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Blizzard reverting some patch 1.2 changes - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
December 08 2010 21:01 GMT
#501
People calling -10 seconds on phoenix a minor change also probably considered +1 roach range a minor change.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
Fwiffo
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada57 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 05:09:23
December 09 2010 05:07 GMT
#502
On December 08 2010 04:25 YoiChiBow wrote:
...
colossi still move if fungaled since they are massive type


No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed.

Kitani
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States44 Posts
December 09 2010 05:36 GMT
#503
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....

Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912

On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.

Uh, no. Just no.

Roach
16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range
145 HP, armored biological

Marauder
10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range
125 HP, armored biological

Stalker
10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range
80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical

As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range.
Happy Ultralisk
rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
December 09 2010 05:38 GMT
#504
On December 09 2010 14:07 Fwiffo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 04:25 YoiChiBow wrote:
...
colossi still move if fungaled since they are massive type


No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed.



No... fungul ultras and watch them keep running.
Sweet.
brownymaster
Profile Joined August 2010
5 Posts
December 09 2010 05:41 GMT
#505
On December 09 2010 14:38 rackdude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 14:07 Fwiffo wrote:
On December 08 2010 04:25 YoiChiBow wrote:
...
colossi still move if fungaled since they are massive type


No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed.



No... fungul ultras and watch them keep running.


Ultras have frenzy (makes them immune to stun snares mind control etc). Don't apply that to every other unit that can get neuraled, stunned, snared, etc including other massive units.
Creation85
Profile Joined March 2010
51 Posts
December 09 2010 05:55 GMT
#506
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....

Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912

Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.

Uh, no. Just no.

Roach
16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range
145 HP, armored biological

Marauder
10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range
125 HP, armored biological

Stalker
10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range
80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical

As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range.


For better accuracy, you probably shouldn't forget that roaches cost less than a marauder, much less than a stalker, and since you said that marauders get stim and stalkers blink, I guess we give roaches burrow and burrow move too? And I think roaches build time is shorter than either. I agree that roaches shouldn't be changed, but don't say roaches got "the short end of the stick" based on some worthless calculations.
Piledriver
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1697 Posts
December 09 2010 06:17 GMT
#507
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....

Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912

Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.

Uh, no. Just no.

Roach
16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range
145 HP, armored biological

Marauder
10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range
125 HP, armored biological

Stalker
10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range
80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical

As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range.


All you guys need to stop using the term "DPS" (which is a stupid carryover from WoW anyway), stop theorycrafting, and actually play the game.

Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers.

Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided.
Envy fan since NTH.
Kitani
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States44 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 06:36:24
December 09 2010 06:33 GMT
#508
On December 09 2010 14:55 Creation85 wrote:
For better accuracy, you probably shouldn't forget that roaches cost less than a marauder, much less than a stalker, and since you said that marauders get stim and stalkers blink, I guess we give roaches burrow and burrow move too? And I think roaches build time is shorter than either. I agree that roaches shouldn't be changed, but don't say roaches got "the short end of the stick" based on some worthless calculations.


I was only calculating damage, range and health and added upgrades as possibilities.


Roach
75/25, 27 second build time, spawned from larva which are also used to create drones and overlords, thus possibly lowering the amount of roaches spawned.

Moving unburrowed, their speed is 2.25, 3 with glial reconstitution. Burrowed they move at 1.40, and 2.15 with glial reconstitution. Assuming they are on creep, the speed is 1.3x

145 HP with .273 HP/S regen, 5 when burrowed, 10 when burrowed with tunneling claws. Biological armored with 1 armor.

They do 8 DPS to ground targets at a maximum range of 4.


Marauder
100/25, 30 second build time, trained at a barracks.

Constant 2.25 speed, 3.375 speed for 12 seconds when stimmed.

125 HP, biological armored with 1 armor.

They do 6.66 DPS to non-armored ground targets, 13.33 DPS when stimmed. They also have +10 vs armored which translates to 13.33 DPS to armored ground targets, 26.66 DPS when stimmed, at a maximum range of 6. On top of this, they can also have concussive shells which slows a single non-massive target by 50%. Including upgrades, marauders can kite roaches just due to concussive shells.

Stalker
125/50, 42 second build time, 5 second warp in time, trained at the gateway/warped in via warp gate.

