This is the same post as my last one, except now I have a replay:
As a protoss player, walling your ramp with two buildings and a zealot is pretty standard in ZvP. Every zerg player has experienced the frustration of being unable to bypass the hold position zealot. However, I have played several games over the last month where my zerglings were able to slip by for some reason. At first I attributed it to poor zealot position, but later I discovered that there is actually a way to force zerglings past the hold position zealot. It is very simple too:
1. Get a group of zerglings 2. Run them up the ramp and spam click right next to the zealot. Sometimes this can be hard to do because of various building positions, but you can still do it. 3. Your zerglings will push the zealot out of the way and eventually you can stream lings past and wreak havoc in the base.
Unfortunately, I think this sort of breaks the ZvP matchup =/. The other races can't handle a swarm of zerglings that early on inside their base, so they sort of need that wall. The only counter to this is to make a complete wall with a pylon or something.
I did it twice. The first test had a zealot with one side to the cliff and one to the building, and the second was with the zealot between two buildings. It is much easier to do this when the zealot has a cliff to his side.
Ive had lings run past hold position zealots before, wrecked my day. However most zergs see the zealot and don't engage it because they think they'll never get through... not entirely true depending on how the zealot is positioned.
I'm pretty sure there was a huge thread discussing this a couple of months ago but, I can't find it. Basically, I think this is only true if the zealot is not placed in the same orientation as the space it's taking up on the building grid. The zealot also has to be in the perfect spot or else it'll let lings in when it turns to attack them.
On December 08 2010 03:42 Azide wrote: not sure why you would post this on a popular forum if its indeed true. now we're gonna get raped. if you were a zerg player i could understand....
shoulda just submitted it to blizz if anything
lol especially if he is a zerg he shouldnt have post it. then he could have abused it forever without people reporting it^^
On December 08 2010 03:43 Jettster wrote: I'm pretty sure there was a huge thread discussing this a couple of months ago but, I can't find it. Basically, I think this is only true if the zealot is not placed in the same orientation as the space it's taking up on the building grid. The zealot also has to be in the perfect spot or else it'll let lings in when it turns to attack them.
Is there a way for the P player to test this? Like, spamming right click with a second zealot to see if he can get past the wall? Or will that not work because of the zergling's incredibly small unit model?
On December 08 2010 03:44 cartofu wrote: What about a roach wall?
Umm, it depends how many roaches they have. If they only have 3 roaches, you could probably just run a bunch of zerglings up and break it normally, but if they have more than that, you will take a lot of damage trying to get by so I am not sure if it is worth it =/.
On December 08 2010 03:45 Alpina wrote: Well just build one more zealot, zerg needs ton of lings to do that anyway
I tried it with multiple zealots just now. You can still do it, but it is much harder.
On December 08 2010 03:47 FawkingGoomba wrote: Ling tight wall with zealot just needs proper placement, going to assume OP's zealot was slightly off/oriented incorrectly.
On December 08 2010 03:47 FawkingGoomba wrote: Ling tight wall with zealot just needs proper placement, going to assume OP's zealot was slightly off/oriented incorrectly.
Watch the replay or test it before you assume anything.
Yeah, like a few people before be here have said, this has been doable since beta. If I recall correctly, an early beta patch reduced the severity of it; as I remember this trick used to be even easier to execute. Or maybe I'm just making things up.
I was messing around with things like this a while back and you can actually push zealots on hold position out of the way if you bring some drones and repeatedly alternate between mining (i.e. going through the zealot) and hold position.
This looks like a very weird situation, the zealot's command shifts from "hold" to "attack" once it gets in range of enemies, I suppose this allows it to be pushed around also. I wonder if this is a bug.
Yea, I've ragequitted everytime and called my opponent a cheater ... =( It's so true it's such a hack ...
Now adays, I get a sentry when theres a ton of zerglings because that's the only thing that will stop that kind of hacky snap. What's even worse is a probe hold position can let drones pass by (WHICH SHOULDN'T HAPPEN IN SC2).
On December 08 2010 04:14 ScythedBlade wrote: Yea, I've ragequitted everytime and called my opponent a cheater ... =( It's so true it's such a hack ...
Now adays, I get a sentry when theres a ton of zerglings because that's the only thing that will stop that kind of hacky snap. What's even worse is a probe hold position can let drones pass by (WHICH SHOULDN'T HAPPEN IN SC2).
Can't drones pass by anyway with the mineral-clicking trick?
On December 08 2010 04:14 ScythedBlade wrote: Yea, I've ragequitted everytime and called my opponent a cheater ... =( It's so true it's such a hack ...
Now adays, I get a sentry when theres a ton of zerglings because that's the only thing that will stop that kind of hacky snap. What's even worse is a probe hold position can let drones pass by (WHICH SHOULDN'T HAPPEN IN SC2).
Can't drones pass by anyway with the mineral-clicking trick?
On December 08 2010 04:14 ScythedBlade wrote: Yea, I've ragequitted everytime and called my opponent a cheater ... =( It's so true it's such a hack ...
Now adays, I get a sentry when theres a ton of zerglings because that's the only thing that will stop that kind of hacky snap. What's even worse is a probe hold position can let drones pass by (WHICH SHOULDN'T HAPPEN IN SC2).
Can't drones pass by anyway with the mineral-clicking trick?
This has been covered already. the toss must be really lame to allow that much lings and have only 1 zealot and nothing else. in which case, perhaps he deserves to get raped anyway :D
On December 08 2010 04:22 dennisvreyes wrote: This has been covered already. the toss must be really lame to allow that much lings and have only 1 zealot and nothing else. in which case, perhaps he deserves to get raped anyway :D
ugh...fixing in 1.2? i just found this out, if majority of the players know this trick, it'll break zvp early game.
i've left game where i forget to hold position on my zealot (i'd press g instead sometimes). my fault so i just call it quits...havnt had this happen to me yet but i'd rage so bad.
Would this work against roach walls as well then? Pretty lame bug, but probably good to through it out there so Blizzard will see it and fix it immediately. This totally breaks PvZ early game.
Many people who show themselves shocked by this seem to assume that without this trick it was impossible for the lings to get in. But guess what, you can also kill the zealot. Just sacrifice a few lings, constantly reinforce and bam, you're in ezpz. I've been having some fun with that because Toss players don't expect it and think they just need one zealot shouting "you shall not pass" and nothing gets in :D
Yeah this is a huge problem, a big reason I changed my wall design. I thought for a long time that I had simply failed to put my zealot in the right place, but until one game where I actually saw it happen and the player said thats what he was doing. I think that if you put another unit behind the zealot on hold position he won't get budged out of the way. Not sure if it works with probes but it definitely does with stalkers and other zealots.
Seems like this is pretty common on the ladder, any good zerg knows how to do it as it happened to me like 5 games in a row until I figured out what was going on.
I've had this happen to me before i thought it was normal...Well now i know i can nerd Rage. Actually i use to think i was just an idiot with poor zealot positioning or i didnt press H so i always blamed myself so thanks OP i feel a little better about myself :D
What is with all of the "why are you posting here" comments? That is how things get known, and then get fixed. Sending one email to blizzard on something they haven't verified is open too many deltas of the issue not getting fixed.
Making posts on here helps the community push for changes instead of one player sending in an email.
On December 08 2010 04:53 FrogOfWar wrote: Many people who show themselves shocked by this seem to assume that without this trick it was impossible for the lings to get in. But guess what, you can also kill the zealot. Just sacrifice a few lings, constantly reinforce and bam, you're in ezpz. I've been having some fun with that because Toss players don't expect it and think they just need one zealot shouting "you shall not pass" and nothing gets in :D
Yet still it is terrible that you can force enemy units to move when they are set to hold position.
