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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
1) Bunker build time reduction removed as previously noted 2) Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units 3) It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command Post can be found here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1306100875 | ||
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_KiM_
Canada498 Posts
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Selith
United States238 Posts
How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! | ||
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People_0f_Color
177 Posts
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JotunShagrath
United States23 Posts
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SharkSpider
Canada606 Posts
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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MusiK
United States302 Posts
Glad that they hear what we have to say. =D | ||
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italiangymnast
United States246 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! because these were potentially gamebreaking. glad to see blizz taking people's feedback seriously =D <3 | ||
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
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theherder2
United States538 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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QuothTheRaven
United States5524 Posts
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
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Msrobinson
United States138 Posts
Thou shalt listen to thy players, and then thou shalt act accordingly to their whims, lest be flamed. Being as such, us, the players, may look forward to a game in which is made fun by the players, for the players. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:20 theherder2 wrote: i think the key to that whole PTR was the air fungal. If that wasn't in the original notes then everything else everyone could take in stride for the most part. yeah i think so too. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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GaussWaffle
United States211 Posts
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djcube
United States985 Posts
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
.... yet | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:24 FrankWalls wrote: at least theres no mention of the phoenix time being changed .... yetI think most of the qualms with phoenix buffs was that it was paired with a significant nerf to Infestors .I have no qualms about it now. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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Twitches
Canada365 Posts
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:24 Sprouter wrote: that zerg qq gets something done for once Zerg QQ changed the race from being flatout stupidly bad to a much more balanced race, it has done a lot. I'm glad this was changed, making 30 banelings would have been so stupid otherwise.. or replenishing a 200/200 army after a clash. It's not even a skill ceiling thing, a monkey can spam one button, it's just one thing that shouldn't be in a game in 2010. Mario Party killed my thumb, I don't want Starcraft 2 to kill my index. That said I really like the fungal revert as well. However maybe they should have compromised, as one fungal can kill infinite phoenixes (don't ask me why no protoss will spread), a slow or something would be fine as well as long as the damage stayed the same. But hey, I'm zerg so this change suits me just fine  | ||
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Howl67
United States148 Posts
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Jusciax
Lithuania588 Posts
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? It could be, or maybe they were like, "yea, well we knew this probably wasn't going to work." Either way I'm happy! | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Archmage
United States169 Posts
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:27 NearPerfection wrote: Sigh, I was enjoying Phoenix actually countering Muta for once, now with FG nerf removed, mass muta will once again kill every single Phoenix that comes close to an infestor. When people get better at the game and this becomes more common hopefully this will be looked at once again. The key is that Phoenixes are going to be out and about fast and plentiful now if you want them to be. You'll already have established air dominance by the time Zerg is popping mutas. Just don't get careless and run into a fungal with every phoenix. I don't think you realize how absurdly gas heavy going muta + infestor is, it's not the type of thing Zerg can just do off of 2 bases and live. Blizzard has done a frighteningly, almost suspiciously good job of listening to the community and making the proper adjustments. Yay Blizzard! | ||
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Darth_Ihsahn
Mexico138 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:27 NearPerfection wrote: Sigh, I was enjoying Phoenix actually countering Muta for once, now with FG nerf removed, mass muta will once again kill every single Phoenix that comes close to an infestor. When people get better at the game and this becomes more common hopefully this will be looked at once again. I think its actually better this way. Kinda like Science Vessel EMP and Arbiter Stasis in SC1. You need to get close enough to lift the infestor before the FG. | ||
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Ksi
357 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
those are the only 3 i cared about. thank you blizz. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! Well in WoW, the most vocal part of the community kind of doesn't matter because they are so addicted they will stick with anything. Plus, there are WoW pro-players but no one cares. If people hear cataclysm isn't balanced, it won't matter because WoW was never that balanced, everyone's already playing it anyway, and pretty much every MMO is imbalanced. Balance matters way more in RTS, while MMO is more like facebook where you are trying to hold as many people as possible, get them to bring in their friends, and get as much money out of them as possible. Now in Starcraft II, most players are playing custom games and stuff, and they aren't really affected by balance. But they do care about balance because it was a strength of the original and a bunch of news about "blizzard is making the game worse" will hurt them for expansion sales and esports expansion. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4492 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:24 Sprouter wrote: that zerg qq gets something done for once LOL. Okay let's just ignore the two previous patches that Zerg qq'd for. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
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MementoMori
Canada419 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Lipski
Poland373 Posts
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us.insurgency
United States330 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:32 Zerokaiser wrote: The key is that Phoenixes are going to be out and about fast and plentiful now if you want them to be. You'll already have established air dominance by the time Zerg is popping mutas. Just don't get careless and run into a fungal with every phoenix. I don't think you realize how absurdly gas heavy going muta + infestor is, it's not the type of thing Zerg can just do off of 2 bases and live. Blizzard has done a frighteningly, almost suspiciously good job of listening to the community and making the proper adjustments. Yay Blizzard! This is the best for both races. gg blizzard | ||
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Skinberger
Canada54 Posts
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo I agree, but it did hurt Z (the more mechanically difficult race) more than the others... kinda. | ||
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Sisko
United States121 Posts
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:40 mprs wrote: Having to spam a single key 30 times is not making the game harder. I agree, but it did hurt Z (the more mechanically difficult race) more than the others... kinda. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:40 mprs wrote: I agree, but it did hurt Z (the more mechanically difficult race) more than the others... kinda. Mostly the zergling and baneling heavy Kyrix style was really hurt. Morphing that many banelings takes some serious time during intense battles. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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shakenbake
United States207 Posts
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
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acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
Has anyone thought of keeping a scouting phoenix to sort of spot for the main group of phoenixes? Similar to how terran's deal with infestors without ghosts if they're having to put a lot of gas into siege/thor/medivac tech, send a small group of units ahead so the fungal growth is not as cost effective. One 'spotter' phoenix could do wonders, perhaps even pick up the infestor or force it to fungal that phoenix before it gets picked up and sniped (infestors are going to be limited in this dynamic because of how heavy the zerg player is trying to go muta vs phoenix) | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
I wish they'd put in some things the community has asked for like warp prism/carrier changes into PTR to see how things shake out with those. | ||
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skronch
United States2717 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
Oh wait. | ||
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lol12tree
Canada88 Posts
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nodash
Denmark43 Posts
