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On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote:
It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
People have to understand that its not about the money.
Its that it limits other people from seeing it.
Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
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Should we make a poll on how many of the people that claim that esport should be free + ads have adblock (or similar) activated ?
i don't think ads would work. others tournament in US and EU are ads driven and their organisation lack of quality
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Calgary25981 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:51 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 04:19 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:
The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though) I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free? Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term". The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right. We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2. With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth. GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it. Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment. Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote:
To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money. I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games. Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing. Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote: If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free? Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right. If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay. Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people... ... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free? Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:54 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote:
It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right? People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it. Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
Then I think you should start working very hard to earn a lot of money and pay GOM a flat rate to make their service free. I can't get how you're arguing that it should just be free for whatever reason.
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On February 01 2011 06:57 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote:On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote:
To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money. I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games. Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing. On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote: If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free? Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right. If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay. Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people... ... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free? Please dude. Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Youtube is full of games played on OGN - company which allows its content to be on public domain. It's not directly on the site but people are allowed to "spread the word", so to speak
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On February 01 2011 06:54 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote:
It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right? People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it. Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
Gom doesn't care if that's what we want and they shouldn't... they are a business and they need to make money. If they think this is the best way to do that, that is what they should do. If making everything free made SC2 blow up and also put Gom out of business because they weren't making enough money, sure that's good for us, but Gom wouldn't be too pleased.
Let's be honest, almost every person in this thread that isn't paying the 10 bucks is doing it because either 1) they actually can't afford it which is understandable or 2) they are too cheap (or I guess they don't actually want to watch). It's beyond pointless to protest this honestly.
IMO
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I've alway bought the season pass. It started out 20$ for GSL 1 ..then the GSL 2 and 3 only costed me 15$ each. GSL 4 was only 10$ and now GSTL Feb is only 5$. For the stream quality, production value of the event and the hrs and hrs of footage ..its worth it.
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On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote:
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships.
I think your expectations are somewhat tilted. Have you looked at Hulu recently, for example? If you want full access to an entire season, all season long, you now have to cough up $7.99/mo for that content. They call it Hulu Plus. http://www.hulu.com/plus
On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote:
I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
There's plenty of public domain SC2 content out there -- and on YouTube -- if you want to introduce people to StarCraft in general. HDStarCraft, Husky, Crota, etc. Even Day[9] has his dailies distributed to YouTube. That's no argument.
Also, Brood War content is free because it's technically pirated. That stuff coming out of Korea isn't produced with the intention of distributing it globally. If anyone even dared to try charging people for stolen content, you could bet there'd be lawsuits up the wazoo.
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On February 01 2011 07:06 UruzuNine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote:
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. I think your expectations are somewhat tilted. Have you looked at Hulu recently, for example? If you want full access to an entire season, all season long, you now have to cough up $7.99/mo for that content. They call it Hulu Plus. http://www.hulu.com/plusShow nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote:
I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing. There's plenty of public domain SC2 content out there -- and on YouTube -- if you want to introduce people to StarCraft in general. HDStarCraft, Husky, Crota, etc. Even Day[9] has his dailies distributed to YouTube. That's no argument. Also, Brood War content is free because it's technically pirated. That stuff coming out of Korea isn't produced with the intention of distributing it globally. If anyone even dared to try charging people for stolen content, you could bet there'd be lawsuits up the wazoo.
Yeah maybe you're right, I'd have to give it some more thought. Oh well.
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On February 01 2011 06:54 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote:
It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right? People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it. Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
It's so easy to say that if you don't have to pay the bills, nor have to take the risks.
Also, may i presume that you think SC2 should be freely available?
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On February 01 2011 06:56 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:51 ShcShc wrote:On February 01 2011 04:19 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:
The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though) I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free? Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term". The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right. We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2. With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth. GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it. Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment. Just my 2 cents. You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares.
They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
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On February 01 2011 07:10 ShcShc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 01 2011 06:56 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:51 ShcShc wrote:On February 01 2011 04:19 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:
The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though) I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free? Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term". The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right. We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2. With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth. GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it. Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment. Just my 2 cents. You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care. Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube. ...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
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Its worth it if you are not going to stay up late like me to watch them all live, because if you dont stay up then you wont see all the games you missed. If you are going to stay up then you might as well watch the free stream its decent quality. I would buy the GSL package but ive had sooooooo many problems with getting the stream to play, and tastosis have recognized how GomTV has been "broke" due to so many people getting on, I would be worried that when I want to watch the show I paid for I wouldnt be able to live.
