EPTBlizzard reverting some patch 1.2 changes - Page 26
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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Fwiffo
Canada57 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:25 YoiChiBow wrote: ... colossi still move if fungaled since they are massive type No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed. | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote: And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal.... Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote: roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg. Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:07 Fwiffo wrote: No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed. No... fungul ultras and watch them keep running. | ||
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brownymaster
5 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:38 rackdude wrote: No... fungul ultras and watch them keep running. Ultras have frenzy (makes them immune to stun snares mind control etc). Don't apply that to every other unit that can get neuraled, stunned, snared, etc including other massive units. | ||
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Creation85
51 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. For better accuracy, you probably shouldn't forget that roaches cost less than a marauder, much less than a stalker, and since you said that marauders get stim and stalkers blink, I guess we give roaches burrow and burrow move too? And I think roaches build time is shorter than either. I agree that roaches shouldn't be changed, but don't say roaches got "the short end of the stick" based on some worthless calculations. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. All you guys need to stop using the term "DPS" (which is a stupid carryover from WoW anyway), stop theorycrafting, and actually play the game. Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers. Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided. | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:55 Creation85 wrote: For better accuracy, you probably shouldn't forget that roaches cost less than a marauder, much less than a stalker, and since you said that marauders get stim and stalkers blink, I guess we give roaches burrow and burrow move too? And I think roaches build time is shorter than either. I agree that roaches shouldn't be changed, but don't say roaches got "the short end of the stick" based on some worthless calculations. I was only calculating damage, range and health and added upgrades as possibilities. Roach 75/25, 27 second build time, spawned from larva which are also used to create drones and overlords, thus possibly lowering the amount of roaches spawned. Moving unburrowed, their speed is 2.25, 3 with glial reconstitution. Burrowed they move at 1.40, and 2.15 with glial reconstitution. Assuming they are on creep, the speed is 1.3x 145 HP with .273 HP/S regen, 5 when burrowed, 10 when burrowed with tunneling claws. Biological armored with 1 armor. They do 8 DPS to ground targets at a maximum range of 4. Marauder 100/25, 30 second build time, trained at a barracks. Constant 2.25 speed, 3.375 speed for 12 seconds when stimmed. 125 HP, biological armored with 1 armor. They do 6.66 DPS to non-armored ground targets, 13.33 DPS when stimmed. They also have +10 vs armored which translates to 13.33 DPS to armored ground targets, 26.66 DPS when stimmed, at a maximum range of 6. On top of this, they can also have concussive shells which slows a single non-massive target by 50%. Including upgrades, marauders can kite roaches just due to concussive shells. Stalker 125/50, 42 second build time, 5 second warp in time, trained at the gateway/warped in via warp gate. Constant 2.95 speed, however the blink ability can be used to teleport stalkers out of combat (10 second cooldown), and allows the stalkers to go up or down cliffs, however blink is limited by line of sight. Furthermore, if you remove upgrades from the equation, stalkers can kite roaches easily due to the speed difference. 80 shields, 80 HP. Shield regens 2 per second. Mechanical armored with 1 armor. They do 6.94 DPS against non armored ground or aerial targets, and 9.72 DPS against armored ground or aerial targets, at a maximum range of 6. So upgraded or not and not microed, when put at a distance of 10 from each other, the stalker or marauder would kill the roach every time. If you disregard "worthless calculations" and only think about how players utilizing the abilities of each, then roaches can be used on par with stalkers or marauders. However if you choose to think like that, then you'd have to factor in the possibility of ravens, observers, scanner sweeps, etc. since you know, players use those too. | ||
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RaNgeD
United States733 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though. | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote: Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though. True, something I addressed in the post after. Stalkers can hit air whereas marauders and roaches cannot. On top of that, roaches cost larva as well as resources. I'm not really sure where that puts marauders but they seem to take most of the hits for MMM bioballs. | ||
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DocM
United States212 Posts
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:40 Kitani wrote: True, something I addressed in the post after. Stalkers can hit air whereas marauders and roaches cannot. On top of that, roaches cost larva as well as resources. I'm not really sure where that puts marauders but they seem to take most of the hits for MMM bioballs. A stalker costs nearly twice a roach. The stalker better damn well beat the pants off a roach at any given time and day | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:54 Dakkas wrote: A stalker costs nearly twice a roach. The stalker better damn well beat the pants off a roach at any given time and day In terms of versatility, stalkers are much more useful, yeah, and in a 1v1 it'll take down the roach, but when you get higher numbers of roaches and stalkers On December 09 2010 15:17 Piledriver wrote: Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers. Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided. | ||
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Juffalo
United States155 Posts
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johanngrunt
Hong Kong1555 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 09 2010 16:07 johanngrunt wrote: roaches are about half the cost of a stalker though, and 2 roaches > 1 stalker. This is just stupid, Blizzard balances the races, not the units. If you want balanced units then you will have imbalanced races, period. It doesn't matter how the units compare on paper if they turn out to be too powerful when coupled with that races other units and abilities. You cannot compare units in isolation. I get so sick of unit to unit comparisons, as they mean absolutely nothing. | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
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