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:51 Piledriver wrote: Its funny how PvT early game hasn't even been touched, as well as late game. I'm sure a 25/25 cost reduction on observers helps out a ton versus marauder pressure. Oh wait. Yeah I agree, I think a nerf to concussive shells (making it require factory or something) would take some of the pressure off Protoss ealry game (and not affect the ZvT matchup too much), then perhaps buff some aspect of Terran late-game so they can fight on even ground vs Protoss and Zerg. | ||
Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
Well I'm glad blizzard is listening | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
 It was a protoss dream and blizzard's goal is to crush the hopes of protoss. Can i have flux veins back now? | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
I am shamed to admit (and shocked) that I actually lost my very first game on the PTR to a drone rush because my repeated attempts to micro my drones around his using my mineral patches failed miserably. This is actually a pretty big nerf especially for those like FD who do insane drone micro by taking advantage of far away mineral patches and such. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:56 darmousseh wrote: No! My phoenix! It was a protoss dream and blizzard's goal is to crush the hopes of protoss. Can i have flux veins back now? Did you read first post? They're canceled only 3 changes: bunkers, Fungal Growth and hold-down hotkey | ||
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zylog
Canada943 Posts
I actually liked the phoenix build time reduction. This GSL has shown that phoenix in PvZ can be viable, and with the patch we should really see an increase in its usage. | ||
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
I think the PTR is a great idea in general, it gives Blizz the chance to test stuff out and fix potential bugs all before the official patch is even released. It makes no difference to casuals, but it's good for high level players to get a heads up on upcoming changes and have a chance to practice under the new conditions. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
I wonder though what made them put the changes in in the first place. The bunker thing was silly and such a small change and I don't see what it was trying to fix. The hotkey change went against everything Blizz has done with the SC2 interface so far. And the fungal was a pretty dramatic change which would have affected all Z matchups majorly. Don't really get what they were trying to do here. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:56 darmousseh wrote: No! My phoenix! It was a protoss dream and blizzard's goal is to crush the hopes of protoss. Can i have flux veins back now? Yeah, I'm not sure why they decided to revert the FG change, but keep the Flux vanes removal. Though Voids did get a +20 to massive, which will be useful against Thors, Broodlords, and Collosai. | ||
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Terrifyer
United States338 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:53 Griffith` wrote: So basically, terran gets another nerf (scv repair), zerg still op as hell late game, protoss better early game and easy access to air. well, you potentially made a BO that competes with zerg late game rather nicely, so I don't see whatchu cryin' bout! | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
MUAHAHAHAHAHA, our buff didn't get reverted. Our 5 step plans to making protoss the strongest race is working. Step one: Start losing Step two: Start QQ Step three: Wait for buffs Step four: Lose some more Step five: Get more buffs and then, start owning everybody. MUAHAHA | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:43 Nexic wrote: Having to spam a single key 30 times is not making the game harder. There has to be a strategical-decision-based gameplay and there has to be a mechanic-based gameplay. I think StarCraft wouldn't be as entertaining if you can play it with your mind and everything you want to do is done without using your hand. This is probably not the best way of doing it, and I don't know what the best way is. | ||
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Go0g3n
Russian Federation410 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
EDIT: On December 07 2010 15:27 NearPerfection wrote: Sigh, I was enjoying Phoenix actually countering Muta for once, now with FG nerf removed, mass muta will once again kill every single Phoenix that comes close to an infestor. When people get better at the game and this becomes more common hopefully this will be looked at once again. ...then don't engage around infestors. It's not like mutas carry infestors with them to go harass your base, so attack them there or somewhere else they're scouting. It's like saying my mutas get raped whenever they try to fight a thor near a turret. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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MegaBUD
Canada179 Posts
Lame... | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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Bandino
United States342 Posts
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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Skipton
United States707 Posts
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo do you really think that pressing one key repeatedly increases the skill ceiling? now you can use your true skills to do something useful instead of staring to the screen pressing one key repeatedly to make units. | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:12 ilbh wrote: do you really think that pressing one key repeatedly increases the skill ceiling? Zerg had the hardest time with amount of keypresses to do macro anyway, this change was just making the gap larger | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:12 ilbh wrote: do you really think that pressing one key repeatedly increases the skill ceiling? now you can use your true skills to do something useful instead of staring to the screen pressing one key repeatedly to make units. Yeah, not even Broodwar required you to press Z for every zergling you wanted to make, or for each Lurker you wanted to morph. This would have been a step backwards as far as mechanics goes. | ||
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backtoback
Canada1276 Posts
1) State of the game podcast. Dustin or David kim listening to artosis and idrA whining about these test *and incontrol* 2) They did this on purpose knowing it would BE VERY GAME BReAKING and revert is asap so they get loved by the community. Obviously they are trying to take attention away at something special.. but what is it? Could it be chat channels? No complaints about how shitty it is or some other stuff?!? | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:14 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: And so ends a torrent of bitching. Dude, Nice name. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:08 Osmoses wrote: Fungal growth IS a bit too good at shutting down harass. Change it from a complete freeze to an ensnare effect imo, problem solved. QFT. Slowing is also fundamentally more exciting that a standstill because the player still has a CHANCE to escape in some situations. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
Just because Idra pops up in every other thread and QQs about balance and says he is actually the best player around, and only loses to scrubs because the game is imbalanced does not mean it is true. People here should be more open to discussion. The game is weird right now, if other races allow Zerg to expand, they are done. The bunkers are good. Terran should be able to cheese or at least it should be an option so that Zergs don't get to expand everywhere. Fungal growth affecting air units or not is a toss up for me, but seeing that Protoss cannot do that to terran mediavac, I don't see why Zerg should. But it's a toss up. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:00 Existor wrote: Did you read first post? They're canceled only 3 changes: bunkers, Fungal Growth and hold-down hotkey I did, they nerfed fungal growth which was going to be awesomesauce. Now they are just "ok" units again. And now without speed rays what the heck am I supposed to do to harass late game. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
Talking about Fungal to air, I think it is a bit tough for Terran dropships who already suffered a nerf in speed, though I think a bunch of fungaled dropships caught by an Infestor is one of the more exciting moves in Starcraft 2 and it would be a pitty to see that removed. Anyway, along with the whole bunch of fixes, the truly deserved and finally realized Protoss buff to air and observer (nothing game breaking at all but a more than necessary boost in the metagame, so I totally dont see people QQing about), and chat channels will make a really awesome improvement to our game. For the next patch I'd like to see the multi-user replay and new maps. Oh, and thanks Blizzard. | ||
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SuperBigFoot
United States63 Posts
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ThunderGod
New Zealand897 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: 3) It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command Lolwut, you can do this?! o.0 !!! | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:16 Xxavi wrote: This pisses me off, they wait and watch how other races have to adapt for so long, yet they give up after Zerg outcry. I mean, they are seriously not doing a good job with their adjustments. Just because Idra pops up in every other thread and QQs about balance and says he is actually the best player around, and only loses to scrubs because the game is imbalanced does not mean it is true. People here should be more open to discussion. The game is weird right now, if other races allow Zerg to expand, they are done. The bunkers are good. Terran should be able to cheese or at least it should be an option so that Zergs don't get to expand everywhere. Fungal growth affecting air units or not is a toss up for me, but seeing that Protoss cannot do that to terran mediavac, I don't see why Zerg should. But it's a toss up. This is a very poor argument. According to your logic: "because race A and do thing X, race B should be able to do thing X" we ought to let Zerg have cliff-walkers, and Terran have warp-in because Protoss can do these things. Seriously, this kind of logic belongs in the BNET forums. | ||
