EPTId implent the same maps GSL uses into my ladder pool and get rid of my terrible maps. And then balance the game surely but slowly to the maps through tons of small changes. Itl be apparent soon enough to see if the top tier terrans have a good chance on a big map or not.
GSL map switch concerns - Page 3
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
Id implent the same maps GSL uses into my ladder pool and get rid of my terrible maps. And then balance the game surely but slowly to the maps through tons of small changes. Itl be apparent soon enough to see if the top tier terrans have a good chance on a big map or not. | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
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Summerfast
24 Posts
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XThunderyX
United States367 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On January 10 2011 13:09 DonKey_ wrote: This is just my thoughts but, isn't the whole purpose of "Grandmaster" and "Master" to cater to the pros. With that in mind it would seem silly for blizzard to not change the map pool to incorporate the maps that the biggest SC2 tournament is using for their map pool. What's the purpose in having leagues in the first place rather than just a point-based ranking? The skill difference between 3000 points and 2000 points Diamond players is far greater than the skill difference between a Platinum leaguer and a Gold leaguer. Thus, Blizzard feels that there needs to be an easy way of showing this difference in ranking. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On January 10 2011 07:38 link0 wrote: The bigger the map, the more likely Protoss will win because warp-gates ignore the defender's advantage. Thats complete bull and i see no evidence for this. Why is protoss so much better off with a huge map? Does that mean that their attacks will be impossible to stop because they can warp in units right outside your ramp in a big map? NO, because protoss already does this in small maps too. Does this mean that a push from Terran wont stand a chance in a big map because toss has warp in? NO, because when protoss warps in to defend, he might as well not use warp in at all since the units will spawn in his own base. Please explain why warp in, ignoring defenders advantage, would be any different on a big map than on a small map? These arguments dont make any sense without some good amount of games played on it. I could just say that Terran will have the advantage because now they can drop harrass with their always available medivacs in a huge map where the opponents army will have to move way far to defend it, and then T can just load up and fly away, or drop somewhere else. Is this true? NO because I have nothing to back that up with so please don't spread that around as fact because people might actually believe you. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On January 10 2011 07:47 link0 wrote: Of course Zerg > Terran in larger maps. But Protoss benefits even more than zerg from map size. No, they don't. Stop being a blind zerg QQing idiot. User was warned for this post | ||
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GP
United States1056 Posts
...and I see the same balance bickering that trashes nearly every other thread on TL. Oh joy. I'm actually worried if this big map change is going to discourage use of the ladder in Korea, which will make it very hard for the little guy not on a team. I think the new maps are great (even the Blizz one) and I hope this is one step closer to Blizzard implementing non-Blizz maps into the map pool. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
to the opinions being stated in the thread, i personally don't care at all that terran is supposedly disadvantageous on large maps and that protoss has an imbalanced advantage on large ones. for one, i disagree with the notion entirely, and two, if i happen to be wrong then unless something is done with the map pool like this, terran will continue to be a gimp race who only has any use on small maps which hide the imbalance by having heavily favored terran maps. when it comes to protoss' advantage, they negate the walking distance disadvantage whether the map is big or small, so i don't see why the size of the map comes into play. yes, of course, the larger the map, the more distance they are shortening, but if you haven't already adjusted to the fact that protoss can reinforce without moving across the map then frankly you are just not good at your XvP because that's the reality of the match ups that involve a protoss. to me it's just silly to cling to these bad maps because they might expose imbalance (which again i don't believe), i'd reason that it's better to just improve the maps and correct the balance of the races which have issues on long maps in retrospect once people actually play on good maps, instead of preemptively saying 'no, i would rather have imbalanced maps because they hide the imbalance of my race and other races.' if you're so concerned about balance, it seems highly counter-intuitive from my POV. maybe someone could open my mind if i'm not thinking straight. i also think it's silly that these maps should be restricted only to a certain caliber of players. there will probably still be short maps, but they will be the exception, not the norm like they are now on the ladder. newer players will have a much easier time learning to play if they don't have to have precise defense timing vs over 9000 rushes on a macro-friendly map. there will be room for error, which a sloppy player needs, because they will make those errors. from what i've seen, lower level players have the most varied opinions on virtually everything because, no offense, but they have less understanding, so there will be both agreement and disagreement between them no matter what maps they play on. it's borderline random as to what they enjoy, so i think everyone should just get the same maps so nobody complains about how they wish they had X map but their league doesn't have it. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On January 10 2011 13:27 Herculix wrote: when it comes to protoss' advantage, they negate the walking distance disadvantage whether the map is big or small, so i don't see why the size of the map comes into play. yes, of course, the larger the map, the more distance they are shortening, but if you haven't already adjusted to the fact that protoss can reinforce without moving across the map then frankly you are just not good at your XvP because that's the reality of the match ups that involve a protoss. P can reinforce quickly, but his entire army still has to move from one side of the map to the other. If Z scouts this and has a shitton of larvae (and free supply), that means Z is able to set up a much stronger economy before making army units than would be possible on a smaller map. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
