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So for my 1k post, I decided to announce a new all-in build. In BW, ZvP was a lot about zerg agression like 3 hatch hydra busts, and speedling all-ins, but I found that in sc2, there really weren't many of these types of builds, besides 6pool and 7pool.
Basically, this build makes the protoss player think you're going for a macro game, and so you often catch them off-gaurd. Here's the build order
15 hatch
14 pool
13 gas
drone to 15
15 ovie
2 lings to 17
queen at 17
Keep pumping out lings
Remember to pull drones off gas at 100, and get metabolic boost. Also, you have to put one ling each at the control towers, and stop all scouting. Once the metabolic is done, and you have lings after the first or 2 larvae injects and from the additional hatchery, attack. If the protoss did a 2 gate, this is almost an auto win. And if he pressures with zealots, its all the better because he won't have nearly enough zealots to block. However, this build won't work against a good forge fe, with a wall off because of the cannons. Also, against 1 gate core build, if he goes stalkers, keep pressuring and attack, you will eventually get through. If he gets sentries though, you have to wait untill he is out of position to get up the ramp, or it won't work.
Even if the toss has a good wall off with 1 or 2 zealots blocking the ramp, and 1 or 2 stalkers shooting at the lings, just keep pumping them out, and you will get through. Even if he has like 4-5 zealots from a 2 gate, keep attacking because he won't be able to make zealots nearly as fast as you make speedlings. If you see a good walled off forge fe, Just stop making lings, and drone up, and take a third expansion very quickly.
I searched on the search function things like "zvp all-in" "speedling all-in" and things like that, but I've never seen a build like this one. But if someone has already created this build, i'm very sorry, and i never meant to copy your work, and mods can feel free to shut this thread down.
I think this build could stop toss from controlling the early game so much, and really make toss players be wary of early zerg pressure. I think this build is kind of like the 3 hatch hydra bust in sc1.
Try this build and post feedback. I've tested this build a lot, but i won't get to play sc2 until november 6, because of SATs, so make adjustments and tell me what you think works best.
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Like most strategies, proof of concept really helps the idea. Do you have any replays of this working and not working?
Have you tried this in combination with baneling busts?
Also, do you get a second queen? If so, when?
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On October 15 2010 03:25 GosuSheep wrote:
Like most strategies, proof of concept really helps the idea. Do you have any replays of this working and not working?
Have you tried this in combination with baneling busts?
Also, do you get a second queen? If so, when?
You don't get a second queen, no banelings. And I don't have replays because I can't play at home. I have to go to the uni lab to play. But I am 1500 diamond, if that helps, even though i know 1500 diamond sucks
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I have doubts this build would work against many standard protoss builds, you need an awful lot of zerglings to break through a wall while you have stalkers and/or sentries + zealots in choke.
I'll even argue it'll be hard against 2gate aswell, as zealots can just fight 1v1 or 1v2 of your lings at their building choke.
I'm confused with the "new" tag of this ZvP tactic also, speedling all in is an old strat as far as i know, and most protosses account for it in their normal build.
I will say though I do this build when the protoss for some reason do not wall their choke, and rarely lose with it if they don't.
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A toss player will be able to wall or have sentries out by the time you get metabolic boost. You really need banelings to try and punch through this. Either way it is fairly silly to do because if it gets repelled you are at a considerable econ disadvantage.
You could speedling contain and take a third + mutas or hydra, but your econ will probably be fuxed for a bit while you try to drone up and if your speedlings fail to do at least a moderate amount of damage the toss should be able to catch back up.
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I've seen a few variations on this strategy since about early September. The basic theory is that you pump lings and drone like mad up till about 50 Slings on your way to hard-teching to Lair. The mass of lings handles most early pushes, and the ability to FE with Lair tech on the way and a transition into Mutas makes this a the beginnning of a simple Sling-Muta build, nothing special. This "all-in" (which has no all-in qualities except for not listing in the OP plans to do anything other than make Speedlings) basically just sends all the availiable Slings to harass, which they do effectively in numbers from 20-30 over 3-5 Zealots/Stalkers. The option is there to throw down a Baneling Nest if they wall off, but this build benefits from a Speedling run-by otherwise or mobbing their small army.
Throw in a Evolution Chamber and grab +1 melee attack or +1 carapace and you still have a very traditional build, although more effective than double in-base hatch IMO.