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Raine
Canada210 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
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potatomash3r
Australia417 Posts
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mardi
United States1164 Posts
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Arcanne
United States1519 Posts
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Arckan
243 Posts
I would've been alright with the manually making each unit thing, but it's all good. | ||
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schiznak
Australia258 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:16 Xxavi wrote: This pisses me off, they wait and watch how other races have to adapt for so long, yet they give up after Zerg outcry. I mean, they are seriously not doing a good job with their adjustments. Just because Idra pops up in every other thread and QQs about balance and says he is actually the best player around, and only loses to scrubs because the game is imbalanced does not mean it is true. People here should be more open to discussion. The game is weird right now, if other races allow Zerg to expand, they are done. The bunkers are good. Terran should be able to cheese or at least it should be an option so that Zergs don't get to expand everywhere. Fungal growth affecting air units or not is a toss up for me, but seeing that Protoss cannot do that to terran mediavac, I don't see why Zerg should. But it's a toss up. So toss has highest win% overall on ladder, and as a result they get a phoenix buff and an ultra nerf, and you are still complaining. Classy Not to mention zerg had to go like 2 months being the unanimously agreed upon 'worst race'. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Acayex
United States26 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:16 Xxavi wrote: This pisses me off, they wait and watch how other races have to adapt for so long, yet they give up after Zerg outcry. I mean, they are seriously not doing a good job with their adjustments. Just because Idra pops up in every other thread and QQs about balance and says he is actually the best player around, and only loses to scrubs because the game is imbalanced does not mean it is true. People here should be more open to discussion. The game is weird right now, if other races allow Zerg to expand, they are done. The bunkers are good. Terran should be able to cheese or at least it should be an option so that Zergs don't get to expand everywhere. Fungal growth affecting air units or not is a toss up for me, but seeing that Protoss cannot do that to terran mediavac, I don't see why Zerg should. But it's a toss up. I'm sure they watched Zerg try to adapt to 5 rax reapers for a long time. Somethings they feel like needs changes. I highly doubt Blizzard even listens to Idra since he'll complain about anything if he's in a bad mood. Terran do have the option to cheese, and effectively too. Look at this season's GSL. I won't mention any games but there's plenty of Terran cheeses that basically make Zerg hatch first builds suicidal on certain maps. | ||
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ectonym
United States147 Posts
Blizzard, you have renewed my faith in companies listening to their customers. No complaints anymore, zerg tears win again. edit: spelling and added last line to avoid a dbl post | ||
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k20
United States342 Posts
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Gnax
Sweden490 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:28 ectonym wrote: omg I seriously was sweating about the fungal growth change and now I can breath a sigh of relief! I'm not a top player at all, and I play for fun, and I'll be damned if fungal growth isn't my favorite thing in the world. I'd say out of 20 games, I go mutas maybe 5 times, and infestors every chance I can! Thank goodness about FG, when you think about the ability not being able to stop an early cloakshee rush....I shudder. (i love going early infestors, whether i've scouted or not it usually pays off) Blizzard, you have renewed my faith in companies listening to their customers. No complaints anymore, zerg tears win again. Ya see this is my problem right here people on forums whine and blizzard takes action WITHIN 3 DAYS wth? Aside from what the changes actually are, it's been 3 days? since they announced this, and now they have completely removed it. ( how much testing can happen in 3 days?) | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
i am glad this at least shows that Blizzard care and listens to the players. I wonder how many e-mails check sent after the PTR has gone live though =p ( i kid i kid) | ||
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kinetic_skink
Australia125 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:22 zak wrote: oh gawd they should have left the hotkey alone. cant they make it a little weeny bit harder for us?! You can still press the keys repeatedly to build units if you want. You don't have to hold the key down. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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SolidusR
United States217 Posts
I'm happy they are reverting this, I was thinking a scaleback on the infestor nerf not a complete reversion. Toss still get their buffs, so I really don't see what the problem is. It doesn't make sense to simultaneously nerf one race and buff another, it makes more sense to test them out one at a time to isolate variables. It's important to bear in mind that this may be exactly what Blizzard is trying to do. I'm not going to put on my party hat until I see the official patch notes, finalized and ready for downloading. I'm pretty sure the keystroke "fix" is gone for good though :D | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:27 Acayex wrote: I'm sure they watched Zerg try to adapt to 5 rax reapers for a long time. Somethings they feel like needs changes. I highly doubt Blizzard even listens to Idra since he'll complain about anything if he's in a bad mood. Terran do have the option to cheese, and effectively too. Look at this season's GSL. I won't mention any games but there's plenty of Terran cheeses that basically make Zerg hatch first builds suicidal on certain maps. Well, there you go, there are certain maps, where you shouldn't go hatch first. Really, I am all for macro games, but some people, especially Zerg players, idea of macro is that they are sitting comfortably on 4 expansions with +40 supply over his terran/toss opponent. How is that any balanced? It's freaking clear they will win. I watched that Ret's game vs Protoss player. In that first game, the Toss player killed 2-3 large armies of Ret. Ret didn't seem to be controlling his units at all, just sending for massacre. Yet, he is comfortably sitting on 5 expansions, and taking gold, so he can keep pumping units. Was he the better player in the first game? Absolutely not for me, yet he got praised for macro. Good Zergs make it look ridiculous if you don't pressure them early. Cheese or not cheese, if you let NesTea alive for more than 10 minutes, that's it, you can as well gg. | ||
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:53 Griffith` wrote: So basically, terran gets another nerf (scv repair), zerg still op as hell late game, protoss better early game and easy access to air. And yet, T is still dominating left and right. (also, it's not a nerf since bunkers are staying the same....) Anyway, great change to fungal, hope they do this more often, it's great idea to test things out like this. People just overreacted cuz they/we had no way of knowing that these changes have little chance of actually taking place. (Also, now no zerg is going to whine about phenoix buff kkeke :D) Once again, day9 was right ^^ | ||
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Kishkumen
United States650 Posts
Overall though, it looks like they made good decisions and took out the worst changes from a community perspective. Let this be a reminder to the doubters that Blizzard does occasionally listen to the community. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
. | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:37 DizzyDrone wrote: just a little hint for you protoss players out there, you can spread phoenixes against fungal growth the same way you can spread mutalisks against thors. So we agree that the radius of fungal should be reduced to 0.5! | ||
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ectonym
United States147 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:37 Xxavi wrote: Well, there you go, there are certain maps, where you shouldn't go hatch first. Really, I am all for macro games, but some people, especially Zerg players, idea of macro is that they are sitting comfortably on 4 expansions with +40 supply over his terran/toss opponent. How is that any balanced? It's freaking clear they will win. I watched that Ret's game vs Protoss player. In that first game, the Toss player killed 2-3 large armies of Ret. Ret didn't seem to be controlling his units at all, just sending for massacre. Yet, he is comfortably sitting on 5 expansions, and taking gold, so he can keep pumping units. Was he the better player in the first game? Absolutely not for me, yet he got praised for macro. Good Zergs make it look ridiculous if you don't pressure them early. Cheese or not cheese, if you let NesTea alive for more than 10 minutes, that's it, you can as well gg. Like I said I'm not a top player by any stretch, but I recently embarked on the mission to teach my FPS-playing roommate how to play SC2. I've played SC1 since 2003 but always casually. But I did make sure to tell him on his first or second time sitting down to the game, you never, ever leave a Zerg player alone. You can't just let the Zerg sit in their base; in fact it should be on page 1 of the strategy guide for new players. (btw, roommate plays terran exclusively, i play zerg) I'm not sure this is a problem, meaning the fact that a Zerg left alone for 10 minutes on 5 expansions isn't a game balance problem, I think instead it's a problem of the opponent not doing what is needed to stop the Swarm: pressure. Force the Zerg to make units instead of drones. @DonKey_ from Liechtenstein: And my comment about Zerg tears winning again was a joke. I'm confident the change wasn't based purely on complaining. Surely you don't think it was all due to whining? | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:53 Griffith` wrote: So basically, terran gets another nerf (scv repair), zerg still op as hell late game, protoss better early game and easy access to air. Bullshit, scv repair is game AI, a bug fix, not a nerf to it. How the hell can any other race could stop thors+SCVs repair rush when in early game they mostly have melee attack units. | ||
