot of good SC2 teams out there. Infact, I think TL would not do well against the teams competing in the team GSL. TL simply is not that deep at this time.
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Dignitas sent SeleCT there for season 3, but unfortunately he got knocked out of the quali's in the final round.
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or you could be like certain unnamed pro's that would rather win regional tournament and not play the best of the best.
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If you get far in the GSL, you're almost guaranteed fame. However, like any other person in the world, most players would opt for money rather than fame. Plus, it's just safer to stay in somewhere you know as opposed to risking a lot to move to a foreign country, just for a chance for fame and higher prize pool.
That said, GSL is probably far the most popular and well-known tournament. Some of the best players definitely reside there.
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EPT