WOW i just tried it vs a friend and it actually works... and people have done it to me over and over again on ladder and i was thinking that i didn't put my zealot on hold o.o wow this blows for protoss!.
the zerg attacks in the moment you have 1 zealot and max 1 other unit, stalker/sentry/zealot... so you need to hold arround 12 lings vs 1 zealot+1 other gateway unit. shortly after it another 8 lings follow.
i think this is just impossible to stop with a standard bo right now. testet it several times and its just impossible to stop, it reall is. even if i got a sentry out, what is not this much of a problem, it changes nothing, i can block his lings for a few seconds but i cant get a second sentry out, or warpgates ready.
my thoughts: its impossible to stop if you dont do a complete wall-in or a cannon opening... what ever.
the thing is: you cant scout it... the clanmate i testet against just did a standard speedling build, what is not this uncommon. so i cant know if bug abuse will come... so i need to do a cannon opening or complete wall-in prophylactically
you could push the zealot out with drone sliding which would be far easier couldn't you ? never tested it when i was playing zerg. But i would suggest the toss player just attacks then if they try this, since the zealot wouldn't possible be pushed away then.
On December 08 2010 05:36 FeyFey wrote: you could push the zealot out with drone sliding which would be far easier couldn't you ? never tested it when i was playing zerg. But i would suggest the toss player just attacks then if they try this, since the zealot wouldn't possible be pushed away then.
so say i was zerg (i play toss) if i mineral click through, and press stop when the drone is right on top of the zealot, does the zealot move away? (assuming i'm really quick and the drone doesn't die)
I just tried this with a friend as well. Clicking behind the zealot doesn't work. But if you spam click in front of the zealot, even on your own zerglings half the time, the zealot slowly starts to get pushed back.
While it's surprising (it happened to me several times but I thought it was a zealot misplacement), it's no so game breaking since you can make a complete wall with another pylon anyway :-)
Edit: However it should be patched as soon as possible
you can also just attack the buildings. most of the time you can have you zerglings hittin something, and if he only has a zealot he'll need to move it or you can damage it pretty bad. I just did this a couple games ago and got the gateway to like half health since he waited for a sentry.
On December 08 2010 05:36 FeyFey wrote: you could push the zealot out with drone sliding which would be far easier couldn't you ? never tested it when i was playing zerg. But i would suggest the toss player just attacks then if they try this, since the zealot wouldn't possible be pushed away then.
so say i was zerg (i play toss) if i mineral click through, and press stop when the drone is right on top of the zealot, does the zealot move away? (assuming i'm really quick and the drone doesn't die)
On December 08 2010 06:11 slam wrote: So would walling off with a stalker on hold position be a good solution to this? Stalkers also are better for defending against baneling busts, right?
You can't get a Stalker out in time to fend off a rush, and their damage is pretty pathetic vs Zerglings compared to a Zealot.
if you hold a probe right behind the zealot and make the harder kind of wallin with the zealot inbetween core and gate it should be able to hold though, I mean performing this trick would cost you a lot of lings then at least.
Wow, what a load off my fricken mind. I remember this from Beta, and I thought I remembered it being patched. I have lost a lot of games because my hold-position Zealot appeared to have lost weight or something.
On December 08 2010 06:15 Sleight wrote: What about Stalkers? Sentries? Probes?
Yeah a lot more testing should be done, the replay only had lotsa speedlings. How about like 8 normal zerglings? thats more realistic early game since no stalkers would be out at that point in most cases.
On December 08 2010 06:11 slam wrote: So would walling off with a stalker on hold position be a good solution to this? Stalkers also are better for defending against baneling busts, right?
You can't get a Stalker out in time to fend off a rush, and their damage is pretty pathetic vs Zerglings compared to a Zealot.
I don't think that a 6 or 10 pool rush would really be a problem. You can just use probes and zealot to defend against that. I'm talking about runbys where the zerg has like 15-20 zerglings. In my opinion that are the only ones that are a real threat.
Thread has hit required length for Blizzard to eventually pay attention to it. Just need to keep it bumped for the next couple days and we can be guaranteed that it will be fixed
Yeah this has been going on for a while, it's happened to me more than a few times, you really need to have a second unit stacked up behind the zealot to prevent him from just getting pushed back.
luckily the kind of zergling aggression that is required to really leverage this (before your second unit comes out to help block) is economically devastating to the zerg, if you are able to stabilize off of it then you'll usually end up being alright.
hold position zealot can hold the spot since early beta. This was a problem during the early days, that zealots couldnt hold zerglins (oh my gawd, they had to get a sentry) so they fixed it, as long as the zealot(s) dont switch to attack move they wont get pushed away.
On December 08 2010 06:41 Geo.Rion wrote: hold position zealot can hold the spot since early beta. This was a problem during the early days, that zealots couldnt hold zerglins (oh my gawd, they had to get a sentry) so they fixed it, as long as the zealot(s) dont switch to attack move they wont get pushed away.
Unfortunately, I will 100% completely assure you that Hold Position STILL SCREWs up. Had it not been for my, "ZOMG BUILD PYLONS" reaction, I would've lost that game. See replay. It does screw up =<
...man all those games that I could of swore that I had my zealot on hold yet zerglings got thru. I could of sworn I was pushed out of the way. Zerg player probably didnt even realize what he did either....
On December 08 2010 06:41 Geo.Rion wrote: hold position zealot can hold the spot since early beta. This was a problem during the early days, that zealots couldnt hold zerglins (oh my gawd, they had to get a sentry) so they fixed it, as long as the zealot(s) dont switch to attack move they wont get pushed away.
Unfortunately, I will 100% completely assure you that Hold Position STILL SCREWs up. Had it not been for my, "ZOMG BUILD PYLONS" reaction, I would've lost that game. See replay. It does screw up =<
i checked the rep in OP, the zealot was on hold position and it held position, then it switched to attack. I dont know, i assume you're saying they do this randomly, still holding down H will save you. Just watch the rep and select the zealot, it does not move half an inch when the HoldP is selected
I've been 10pooling and doing this against Protoss for weeks, they just die to it. There's really nothing they can do because they aren't aware that zerglings can leak through (hence they've made zero, maybe one other unit).
Maybe sentrys should have a slightly faster build time? Darn the zealot and warpgate build time nerf. I always felt it was only because Blizzard made such imbalance close spawn maps that they got nerfed(I'm looking at you steppes).
wow this is pretty broken. if i didn't want to improve my game i'd just abuse this and win sooo many games vs protoss because i just don't see how it's possible to hold a 10 pool or overpool with this bug without being massively behind.
On December 08 2010 06:45 SuperYo1000 wrote: ...man all those games that I could of swore that I had my zealot on hold yet zerglings got thru. I could of sworn I was pushed out of the way. Zerg player probably didnt even realize what he did either....
Had the same, there were situations were i swore to god i placed my zealot right and on hold, but somehow zerglings squeezed through. : |
Can someone (someone with friends ;_;) test this with stop instead of hold position? From the replay it looked like the zealot only moved in the duration of his attack animation, so theoretically the stop command wouldn't allow the push.
Wall off with zealot next to gateway and not cyber core. Cybercore is actually a little smaller than the gateway if you look at the circle. I just tested it and the zlot died before getting pushed out of the way when you wall off with the zealot next to gateway, however in the replay the zealot was next to a cybernetics.
On December 08 2010 06:41 Geo.Rion wrote: hold position zealot can hold the spot since early beta. This was a problem during the early days, that zealots couldnt hold zerglins (oh my gawd, they had to get a sentry) so they fixed it, as long as the zealot(s) dont switch to attack move they wont get pushed away.
Unfortunately, I will 100% completely assure you that Hold Position STILL SCREWs up. Had it not been for my, "ZOMG BUILD PYLONS" reaction, I would've lost that game. See replay. It does screw up =<
i checked the rep in OP, the zealot was on hold position and it held position, then it switched to attack. I dont know, i assume you're saying they do this randomly, still holding down H will save you. Just watch the rep and select the zealot, it does not move half an inch when the HoldP is selected
We were testing this earlier, the glitch seems to make the zealots switch to a-move. Then we tested if you can stop it by spamming H, which actually helps a little bit, but it still happens. Holding H does nothing, so unless you have some kind of turbo button, it still pushes the zealot out of the way.
On December 08 2010 06:41 Geo.Rion wrote: hold position zealot can hold the spot since early beta. This was a problem during the early days, that zealots couldnt hold zerglins (oh my gawd, they had to get a sentry) so they fixed it, as long as the zealot(s) dont switch to attack move they wont get pushed away.