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:42 Dingobloo wrote: So we agree that the radius of fungal should be reduced to 0.5! I don't think so no, flying your phoenixes above a zerg's army should still be a risk, but with the buildtime reduction I think they will do quite well against mutalisks, even with infestors out. My point is that I see the same thing now that I saw a few weeks ago when zerg players were complaining that their mutalisks were hardcountered by thors - now you see mutalisks in nearly every tvz. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
But 3 days?? lol? | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:33 kinetic_skink wrote: You can still press the keys repeatedly to build units if you want. You don't have to hold the key down. oh haha so funny. yes sc2 is not sc1 ffs the technical difficulty of sc2 is so low. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
The bunker time should actually be shorter imo and the maps bigger but as long as maps they the same I guess bunkers need to take some time | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:47 ectonym wrote: Like I said I'm not a top player by any stretch, but I recently embarked on the mission to teach my FPS-playing roommate how to play SC2. I've played SC1 since 2003 but always casually. But I did make sure to tell him on his first or second time sitting down to the game, you never, ever leave a Zerg player alone. You can't just let the Zerg sit in their base; in fact it should be on page 1 of the strategy guide for new players. (btw, roommate plays terran exclusively, i play zerg) I'm not sure this is a problem, meaning the fact that a Zerg left alone for 10 minutes on 5 expansions isn't a game balance problem, I think instead it's a problem of the opponent not doing what is needed to stop the Swarm: pressure. Force the Zerg to make units instead of drones. @DonKey_ from Liechtenstein: And my comment about Zerg tears winning again was a joke. I'm confident the change wasn't based purely on complaining. Surely you don't think it was all due to whining? This isn't always the best advice. As a Zerg player, one of the hardest things to beat is a good turtler who turtles to 200/200 then comes out with a death ball that I cannot defeat with my 200/200 army. Zerg has to have massively superior army to beat a protoss or terran in a turtle position. And fact of the matter is that I can't saturate more than 3 bases otherwise my drones start cutting into my supply, so at some point, letting me take the entire map doesn't do me much good if I cannot make any more drones anyway. | ||
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kmkkmk
Germany418 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo In contrast to you I think skill should be shown by great strategic thinking and not by being able to push more buttons. | ||
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Bunker change was noted as temporary anyway. Wow that no-hold-down change was annoying, while it did feel more bw-ish, it was absolutely annoying with many reactorax. Nice that that'll be changed back. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:52 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: This isn't always the best advice. As a Zerg player, one of the hardest things to beat is a good turtler who turtles to 200/200 then comes out with a death ball that I cannot defeat with my 200/200 army. Zerg has to have massively superior army to beat a protoss or terran in a turtle position. And fact of the matter is that I can't saturate more than 3 bases otherwise my drones start cutting into my supply, so at some point, letting me take the entire map doesn't do me much good if I cannot make any more drones anyway. Can't you just use the mobility of your army? Go in with Mutas and harass the base and make them come back, don't let them expand. Keep upgrading until ultras. If you directly engage, you will, of course, lose. | ||
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kmkkmk
Germany418 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:52 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: This isn't always the best advice. As a Zerg player, one of the hardest things to beat is a good turtler who turtles to 200/200 then comes out with a death ball that I cannot defeat with my 200/200 army. Zerg has to have massively superior army to beat a protoss or terran in a turtle position. And fact of the matter is that I can't saturate more than 3 bases otherwise my drones start cutting into my supply, so at some point, letting me take the entire map doesn't do me much good if I cannot make any more drones anyway. Surely taking gas at those unsaturated bases and having them still does some good to you, no? | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:51 Patriot.dlk wrote: No idea why they implement something only to remove it 3 days later. However, the hotkey change was to stupid to keep and that probably goes for fungal as well. The bunker time should actually be shorter imo and the maps bigger but as long as maps they the same I guess bunkers need to take some time You want bunker time shorter? Watched the recent GSL by any chance? 2 rax is soo good now and if bunker would be done like 25 sec the i don't know what to say Well atleast the test is getting its worth, Blizzard prob is reviewing replays from the PRT Not sure if they contact some pros to play on it | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
Sad to see so many noobs complaining because they can't handle the mechanics. I don't even put my all my hatcheries on hotkey and hold down a button. I actually individually hotkey every hatch I have. Sad to see TL trying to dumb down the mechanics. So pissed off right now. I don't care other races are easier to macro, Zerg is a race that requires high APM so deal with it. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:37 DizzyDrone wrote: just a little hint for you protoss players out there, you can spread phoenixes against fungal growth the same way you can spread mutalisks against thors. So you only lose 1/2 of your Phoenix? It's irrelevant really. | ||
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cocosoft
Sweden1068 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:37 DizzyDrone wrote: LOL you're not supposed to be hit by fungal growth in the first place.just a little hint for you protoss players out there, you can spread phoenixes against fungal growth the same way you can spread mutalisks against thors. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
So I assume they also approve of keyboard-macros that does more then one button press in a single press? | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:04 papaz wrote: quite dissapointing of blizzard, specially with the "hold down key". Exactly. You see superstars like Jaedong playing at 350apm, and now you see 'so called' high level SC2 players complaining that: "I cant leave all my hatches on one hotkey and hold down ONE button to macro anymore". SC2 players already have it very very easy mechanically ffs. | ||
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gn1k
United States441 Posts
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da flam
2 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:02 cocosoft wrote: LOL you're not supposed to be hit by fungal growth in the first place. Fungal Growth outranges Graviton Beam significantly (9 to 4). How are you 'not supposed to be hit by it'? | ||
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cannavaro
Italy86 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:49 NearPerfection wrote: I really hope my ridiculously high win percentage on the PTR didn't contribute to toss buff reversions. Dont get too excited lol | ||
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Grack
51 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:24 Sprouter wrote: that zerg qq gets something done for once for once lol ? zergs are definition of qq . | ||
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SYFO
United States9 Posts
and im sick of hearing terran players yell about zerg op. terran in SC2 is a far far cry from the overwhelmingly demanding micro of terran in broodwar. from what i have seen thus far in the ladder, terran players have a random assortment of builds, and random collection of units, all of which are equally viable vs whatever enemy they are fighting. in my opinion, BEING A RANDOM PLAYER that is 2300+ in diamond, the terran "raw skill" average is far below that of other races. combining things like planetary fortresses, cheap concussive shells, extreme range thors and cheap medivacs, terrans micro demands are miniscule compared to that of protoss or zerg. and in my experience, when playing as protoss or zerg vs a terran, the build is usually dependent on what the terran is going - which is wrong. the terran tech tree should not dictate the dynamic of the game. personally, i think it was done like this intentionally to get non-broodwar players into the game via a combination of the campaign and then battlenet. and what nubbin said that zerg was too powerful late game? zergs tier three units are garbage, and used rarely. in fact, the ENTIRE basis of ZvP or ZvT is that the zerg HAS to stay 1 base ahead of the enemy or its just not a fair fight. terran is quite strong late game, and toss is the strongest. zergs power is early and mid game. period. | ||
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MaDBread
Germany66 Posts