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On February 01 2011 07:08 Shorack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:54 ShcShc wrote:On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote:
It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right? People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it. Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche? It's so easy to say that if you don't have to pay the bills, nor have to take the risks. Also, may i presume that you think SC2 should be freely available?
There are organizations who are willing to take these risks (OGN and MBC), but they are barred from showing Starcraft 2.
Its pretty simple. I would like to see the game be a lot more than it is today. If we want to put an anchor to its growth, then that's fine. I would still pay because its entertaining but the game will never reach its fullest potential in terms of audiences.
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On February 01 2011 06:51 Danjoh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:
The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo. You need money to make money, if they don't have a decent stream people won't watch anyway, and they won't get sponsors. (If you haven't noticed, there are at times a bunch of complaining regarding the quality of the free SQ stream). If they have alot of viewers on the other hand, sponsors will be willing to pay more. Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:
Also, to those who say, 10$/month is nothing, I beg to differ, 10$/mo is a LOT. Especially for a broke college student, not all of us have great jobs, or have parents with deep pockets who like to spoil their kids rotten with whatever they want. 10$/mo is almost as much as I pay for my cell phone bill, It's 1/4 of how much I pay for my Internet. 20$/year sounds like a fair price to me but 10$/mo is ludicrous.(and isn't it 15$/mo for gom anyways?) If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. GOM would do better in the long term if they get more viewers, and make them watch a couple advertisements rather than trying to make all the viewers pay a fee, This business model has been reproduced all over the internet. Saying that the only way they can do it is by charging a fee is just simply not true. Just to add some counter balance... $10 is hardly anything, it's the average price of a lunch here. I dunno about you, but I can easely sleep past breakfast on weekends, wake up, and don't eat anything until dinner, problem solved, $10 saved on not eating breakfast & lunch 1 day per month. And you pay $10/mo on cellphone bill? O.o Admittedly, my bill has gone up in the past 2 years, so I'm currently paying about $25/year. But while i was still in school and meeting everyone daily, my phone bill was about $10 per year. Try talking to people in person (or over internet) more to save some money there. And oh, I bet you're one of the majority that like to go out a friday night and spend $300 once or twice per month on drinks. It's all about prioritys.
Wow you guys are complaining? I pay 89.95 a month for my net which isn't that good and has a download limit which I know many Americans and Europeans apparently think is ridiculous from what my experiences with foreign students have told me and a minimum of $100/month on my phone bill and pay my own rent and I was a student until VERY recently. I worked to get the money to pay for these things, and I didn't have rich parents with deep pockets, far from it in fact.
$10/month is nothing and anyone who's saying it is clearly is not budgeting their money properly or isn't interested enough to deem in worth saving for.
As i have already mentioned previously, making people pay for GSL does in no way hinder anything especially the future of esports, everyone already says 'why should I' I can get' x' for free on youtube etc....Exactly you can but why do you want the GSL games then? The caliber of play and the players playing, you pay for quality that's how the world works.
Anyone can go to the park and watch a kids soccer game. You wanna see the A-league play. You pay. Simple.
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I would like to point out that Koreans wouldn't even watch SC1 if they started charging for VODs. Remember when they tried to charge money to see the live events?
Mainstream e-sports fan just are not willing to pay money to watch these stuff.
Of course TL community would pay (myself included) to watch Gom. But if it were to grow beyond hardcore SC2 fans, you can't charge money for this stuff.
Also, you can get the GSL vods for free. If you were in Korea.
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On February 01 2011 07:12 UruzuNine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 07:10 ShcShc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 01 2011 06:56 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:51 ShcShc wrote:On February 01 2011 04:19 Chill wrote:On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:
The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though) I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free? Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term". The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right. We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2. With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth. GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it. Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment. Just my 2 cents. You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care. Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube. ...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it. GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
GOM cares because they see the potential of what Starcraft 2 can be in terms of audiences. They've seen it in the GOM MSL days (5 seasons) and wanted to expand into SC1 to take advantage of it. That's fine.
But this time, because they are the only one allowed to Starcraft 2 contents, there won't be that many people who will be exposed to it.
OGN made people pay tickets for a Finals, but stopped (I wonder why).
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EPT
