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On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:
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Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken.
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing.
More brand recognition means more people buying your products...
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Fact is the only reason we're able to see Jinro and the other Liquid members in Korea right now is thanks to TLAF(Matt is it?). If TL was an ordinary team with company sponsors this would never have been possible. I bet every team would like an super cool guy with piles of gold backing them up but they are a rare breed, it's naive and unrealistic to expect organizations to send their players there when the competition is so fierce and prize pool so small(unless you finish top4-8 code S).
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After reading through this thread, I have come to the conclusion that unless a player is guaranteed to reach Idra or Jinro level of success in the GSL, it's VERY difficult to justify the investment to send them over. Travelling to and staying in Korea for several months costs quite a bit of money, time, and a social life. Failing to qualify for the GSL makes this investment seem like a waste, even when given the opportunity to interact with the Korean scene.
Though the level of play in the GSL is very high, it is not the only source of high level play. In fact, I might go as far to say that the Korean scene is very much detached from the foreign scenes, to a degree that participation in Korea is not required to be a household name on TL.
Winning in GSL is nice, but unless a player is winning GSLs consistently, they are at risk of just becoming another high-level Korean player instead of a legend. GSL hasn't produced the SC2 version of BoxeR or NaDa yet, though I'm sure that will change in the coming months. It would be nice if a foreign player to win GSL, yet unless he win consistently, only foreigners will consider him to be a legend while the rest of the Korean scene just brushes him off as yet another one-time Starleague winner.
I would say that winning multiple foreign tournaments is way more viable than investing to win GSL. MLG, IEM, and Dreamhack have produced well-recognized names and entertaining games, the latter of which is a bigger basis for player fame than any Starleague victory.
Then again, the overall SC2 scene is still very young, and we still need time to see if the foreign scene has matured enough to be a viable alternative to the Korean scene, though it seems to be trending towards that case.
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On February 01 2011 06:13 Longshank wrote:
Fact is the only reason we're able to see Jinro and the other Liquid members in Korea right now is thanks to TLAF(Matt is it?). If TL was an ordinary team with company sponsors this would never have been possible. I bet every team would like an super cool guy with piles of gold backing them up but they are a rare breed, it's naive and unrealistic to expect organizations to send their players there when the competition is so fierce and prize pool so small(unless you finish top4-8 code S).
Well, prize pool aside, one can say that being able to play in GSL and in Code S is a good reward in and of itself.
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why does everyone think that we need to go to Korea? the GSL needs to come to us. Non Koreans know that the only way to make a decent living is moving to Korea, but its a pretty big commitment to move to a foreign country and trying to live there. GSL needs to expand to other shores and we would instantly see a rise in the quality of non korean players, simple as that.
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This posts just argues a bunch of stuff everyone already knows and over states some as"elite and revered status" No one is at that point yet really. Why wouldn't teams want to send their people to Korea? Due to production value it's a great way to plug sponsors. The other thing is North Americans are lazy and egotistical. They like to feel like they're amazing and they matter and rather sit back and do well in open online and lan tournys rather than go get destroyed by the Korean server. It really can't be only me that noticed it when you watch something like GSL than go and look at MLG or IEM Even tho they are so pretty amazing games sometimes. It almost feels like watching entry level code A at best. I think there is a HUGE gap between a good player on EU and NA and a good player on the Korean server and due to pride it's something alot of people won't admit.
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On February 01 2011 06:17 Project Psycho wrote:
why does everyone think that we need to go to Korea? the GSL needs to come to us. Non Koreans know that the only way to make a decent living is moving to Korea, but its a pretty big commitment to move to a foreign country and trying to live there. GSL needs to expand to other shores and we would instantly see a rise in the quality of non korean players, simple as that.
I think Qaatar talked a bit about that in his post:
On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. lol... Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on? On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money. For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it. Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
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Well it's pretty expensive to send guys out to Korea for ONE tournament. No offense to any of the teams that aren't sending people, but do you really think some of the guys on the smaller teams really have a legit shot at seriously competing at the GSL? I suppose there's an incredibly small chance one of them COULD get far, but is it worth sending them to Korea? You would need some pretty deep pockets...
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Whitera is considered a legend. I am willing to bet he can take on any korean and man handle him like he does with his current compatition. He has made more money in the past 2 weeks while staying at home with friends and family than even the winner of Code A and 98% of Code S. Granted it is true if you want the fame go to GSL and prove you are a badass. If you want the richs play more tournaments. And Korea only has one. So it really comes down to the players themselves. Do they want to make a living or be remembered
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If we look at how hard it was to even qualify for GSL 1-3 and how hard it was to stay in Code A for the foreigners that went there, I really can't come to any other conclusion than that the level in the GSL is the highest.
I am not saying that for instance the top 8 in the GSL are better than anybody else, because people perform quite differently over time. TSL_Rain did very well early on, know he has been knocked down to Code A. FruitDealer won the first tournament but hasn't been able to perform too well after that.
What I am trying to say is that if you took the top 16 of GSL January 2011 against the top 16 players from the rest of the world, I would be really surprised if the top 4 weren't from the GSL.