On topic, Blizzard will be forced to rotate maps, or ladder will become irrelevant. Starcraft is Korea's game, and it's clear that the scene is suffering over there because of Blizzard's poor decision making. Eventually GSL will switch to using custom maps exclusively, and if Blizzard stubbornly decides not to follow, then pros will stop laddering. All it takes is a single map that they don't have access to on ladder, then suddenly finding a practice partner and doing games on that map becomes a necessity. After that, it's quite convenient to simply play all of your games in customs, and ignore ladder where you're forced to play on maps that don't matter to you. If GSL actually adopts these new maps, the ball is in Blizzard's court. Whether they follow along will determine if they remain relevant to the SC2 scene at all. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Yes, there are more places to proxy the pylon, but at the same time, a 4gate relies on the ability to reinforce the push non-stop. On a map that big, if you are keeping up with scouting and manage to snipe the pylon or the probe that is sent out to build the pylon, the 4gate rush is essentially done. Missing a warpgate cycle of reinforcement means that the other player has a full cycle less to deal with or else you have +rush distance time to prepare. Either way it gives you a better shot at seeing the rush coming and stopping it. If you see a probe leave the base with a few stalkers and zealots, and when you left protoss base he had >40 chrono, you already know what build is most likely to come. You are already stopping 4gates on everything from close pos. steppes to x pos shakuras so I don't see where the problem is. PvP is the one exception to this, bigger maps can potentially fix the danger of (proxy) 2gate, but now on maps this big, the goto build is very likely to be a blink stalker centric with emphasis on never letting an enemy probe put up a pylon near the home base. With bigger maps, and stalkers esp. with blink being the fastest protoss ground units, sniping units all the way home can potentially save this matchup, or break it. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
On January 10 2011 12:58 Fa1nT wrote: No... if they are going to do that it should be for Platinum and up Many people have wanted "advanced" maps for a long time, but it's not the top 1% that should get them, it's the top 25%. It would give people more incentive to get better as well, being able to finally play on new maps for a change. This would also allow blizzard to gauge the balance of new maps, since most of the feedback will be from players with at least a slight grasp on the game. Everyone paid the same price for the game, everyone deserves the same balance of game, every league should run the same maps, no exceptions. Stop trying to babysit, it's both insulting and annoying. Also aimed at the guy in the spoiler too, Elitism doesn't help anyone. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
the mobility provided by warpgates just means that terrans or zergs have to be prepared for 4gate attacks of almost the same strength as on smaller maps, but at the same time the large map size means that any early troops have a harder time paying for themselves in case there is no 4gate coming. but tbh a 4gate can easily be scouted long before its coming simply by the amount of structures, gas and chrono in his base. zergs can simply save up some more larvae and produce just in time if a 4gate is in indeed coming, terrans can throw up some bunkers which shouldnt set them back too far when opening with a quick expansion anyway. so yes, large maps have a good synergy with warpgate mechanics, but on the other hand protoss have the least mobile armies in the game. terran troops have tons of harassment potential and generally fight quite well in smaller numbers. zergs have creep and lings plus mutas for easy mapcontrol. by contrast, toss armies need to stay in one big blob to be effective and they always involve either colossi or templars, which both are slow. therefore i expect toss to have quite some trouble controlling large amounts of area (e.g. expos far from each other) on large maps. terran main armies arent that much more mobile either, if not even less mobile, but we got PFs, hero turrets and tanks. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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Biggo
Australia185 Posts
I am hoping they will, as if they continue to support the GSL as much as they have been, I would expect the vast majority of gamers would also want the opportunity to play on the maps they see broadcast on a blizzard sponsored event. | ||
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elkram
United States221 Posts
what do you think blizz will do about the ladder maps, and do you think that playing on the ladder may be completely extinct among pros in the future? to: are these new, larger maps, balanced? + Show Spoiler + lol Not even referring to the second question that the thread began addressing, I'll actually try and get this thread back on track, again, and answer the OP's question. I feel that the map pool on ladder will definitely change to promote more macro play. As they showed in the past they don't hold any sacred cows, in terms of map pool, and what they are willing to take out and put in (except for maybe LT). So in terms of that I feel that the map pool will change, but not to the extent that pros would like. This leads to your second question, and I feel that as the game progresses pros, inside and outside of Korea, will begin to rely mostly on customs, and maybe some sort of other ladder made by a 3rd party. | ||
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