Unfortunately, I will 100% completely assure you that Hold Position STILL SCREWs up. Had it not been for my, "ZOMG BUILD PYLONS" reaction, I would've lost that game. See replay. It does screw up =<
i checked the rep in OP, the zealot was on hold position and it held position, then it switched to attack. I dont know, i assume you're saying they do this randomly, still holding down H will save you. Just watch the rep and select the zealot, it does not move half an inch when the HoldP is selected
We were testing this earlier, the glitch seems to make the zealots switch to a-move. Then we tested if you can stop it by spamming H, which actually helps a little bit, but it still happens. Holding H does nothing, so unless you have some kind of turbo button, it still pushes the zealot out of the way.
That is just a ridiculous element of multitasking that is required; shouldn't be required i don't think..
On December 08 2010 06:11 slam wrote: So would walling off with a stalker on hold position be a good solution to this? Stalkers also are better for defending against baneling busts, right?
Nope doesn't work. And stalkers aren't that good against zerglings.
it happened to me a few times, even though it was marines not zealots, but anyway zerglings just pushed marines (between two rax ) even though they there on hold position ;/ though is done slowly however then you have 3 marines it wont take much time to go through
On December 08 2010 03:35 Xanbatou wrote: Unfortunately, I think this sort of breaks the ZvP matchup =/. The other races can't handle a swarm of zerglings that early on inside their base, so they sort of need that wall. The only counter to this is to make a complete wall with a pylon or something.
Thanks for breaking it, then. If you were worried about that, you shouldn't have made this post.
On December 08 2010 08:21 Kalpman wrote: Im a zerg and I can tell you right now that I will never use this method as obviously its a glitch, and I hope that blizzard patches this soon.
look at it this way, Its payback for all the double pylon blocks at ramp gayness
Also, why do people always act as if you NEED to wall?
@OP
Protoss and Terran most certainly can handle early zerglings in their base. With good building placement (not at the wall), you can easily defend well against zerglings with 1 zealot and/or well micro'd probes/scvs.
but wow thanks for showing lol, ill try to practice this :D
On December 08 2010 03:35 Xanbatou wrote: Unfortunately, I think this sort of breaks the ZvP matchup =/. The other races can't handle a swarm of zerglings that early on inside their base, so they sort of need that wall. The only counter to this is to make a complete wall with a pylon or something.
Thanks for breaking it, then. If you were worried about that, you shouldn't have made this post.
No. Stop it. This is not HIS fault. Since this bug is "supposedly" fixed I bet you there are people out there that KNOWS that this still works other then this dude. This brings it out in the open.
On December 08 2010 08:21 Kalpman wrote: Im a zerg and I can tell you right now that I will never use this method as obviously its a glitch, and I hope that blizzard patches this soon.
look at it this way, Its payback for all the double pylon blocks at ramp gayness
now you guyz now know why in pro games the protoss players have senrtry or to and offen compleyley wall off, as this ai pushing does mean your forceing the zerglings into one spot, which zealots eat well, u normally have enough time to warp in soemthing to do a 100% block off
On December 08 2010 08:21 Kalpman wrote: Im a zerg and I can tell you right now that I will never use this method as obviously its a glitch, and I hope that blizzard patches this soon.
look at it this way, Its payback for all the double pylon blocks at ramp gayness
To be perfectly honest I don't think this is the end of the world by any means for protoss. I mean you could drone drill in Brood War but it didn't make the matchup stupid impossible for protoss. I don't understand why people are so up in arms about this...just think of a different/better solution. Bring 2 probes out to also block with the zealot when you see the lings approach, or spam hold position like other people say.
On December 08 2010 08:45 mardi wrote: im a zerg player but an easy fix to this is to put a zealot/sentry/stalker right behind your zealot wall in hold/stop and that zealot won't move.
No I'll just block zerg's ramp with two pylons. Oh wait...........
While this may be true... it's an exploit and unintended. OP honestly should've reported it to Blizzard and kept it to himself... I'm scared to ladder now hah.
On December 08 2010 09:18 DamageInq wrote: While this may be true... it's an exploit and unintended. OP honestly should've reported it to Blizzard and kept it to himself... I'm scared to ladder now hah.
Don't be. I think you're overestimating how many people lurk this forum 24/7 ... oh wait :O
this is so lame if it is true. unless it is patched protoss standard will have to change from getting fast robo to probably more like a 2 gate into a 4 gate, which would likely ruin the matchup, or all zergs will get like a 14 pool with witch to ling rush protoss (scary thought). my only question is that in the latest patch there was something about hold position units, does this possibly fix this problem?
wow, just tried it and its true,works like a charm. my opponent even tried to put 3 zealots in a clump between his buildings and they were holding it pretty nicely, but were slowly but surely pushed back by the lings, im not kidding you. if its just one zealot you can pretty much just ignore him because hes gonna be pushed away so easily.
It somewhat depends on the placement of the zealot. In my tests it didnt work very well with 2 zeals blocking next to eachother. Plus it isnt worthwhile if one side of the gateway is parallel to the edge of your base.l
I've done this as zerg plenty of times before and opponents scream "OP, omfg hacker, my zealot was on hold"
"Maybe next time try 2 zealots?" "stfu hackerr"
etc.etc.
2nd zealot may slow down first stalker, though. Alternatively, you can use the first stalker but that takes a bit more time than the second zealot to produce.
This is horrible ... and makes a lot of sense. I've had lings break through my wall a bunch of times, and it's drove me crazy and I couldn't figure out how it happened. This needs to be patched.
Hey guys So my partner, Dknight and I tried this. Do I think this is a bug? not from my testing, but its only a opinion
We used the Ins and Del buttons to change the viewing angle, and you can see the zealot leaves room. Especially if there is a cliff to the side. The size of the zealot doesn't really close the gap, unless it was in the "perfect" place from our testing, and just left barely enough room for a ling to run by.
I agree there seems to be a small "push" animation, but I do think positioning has alot to do with it (maybe why some maps are harder then others?)
Anyways, you can seal it off with a zealot and prob and I couldn't get by with my lings, or like someone said, a second zealot. I'm thinking time will tell if this is a tru bug or not, or just a mechanic with have to fight with the way our static camera works, but try holding down the Ins and check it out the next time, u might see what i mean
If you hit early enough, and he only has 1 zealot, and you attack the building instead - if he decides to move, you can then run lings past, I guess he has to be bad, and not 2gating, but still..
This is more than just a simple bug, I think. It has to do with the general way that units push other units.
By the same principle, I have used a ball of marines to "carry" tanks across the map. (I'm sorry, I don't have the replay handy - writing this mobile-y) Move your tanks into the fore of a marine ball, select the whole group, start move, stim and laugh.
This works because the zealot does not completely plug in the wall, the camera just creates an optical illusion. Maybe spam clicking hold position or lining the zealot to plug one half and a probe behind it plugging up the hole thats left would work against mass lings until you get another zealot. If you lined up the probe and zealot to plug it up and attack when the lings try to push they might not get pushed out of the way.
EDIT: i tried the probe idea and it sort of works. If you're worried about losing to a 7pool or something placing a probe next to the zealot will stop the pushing but then you have to worry about the probe getting killed if there is a ton of lings. Getting 2 zealots shuts this down completely and so does having a sentry next to your zealot, even without FF.
LOL omg this works. It's not a massive deal since you actually kill the zealot faster if you aren't doing this trick, but still kinda silly that it works. It works better if the gap is larger behind the zealot, but honestly most maps with a gate/forge wall this is hardly an issue.
This only works because Blizzard designed zealots using real life logic.
Imagine you were a zealot. The second you saw 8 zerglings barreling towards you and you were by yourself you would run tail immediately, hence not being able to hold position. But if you had a buddy with you (another zealot) he wouldn't hesitate for a second and push you right up against the door and sacrifice your ass to save himself and the rest of the protoss.
On December 08 2010 11:26 DoomFox wrote: This only works because Blizzard designed zealots using real life logic.
Imagine you were a zealot. The second you saw 8 zerglings barreling towards you and you were by yourself you would run tail immediately, hence not being able to hold position. But if you had a buddy with you (another zealot) he wouldn't hesitate for a second and push you right up against the door and sacrifice your ass to save himself and the rest of the protoss.
your logic is flawed. a zealot would never run if given an order to hold. he wouldnt even run against a thousand mutalisks. you need to study starcraft lore!
I just pretend zealots became sissies ever since getting owned in Broodwar. And in-game zealots actually do run when attacked by mutas lol. Just saying.