Now that FG is back to old how about bringing VR speed back or give it another upgrade that makes it immune to ensnare effects? | ||
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yandere991
Australia394 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:09 da flam wrote: Fungal Growth outranges Graviton Beam significantly (9 to 4). How are you 'not supposed to be hit by it'? He'll probably respond with something like "the infestor is so easy to see etcetc" but of course if we made storm spontaneously combust mutalisks on touch he probably wouldn't be so happy. | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
Bring to PTR to Eu too! | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
I was a big fan of the patch outside of these 3 changes and with them not gone I think 1.2 is a great patch overall. The phoenix change is fine now that fungal is back to what it was i'm thinking. Obviously the game still needs more tweeks but this patch was a step in the right direction. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:06 Highways wrote: Exactly. You see superstars like Jaedong playing at 350apm, and now you see 'so called' high level SC2 players complaining that: "I cant leave all my hatches on one hotkey and hold down ONE button to macro anymore". SC2 players already have it very very easy mechanically ffs. That has nothing to do with mechanics. That's literally spamming the same key over again. They are different. Spamming the same key over again doesn't require any "mechanics" it's just tedious. And there's nothing you can even compare that to in BW. All larvae build the same thing in BW if they're all selected from a single click, so it'd be a terrible analogy. The closest comparison I could think of would be suggesting something like "if you have 10 marines selected, you should have to click T ten 10x to stim all 10 of them" as opposed to T merely stimming them all at once. | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
It's relatively easy to snipe infestors during big pitched battles before you commit with your air force, or to just defend your air units with the rest of your colossus/gateway army when they get fungaled during a fight. | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Lol, I love the "people who hold down buttons are noobs!!11eleven" talk. Seriously, if you don't play zerg, don't talk about this one. Next time you have to morph thirty banelings by destroying your 'e' key, then come talk. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:59 Highways wrote: I liked the no repeat hotkey for Zerg. Sad to see so many noobs complaining because they can't handle the mechanics. I don't even put my all my hatcheries on hotkey and hold down a button. I actually individually hotkey every hatch I have. Sad to see TL trying to dumb down the mechanics. So pissed off right now. I don't care other races are easier to macro, Zerg is a race that requires high APM so deal with it. This is absurd. There is no "skill" in being able to push the same button 40 times really fast. It is merely a tedious and unnecessary addition that adds nothing and detracts plenty since no longer will you have lings all popping at once but rather streaming out a few at a time, which is huge. Also, the change would have affected zerg much much more than the other races which again is absurd given the fact zerg already takes much more "clicking" and apm to macro as zerg. It wasn't anything like the proposed change in BW and there is no reason it should be like that in SC2. | ||
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SuperBigFoot
United States63 Posts
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Acayex
United States26 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:55 Xxavi wrote: Can't you just use the mobility of your army? Go in with Mutas and harass the base and make them come back, don't let them expand. Keep upgrading until ultras. If you directly engage, you will, of course, lose. You could abuse the mobility of Zerg's forces, however, they don't always come back to defend. Especially if they're already almost at the front of your base, it's better for them to just push in and see if they can win it rather than turn back to defend and falling behind. Plus, having a few turrets and a thor or two around a Terran base makes muta harass in small numbers impossible. Protoss had a harder time with muta harass but the phoenix buff will definitely help. There isn't any other very mobile Zerg unit except Zerglings which can't do anything if the opponent has a wall off, or maybe Nydus Worms which is easily defeated by scouting. Zerg units are very weak, even being 40 supply ahead, a Zerg player has to flank, surround, or ambush to effectively utilize that supply lead while other race unit compositions are strong enough to push simply forward with making it again somewhat dependent on the maps as well. Going back on topic though, the reverting of these changes don't buff Zerg at all from the current state. FG didn't seem like a major issue so that nerf surprised a lot of people. The hotkey hold-down was completely uncalled for and really didn't seem like it had any valid reasoning behind it. (Or why it was called a bug in the first place, you'd think they would have noticed something like this from the get-go). If anything, the patch buffs PvZ and PvT still. The patch seems like it tips TvZ towards Z a bit more, making worker harass easier and repair+thor and repair+PF much simpler to deal with. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Other changes are good though, except, well Protoss won't be able to win any game that goes into lategame vs Zerg on bigger maps and includes hive-tech-units, if both have similar skill - no speed-rays vs mass-mutas AND fungal vs phoenix AND broodlords to kill everything else....will not work, there isn't even a counter in "theory". | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:28 On_Slaught wrote: This is absurd. There is no "skill" in being able to push the same button 40 times really fast. It is merely a tedious and unnecessary addition that adds nothing and detracts plenty since no longer will you have lings all popping at once but rather streaming out a few at a time, which is huge. Also, the change would have affected zerg much much more than the other races which again is absurd given the fact zerg already takes much more "clicking" and apm to macro as zerg. It wasn't anything like the proposed change in BW and there is no reason it should be like that in SC2. 100% agree with this post, spamming the same buttom to produce is not skill, it's just tedious and unnececary | ||
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tyrless
United States485 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
Overall this patch starts to look excellent. | ||
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ectonym
United States147 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:36 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I think its funny how nobody complained about holding keys until Blizzard decided to remove it, then add it back. Now its OP apparently. someone give this guy a medal for saying what we should all be thinking | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
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sk`
Japan442 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo Needless spamming = skill? I'm shocked at the number of posts like these in this thread. | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
Ps. Obviously there not doing that and im now really happy with this patch everything is really good. I did like the bunker build time thought as Terran got to be biased. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:06 Highways wrote: Exactly. You see superstars like Jaedong playing at 350apm, and now you see 'so called' high level SC2 players complaining that: "I cant leave all my hatches on one hotkey and hold down ONE button to macro anymore". SC2 players already have it very very easy mechanically ffs. totally different. im all for making the game harder/increasing the skill cap. but it should be done by cool/good things (stuff like muta micro, units like the reaver,maybe even removingsmartcast ) and not by forcing someone to spam the same key 30 times. hitting your baneling morph key 30 times isnt skillful or anything. its annoying and stupid. and in BW things worked different anyways since producing or morphing units required ONE keypress and all larva/units selected started morphing. its not a huge issue and actually i didnt even use it till like a month ago . still i disagree with your post since things are totally different. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:36 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I think its funny how nobody complained about holding keys until Blizzard decided to remove it, then add it back. Now its OP apparently. I didn't even KNOW that this was possible previously, if so I would have made one hell of QQ-thread here. What the fuck, I as protoss get constantly told "blah, blah, one base easy, no macro needed etc." and have to find out that actually I have BY FAR the hardest mechansim to produce units? Because not only do I have to leave the battlefield, no, I have to select the unit-type I want to build (after selecting warpgates) THEN hold shift and THEN I have to CLICK multiple-times to warp them in. All while the opponent zerg stares at the battlefield the whole time, selects 5-7 (whatever they have their hatches on) and hold down "r" - another 20 roaches incoming; now this wasn't too hard wasn't it? Now I want to be able to warp in multiple units by just holding down my left mouse-button, thanks blizz plz fix soon. EDIT: at poster above me: I'm fine with multiple baneling-morph because this could be thought of being one "action" to be performed for every member of the group. Same with, well, multiple archon-warps if I'd ever come into such situation. | ||
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Acayex
