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Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name
On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money.
Those who aspire to be at the elite level of Starcraft, but do not go to Korea will never be considered the best. They will never reach the status of being an iconoclastic figure, nor will they truly be great. They’ll just be good. If you don’t want to be just good, then go to Korea for the GSL.
I would argue that the exposure is more of us being proud that foreigners are being successful in such a Korean heavy situation. It's like when the oGs guys went to Dreamhack. Everyone was watching them extra close to see how they would do in a foreign situation.
As far as pros who are truly great without going to Korea, the obvious person to mention is Duckload/WhiteRA. He has made a killing tearing through tons of smaller tournament, gaining arguably greater fan bases due to the variety of tournaments in which he has played. So what constitutes greatness in your eyes? Is it purely money? Or is it recognition and e-fame as well?
Not only do professional players need to go to Korea for the GSL, the Starcraft teams need to step up and provide the necessary support to send them to the GSL. Sending them for a couple days, doesn’t count. Teams need to invest and make sure that their players have the opportunity to train, practice, and compete in Korea for a long haul.
We have heard INcontrol talk about (after his trip to Korea) how being immersed in a place where pros can't talk with each other about the game, and can constantly be playing and watching the game is very beneficial. This sort of starcraftII culture doesn't have to be confined to Korea. It's not as if the literal ground of Korea makes people good at starcraft. It is the culture and the immersion. If team houses were set up here in the states, or in europe, that same culture could be replicated.
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On February 01 2011 03:29 Xeleron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:23 rift wrote:
A lot of foreigners value money more than fame or "legendary status", and would prefer to live in their own countries and make more playing regional/Western tournaments without giving up everything they have and going to Korea. gsl is most money than any other tournament 1st place is winning middle class yearly pay in america like 50grand ppl work 8 hours a day all year to make that much :l
gsl is also a lot harder. there are players who can probably make more by playing foreign tournaments and skipping gsl.
but I still agree with the sentiments of the OP. you can't really be considered "the top" unless you prove it in GSL.
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On February 01 2011 03:39 1Eris1 wrote:
Uh heres for most of the good foriengers
Korea
.0001% chance to win 50k every month
EU/NA/SEA
50% chance to win a few thousand each month
That's the most absurd fake percentage value I have ever seen someone use as an example. You're implying that there's only 1 good foreigner for each thousand good Koreans.
Personally I do agree with OP, regardless of all of the reasons that players have to participate in the GSL, Jinro would not be anywhere near as much of a successful, fan-backed player as he is today if he didn't place so well in the GSL twice already. Sjow is a really good player, and everyone knows that, but if he places well in the GSL, he suddenly becomes one of the best players. There's a huge difference between winning MLG and placing in the RO8 of the GSL, imho.
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I think the OP is correct. While foreigners may stand to make more money by living in their own respective countries, there will always be the perception of being a second tier player until you've reached the upper levels of a code S tournament.
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I would actually like more teams to stay in Europe/US to create a really competitive atmosphere here. We don't need Korea as long as the competition in west stays on par. And as you can make more money by just playing in Europe than Korea I don't see why the teams should make a move to Korea.
What I would like too see, is teams like Dignitas, Mouz, Empire etc establishing team houses in their respective countrys and start dominating the western scene. Because then everybody else would have to do the same if they want to stay competetive.
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In my opinion, It's not about money, it's about skill. At the moment the best players are in Korea so going there is a logical step. I'd say that if the foreign progamers choose not to go to Korea, and play on NA and EU, then they are nothing more than big fishes in a small pond.
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On February 01 2011 03:52 zakmaa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:39 1Eris1 wrote:
Uh heres for most of the good foriengers
Korea
.0001% chance to win 50k every month
EU/NA/SEA
50% chance to win a few thousand each month
That's the most absurd fake percentage value I have ever seen someone use as an example. You're implying that there's only 1 good foreigner for each thousand good Koreans. Personally I do agree with this post, regardless of all of the reasons that players have to participate in the GSL, Jinro would not be anywhere near as much of a successful, fan-backed player as he is today if he didn't place so well in the GSL twice already. Sjow is a really good player, and everyone knows that, but if he places well in the GSL, he suddenly becomes one of the best players. There's a huge difference between winning MLG and placing in the RO8 of the GSL, imho.