Types of play that I see done in for instance this fight between Whitera and TLO: http://sc2casts.com/cast2387-TLO-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-5-TL-Open-Finals I really can't see happening in the GSL. It would have been shut down by more aggressive styles of play, exloiting weaknesses.
Another thing I see in the GSL is that players prepare for matches figuring out their opponents. Watching IMMvp crush MarineKingPrime.WE wasn't a coincidence. He had studied his opponent and found his weakness and exploited it as much as it's possible. It's not something I have seen in the typical European tournaments. It might be because of the short timespan EU/US tournaments are played in that doesn't allow players to think between games. I remember seeing one where one of the players basically had been playing for 6-7 hours straight because he got into the loser's bracket very early and crushed everybody up to the final which he lost.
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On February 01 2011 06:25 HKarmY wrote:
I am willing to bet he can take on any korean and man handle him like he does with his current compatition.
This is debatable, in my opinion that's far from true.
He has made more money in the past 2 weeks while staying at home with friends and family than even the winner of Code A and 98% of Code S. Granted it is true if you want the fame go to GSL and prove you are a badass.
I agree.
If you want the richs play more tournaments. And Korea only has one.
Wrong.
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On February 01 2011 06:21 Neo.NEt wrote:
Well it's pretty expensive to send guys out to Korea for ONE tournament. No offense to any of the teams that aren't sending people, but do you really think some of the guys on the smaller teams really have a legit shot at seriously competing at the GSL? I suppose there's an incredibly small chance one of them COULD get far, but is it worth sending them to Korea? You would need some pretty deep pockets...
I was referring to the bigger teams. Smaller teams will work there way up. Just like how players work there way up from smaller tournaments to bigger tourneys and eventually attend offline events.
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On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money.
unless your name is Jinro, =)
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:11 xuanzue wrote:
if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
He may well have earnt the most, but I'm not sure it's by a huge amount. By my estimates Jinro has made close on $20k from his performances at the GSL and MLG Dallas, I'm not sure on money from any minor events he might have participated in (if any), it's roughly a 3month time window at any rate.
By contrast over a similar period I'd estimate Sjow and WhiteRa to have both made close on $16k by placing high at a number of middling sized events, while both Naama and BratOK have taken huge wins at big lans (15k dreamhack & 10k beeline respectively).
The GSL without a doubt has the best players in the world playing in it, but it's still too much of a high risk situation for a lot of players right now. If your team isn't in a position to help you set up in Korea then going is a sizeable investment for a very small window of opportunity, you might be one of the best players in the world but it's not like qualifying is going to be easy, and even then you don't start making good regular winnings unless you are placing high (talk of hypothetical salaries notwithstanding). With that in mind, it just looks like it makes more sense to compete regionally in easier to win events for the time being simply because it's easier for them to get a decent income,
(All numbers come from placings listed on liquipedia over the last 3 months or so)
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head.
Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status. Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products...
There's three groups here that you're confusing:
1. The player
2. The team
3. The sponsor
The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money.
So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500."
No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 NearPerfection wrote:
I think your counting chicks before they hatch. Just because Koreans dominated Sc1 doesn't mean they will dominate Sc2. Using Wc3 as an example Grubby was considered the best in europe and Moon was considered the best in korea and even tho for much of 2004-2007 they didn't compete in eachothers leagues they were both still considered "the best". That aside, there is still a very huge room for improvement as far as sponsorships and financing so far as NA esports is concerned. But it definately as improved by a huge amount with several NA pro teams and MLG.
Have you watched GSL at all?
Even the middle tier Koreans like Genius would dominate the Euro/NA scene.
White-Ra was right though - why would he move to another country when he could have a better shot at more money in Europe?
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i dont think its at that stage yet.
i think most people have linked this together:
if you want to make money playing football, you move to europe
if you want to make money playing basketball, you move to USA.
Starcraft is still at a level where staying in korea does not out-weigh the other benefits of staying local(depends on person+location).
Bigger prize pool is one but the main thing would be like having kespa system, salary paid players and not have to work their ass off + better living standards.
before "letting players compete at the highest level" comes "can we make money by sending these guys overseas"
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On February 01 2011 06:38 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:29 NearPerfection wrote:
I think your counting chicks before they hatch. Just because Koreans dominated Sc1 doesn't mean they will dominate Sc2. Using Wc3 as an example Grubby was considered the best in europe and Moon was considered the best in korea and even tho for much of 2004-2007 they didn't compete in eachothers leagues they were both still considered "the best". That aside, there is still a very huge room for improvement as far as sponsorships and financing so far as NA esports is concerned. But it definately as improved by a huge amount with several NA pro teams and MLG. Have you watched GSL at all? Even the middle tier Koreans like Genius would dominate the Euro/NA scene.
Umm Genius is not middle tier. He's widely considered to be a top 3 Protoss in the world and he's a solid S-class player (top 16).
Anyone been watching HuK's stream at all? I watched him roflstomp oGsMC.. and let me tell you.. there's no reason to assume that even tip top of the top Koreans would easily take foreigner tournaments. Time will tell as more foreigners begin to compete in the GSL with adequate practice time and facilities.