I believe some top players know about this for quite a while. If you watch Sen stream regularly, you will see him always try to right click behind the wall at ramp be it zealot or probe. And I've seen him success a few time breaking in Protoss base.
On December 08 2010 11:26 DoomFox wrote: This only works because Blizzard designed zealots using real life logic.
Imagine you were a zealot. The second you saw 8 zerglings barreling towards you and you were by yourself you would run tail immediately, hence not being able to hold position. But if you had a buddy with you (another zealot) he wouldn't hesitate for a second and push you right up against the door and sacrifice your ass to save himself and the rest of the protoss.
If this doesn't get fixed, early pools are going to be so common in ZvP. 6pools will be rampant and protoss players will have to develop some sick probe micro or be forced to completely wall off.
On December 08 2010 11:26 DoomFox wrote: This only works because Blizzard designed zealots using real life logic.
Imagine you were a zealot. The second you saw 8 zerglings barreling towards you and you were by yourself you would run tail immediately, hence not being able to hold position. But if you had a buddy with you (another zealot) he wouldn't hesitate for a second and push you right up against the door and sacrifice your ass to save himself and the rest of the protoss.
"WE CANNOT HOLD (POSITION) !!!!"
Toss proceeds to -________- '
hahaha! This is a pretty gamebreaking bug, in all seriousness.
This only works depending on the positioning, there are safe ways to wall, even vs this, I just tested this for a while with some friends. Even if your wall-in with your zealot isn't positioned perfectly, you can delay the zerg's ability to do this by spamming the hold-position command(the zealot still attacks while you do this)
There are already two posts on the official forums about this. Enforce the posts there, please. If you don't wanna do it for you do it for....for aiur? :D
On December 08 2010 12:01 Holy.BR wrote: noobs, this only work when you dont press h, its pretty obvious sorry if someone already posted it.
Please at least give this man at least a warning for not even reading the OP. (-_-')
i read it.
As a protoss player, walling your ramp with two buildings and a zealot is pretty standard in ZvP. Every zerg player has experienced the frustration of being unable to bypass the hold positionzealot.
On December 08 2010 12:01 Holy.BR wrote: noobs, this only work when you dont press h, its pretty obvious sorry if someone already posted it.
I dont want to insult you or anything, but do you really think you're smarter than the other people who have posted in the 11 pages this thread has? when the zealot isnt on hold it will just walk out toward the zerglings, not get pushed in, try it yourself since you think you're smarter than everyone else.
On December 08 2010 11:58 Newguy wrote: This only works depending on the positioning, there are safe ways to wall, even vs this, I just tested this for a while with some friends. Even if your wall-in with your zealot isn't positioned perfectly, you can delay the zerg's ability to do this by spamming the hold-position command(the zealot still attacks while you do this)
On December 08 2010 12:08 blade55555 wrote: if you try to run your lings past wont' most toss players have a sentry? lol nullifies the lings running by anyway.
So with this "gamebreaking" technique, zerg players would try rushing out enough lings to break past the first zealot before the cybercore can finish.
On December 08 2010 11:26 DoomFox wrote: This only works because Blizzard designed zealots using real life logic.
Imagine you were a zealot. The second you saw 8 zerglings barreling towards you and you were by yourself you would run tail immediately, hence not being able to hold position. But if you had a buddy with you (another zealot) he wouldn't hesitate for a second and push you right up against the door and sacrifice your ass to save himself and the rest of the protoss.
your logic is flawed. a zealot would never run if given an order to hold. he wouldnt even run against a thousand mutalisks. you need to study starcraft lore!
I second that :O. My zealots never run against mutalisks. They just keep killing drone after drone >=D
I just tried this out, it works when there is only 1 zealot blocking. However, when a second Zealot is added, it does not seem to work. Be nice to keep this in, to force Protoss uses to make a second Zealot.
Lol i bet with a few more zealots the wall will hold. I wouldn't freak out. Takes a lot for a zerg player to want to make that many zerglings to try to get in... Kinda feels all-inish so I wouldn't freak out. The same thing happened in bw. Granted queens accelerate this rapidly, but still... It can be stopped. Just get a sentry or something...
On December 08 2010 12:09 dtz wrote: hehe considering how gamebreaking this is , the Ps are staying relatively classy.
It's because Toss is the nerdy little weakling of SC2, who gets picked on by his abusive older brothers Zerg and Terran. No matter how much he cries Zerg and Terran can always whine louder so that Momma Blizzard can't even hear lil' baby Toss crying in the fetal position in the corner as the wreck that he is. The only way lil' Toss can get Momma's attention is by way of cheesey void ray, DT, Zealot or cannon rushes, and that makes Momma get mad at Toss and just take them away, leaving him completely helpless.
This ridiculous exploit is just another kick in the groin to Toss by older brother Zerg. I'd rage but if I did that then Momma Blizzard would nerf Toss and buff Terran again.
On December 08 2010 12:09 dtz wrote: hehe considering how gamebreaking this is , the Ps are staying relatively classy.
It's because Toss is the nerdy little weakling of SC2, who gets picked on by his abusive older brothers Zerg and Terran. No matter how much he cries Zerg and Terran can always whine louder so that Momma Blizzard can't even hear lil' baby Toss crying in the fetal position in the corner as the wreck that he is. The only way lil' Toss can get Momma's attention is by way of cheesey void ray, DT, Zealot or cannon rushes, and that makes Momma get mad at Toss and just take them away, leaving him completely helpless.
This ridiculous exploit is just another kick in the groin to Toss by older brother Zerg. I'd rage but if I did that then Momma Blizzard would nerf Toss and buff Terran again.
Oh snap, played around with this for a few mins and didn't come up with any easy ways to prevent it. Putting units behind the blocker didn't seem to stop the moving, the same thing happened to a stalker and slight adjustments to the zealot position didn't seem to matter.
Still, you could just send lings to kill the zealot before. You'd loose 4 lings and one would be at half health when the zealot dies. So this could save you a couple lings when trying to get through such a wall. I'm not sure if it's a huge thing or not, I guess we'll just have to see.
Well, look on the bright side, at least it's not sc1 lings.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
On December 08 2010 12:09 dtz wrote: hehe considering how gamebreaking this is , the Ps are staying relatively classy.
It's because Toss is the nerdy little weakling of SC2, who gets picked on by his abusive older brothers Zerg and Terran. No matter how much he cries Zerg and Terran can always whine louder so that Momma Blizzard can't even hear lil' baby Toss crying in the fetal position in the corner as the wreck that he is. The only way lil' Toss can get Momma's attention is by way of cheesey void ray, DT, Zealot or cannon rushes, and that makes Momma get mad at Toss and just take them away, leaving him completely helpless.
This ridiculous exploit is just another kick in the groin to Toss by older brother Zerg. I'd rage but if I did that then Momma Blizzard would nerf Toss and buff Terran again.
LOL awesome truly. But seriously of course this is huge, explains so much...hopefully it will get patched asap
maybe we should start crying more like zerg! step it up Protoss players!
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
You're making zerg players look bad.
Clearly a hold position zealot should hold position. Clearly a race that relies on wall-ins as a defense should be able to wall in.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
if i could warn you i would... we all know that Sherlock, but it's besides the point of this whole thing.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
You're making zerg players look bad.
Clearly a hold position zealot should hold position. Clearly a race that relies on wall-ins as a defense should be able to wall in.
This needs to be fixed.
i dont want to let anyone look bad, the zealots quote that they cant hold, so its their fault anyways ;o
Hold position zealots wouldnt attack, since to attack they switch into the attack "stance" without moving, and when you retreat, they get back to the hold position stance. so you can attack the zealot, if he attacks back you can still runby.
The problem would require a rewritten AI, which Blizzard announces "soon". I don't see a fix anytime soon, and i have yet to see a Protoss, how knows what he's doing loose against such things.
edit to the person above me:
If you cant read between my lines just dont write anything.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
You're making zerg players look bad.
Clearly a hold position zealot should hold position. Clearly a race that relies on wall-ins as a defense should be able to wall in.
This needs to be fixed.
i dont want to let anyone look bad, the zealots quote that they cant hold, so its their fault anyways ;o
Hold position zealots wouldnt attack, since to attack they switch into the attack "stance" without moving, and when you retreat, they get back to the hold position stance. so you can attack the zealot, if he attacks back you can still runby.