Yes, I remember when Jinro won MLG Dallas Championship. It opened people's eyes, but he didn't achieve legendary status where people would draw fan-arts, create videos, and follow him fanatically until he did well in the GSL.
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On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games.
lol...
Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on?
On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money.
For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it.
Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
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Ofcourse the best players want to compete in the tournament where the best players play, there's the most exposure, the biggest prize pool and overall content/facilities and it e-sports sc2 that happens to be in South Korea so ofcourse the best of the best wanna go there.
The same can be said about football, the best football players wanna compete where the greatest prize pool is, tounaments, fame and clubs and that happens to be in Europe which has the greatest club tournmanents as UEFA Champions League and Europa League. It's this league every football player in the world wanna play in cus ofcourse the best play here, every player from africa, asia, south america etc wanna go to Europe because it has the biggest break through. My 5 cent and comparison 
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Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea.
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if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
and EG & TL will have a huge profit at end this year, mean another foreigners teams, will be behind.
sorry by my poor english.
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On February 01 2011 04:11 xuanzue wrote:
if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
Yeah, jinro. But what is with huk, haypro, ret and tlo? They would have made much more money in the us/eu by now. Well, tlo actually already proved that, winning that poker thingy tournament in london.
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I love how the first two replies in this thread were about money, but were two opposing sides in the argument.
Given the lack of success foreign players other than IdrA and Jinro have had, I think it's pretty clear that you can easily make more money playing in tournaments outside Korea.
I think for most players, it's not about the money. To compete at a world-class level in anything, you need to be highly competitive and always working to be the best. Right now, for SC2, to be the best player, and prove you're the best player, you need to be in Korea. So, I think most players want to go to Korea to get better and to prove themselves. However, the main thing that's holding a lot of players back is actually money. Not the prize money, but the cost of going to Korea.
The teams run on sponsorship money. That's what lets them fly to different places to compete in tournaments. Why are they flying these players around? Brand exposure. The more visible the players and teams are, the more people see them and therefore the more visible the sponsor is. Right now, there's not a lot of foreigners consistently doing well in GSL, which means their sponsors aren't getting as much exposure. It costs money to send the player to Korea AND to sustain them (rent if they're not in the foreigner house, food, other expenses). Meanwhile, it becomes difficult for them to play in other tournaments as the ping to most of the battle.net servers outside Korea is very poor (North America might be decent, not sure) and flying them around will cost even more money. So, everything is riding on getting into the GSL and only a handful have actually done so, with only 2 foreigners actually doing well.
This is why the 4 foreigner Code A spots, and the foreigner house are so important. The house eliminates a significant portion of the cost of sending a player to Korea and the Code A spots skip the difficult qualifying hurdle instantly giving the player's sponsors the exposure.
So, as Chill put it, it's risk/reward analysis. And right now, the risk probably outweighs the reward unless the player gets an invite for one of the 4 Code A spots.
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On February 01 2011 04:08 Grummler wrote:
Korea needs more medium sized tournaments for the gsl to become more popular for foreign players. As long as going to korea to participate in the gsl means, that you have only one chance to actually win money, foreigners will always think about it twice.
Because, lets be honest, gsl prize money for the 1st is awesome, but getting s-class is really hard, and winning $1000 every month for staying code s is way less than a pro can make in the us/eu per month.
Example: Huk. He is a awesome player, one of the best. He is in korea for nearly 3 month now. How much money did he make? ZERO.
White-Ra. Is he better than Huk? Well, we dont know, obviously. But we do now, that he made 5k in one week. Sure, he had to participate in many tournaments, but thats nothing you can do in korea.
If Huk is one of the best, he would've made something by now like Jinro and Idra
Sure S-class is hard, but achieving that status is what makes you good
Not to say that Huk is a horrible player, but one of the best is an overstatement until he can prove it
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On February 01 2011 04:13 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:11 xuanzue wrote:
if any team want more money, and betters sponsors, this team must compete in GSL, just like TL did it. i'm pretty sure that jinro has won more money than any foreigner gamer in sc2.
Yeah, jinro. But what is with huk, haypro, ret and tlo? They would have made much more money in the us/eu by now. Well, tlo actually already proved that, winning that poker thingy tournament in london.
they have trained with jinro helping him to achiev the Ro4.
Now they are in code A and in 2 months will be much better that staying in eu/us.
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On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:
On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on?
