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On December 23 2010 00:38 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:11 CherubDown wrote:
To contribute to the OP...
I don't see this game like poker in any way. In poker you make bets on what you have and what you think the opponent has. This is not Starcraft.
I do see it more like Chess in that it involves a shit ton of strategy and critical thinking.
But really, it's not like Chess, either. More like a mix of chess and soccer (football for Europeans). It requires quick thinking and split-second decision making as well as perspiration and even physical strength to endure a 50 minute game. Which kindof brings up a new topic about how physical Starcraft is... Whenever I'm done with a game, I'm sweating bullets and my adrenaline is oozing, but I don't want to get off topic. In Sc2 you bet all the time. Every single investment is a bet based on your limited information. Every time you build a marauder you have an EV for that unit. Same goes for workers, building, teching, attacking, bunkers etc. etc. Whatever you put your money in you expect it to be worth more than the investment for you to eventually win the game. Poker is basicly risk taking based on limited information. Same as Sc2.
One observer, overlord sac, or scanner sweep and you can see what the opponent has. In poker you get no glances at the opponents cards. I don't buy your argument at all.
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On December 23 2010 00:52 CherubDown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 00:38 Armsved wrote:On December 23 2010 00:11 CherubDown wrote:
To contribute to the OP...
I don't see this game like poker in any way. In poker you make bets on what you have and what you think the opponent has. This is not Starcraft.
I do see it more like Chess in that it involves a shit ton of strategy and critical thinking.
But really, it's not like Chess, either. More like a mix of chess and soccer (football for Europeans). It requires quick thinking and split-second decision making as well as perspiration and even physical strength to endure a 50 minute game. Which kindof brings up a new topic about how physical Starcraft is... Whenever I'm done with a game, I'm sweating bullets and my adrenaline is oozing, but I don't want to get off topic. In Sc2 you bet all the time. Every single investment is a bet based on your limited information. Every time you build a marauder you have an EV for that unit. Same goes for workers, building, teching, attacking, bunkers etc. etc. Whatever you put your money in you expect it to be worth more than the investment for you to eventually win the game. Poker is basicly risk taking based on limited information. Same as Sc2. One observer, overlord sac, or scanner sweep and you can see what the opponent has. In poker you get no glances at the opponents cards. I don't buy your argument at all.
I dont get a glance on my opponent hands, but I do however have pokertracker running and I do have the ability to watch his previous hands played so I can put him on a number of hands based of his actions. I might not know his hand, but I can certainly put him on 99-QQ etc. and base my decision of that. "scouting" is everything in poker. Unless you are multitable grinding lower levels with a tight aggro style you need to adapt to the individual player.
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Is starcraft more like windsurfing or a glass of milk?
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The best SC2 players find ways to get the information they need to make the game more like chess than poker.
The ones who are playing the game like poker will eventually lose to the players with the clever scouting tactics.
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Day9 said it best in SOTG:
If SC2 were like poker, no matter how well you played, you could still get run down by 50 ultralisks on the river. To be honest, all chess is a TBS (kinda RTS, but TBS at its core). Poker is a RPG. You will see similarities between SC2 and each of these games, but it's still just a embellished chess match. Everyone has the same opportunity at the start of the game (1 base, 6 probes/drones/SCVs, and 50 minerals), and where they go from there is their business. Now, there's no spawning units in chess OR poker, but any "information" strategy you see in poker, you will undoubtedly see in chess.
All RTS stem from the idea of controlling units and using the equality at the start of the game to have a better economy, better army, and eventually, better win/loss ratio. 
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Starcraft is Chess where you can only see the opponent's moves every 3-4 turns.
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definitely more like poker. theres luck involved in both games. chess is 100% strategy.
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While I do think that starcraft has a slight element of luck in it, I'd have to say it is more like chess. You have to be able to think two steps in advance, and adapt to the situation.
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I say both simply because the outcome of the game can be decided purely on a spawning location. So I think that luck is a factor and always will be.
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It's like chess with imperfect or missing information. Played perfectly, with good scouting from both players it plays out like chess, so I can see how you're make that comparison.
Not really sure how you'd think it's like poker though, unless you think both games are about luck (which they aren't) and going "all-in". Mechanically it might be like poker (timings) but strategically it's closer to chess.
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poker. too much luck in sc2.
chess is a game of pure skill and thought. both of which are minimalized in sc2 compared to chess
Nexus Wars is much more comparable to chess than sc2 ladder
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chess is sorta like poker at a very high level
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On December 23 2010 01:03 synchrosonik wrote:
Is starcraft more like windsurfing or a glass of milk?
This
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As someone who grew up playing FPS games, and only recently switched over to SC2, I am truly amazed at the level of strategy and hand-eye coordination the game requires. Anytime I have to describe the game to someone who doesn't play it I say "It's like chess, played with both hands and feet, and it's not turn based anymore. That's about a fraction of the speed and strategy in Starcraft."
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On December 23 2010 01:03 synchrosonik wrote:
Is starcraft more like windsurfing or a glass of milk?
Really, its windsurfing while drinking a glass of milk.
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In terms of the skill set required, it's obviously poker. Look at how many bw players that also have been successful at poker.
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Starcraft is like Warcraft 3... in ssspppaaacceee!!!
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People often lose in chess because they fail to spot something. Games can also be determined by who has memorized openings most extensively, on which Bobby Fischer remarked, "Now chess is completely dead. It is all just memorization and prearrangement. It's a terrible game now. Very uncreative." Which calls to mind the extreme advantage sheer muscle-memory gives a practiced player in BW and to a lesser degree in SC2. Maybe, then, if SC2 is moving away from being chess-like, that's a good thing. I would like to see SC2 reward creativity, psychological games, and logic; as much as it does muscle memory.
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It's like Poker.
Chess is a game of perfect information. All the moves and countermoves are visible and revealed to both players at 100% of the time.
Poker however is not. There is hidden information between players. You cannot be certain of what the other person has, and how he is going to play his cards.
The same thing is in Starcraft. You have hidden information. You can never be certain about what your opponent is going to do or how the game will play out.
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Chess is a perfect information game. Poker is a game of hidden information.
Starcraft is more like Poker than Chess. How many famous professional Starcraft players go on to Chess careers, and how many go on to Poker careers?
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EPT