The problem would require a rewritten AI, which Blizzard announces "soon". I don't see a fix anytime soon, and i have yet to see a Protoss, how knows what he's doing loose against such things.
Yeah, I really hate to say this but in the current environment, balance almost completely to the wayside, if you want a change, the amount of time it takes for it to be included in a patch is directly proportional to the number of players QQ, and the and dramatic effect of the QQ, saying Sc2 will be dead if this change goes through is more effective than now Zerg will lose the game etc.
Edit: on a side note, really the truth comes out that behind the psionic link between the Khala, and their strict warrior code. The Zealot is really a scared little girl inside that slowly inches back when faced against dogs slow enough so that you hopefully don't notice and see how scared he really is.
and Stalkers as we already know are like Zealots, scared (hence blink) but at least for good reason, they are disabled veterans that didnt get no benefits T T.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
You're making zerg players look bad.
Clearly a hold position zealot should hold position. Clearly a race that relies on wall-ins as a defense should be able to wall in.
This needs to be fixed.
i dont want to let anyone look bad, the zealots quote that they cant hold, so its their fault anyways ;o
Hold position zealots wouldnt attack, since to attack they switch into the attack "stance" without moving, and when you retreat, they get back to the hold position stance. so you can attack the zealot, if he attacks back you can still runby.
The problem would require a rewritten AI, which Blizzard announces "soon". I don't see a fix anytime soon, and i have yet to see a Protoss, how knows what he's doing loose against such things.
Er I hope you mean hold position zealots won't come out to attack. I assure you, if you run your zergling up to my hold position zealot, he'll attack you when you are in range.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
You're making zerg players look bad.
Clearly a hold position zealot should hold position. Clearly a race that relies on wall-ins as a defense should be able to wall in.
This needs to be fixed.
i dont want to let anyone look bad, the zealots quote that they cant hold, so its their fault anyways ;o
Hold position zealots wouldnt attack, since to attack they switch into the attack "stance" without moving, and when you retreat, they get back to the hold position stance. so you can attack the zealot, if he attacks back you can still runby.
The problem would require a rewritten AI, which Blizzard announces "soon". I don't see a fix anytime soon, and i have yet to see a Protoss, how knows what he's doing loose against such things.
Er I hope you mean hold position zealots won't come out to attack. I assure you, if you run your zergling up to my hold position zealot, he'll attack you when you are in range.
yes thats what i meant, but if you look closely they will switch between "attack hold" and hold position.
This is exactly how unit movement works. It's the same reason Terrans can move Tanks at Marine stim speed by surrounding the tank with marines, then stim moving the marines.
The radius of a Zergling is very small, therefore they can get through small gaps quite easily. This is what they're meant to do - be small, quick and dart through small holes you leave in your defense.
The complaint here is simply, I want to leave a Zealot there and forget about it, and someone figured out how to push my Zealot out of the way.
The reason the Zealot can be pushed is because the attacking player is actively ordering his units to PUSH your unit out of the way; and you are just attacking. Attacks do not push, so the force is not countered, and your zealot is moved.
The Zealot doesn't get instantly pushed, you just have to push back. Of course, you can't attack when you are pushing (and neither can the Zerglings).
At the end of the day, you are walling in with a movable ground unit. It's not a building. It's a movable unit. You should not expect a movable unit to act as a 1 square wall.
On December 08 2010 13:11 thenk wrote: At the end of the day, you are walling in with a movable ground unit. It's not a building. It's a movable unit. You should not expect a movable unit to act as a 1 square wall.
When it's your only form of defense early on, without completely walling in and having to later destroy your own buildings? Yes. Protoss isn't terran, they can't lower their depots or lift buildings.
On December 08 2010 12:32 Clcsed wrote: I must be doing it wrong because zerglings can't get through any of these openings...: http://imgur.com/kNrsa.jpg
Whenever i play PvZ I do the same type of wall in :D
On December 08 2010 13:11 thenk wrote: Um.. what are you guys talking about?
This is exactly how unit movement works. It's the same reason Terrans can move Tanks at Marine stim speed by surrounding the tank with marines, then stim moving the marines.
The radius of a Zergling is very small, therefore they can get through small gaps quite easily. This is what they're meant to do - be small, quick and dart through small holes you leave in your defense.
The complaint here is simply, I want to leave a Zealot there and forget about it, and someone figured out how to push my Zealot out of the way.
The reason the Zealot can be pushed is because the attacking player is actively ordering his units to PUSH your unit out of the way; and you are just attacking. Attacks do not push, so the force is not countered, and your zealot is moved.
The Zealot doesn't get instantly pushed, you just have to push back. Of course, you can't attack when you are pushing (and neither can the Zerglings).
At the end of the day, you are walling in with a movable ground unit. It's not a building. It's a movable unit. You should not expect a movable unit to act as a 1 square wall.
There are some very fundamental problems with being able to push things out of the way.
For example, why can this zealot be pushed, but my command center can't crush a zergling by landing on it? It's a movable unit, and my command center is MASSIVE compared to that stupid zergling.
The answer to this and a whole lot of other scenarios is: Balance.
doing some testing, +1 melee allows 4 banelings to bust a zealot rather than 5. Also if a terran has a rax sandwiched in between two supplies, if you target the rax both supplies will get hit, 5 banelings can potentially destroy 2 supplies or 1 supply and an add-on in one.
I'm on my iPhone so I will update the OP there to give credit to stratos and the op of this thread when I get to a comp at the airport right now lol. I just copied and pasted to get the info out on those forums. No intention of making it seem that I discovered this.
So...now I am legitimately afraid for PvZ and getting 6 pooled every single game...Sigh...Good call though. I might stick with Terran for now then...Seeing as how this got 13 pages within the first day of posting, it seems that many people have noticed it and will exploit it.
On December 08 2010 14:16 Wolkenritter wrote: So...now I am legitimately afraid for PvZ and getting 6 pooled every single game...Sigh...Good call though. I might stick with Terran for now then...Seeing as how this got 13 pages within the first day of posting, it seems that many people have noticed it and will exploit it.
Most methods of dealing with 6 pool do not involve relying on the zealot block because the zerglings get there before you could possibely have a zealot out. Usually it involves building + cannon or building into zealots blocks.
On December 08 2010 14:16 Wolkenritter wrote: So...now I am legitimately afraid for PvZ and getting 6 pooled every single game...Sigh...Good call though. I might stick with Terran for now then...Seeing as how this got 13 pages within the first day of posting, it seems that many people have noticed it and will exploit it.
6 pool shows up before the first zealot is out so it does not really change how a toss defends 6 pool. It is however a matchup changing/breaking bug. I play zerg, but i really dont want a bug like this around. Goodbye protoss tech plays.
On December 08 2010 14:54 travis wrote: i played like 15 games tonight
over and over zergs were trying to do this to me
mostly they failed. but i could tell they were trying
I don't know how people can take enjoyment out of 5 minute games... even if you win with something like this, how can you take any joy out of it? It's not like you out-played your opponent..
On December 08 2010 14:54 travis wrote: i played like 15 games tonight
over and over zergs were trying to do this to me
mostly they failed. but i could tell they were trying
how did you prevent it from happening man? Well if you did anything at all I mean? Please share if it is something we can all use
I'm pretty sure that if you just spam hold and/or stop you should/might be okay. The game engine puts your unit onto some sort of stopped attack, which you can interrupt by spamming stop/hold
On December 08 2010 14:54 travis wrote: i played like 15 games tonight
over and over zergs were trying to do this to me
mostly they failed. but i could tell they were trying
how did you prevent it from happening man? Well if you did anything at all I mean? Please share if it is something we can all use
nothing i just think they werent very good at it. so they kept not getting by, and instead just pressing the lings up against my zeals and losing them.
When I tried testing this, both my partner and I couldn't make the zealot move with slow zerglings, we could only get it to move with speed lings. Is this happening to anyone else or is there just something we are doing wrong?
I was watching HuK play and I noticed vs zergs he made a pylon at the bottom of his ramp and used a zea/other unit to wall it off. He never did this vs any other matchup and it was always when the zerg started running with lings towards his base. I also noticed him spamming the hold position/attack when lings were trying to break in. Don't know if its been discussed but just saying what I saw that looks to be a solution.