While there might be some resentment and ethnocentrism going on, I suspect that here, on the TL forums, it's just that people would like to see a healthy local competitive environment within which our own best players can succeed.
The quality of play at the top levels in Korea is obviously very high, and winning or placing in the premiere Korean tournament will probably be the pinnacle of achievement for a long time to come. However, it's probably a bad idea to underestimate the risk and expense of relocating to Korea to play in it.
That's part of the reason that GOMtv is offering to host top foreigners, to reduce that risk and expense where they can and ensure that GSL is a truly global tournament. However, their resources are limited, and for most overseas players it simply won't be a realistic possibility to relocate to Korea.
Incidentally, the OP seems to presume that there are a number of Western teams not on his list that have the resources to send people to Korea but have chosen not to. I'd be surprised if that were the case. Hearing CatZ talk about Root's finances on his stream (and let's be clear, I have tremendous respect for their team), it sounds like there's barely enough money to keep doing what they're doing, and I'd expect that to be the norm rather than the exception.
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just watch blizzcon / wcg / iem world finals, and you will see who is the best. domestic leagues, as big as the gsl, dont offer tihs opportunity because it has in fact nothing "global", and the very best dont all have the chance to prove their worth.
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On February 01 2011 03:58 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:32 LittleAtari wrote:
honestly, enjoy watching the MLG games than the GSL games. I find that the skill in the MLG games tends to better or at least more closely matched, providing more entertaining games. lol... Skill in MLG games are more evenly matched, sure. Better than Code S? On what planet do you live on? On a more general level, I also don't understand this resentment over Korea being the "hub" of Esports for SC/SC2. Is it because it's been so dominant for so long, people want a change? Or is there some bullshit ethnocentrism going on? I realize that Korea closed themselves off to the foreign world with BW, and some people want "revenge" in SC2. However, Gom is doing whatever they can to attract foreigners. I'm not a Koreaphile, and I don't give a damn about which country dominates the SC2 scene, but the fact is, a certain area of the globe WILL always act as the hub or center of a scene. One country/area will always be willing to put more effort, more resources, more media attention, etc etc for something - be it basketball, football (both types), baseball, or any other form of entertainment (hollywood, broadway, etc.). If it so happens to be Korea for SC2, then so be it. I don't see Dirk Nowitzki or Yao Ming complaining that they have to live in the United States and play in the NBA to be considered "the best," to garner the most attention, or to make the most money. For the person who said something about Esports being something that one can play in the comfort of one's own home...unfortunately, that's not possible with today's level of technology. How can such a competitive game, with so many stakes on the line, guarantee that there's no form of indirect cheating going on when everyone's at home? People coaching in the background, secretly analyzing replays after each game, etc? There needs to be a neutral ground where the competition is held. It just so happens to be Korea...deal with it. Seriously....the world is becoming more and more globalized. I see no difference between having to travel from New York to LA for some MLG event, or having to travel from LA to Korea for the GSL. This "us and them" mentality needs to stop.
I was going to make a reply, but then I saw this post and it basically encompasses everything i could've and would want to say. I completely agree that to be considered one of the best, you have to play in the best league.
Right now, that just so happens to be the GSL. Many a player has taken a paycut on a foreign sports league to come to the US to play in the NBA. Same concept here
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On February 01 2011 03:43 firexfred wrote:Show nested quote +Let’s face it. The GSL is the peak, the pinnacle, the top of Starcraft 2 tournaments. There is nothing that comes close to it. Whether, it’s the competition, the prize money, or the production value, GSL is where one truly makes their name On what are you basing this? The only thing that we can be sure about is the prize money.
I think it's not unreasonable to say that, if only because westerners who have headed over there to play in GSL appear to have met stiffer competition than in the tournaments over here.
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GSL has huge winning potential, but its just potential. The competition is huge and it is rife with various rushes and cut throat tactics to try and win.
If I had the opportunity (And the skills to pay the bills) to live in Korea and compete in the GSL, I probably wouldn't take it. Theres too much to lose. I wouldn't be able to see my family, I'd be forced to live in a foreign and unfamiliar place, playing a game as a job, with the potential to make zero income. Prestige and fame will only get you so far.
I don't see many more going to Korea, and if EVERYONE goes to Korea it will just isolate the scene even more. There will be fewer local tourneys and everyone will be competing for the GSL's pot of gold.
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EPT