Constant 2.95 speed, however the blink ability can be used to teleport stalkers out of combat (10 second cooldown), and allows the stalkers to go up or down cliffs, however blink is limited by line of sight. Furthermore, if you remove upgrades from the equation, stalkers can kite roaches easily due to the speed difference.

80 shields, 80 HP. Shield regens 2 per second. Mechanical armored with 1 armor.

They do 6.94 DPS against non armored ground or aerial targets, and 9.72 DPS against armored ground or aerial targets, at a maximum range of 6.


So upgraded or not and not microed, when put at a distance of 10 from each other, the stalker or marauder would kill the roach every time. If you disregard "worthless calculations" and only think about how players utilizing the abilities of each, then roaches can be used on par with stalkers or marauders. However if you choose to think like that, then you'd have to factor in the possibility of ravens, observers, scanner sweeps, etc. since you know, players use those too.
Happy Ultralisk
RaNgeD
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States733 Posts
December 09 2010 06:35 GMT
#509
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....

Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912

Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.

Uh, no. Just no.

Roach
16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range
145 HP, armored biological

Marauder
10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range
125 HP, armored biological

Stalker
10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range
80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical

As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range.


Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though.
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 1 Corinthians 13:7
Kitani
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States44 Posts
December 09 2010 06:40 GMT
#510
On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote:
Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though.

True, something I addressed in the post after. Stalkers can hit air whereas marauders and roaches cannot. On top of that, roaches cost larva as well as resources. I'm not really sure where that puts marauders but they seem to take most of the hits for MMM bioballs.
Happy Ultralisk
DocM
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States212 Posts
December 09 2010 06:43 GMT
#511
For anyone saying this is a rather light patch, anyone familiar with the galaxy editor and who has perused the patch notes will know that this is not, in actuallity a light patch.
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
December 09 2010 06:54 GMT
#512
On December 09 2010 15:40 Kitani wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote:
Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though.

True, something I addressed in the post after. Stalkers can hit air whereas marauders and roaches cannot. On top of that, roaches cost larva as well as resources. I'm not really sure where that puts marauders but they seem to take most of the hits for MMM bioballs.


A stalker costs nearly twice a roach. The stalker better damn well beat the pants off a roach at any given time and day
Kitani
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States44 Posts
December 09 2010 06:57 GMT
#513
On December 09 2010 15:54 Dakkas wrote:
A stalker costs nearly twice a roach. The stalker better damn well beat the pants off a roach at any given time and day

In terms of versatility, stalkers are much more useful, yeah, and in a 1v1 it'll take down the roach, but when you get higher numbers of roaches and stalkers
On December 09 2010 15:17 Piledriver wrote:
Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers.

Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided.

Happy Ultralisk
Juffalo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States155 Posts
December 09 2010 07:00 GMT
#514
I think that the assumption of "omg blizzard is reacting to player feedback" is true is some cases but doesn't fully explain it. Blizzard probably also realized that some of these changes are retarded all on their ow.
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
December 09 2010 07:07 GMT
#515
roaches are about half the cost of a stalker though, and 2 roaches > 1 stalker.
FrostedMiniWeet
Profile Joined July 2009
United States636 Posts
December 10 2010 05:01 GMT
#516
On December 09 2010 16:07 johanngrunt wrote:
roaches are about half the cost of a stalker though, and 2 roaches > 1 stalker.


This is just stupid, Blizzard balances the races, not the units. If you want balanced units then you will have imbalanced races, period. It doesn't matter how the units compare on paper if they turn out to be too powerful when coupled with that races other units and abilities. You cannot compare units in isolation. I get so sick of unit to unit comparisons, as they mean absolutely nothing.
FlamingTurd
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1059 Posts
December 10 2010 05:55 GMT
#517
Thank God... that takes a bit of the worry away at least... At least my wrists won't get carpal tunnel as fast.
Nerf MMMT!!! Liquid`Ret Hwaiting!!!
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
December 10 2010 06:06 GMT
#518
Marauders need tech-lab (that costs vespene and minerals), roach warren is only 200 minerals (150+50)
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
December 10 2010 06:12 GMT
#519
the roach can hit timing windows when inject kicks into overdrive. the classic example is the 7RR. a roach army would be a lot larger than the other armies. A 6 marauder rush would be even more powerful except that there is no way to get 6 marauders out that fast.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-10 06:44:48
December 10 2010 06:44 GMT
#520
EDIT: LOL NVM
www.infinityseven.net
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