United States26 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:30 sleepingdog wrote: No wonder they are changing back the hold-key-mechanism, there probably were millions of bronze-level-posts saying it is too hard to actually press some key repeatedly - fucking bullshit, Blizz attempts to make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding and cowardly reverts it shortly after. Other changes are good though, except, well Protoss won't be able to win any game that goes into lategame vs Zerg on bigger maps and includes hive-tech-units, if both have similar skill - no speed-rays vs mass-mutas AND fungal vs phoenix AND broodlords to kill everything else....will not work, there isn't even a counter in "theory". It wouldn't make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding, it would just make it tedious and boring. You didn't even have to press 1 hotkey per unit back in BW. It makes no sense why you should in SC2 with the queen+larva injects which is already the more tedious of the 3 race macro mechanics. Having mass mutas with infestors and broodlords is extremely gas heavy and is unlikely composition if that's what your stating. The protoss would have to be a total dimwit to allow Zerg to obtain that many bases and geysers. Especially with the phoenix buff, spire builds can be shut down earlier. I think more-or-less Zerg players will have a difficult time with stargate builds after the patch comes out for a while. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
.I'd doubt very much that's the case, but wouldn't it be funny if it was? along with absolutely briliant. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
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Artisan
United States336 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
Joking aside, Its glad that Blizzard is listening, but why would they make some shit changes like this in the first place, even on PTR the bunker reduce time is unacceptable. | ||
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:30 sleepingdog wrote: No wonder they are changing back the hold-key-mechanism, there probably were millions of bronze-level-posts saying it is too hard to actually press some key repeatedly - fucking bullshit, Blizz attempts to make the game "a bit" more skill-demanding and cowardly reverts it shortly after. Other changes are good though, except, well Protoss won't be able to win any game that goes into lategame vs Zerg on bigger maps and includes hive-tech-units, if both have similar skill - no speed-rays vs mass-mutas AND fungal vs phoenix AND broodlords to kill everything else....will not work, there isn't even a counter in "theory". If we are talking theory, Mothership (vortex) and Archons will clean that army up. In practice however, I think the real danger in the pvz matchup for Protoss is the switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
If all the Zerg QQ was the reason Blizzard reverted the change then I say put it back on. I don't mind if FG nerf was reverted but not if it were for the reason because so many Zerg players demanded it. There should be testing around this to happen rather than player complaints. Now if FG never had the nerf in the first place how many pages of QQ would we have in the ptr thread then? If there is 1 thing that any race does not like then we can expect several threads of whining in it. Although you do not see much QQ of Protoss for some reason. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Now I can gladly say that I am glad for the phoenix build time buff, as long as we have a way to stop them with hydra's and infestors =). | ||
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stealthgerbi
United States25 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:06 Highways wrote: Exactly. You see superstars like Jaedong playing at 350apm, and now you see 'so called' high level SC2 players complaining that: "I cant leave all my hatches on one hotkey and hold down ONE button to macro anymore". SC2 players already have it very very easy mechanically ffs. who cares the game should be about strategy, not how quick someone can move their fingers... | ||
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halvorg
Norway717 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:03 shannn wrote: What this tell us is that all players should just shut the hell up about balance when it's on the PTR. Unless it's live then u can start complaining. If all the Zerg QQ was the reason Blizzard reverted the change then I say put it back on. I don't mind if FG nerf was reverted but not if it were for the reason because so many Zerg players demanded it. There should be testing around this to happen rather than player complaints. Now if FG never had the nerf in the first place how many pages of QQ would we have in the ptr thread then? If there is 1 thing that any race does not like then we can expect several threads of whining in it. Although you do not see much QQ of Protoss for some reason. what kind of backward ass logic is that? If the change is on PTR it means that they are considering the change, and want some feedback (but mostly testing). If there is A TIME to get your voice heard about balance changes it is at a PTR stage. if you don't play Z and especially ZvZ you don't understand what a huge change the fungal nerf would be(for better or worse), equivalent of removing siege mode in TvT. Personally im glad they just put the phoenix buff in there and we'll see how it turns out, instead of turning the whole game upside down. looks like a nice patch to me. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:37 Xxavi wrote: I watched that Ret's game vs Protoss player. In that first game, the Toss player killed 2-3 large armies of Ret. Ret didn't seem to be controlling his units at all, just sending for massacre. Yet, he is comfortably sitting on 5 expansions, and taking gold, so he can keep pumping units. Was he the better player in the first game? Absolutely not for me, yet he got praised for macro. Good Zergs make it look ridiculous if you don't pressure them early. Cheese or not cheese, if you let NesTea alive for more than 10 minutes, that's it, you can as well gg. Ugh, comments like this make me sick. Ret is successful in early pressure, out expands his opponent, and he wins because zerg is OP?? Give me a break. The only way zerg can beat a Z or T in maxed battle is if they are able to replenish their units because they will lose the initial battle. This is basic SC2 | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:03 shannn wrote: If all the Zerg QQ was the reason Blizzard reverted the change then I say put it back on. I don't mind if FG nerf was reverted but not if it were for the reason because so many Zerg players demanded it. There should be testing around this to happen rather than player complaints. To be fair, EVERYONE told Blizz the FG nerf was ridiculous - I am a protoss-player and don't think FG needs such a nerf either. Neither do I think that phoenixes need to be buffed. Then again I also think Blizz should bring back flux vanes, insanely expensive as it is and I couldn't remember one match where I was "wow the speed is sooo OP, without speed it would be teh balance". That's the mystery of PTR, Blizz has introduced changes that nobody ever asked for, let alone expected. Phoenixes were/are one of the units that IS actually 100% balanced as it is - one of the very few units that is skill-demanding, very strong in the hand of people who know what they are doing, free-loss for newbs unless it's against mass-muta. On December 07 2010 18:01 DizzyDrone wrote: If we are talking theory, Mothership (vortex) and Archons will clean that army up. In practice however, I think the real danger in the pvz matchup for Protoss is the switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks. This is why many good protoss-players started incorporating void rays in their standard-army - because you can't play against zerg hive-tech without them. Now PvZ lategame wasn't considererd protoss-favoured the last time I checked, so I don't get the flux vanes removal, now that they got rid of the ridiculous fungal nerf completely. | ||
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razamanaz
271 Posts
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ultramafia
221 Posts
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zeroISM
Japan161 Posts
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:12 halvorg wrote: what kind of backward ass logic is that? If the change is on PTR it means that they are considering the change, and want some feedback (but mostly testing). If there is A TIME to get your voice heard about balance changes it is at a PTR stage. if you don't play Z and especially ZvZ you don't understand what a huge change the fungal nerf would be(for better or worse), equivalent of removing siege mode in TvT. Personally im glad they just put the phoenix buff in there and we'll see how it turns out, instead of turning the whole game upside down. looks like a nice patch to me. I'm random now. I do play Zerg from time to time when I get them (although very rarely) so now what ? I know how it goes. Ofcourse there should be opinions on the changes but not just mindless QQ. If you have some constructive criticism like WHY it affects the setup in general (for example IdrA explained in the SotG why) then it's good to have that and tell Blizzard about it. But mindlessly saying things like: omfg why if Zerg doesn't have it hard enough or NOW WE CAN'T GO MUTA"S EVER. What good does any of these posts or of the similar kind have in kinds of feedback? Exactly none. My post may not show my point too well as I read it back now but players needs to give constructive feedback and Blizzard should only listen to that and not to just whining when it comes to possible changes in the future. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:12 ilbh wrote: do you really think that pressing one key repeatedly increases the skill ceiling? now you can use your true skills to do something useful instead of staring to the screen pressing one key repeatedly to make units. Mmm, if anything they'd need to have you select the larvae of only one hatch at once and then you'd need to press S again for the second one, and so on. But that's kind of silly as well, I think it's fine as it is. It still takes a lot of attention. (spawn larvae is the hard thing) On December 07 2010 18:12 stealthgerbi wrote: who cares the game should be about strategy, not how quick someone can move their fingers... Also, I'd take 4sh5sh6sh7sh over 5shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh any day. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo how does that make the game hardeR? I already look like a fucking epileptic when I play, dont you? xD | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:27 Railxp wrote: lol its nice to see that everyone likes to troll, even blizzard XD ahahah | ||