There are ways around that and no wall should be foolproof anyways, and vs a normal 14 gas/14 pool build you have at least 1 sentry out anyway, so unless you get early pooled it doesnt matter at all. and if he sacs econ in favour of trying to get through, you can always place an additional pylon at your ramp.
edit:
and i have yet to see any good player using this. Its known for a while, but most of the time not worth it.
are u a kid or something? toss are SUPPOSE to be able to zealot wall off and defend if not speedlings will be just overpowering, coming in and killing probes leaving unharm while the toss is moving towards ur base.... i suspect you try to do 9 pool every game and lose due to wall in...
If you just A-move lings at a zealot wall, a zealot will kill 3 lings before dieing. This formation http://imgur.com/3xGpm.jpg is shown in the 2nd half of the OP's replay...and his zealot killed 3 lings. Please stop this thread.
On December 08 2010 15:52 Leviwtf wrote: I was watching HuK play and I noticed vs zergs he made a pylon at the bottom of his ramp and used a zea/other unit to wall it off. He never did this vs any other matchup and it was always when the zerg started running with lings towards his base. I also noticed him spamming the hold position/attack when lings were trying to break in. Don't know if its been discussed but just saying what I saw that looks to be a solution.
pretty sure huk is doing this just to get the pylon up at the bottom of the ramp so he can place buildings down there and get an expo up and running
Firstly, it can be prevented. The Zealot will not move if it's on hold position. I do not mean if you have put him on hold position, but rather if you keep hold position held down or clicked every ~one second, else the zealot goes in to attack mode and get pushed. Also this is not an unfair advantage since the zerg can't do anything else under this time either since he's spamming move commands.
There's a risk in it, if the above happens, you've thrown away time, lings and attention on trying to get through.
It is not really more cost efficient than just right clicking the zealot, you gain time by running through, but you spend apm and attention.
This gives zerg a way to scout a bit better with lings, something that is needed for all races. The game will NOT become better if everyone is forced to play in the dark compared to playing with scouting. This issue is getting covered for toss in next patch with quitter illu and cheaper observers.
Imo, it's a 'bug' you could leave in. If you see a lot of lings outside your base and all you have is 1 zealot, chances are you're going to want to throw down a full wall in the meanwhile.
Hold position means that your zealot will not move away from its current position in order to attack. in order words, it is unable to move away from the spot unless it is told to move position.
The problem here is that by forcing zerglings to be move commanded spam, the lings are somehow able to push the zealot just slightly enough to allow units to slip by the zealot. The zealot is still on hold position the entire time. This is definitely a bug and defeats the purpose of hold position.
This happened to me to on blistering sands, i eventually lost the game due to the econd damage he managed to do with 10 zerglings...I asked him at the end how he managed to get by a perfect zealot on hold postion he said that he doesn't know...but i thought at the time it was weird how he just ramed the zealot with out attacking...
On December 08 2010 14:54 travis wrote: i played like 15 games tonight
over and over zergs were trying to do this to me
mostly they failed. but i could tell they were trying
I don't know how people can take enjoyment out of 5 minute games... even if you win with something like this, how can you take any joy out of it? It's not like you out-played your opponent..
If you defeat your opponet, you have outplayed him.
On December 08 2010 16:29 Rosvall wrote: Well, there's a few things about this.
Firstly, it can be prevented. The Zealot will not move if it's on hold position. I do not mean if you have put him on hold position, but rather if you keep hold position held down or clicked every ~one second, else the zealot goes in to attack mode and get pushed. Also this is not an unfair advantage since the zerg can't do anything else under this time either since he's spamming move commands.
There's a risk in it, if the above happens, you've thrown away time, lings and attention on trying to get through.
It is not really more cost efficient than just right clicking the zealot, you gain time by running through, but you spend apm and attention.
This gives zerg a way to scout a bit better with lings, something that is needed for all races. The game will NOT become better if everyone is forced to play in the dark compared to playing with scouting. This issue is getting covered for toss in next patch with quitter illu and cheaper observers.
Imo, it's a 'bug' you could leave in. If you see a lot of lings outside your base and all you have is 1 zealot, chances are you're going to want to throw down a full wall in the meanwhile.
Time wise it's the same. This changes absolutely nothing...please end this post
while its nice to know that so many players read teamliquid that a move like that goes viral in less than a day. it sucks to be p now. im only gold, but forge expand seems to work if ure on a favorable map. that's just my opinion =/
On December 08 2010 14:54 travis wrote: i played like 15 games tonight
over and over zergs were trying to do this to me
mostly they failed. but i could tell they were trying
I don't know how people can take enjoyment out of 5 minute games... even if you win with something like this, how can you take any joy out of it? It's not like you out-played your opponent..
If you defeat your opponet, you have outplayed him.
where did you hear that obviously wrong statement?
On December 08 2010 03:42 Azide wrote: not sure why you would post this on a popular forum if its indeed true. now we're gonna get raped. if you were a zerg player i could understand....
shoulda just submitted it to blizz if anything
lol especially if he is a zerg he shouldnt have post it. then he could have abused it forever without people reporting it^^
On December 08 2010 14:54 travis wrote: i played like 15 games tonight
over and over zergs were trying to do this to me
mostly they failed. but i could tell they were trying
I don't know how people can take enjoyment out of 5 minute games... even if you win with something like this, how can you take any joy out of it? It's not like you out-played your opponent..
If you defeat your opponet, you have outplayed him.
oh dear, you are totaly wrong... so you think if you maphack and defeat your opponent with that, that you outplayed him? %D
or if you bug-abuse like that, that you outplayed him?
i have so many reason why i hate zerg and this will just add to it, i play terran but the spike im gonna seee in zerg players in the next week or so is gonna make me take a vaction till they patch this.
On December 08 2010 21:48 Hyperionnn wrote: If this stuff was about zerg, there would be 50 pages of "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD ZERG SUCKS U CANT DO ANYTHING" comments here
Just thought I should note, this doesn't work on corner to corner walls. Only on walls w/ some amount of space between the zealot and the wall. It also doesn't work w/ 2 zealots in the other walls.
On December 08 2010 04:02 ppshchik wrote: If only you notified us earlier, Fruitdealer would've won Game 5....
The thing about doing exploits like this in the GSL is that its very dishonorable to win by a unit exploit like that, he'd probably be shunned from the korean sc community. :S
On December 08 2010 04:02 ppshchik wrote: If only you notified us earlier, Fruitdealer would've won Game 5....
The thing about doing exploits like this in the GSL is that its very dishonorable to win by a unit exploit like that, he'd probably be shunned from the korean sc community. :S
HongUn did an exploit (using a pylon to pass through a ramp cannon wall-in in a number of his matches vs Zerg, allowing him free scouting basically.
This is going to be patched in 1.2, so blizzard considers it an exploit.
Yeah i've done some test with a protoss partner, it's doesn't work on every type of wall. Sometimes it's about the position of the zealot to, sometimes if there are some other zealot behind it feels like they fuck it up. It's weird.
Anyway it sucks, the zealot shouldn't move at all.
But, i find a interesting fact. When you order a move behind a wall, the group of gling mix it self. So if you spam s/move, you'll have two different zergling to hit the zealot each time, you can avoid almost any kill while hitting the zealot slowly but surely. So if the protoss don't have anything behind to shoot, it can be useful. Well, i don't know, we'll have to wait for bliz to fix that bug first to be able to test it, cause i don't want to be insulted of cheater/lamer etc... ^^
On December 08 2010 21:48 Hyperionnn wrote: If this stuff was about zerg, there would be 50 pages of "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD ZERG SUCKS U CANT DO ANYTHING" comments here
On December 08 2010 21:48 Hyperionnn wrote: If this stuff was about zerg, there would be 50 pages of "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD ZERG SUCKS U CANT DO ANYTHING" comments here
On December 08 2010 21:48 Hyperionnn wrote: If this stuff was about zerg, there would be 50 pages of "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD ZERG SUCKS U CANT DO ANYTHING" comments here
Haha it's so true it's funny.
not true, and not funny
you are a zerg of course it is not funny for you
how is this as substantial as removing zerg AA and telling zerg to go hit a button 50 times??