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You realise how players are funded through their teams? Sponsorship, sponsors sponsor teams to gain influence for their products.
GSL code S (the only one tourney which gives the fame/fortune you seem to be alluding to) is one tournament with a hellish qualifying system which takes a month each time you try (without talking about getting into code A to begin with).
GSL code S gives you 5 days of play containing each individual player per month if you make the finals AND is on at bad times for the Western playerbase AND makes you pay for VODs.
The cost for a sponsor to pay for flights to and lodgings in Korea is massive, the cost increases if you attempt to send them to other tournaments such as MLG and due to latency you can't play for any of the EU/US online tourneys which have free streams and VOD's generally. Also players can't qualify for the imo equally prestigious (to GSL) yearly IEM tourneys.
Why exactly should sponsors and teams shell out thousands of dollars to establish a base in Korea when its a complete risk, takes months to even qualify for the most prestigious league, isolates them from their Western fanbase whom watch them every week in the US/Euro events and all this for a tournament which actively reduces the amount of people who can watch it?
Oh I forgot, to gain "legendary status" all you have to do is place ro4 in a GSL twice and win one MLG? I admit Jinro is a great foreigner but I dislike the fact you're throwing around legendary like its going out of fasion.
Also I get that many of you are rabid Liquid fans and of course I love them but saying they are leagues ahead of other great foreigner teams like dignitas and mouz is ridiculous to me.
That said I'm a massive skeptic and believe the GSL is bombing in Korea and will never kick off so and that the foreign community should just concentrate on the Western community but w/e.
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On February 01 2011 06:35 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:10 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 06:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:54 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:27 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 05:21 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 05:02 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:57 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:49 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:
[quote]
Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community.
Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous." Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time. Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. He was friends with Tasteless and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM. K, I'll summarize it in a single sentence. If you want to be a big fish in a big pond and achieve greatness then go to Korea for the GSL; thus, teams should do everything in their power to help the players achieve this goal. I am not from Machinima. I hope this helps. I agree with the first half, the second half has no attempt at justification whatsoever. The second sentence is basically "Teams should make blind investments with no look at the return." You bring up a good point about the financial aspect in terms of risks and rewards. But, I think the big fish in a big pond applies to teams, too. Let's take Huk for example. He was on the team Millenium for a while then signed with Team Liquid because TL was able to offer the opportunity to go to Korea, so he sign with TL after his contract expired with Millenium. Even with Teams there are tiers. I'm saying that teams who send players to the GSL has more exposure, prestige, and recognition. This leads to better players wanting to join your team, this leading to more exposure for your sponsors. Yes, again, common sense. The part you fail to address over and over, which is the basis of your entire argument, is how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards? If I spend $5000 sending a player to Korea for 2 months and he gets a little recognition, how much of that will I see back? You make it seem like a dollar invested is two received. First, I will address your question of "how does that exposure translate into tangible rewards?" It depends how much monetary value you put on exposure, whether it's through viewers, media, or other types of platforms. Of course, it's up to the teams. How much reward was it when Jinro was a trending topic on twitter after his match against Idra where tens and tens of thousand of people followed the result? How much monetary value do you put on Husky mentioning you in his casts? Yes, those two things are worth next to nothing. More brand recognition means more people buying your products... There's three groups here that you're confusing: 1. The player 2. The team 3. The sponsor The team and the sponsor are not the same. So when you say "brand recognition means more people buying your products", that is the team investing money, and the sponsor getting money. So you're arguing, that when the contract is up between the sponsor and the team, that the team is going to go "Hey, remember that time Jinro was mentioned in a Husky cast? Now we want $2,000 / month instead of $1,500." No. Those two things are next to meaningless. Brand recognition isn't a one-time thing, it takes consistent results to stay in the forefront of people's minds.
K, I see where you are coming from. Though, If we applied your line of reasoning, Jinro wearing the TLAF shirt and appearing on gom tv has no value to the sponsor when it comes to exposure. Or in interviews where the player thanks the sponsor. I think there is some value in that to the sponsor.
Here's how I would envision the exchange:
Team: Our team has proved itself at this tournament and this tournament, I would like us to take it to another level and send some players to the GSL. Also, we lost 2 top notch players to another team because we couldn't guarantee them a trip to Korea for the GSL. If we want to continue our high level of play and continue to recruit top caliber lvl players, then it's important we have some funds that we can use to send players to the GSL
Sponsor: How much are we talking about here?
Team: GSL is providing free room, board, and utilities for those who want to compete in the GSL. We would have to cover travel, food, and basic amenities.
Sponsor: How long would the players stay in Korea
Team: It would be a long term investment of a minimum of 4 months.
Sponsor: I don't think we could fully fund the GSL trips, perhaps 50% of it.
Team: How about we sacrifice these two other tournaments and use the funds to pay for the other 50%?
Sponsor: I'm not oppose to it. Seeing how you guys are 100 percent behind it, I'd say we go for it.
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EPT
