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On February 01 2011 03:25 Leviance wrote:
It's mainly because of the high prize pool GSL offered.
If a regular tourney series in Europe/America offered 85000$ while there wasn't anything comparable in Korea for SC2 people would aim to play there. It's all about the money.
I'm sure money has something to do with it, but the strongest players are in Korea hence the biggest tournament. I heard from many of the pros and their ideas about top foreigners vs. top koreans' skills aren't very far apart, but the overall skills of Koreans are much higher than any other regions.
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On February 01 2011 04:15 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:08 Grummler wrote:
Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea. If Huk is one of the best, he would've made something by now like Jinro and Idra Sure S-class is hard, but achieving that status is what makes you good Not to say that Huk is a horrible player, but one of the best is an overstatement until he can prove it
HuK have had one chance to qualify for GSL and that was when he had just arrived.
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in terms of world-wide prestige GSL would be the best choice for you, but even then you have to wade through hundreds of talented players to even get noticed
i wouldnt say that it makes the BEST starcraft players, but it surely makes them the BEST known/recognized
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar.
Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that?
So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend?
Edit: I don't want to sound so pessismistic, but your advice has no tangible merit. It's "the best players have to dominate the best tournament to be legends." That should be pretty much common sense for anything.
Somehow you spin this into talking down at teams not willing to send players to Korea. There's a huge disconnect between the two statements.
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On February 01 2011 04:22 DreamSailor wrote:
GSL has huge winning potential, but its just potential. The competition is huge and it is rife with various rushes and cut throat tactics to try and win.
If I had the opportunity (And the skills to pay the bills) to live in Korea and compete in the GSL, I probably wouldn't take it. Theres too much to lose. I wouldn't be able to see my family, I'd be forced to live in a foreign and unfamiliar place, playing a game as a job, with the potential to make zero income. Prestige and fame will only get you so far.
I don't see many more going to Korea, and if EVERYONE goes to Korea it will just isolate the scene even more. There will be fewer local tourneys and everyone will be competing for the GSL's pot of gold.
This is why I think by foreign GSL players are more respected and revered. They are willing to move to another country, be far away from their family, and compete with the best. This is why they are able to achieve "elite," "legendary," and "creme of the crop" status.
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On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend?
Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken.
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You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken.
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head.
Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
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On February 01 2011 04:36 Fraidnot wrote:
You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win.
Well said, I'm sure most pro gamers do not go into the gaming business to make big money. Because as big as a GSL first prize is, a decent college degree and a job will equal that.
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this post is a joke right?....
Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations that they cant just say "i want to go to korea so i can be known!"
chill said it the best theres no logic involved in what your saying
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On February 01 2011 04:15 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:08 Grummler wrote:
Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea. If Huk is one of the best, he would've made something by now like Jinro and Idra Sure S-class is hard, but achieving that status is what makes you good Not to say that Huk is a horrible player, but one of the best is an overstatement until he can prove it
He had only one chance to get into code A. And besides that, you pretty much prove my point. We dont know how good huk is right now, because he had only one single chance to show his skills during THREE MONTH. And that was right after he arrived 3 month ago, most likely being nervous and tired. Since then, he was basically removed from the whole sc2 competitive scene. Thats a situation most foreigners dont want to be in.
Good for him that he finally got a code A spot. So all he has to do now, is get top8 and defeat a former code s player. So he can be code S for gsl 6. Thats in APRIL.
If anything wents wrong for huk: See you in may. Maybe. If you get another code A seed, and get top8, and defeat a former code S.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:39 WhoaDrugs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:36 Fraidnot wrote:
You can win as many MLGs or ESLs as you want, but at the end of the day GSL is the most prestiges tournament around and simply making it to the round of 16 is front page news. Yes money is an important factor, but really, do you know anybody who plays video games because it's an easy way to make money? Progamers play because they want to play the best players out there and win. Well said, I'm sure most pro gamers do not go into the gaming business to make big money. Because as big as a GSL first prize is, a decent college degree and a job will equal that.
But his point is that teams should fund the trip.
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It seems that people are more interested in money than competition. Why don't you go and smurf your way through gold league tournaments then? If you are not confdent in your skills, if you are afraid of getting destroyed by thr best players in the world, then your best bet might be to stay in NA / EU.
playing a game as a job
Preposterous !