I'll try to find some replays of pure Speedling Harass that I've done and post them.
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Basically you would do this on hard-to-wall maps, preferably where the protoss player is quick expoing. Doing this against a 3/4 gating protoss generally fails unless the protoss makes some kind of error.
The build is not really new, its just one of a bunch of variants for mass zergling all-in. I've loss to this build going 1 gate expo forge, basically having 5 zealots against zerglings, but I think if you are aware of the threat, taking precautions and fending it off is no problem. Just need a good cannon zealot simcity (on maps like xelnaga or meta)
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Guys, just try it, exactly how i said it. I've tried this build on over 20 ladder games against toss, and it has worked all the time against a 2gate. Don't tech to lair, don't worry about a second queen, and don't worry about banelings.
And what makes this build new is that you do this from a 15 hatch. Toss players will suspect you to be trying to macro hard. All other speedling builds deal with 1 base play, but if a toss sees this, he could get suspicious.
Just try it out, exactly according to the build order. Even if a single zealot can block the wall, you will break through if you continue to pump lings unless the toss has sentries.
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I have a friend that used to do this exact build against me literally every time and I have never lost to it. If the protoss builds his base properly there is no amount of lings early game that will break it. Having said that, he got to about 1100 or so diamond with this build as well... and won like 30 of 35 games according to his match history. I think up until a certain level your opponents wont know how to deal with this, but I also think at a certain skill level your opponent will be able to stop/hold this without even changing his build order... at which point its near impossible for you (the zerg player) to win
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On October 15 2010 04:04 Tazza wrote:
Guys, just try it, exactly how i said it. I've tried this build on over 20 ladder games against toss, and it has worked all the time against a 2gate. Don't tech to lair, don't worry about a second queen, and don't worry about banelings.
And what makes this build new is that you do this from a 15 hatch. Toss players will suspect you to be trying to macro hard. All other speedling builds deal with 1 base play, but if a toss sees this, he could get suspicious.
Just try it out, exactly according to the build order. Even if a single zealot can block the wall, you will break through if you continue to pump lings unless the toss has sentries.
No, you post some replays.
We aren't trying to tell you that you are stupid or anything, but what you are doing isn't all that special and you are also depending on metagame (something that is only good if it doesn't get scouted).
Stronger players will recognize something isn't right. And with no clear transition plan I fail to see how this could work. If the toss goes 4gate, even the lower aggression versions of 4gate, he will be able to overpower you as you aren't droning and aren't making crawlers.
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Cool did something similar to this in GSL, except he used banes.
You're going to have problems with cannons if Toss went that route.
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On October 15 2010 04:16 hiddencamper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 04:04 Tazza wrote:
Guys, just try it, exactly how i said it. I've tried this build on over 20 ladder games against toss, and it has worked all the time against a 2gate. Don't tech to lair, don't worry about a second queen, and don't worry about banelings.
And what makes this build new is that you do this from a 15 hatch. Toss players will suspect you to be trying to macro hard. All other speedling builds deal with 1 base play, but if a toss sees this, he could get suspicious.
Just try it out, exactly according to the build order. Even if a single zealot can block the wall, you will break through if you continue to pump lings unless the toss has sentries. No, you post some replays. We aren't trying to tell you that you are stupid or anything, but what you are doing isn't all that special and you are also depending on metagame (something that is only good if it doesn't get scouted). Stronger players will recognize something isn't right. And with no clear transition plan I fail to see how this could work. If the toss goes 4gate, even the lower aggression versions of 4gate, he will be able to overpower you as you aren't droning and aren't making crawlers.
You are completely right except for one thing
Cheese = a strategy that depends on not getting scouted.
Metagame= making a decision based upon what your opponent is likely to do based on the current game environment. For instance, walling a ramp and chrono boosting zealots beacause zergling rushes and 6 pools are such incredibly common openers is an example of metagaming. 6 pooling or proxy gates is an example of cheese.
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On October 15 2010 04:16 hiddencamper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 04:04 Tazza wrote:
Guys, just try it, exactly how i said it. I've tried this build on over 20 ladder games against toss, and it has worked all the time against a 2gate. Don't tech to lair, don't worry about a second queen, and don't worry about banelings.
And what makes this build new is that you do this from a 15 hatch. Toss players will suspect you to be trying to macro hard. All other speedling builds deal with 1 base play, but if a toss sees this, he could get suspicious.