On December 08 2010 21:48 Hyperionnn wrote: If this stuff was about zerg, there would be 50 pages of "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD ZERG SUCKS U CANT DO ANYTHING" comments here
Haha it's so true it's funny.
not true, and not funny
you are a zerg of course it is not funny for you
how is this as substantial as removing zerg AA and telling zerg to go hit a button 50 times??
both of these stuff are removed, learn to read before posting or never post
And with this bullshit, zerg can end a game before any stalker pops when toss goes gate first and zergs can still say Z SUCKS because a goddamn whiner named idra always says z sucks
On December 08 2010 21:48 Hyperionnn wrote: If this stuff was about zerg, there would be 50 pages of "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD ZERG SUCKS U CANT DO ANYTHING" comments here
Haha it's so true it's funny.
not true, and not funny
you are a zerg of course it is not funny for you
how is this as substantial as removing zerg AA and telling zerg to go hit a button 50 times??
Right, gamebreaking exploit is nothing compared to slight nerf to 1 unit and need to make few more clicks. Zerg bias is so biased.
The funniest part is that some Zerg players seem to think Protoss and Terran users don't press a button for each unit they produce.
I've always used two lots so that a drone isn't sent in my base by clicking the minerals...
Funny enough, I had someone suicide a lot of lings not too long ago. I imagine that this was his goal. I already had a sentry out, though....so I would have thrown down a FF if I saw the lot die/move.
Oh? Building 2 zealots instead of 1 while the zerg basically all-in's with mass zerglings is broken?
You should be happy for free wins.
If zerg "basically all-in's" with mass lings P players are DEAD if there's no wall. Even if we 10 gate 12 gate chronoboosting zealots.
You need to learn some stuff about the game, asap. You are not suggesting that Z should be able and "have the right" to run with 24 speedlings in P's base in 4 minutes gametime for the game to be balanced. Right? Please tell me you did not meant this.
Many of the best protoss players I see don't even make a wall at the ramp. I only see this becoming a problem in lower leagues. Still, it would probably be best for blizzard to fix it..
Also, has anyone tried with three zealots holding a ramp? or however many it is for sc2..
On December 09 2010 02:50 etceteraetcetera wrote: Many of the best protoss players I see don't even make a wall at the ramp. I only see this becoming a problem in lower leagues. Still, it would probably be best for blizzard to fix it..
Also, has anyone tried with three zealots holding a ramp? or however many it is for sc2..
Lol, They only don't make Walls against Protoss or Terran, against Zerg not walling in is simply suicide.
Just make a wall in like this, me and a friend tested it and it was the only wall-in that worked. He couldn't get by after trying for a good minute or two. The zealot pushed back a little bit but there was no room to get by, and the amount of time it took to push the zealot back wouldn't be worth it anyway.
Another thing to do is sometimes toss players (like me) forget to make the zealot hold position, so you can draw him out and then run in Also, I tested this and it didn't seem to work, but I remember it happening to me before in game though.
On December 09 2010 15:31 Dstnb3 wrote: Just make a wall in like this, me and a friend tested it and it was the only wall-in that worked. He couldn't get by after trying for a good minute or two. The zealot pushed back a little bit but there was no room to get by, and the amount of time it took to push the zealot back wouldn't be worth it anyway.
On December 09 2010 15:31 Dstnb3 wrote: Just make a wall in like this, me and a friend tested it and it was the only wall-in that worked. He couldn't get by after trying for a good minute or two. The zealot pushed back a little bit but there was no room to get by, and the amount of time it took to push the zealot back wouldn't be worth it anyway.
Im going to try that wall off and see if I can get a stalker and immortal through, this is a very disturbing situation as it would be near impossible to stop fast pool all ins.
On December 09 2010 15:31 Dstnb3 wrote: Just make a wall in like this, me and a friend tested it and it was the only wall-in that worked. He couldn't get by after trying for a good minute or two. The zealot pushed back a little bit but there was no room to get by, and the amount of time it took to push the zealot back wouldn't be worth it anyway.
Part of me thinks that this showing right NOW is just God punishing Protoss players for the pheonix buff. You get to lift my drones more, I get to break your walls.
And then I realize that this is definitely a bug. A bug which I may use on the ladder once or twice, just to see. But then back to 14 pool 16 hatch
On December 08 2010 07:50 Marcury wrote: Wall off with zealot next to gateway and not cyber core. Cybercore is actually a little smaller than the gateway if you look at the circle. I just tested it and the zlot died before getting pushed out of the way when you wall off with the zealot next to gateway, however in the replay the zealot was next to a cybernetics.
Can someone please show me a replay of zerglings breaking the wall-in I described, cause I've tested it twice and it's not breakable.
On December 09 2010 15:31 Dstnb3 wrote: Just make a wall in like this, me and a friend tested it and it was the only wall-in that worked. He couldn't get by after trying for a good minute or two. The zealot pushed back a little bit but there was no room to get by, and the amount of time it took to push the zealot back wouldn't be worth it anyway.
yes, and this works because there is a 1 square wide, at least 2 square long pathway. if you place a zaelot in this pathway, he will only be moved to one side of the path, but still no zerglings can go through.
On December 09 2010 15:31 Dstnb3 wrote: Just make a wall in like this, me and a friend tested it and it was the only wall-in that worked. He couldn't get by after trying for a good minute or two. The zealot pushed back a little bit but there was no room to get by, and the amount of time it took to push the zealot back wouldn't be worth it anyway.
well that explains why i've been constantly losing to lings lately.
just read the whole thread, a few thoughts...
1. stop shooting the messenger. a single secret complaint lobbed at blizzard won't get the problem fixed. software companies prioritize bug fixes based on how severe the impact is, and the only way to convince them that this will have a severe impact is by revealing it publicly and making a huge fuss about it.
2. it's often taken a long time for blizz to fix bugs -- remember the graviton bug a couple months ago? we're probably going to need to find a solution for ourselves.
3. any solution would need to cost more or less the same resources as the current standard wall build would cost, because zerg has many timing options for lings, and the wall-in is the only practical one. stop suggesting placing a second zealot or a sentry or a stalker. the two-pylon solution is better than nothing, but definitely susceptible to baneling bust.
5. blizz fixed the mineral boosting bug even though the only "real" problem with it was that it required you to spam if you wanted to keep up. by that same reasoning, even if spamming H on your zealot is enough to keep you safe, it needs to be fixed.
I'm not understanding why the full wall-in is not a valid strategy. Worst case scenario, let's say you didn't scout and you see lings coming up your ramp, why is it not possible to jux leave a probe near your zealot and throw up a full wall-in? If a zerg saw that they'd likely turn around and you can cancel the pylon after they leave. If they keep trying to attack you, let it finish. Let's be realistic if he's been attacking you long enough for a pylon to be finish then the zealot wall in would not have held anyways. Seems reasonable to me without changing the game dramatically. I could be missing some obvious fact so feel free to correct me, but in my head this makes sense.
On December 08 2010 07:50 Marcury wrote: Wall off with zealot next to gateway and not cyber core. Cybercore is actually a little smaller than the gateway if you look at the circle. I just tested it and the zlot died before getting pushed out of the way when you wall off with the zealot next to gateway, however in the replay the zealot was next to a cybernetics.
Can someone please show me a replay of zerglings breaking the wall-in I described, cause I've tested it twice and it's not breakable.
You could actually be correct. I've an example (the single time I've (ab)used this technique) of pushing past two zealots next to a cybercore, but not at a gateway. I post for those curious of seeing it in action anyway.
Check at 9-minutes, after the 4-gate-into-hidden-expo-attack gets crushed.
To be honest, most of the time you don't even need this trick. I'm about 215th in the us ladder as zerg, and if the protoss has 2 zealots or fewer a bunch of zerglings can just kill them pretty easily.
its the cybercore \ gateway placement, i have noticed most people have their wall where the zealot and the cybercore arent touching, actually im going to look at my replays and see if i do that O.o
The following changes should be implemented when the PTR returns: • Fixed a pathing issue that units can push an opponent's units. • SCVs can no longer continue construction on a building from inside of an adjacent bunker. • Fixed an issue where SCVs can keep repairing at a short range even though the structure they are repairing is blocked by force fields.