So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend?
That sounds like a good piece of advice, I mean, who doesn't want to dominate Star Leagues? But that's not very realistic in my opinion. Why go to such extremes? There is a middle ground between getting destroyed in Code A qualifiers, and winning GSL finals 6 times in a row.
White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head.
Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
Not to downplay their achievements but to me they are just big fishes in a small pond.
Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations
This is off-topic. If team don't have money, and players have prior obligations, then they are not pro teams, and these players are not Progamers.
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On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too.
Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community.
Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
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I guess to the OP. MLG, IEM, dreamhack, etc... Big tourneys means nothing.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On February 01 2011 04:44 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:37 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 04:36 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 04:31 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:41 ptbl wrote:On February 01 2011 03:35 Chill wrote:
Why?
Simple risk/reward analysis says you shouldn't move to Korea if you want to make money. If you just want to make money, then sure you can compete in the smaller tournaments. But, you'll never be considered great compared to a foreigner competing in the GSL. Take Grrr for example. Even after all these years, he's still revered for winning a star league. Player's like Nony who competed in Korea is revered and has legendary status. I don't think people who don't go to korea will ever achieve anything similar. Yea, you'll never be a legend like Grrr... if you don't dominante star leagues for years... but who is going to do that? So your advice is go try to dominate star leagues for years and be a legend? Jinro didn't win GSL, but he already has achieved legendary status. What other non-GSL players have the fame that Jinro and Idra have? For christ sake, Jinro and Idra have their own nickname: Gorllia Terran, and the Gracken. White-Ra and Mondragon off the top of my head. Edit: Whoops, Nony too. Nony placed second in a Courage tournament in Korea. He actually went to Korea to compete. Same with Idra, ret, Nazgul, Elky, Rekrul, grrr, and I'm sure I'm missing people. Some haven't done well as others, but the fact that they went to korea and invested a significant time has gain them the respect and fame of the Starcraft community. Even the casters such as Artosis, lilsusie, and tasteless who moved to Korea to commentate have reach the elite status.
Can you summarize your position in one sentence please? I don't see how any of your comments tie together except "go get famous."
Also, are you from Machinima or did you just happen to be the OP for this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185880
lilsusie moved to Korea because her family is there and she got a job there. She was friends with Tasteless, already lived in Korea, and could speak Korean & English fluently so she joined GOM part time.
Artosis moved to Korea to work for IEG, the company that owned the ESTRO progaming team. His main tasks were to support ESTRO and their starcraft website scforall.com. He was friends with Tasteless, already lived in Korea, and could play SC2 at a high level so he joined GOM later.
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On February 01 2011 04:48 DrunkeN. wrote:
I guess to the OP. MLG, IEM, dreamhack, etc... Big tourneys means nothing.
I remember Lee Chen from MLG talking in the State of the Game Podcast. He said if you had a chance to go to the GSL over MLG, then you should do it. He said GSL is just on another level and this is coming from someone who works at MLG!
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Money > fame
i think somebody else stated that. You dont have to live in Korea and still be a reputable player in other countries and haul in cash at tourneys
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On February 01 2011 04:43 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +Teams dont have the money to send people to Korea, players have prior obligations This is off-topic. If team don't have money, and players have prior obligations, then they are not pro teams, and these players are not Progamers.
If you're working for a company and they offer you a promotion in another country yet you refuse because you have a wife and kids who go to school in the local area. Does that mean you're not a professional anymore? I don't understand your point.
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On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Show nested quote +Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money. Show nested quote +Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL. I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation. As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well? Show nested quote +Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul. We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated.
Uh, no.
Imagine the reverse; Koreans decided to have a new professional Basketball league, and did everything that is done in America: Camps, coaches, the works. Would they eventually become as good? Not on your life.
This is because of the AVERAGE skill level of players, not just some of the best in the world.
To make it onto a pro SC2 team in Korea, a player has dealt with tons more competition than they would ever encounter anywhere else.
To be as good as the Koreans, you gotta go over there, and play THEM.
Surely, you dont believe that Korea could produce their own Kobe Bryant, without that person ever playing Americans? Would you honesty consider that player one of the best?
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EPT