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WarChimp
Australia943 Posts
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
So.. the one zerg nerf that happens, gets.. undone. The one 'potential-but-wasn't-even-live' zerg nerf. But... protoss nerfs? Psh, put them live straight away! No need to test THOSE! ... -_________________________- | ||
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Durn
Canada360 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:22 Shikyo wrote: I agree with you but technically you can still do that (if they had kept the change.)Mmm, if anything they'd need to have you select the larvae of only one hatch at once and then you'd need to press S again for the second one, and so on. But that's kind of silly as well, I think it's fine as it is. It still takes a lot of attention. (spawn larvae is the hard thing) Also, I'd take 4sh5sh6sh7sh over 5shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh any day. | ||
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Durn
Canada360 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote: So.. the one zerg nerf that happens, gets.. undone. The one 'potential-but-wasn't-even-live' zerg nerf. But... protoss nerfs? Psh, put them live straight away! No need to test THOSE! ... -_________________________- Indulge me if you would, and please name some Protoss nerfs that have changed the game as much as the FG nerf. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
- Zerg nerfs are taken away Not that I think those changes should stay, but FG is too effective against phoenix. It is unfair that zerg has 1 spell that can win them the game (if both players go air heavy). Protoss does not have such a spell. Blizzard intents the phoenix to be the counter to muta, then it should be able to defend against FG too. And please don't counter my argument by saying "Force fields!". Protoss is balanced around having perfect force fields all the time. | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! Diffrent teams my friend | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
And lol at people who claim pressing Z 30 times makes the game more skillful :D *look at that guy, he's so skilled he can macro 50 bases at once, micro like a god and... and he can press Z 30 times!!!!!! Woah!* | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
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Fiercegore
United States294 Posts
Indulge me if you would, and please name some Protoss nerfs that have changed the game as much as the FG nerf. The void ray nerf was pretty substantial. Not even the first one where they reduced the range of void rays from 7 to 6 and made it only have 2 power levels, (Which was needed) but the damage reduction one made protoss air much weaker, and almost non-existent for a long time. Until Guinea pig that is. | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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BetterFasterStronger
United States604 Posts
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/0Is9A.gif) | ||
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Tjuhl
Germany17 Posts
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Consolidate
United States829 Posts
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Firereaver
India1701 Posts
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ZerOfy
United Kingdom405 Posts
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On December 07 2010 19:02 ZerOfy wrote: Now make Archons massive and let Stalkers scale better with upgrades! Why would you want archons to be worst? | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
Massive units can destroy force fields and aren't slowed by concussive grenade and only bad thing is that they take 20% more damage from void rays. I'll take that. On December 07 2010 17:06 Highways wrote: Exactly. You see superstars like Jaedong playing at 350apm, and now you see 'so called' high level SC2 players complaining that: "I cant leave all my hatches on one hotkey and hold down ONE button to macro anymore". SC2 players already have it very very easy mechanically ffs. You do realize that in bw you could just press the button once and it made all the larvae? | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On December 07 2010 19:09 Piski wrote: Massive units can destroy force fields and aren't slowed by concussive grenade and only bad thing is that they take 20% more damage from void rays. I'll take that. Wow i had a brain fart. I was confusing massive with armored lol. Its early -.- | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:24 Sprouter wrote: that zerg qq gets something done for once Tanks nerfed. Depot before rax. Reaperspeed requires factory. Zealot nerf. | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
I was kind of looking forward to these changes... :S Oh wells... | ||
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Burn2Memory
United States574 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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BC.KoRn
Canada567 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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Darren1337
Ireland73 Posts
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bakedace
United States672 Posts
On December 07 2010 19:30 Dente wrote: Tanks nerfed. Depot before rax. Reaperspeed requires factory. Zealot nerf. you have not idea what your talking about. they said in the patch notes that the reaper changes were for 2v2 balance and zealot build time because of proxy. | ||
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
rive and rearn | ||
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fatkid
United States62 Posts
Some of you make no sense to me, whatever. | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
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anatem
Romania1369 Posts
maps gonna get better (bigger) in time, more sophisticated plays including stuff like burrow move infestors on will become standard, and they'll get nerfed again since the ability is too good for 3+ base play but for now, reverting the fg change isn't bad, except that without it the patch doesn't really balance out anything, except for giving toss better scouting capability which isn't that much of a balance change per se | ||
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TheWoodLeagueAllstar
United Kingdom617 Posts
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Nixda
119 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: This information is on page 144 of the PTR thread, but I figured it would be good to make a separate thread just to announce it as that thread is somewhat old, and I doubt a lot of people have read it. To be concise, Blizzard is reverting the following changes in the 1.2 patch based on the feedback from the PTR: 1) Bunker build time reduction removed as previously noted 2) Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units 3) It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command Post can be found here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1306100875 Wow, Blizzard taking back exactly those three points I felt bad about. I especially disliked 3) even though forum discussion seemed to take the other points more seriously. But I thought bunkers/FG change might only shift racial balance, which can be patched again later, while the no key repeating seemed unlikely to be taken back if it had gone live. So, I'm happy to see Blizzard seems to know what its doing, and I'm glad I didn't rush to the forums and started yelling. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 07 2010 19:40 SmoKim wrote: love how all the Terran and Protoss response to Zerg QQ is to QQ even more =) so much for being the ones who whines less i guess This, also: Terran complaining about colossi: vikings Terran complaining about late game TvZ: Stop spamming tier 1? Final tier zerg units aren't very good compared to final tier terran. Protoss complaining at all: Quiet, you just got a nice buff. Anyone complaining about holding down hotkeys: Uh, BW zerg could just press the button ONCE to get all their larva spawning. This really doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the "skill ceiling" because, really, spamming a button is troublesome and has nothing to do with skill. | ||
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
Didnt say Blizz they dont want to listen to all the QQ and instead see how changes effect the game in the long run? | ||
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Glacius0
Netherlands66 Posts
Zerg waits till the last minute to build a ton of units, and has to rebuild their army more than other races. This was my main reason why I thought it's important that you can hold down buttons for zerg. Also, for any race holding down a button + clicking to spellcast is a superior control method. However, I'm a little surprised how easily fungal growth was changed back. I completely agree that it should hit air for all the reasons people have stated (ZvZ, dropships, ravens, phoenix), but I am disappointed by the decisioningmaking at Blizzard. It seems that they didn't take all the disadvantages the ability to hit air into account and changed it for one specific reason, and then changed it back once we told them why the idea was bad. They should have thought it through more, and if they had then they wouldn't have to revert this change so easily (or implement it in the first place). | ||
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PizzaHash
Netherlands76 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On December 07 2010 19:53 Sewi wrote: These were exactly the cahnges I liked Didnt say Blizz they dont want to listen to all the QQ and instead see how changes effect the game in the long run? No, they said that they didn't just listen to complaints. And they didn't just listen to complaints. They had people playing on the PTR server for several days. They had statistics and replays and such. And let's face facts here; the only reason you assume that Blizzard changed this solely because of complaints is because these are things you personally wanted. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