The following changes should be implemented when the PTR returns: • Fixed a pathing issue that units can push an opponent's units. • SCVs can no longer continue construction on a building from inside of an adjacent bunker. • Fixed an issue where SCVs can keep repairing at a short range even though the structure they are repairing is blocked by force fields.
I'm fine with this change, it might make some excellently-well controlled scv/marine balls very strong, but I don't know how to deal with this, right now I haven't seen anybody actually be able to control it that well and for whatever reason qxc, who loves to practice awesome micro (even makes maps for it) I've never seen 2-rax all-in in a tournament game.
This is such bs... I'm gonna have to watch the replay though but we need to be able to def against really early lings though but yeah.. Hope it's not that bad.
The following changes should be implemented when the PTR returns: • Fixed a pathing issue that units can push an opponent's units. • SCVs can no longer continue construction on a building from inside of an adjacent bunker. • Fixed an issue where SCVs can keep repairing at a short range even though the structure they are repairing is blocked by force fields.
I'm fine with this change, it might make some excellently-well controlled scv/marine balls very strong, but I don't know how to deal with this, right now I haven't seen anybody actually be able to control it that well and for whatever reason qxc, who loves to practice awesome micro (even makes maps for it) I've never seen 2-rax all-in in a tournament game.
The following changes should be implemented when the PTR returns: • Fixed a pathing issue that units can push an opponent's units. • SCVs can no longer continue construction on a building from inside of an adjacent bunker. • Fixed an issue where SCVs can keep repairing at a short range even though the structure they are repairing is blocked by force fields.
I'm fine with this change, it might make some excellently-well controlled scv/marine balls very strong, but I don't know how to deal with this, right now I haven't seen anybody actually be able to control it that well and for whatever reason qxc, who loves to practice awesome micro (even makes maps for it) I've never seen 2-rax all-in in a tournament game.
guess you haven't watched the GSL at all.
He was saying he's never seen qxc use a 2-rax all in..
Its a bug clearly as yet I have seen no one reproduce it consistently. Its an intriguing find but I've already seen this happen in pro tourneys including GSL, no one really paid much notice to it.
Yeah, I feel the same as many do: it's hard to do to become a reliable strat to use regularly. Especially with the patch coming, it doesn't seem worth the time to attempt to practice and become reliable with it.
Great find, and glad it's being fixed (even as a zerg player), I think it takes away from the game.
what is wrong about my wall? i thought this little bug was fixed in patch 1.2 but it looks like those runbys are still possible. i hope it's just me doing sth wrong with that wall.
what is wrong about my wall? i thought this little bug was fixed in patch 1.2 but it looks like those runbys are still possible. i hope it's just me doing sth wrong with that wall.
please help.
Please rewatch your own replays and compare it to the bug at hand ><... as can been seen in the bug, the zerglings would "push" the zealot away from his held position. In your case, the zerglings ran under, proving there to be a hole in your wall, which need to be filled by a second zeal, a sentry, or a stalker (remove current zealot at wall).
@DarKcS i just made a costum game and created the same wall like i did in the replay. a probe was not able to pass. @ Shinshady i actually rewatched it several times and i read all i could find about this issue before registering here
on metalopolis, there are 2 starting locations in which you can make a gap with gateway and core that is 3x1. here zerglings cannot pass i think but in the button position and the left position its not possible to make a gap that is 3x1 with just gateway and core. the gap will be only 1x1. and thats what happened in my replay where the zerglings ran by. i am wondering if you need to make a different wall on these starting locations.
i found out that my zealot was not positioned correctly. in this little gaps he has to be positioned exaxtly or otherwise probes can pass. i can't see it without testing with probe. i think i will have to test it in every pvz.
Regarding testing walls with probes, you should be wary of using that as an absolute measure. I've heard of cases where probes don't fit through, but lings can... though it could have just been my opponent lying.
In a recent ZvP my I slipped lings through my opponent's zeal wall (with a single click past), and he said it had been tested with a probe.
i just tested it on the map 'hard counter' (unit tester map).
it's really possible to run by with zerglings when probes can't.
seems only to be the case when theres a diagonal 1x1 gap which will be there depending on the starting location only using core/gate at the front. this can be fixed with a pylon to a 3x1 gap which i recommend to everyone.
I mean blizzard ffs. how fucking hard is it to fix this? how many god damn games I have to lose because of this. I'm not about to start walling off completely or fortress around by nexus.
what some of you seem to not understand is that the way sc2 is made a protoss without his wall early on will lose 100% of the games vs zerg. and yet still some of you are acting like 15yo kiddos who found the next trick like this is something legit. even if it works, no one should use it as it is a complete game breaker. not funny, not witty, not anything, just pure idiocy from those who brought it into light and those embracing it.
On January 27 2011 21:09 shaman6ix wrote: what some of you seem to not understand is that the way sc2 is made a protoss without his wall early on will lose 100% of the games vs zerg. and yet still some of you are acting like 15yo kiddos who found the next trick like this is something legit. even if it works, no one should use it as it is a complete game breaker. not funny, not witty, not anything, just pure idiocy from those who brought it into light and those embracing it.
What are you talking about. You do what you can within the game's engine to win. That's how mutalisk stacking, stop lurkers, and mineral jumping are still legitimate moves. So is (was) this one. It's up to Blizzard to remove whatever is game-breaking.
On January 27 2011 21:09 shaman6ix wrote: what some of you seem to not understand is that the way sc2 is made a protoss without his wall early on will lose 100% of the games vs zerg. and yet still some of you are acting like 15yo kiddos who found the next trick like this is something legit. even if it works, no one should use it as it is a complete game breaker. not funny, not witty, not anything, just pure idiocy from those who brought it into light and those embracing it.
What are you talking about. You do what you can within the game's engine to win. That's how mutalisk stacking, stop lurkers, and mineral jumping are still legitimate moves. So is (was) this one. It's up to Blizzard to remove whatever is game-breaking.
So abusing the invisible pylon on shakuras or the flowers on LT is/was ok too? There's a difference between mechanics and bugs - and units on hold position are not supposed to move. Therefore fixed.
At previous posters: the problem with some wall-offs is that maps aren't symmetrical. On some spots it's much harder to position the zealot correctly, but if you got some experience you should know when it is in the correct location. Sometimes you need to "wiggle" the zealot a little, moving back, forth, etc. a bit.
No problems folks. Just chrono boost the stalker out and place it next to the zealot, or if he goes for a fast pool then just make a 2gate opening and pressure him.¨
edit: oh wait, this ones better. Just use 2-3 probes to block it of.
what is wrong about my wall? i thought this little bug was fixed in patch 1.2 but it looks like those runbys are still possible. i hope it's just me doing sth wrong with that wall.
please help.
it looked to me like your zealot was back too far away from the gap. it needed to be up closer to where the ramp ends, at where the choke is the narrowest
well shit if the great lord huk let zerglings through it must be a bug. everyone knows top players never make mistakes. thanks for the bump on an irrelevant patched thread for that dude!
I think there are 2 issues. Maybe they fixed the moving the opponents units, but I have seen a few times in GSL and i believe even TSL where units will pop onto the other side of the zealot. It seems like the collision bugs out and doesnt know where else to put the unit, so it puts it on the other side.
On March 28 2011 22:01 jeremycafe wrote: I think there are 2 issues. Maybe they fixed the moving the opponents units, but I have seen a few times in GSL and i believe even TSL where units will pop onto the other side of the zealot. It seems like the collision bugs out and doesnt know where else to put the unit, so it puts it on the other side.
You can do it with Drones. Have a zergling or something attack the zealot and the drone can slide straight through. + Show Spoiler +
On March 28 2011 22:01 jeremycafe wrote: I think there are 2 issues. Maybe they fixed the moving the opponents units, but I have seen a few times in GSL and i believe even TSL where units will pop onto the other side of the zealot. It seems like the collision bugs out and doesnt know where else to put the unit, so it puts it on the other side.
You can do it with Drones. Have a zergling or something attack the zealot and the drone can slide straight through. + Show Spoiler +
Someone did it in a recent TSL match.
Drones can always pass through units if you send them to a mineral patch.
If you wall better, this won't happen. I've done extensive testing. It's frustrating, sure. Not only do your buildings have to be put in the right spot, but the zealot has to be in somewhat of a corridor.
EPT