Just try it out, exactly according to the build order. Even if a single zealot can block the wall, you will break through if you continue to pump lings unless the toss has sentries. No, you post some replays. We aren't trying to tell you that you are stupid or anything, but what you are doing isn't all that special and you are also depending on metagame (something that is only good if it doesn't get scouted). Stronger players will recognize something isn't right. And with no clear transition plan I fail to see how this could work. If the toss goes 4gate, even the lower aggression versions of 4gate, he will be able to overpower you as you aren't droning and aren't making crawlers.
See that is the problem with new sc2 zerg players, and really a lot of the sc2 zerg players is that you are always trying to macro. This is an all-in build. I never said you could transition well after this. Just like you couldn't transition well after a 3 hatch hydra bust. What i said was, if you see a forge fe, stop zergling production, and get drones, and a third quickly. And I'm sorry I can't post a replay. But its just my situation right now. I've told you my exacty build order. I wouldn't make a post about this, without trying this extensively. And this comes way before a 4gate. And like I said, what makes this build different from other speedling builds is the 15 hatch.
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On October 15 2010 04:15 Jayrod wrote:
I have a friend that used to do this exact build against me literally every time and I have never lost to it. If the protoss builds his base properly there is no amount of lings early game that will break it. Having said that, he got to about 1100 or so diamond with this build as well... and won like 30 of 35 games according to his match history. I think up until a certain level your opponents wont know how to deal with this, but I also think at a certain skill level your opponent will be able to stop/hold this without even changing his build order... at which point its near impossible for you (the zerg player) to win
Yes, I completely agree with this. However, I'm not saying that players should use this every game. I'm simply saying that this would make toss players more wary of what they're doing in the early game against zerg now. And since this is a cheese, you should be able to block this without a problem. And you're friend did it all the time, you knew what to expect. But since you think he's gonna do this every game, what if he went for a 3 hatch before pool while you were waiting for the rush?
And this unexpectedness is what I want to create. If a macro zerg played against a toss, the toss will likely scout only once, believing the zerg will play macro after seeing a 15 hatch. And bam, the zerg has a bunch of lings on the ramp about to break it
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Sorry to poop on your parade, but it seems to me that any good protoss who scouts hatch first is going to immediately put down a forge and try and block your choke. While this all-in may actually be able to catch them off guard if you can prevent the choke block, any cannon cheese at your natural/choke is going to be a huge problem for lings to deal with. Additionally it will enable the protoss to easily defend against plenty of speedlings. I would suggest going pool first so that they don't forge.
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We are ZERG! We don't all-in!
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On October 15 2010 04:41 Wr3k wrote:
Sorry to poop on your parade, but it seems to me that any good protoss who scouts hatch first is going to immediately put down a forge and try and block your choke. While this all-in may actually be able to catch them off guard if you can prevent the choke block, any cannon cheese at your natural/choke is going to be a huge problem for lings to deal with. Additionally it will enable the protoss to easily defend against plenty of speedlings. I would suggest going pool first so that they don't forge.
What I do against that is, I pull about 7-8 drones off my mineral line, and attack the pylons or probes if i can, and wait for the lings. The toss will almost never get a cannon there if i do this
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As a Protoss player, if I see hatch before pool, I normally 4-gate all-in, and I think that would hard counter this Zergling-only all-in. Of course, I have no idea, since I have yet to see a replay...
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I have used a build very similiar to this in 2v2 matches before with split base. Typically toss will have 2 zealots and a stalker or so blocking a narrow choke. Sure your getting 2-1 ling to zealot ratio but your also beating down the buildings around choke. The problem for toss is that they expect you to back off with those first sets of lings. Yet when you keep attacking he'll realize that even at 2-1 ratio the zerglings start killing zealots faster than you can produce and have a serious chance to break through. That or if your choke is super tight for a 1v1 ratio you'll prolly find the pylon or other weak point at the choke going down before you have enough to stop the mass speedlings.
I had a partner blow up at me once cause he thought i was throwing away lings into this kind of choke, but when you kill those first 1-2 lots, well then its GG for the toss. The main reason this build works is because the toss feels safe behind his narrow choke and still gets the core and warpgate etc before getting the 3-4 gates he needs to hold the choke.
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Does larva production match income in this build? Or is there a surplus of some kind?
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EPT