On December 07 2010 19:59 NicolBolas wrote: And let's face facts here; the only reason you assume that Blizzard changed this solely because of complaints is because these are things you personally wanted. Ofc. I really wanted some of these changes. I dont want to QQ. Actually I am trying to watch this from a neutral perspective, not from any races point of view. My honest opinion is that without these changes, the balance changes of the new patch seem to be just not enough. The only thing really playing into Protoss favor is reduced Obs cost and target priority for repairing scvs, which I like a lot. With the Marauder still being untouched, TvP cannot be balanced imo. Please note, This is no QQing but only my opinion on the state of TvP mostly. PvZ I dont want to talk about without being able to test the phoenix buff myself. TvZ seems to be a bit broken by scv allins atm so no comments on this atm, too. | ||
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Usurper
Macedonia283 Posts
Terrible decision Blizzard. | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:20 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Now they just need to give us some balanced maps and make this a truly great patch. or even a few new imbalanced ones!!!! ya know, just to freshen things up,most of the maps in the pool ive been playing since beta.... | ||
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ZergOwaR
Norway280 Posts
though phoenix harras might be just abit more annoying as hell | ||
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Scruff
Singapore509 Posts
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ZerOfy
United Kingdom405 Posts
On December 07 2010 20:32 Scruff wrote: Wow thank god. Now they just need to increase bunker build time by 10 sec and revert back Pheonix build time. Then that will be a proper patch And let Zerg start off with two bases and we're good! | ||
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Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:19 italiangymnast wrote: because these were potentially gamebreaking. glad to see blizz taking people's feedback seriously =D <3 Lol the typical problem with a ptr. Just mass people bitching at changes because it's a nerf to their race. Very few zergs could actually rationalise and think about how much the changes actually affect them without just spouting something about how the changes to the thing they never use are "game breaking"? I've never seen a patch with LESS game breaking changes. Not saying that overall they were good or bad, but I don't see how anyone can say the small test time on some ptr that most couldn't even get the hell on to (EU) is enough to decide. And stop calling it game breaking because you like the term and are over-dramatic. | ||
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CubY
Germany93 Posts
But that is actually what they have planed because it was a test and if they wouldnt have listened to the feedback it would have been useless to do the test  | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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doerit
Germany234 Posts
Terran and Protoss still seem kinda unbalanced to me, Zerg is better imo...the fungal growth on air units is not that huge. At least I haven't seen it being used that much. | ||
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Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
On December 07 2010 21:01 doerit wrote: Hmm I don't know really know what to think about these changes, I don't think they balanced out the game better than before. Terran and Protoss still seem kinda unbalanced to me, Zerg is better imo...the fungal growth on air units is not that huge. At least I haven't seen it being used that much. Yep, it's the end of the world according to everyone who never used it in the first place. | ||
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
On December 07 2010 20:55 Zrana wrote: Changing fungal to a slow would have increased the skill needed on both sides Yep, just like ensnare in BW so that hydras can catch them | ||
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Blobskillz
Germany548 Posts
On December 07 2010 20:55 Zrana wrote: Changing fungal to a slow would have increased the skill needed on both sides ye I like that idea. slow would be better what makes fungal really strong is that units get locked down, but a slow would make it much better. | ||
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Altsa
Finland990 Posts
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Tone_
United Kingdom554 Posts
On December 07 2010 21:08 Altsa wrote: GIVE me flux veins back.. Yes. On December 07 2010 21:08 Altsa wrote: was there a reason to remove them in the 1st place? No. | ||
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doerit
Germany234 Posts
On December 07 2010 21:08 Altsa wrote: GIVE me flux veins back..was there a reason to remove them in the 1st place? How often do you see flux veins in a 1v1? I think the removal of this upgrade has zero effect on 1v1, the 20% damage buff against massive is much more important than the removal of flux veins. The void ray count used to be pretty low, players got the upgrade very rarely. On the other hand this is an upgrade that was able to break 3v3s or 4v4s, because massed rays + speed are one of the strongest things out there. And like we all know Blizzard likes to balance these matches as well. | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On December 07 2010 20:55 Tone_ wrote: Lol the typical problem with a ptr. Just mass people bitching at changes because it's a nerf to their race. Very few zergs could actually rationalise and think about how much the changes actually affect them without just spouting something about how the changes to the thing they never use are "game breaking"? I've never seen a patch with LESS game breaking changes. Not saying that overall they were good or bad, but I don't see how anyone can say the small test time on some ptr that most couldn't even get the hell on to (EU) is enough to decide. And stop calling it game breaking because you like the term and are over-dramatic. he's not being over-dramatic. Try dealing with mutas as a Zerg without fungal. It simply is NOT POSSIBLE. the only possibility would be to have more mutas, that's bad game design. if anything they could make it only affect air and that wouldn't be nearly as stupid as making it only affect ground. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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STenSatsu
United States31 Posts
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On December 07 2010 21:18 STenSatsu wrote: So what does protoss do against muta+infestor? blink stalkers or storms | ||
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Lexpar
1813 Posts
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
On December 07 2010 21:18 STenSatsu wrote: So what does protoss do against muta+infestor? Tech to HT and get storm. Pick up blink along the way. feedback all the infestors and storm the mutaling while blinking out of the storms. | ||
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Barook
Germany143 Posts
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Brother Roga
Finland38 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:20 pieisamazing wrote: So there is a God... Amen! | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
Revert the third change again! Omg, jesus fucking christ! :S:S:S:S | ||
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Alou
United States3748 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Reverting fungal seems good, i think phoenix would be problematic against Z without it. ALso it would be a silly nerf to infestors who are seeing too little use as is already imo, now at least fungal can still be used to counter drops, kill observers and stop phoenix harassment. Muta + infestor being really strong was a bit of a exageration (as it required a lot of gas) but the main problem with it was simply that muta numbers would dwarf the phoenix amount. As long as you have enough phoenix to take on the muta heads up then there really isn't that much of a issue with fungal. The fungal change matters ALOT for ZvZ though i've heard (no expert myself in that Mu). Basically it boils down to muta being viable or not in the matchup, fungal on ground only would basically make muta crap whereas fungal on air makes muta very risky / near useless. I think the latter is better from a spectator point of view but that's preference i guess. Reverting that holding down a key is possible is also good. Controls shouldn't be needlessly hard, there is plenty of stuff to micro / macro anyway. It's silly to give zerg players RSI just because they want to spam 40 zerglings. | ||
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DamnCats
United States1472 Posts
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:18 Headshot wrote: Thank. God. This. They were trolling us. | ||
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Nervegas
United States45 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo I wouldn't say it makes the game harder, when you're playing at >100 apm, the extra keystrokes don't matter. Plus, you won't accidentally create one too many units preventing you from creating one of another type. Just a better idea all around to hit each key to create stuff. | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
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darklordjac
Canada2231 Posts
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z00t
Australia976 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:27 bokchoi wrote: Thank you Blizzard! This is the Blizzard we've longed for and missed. The one who actually cares what its community thinks and tries to make a product that lives up to their expectations. On the whole, I actually have supported Blizzard's decision-making thus far. They know not to address issues that players raise too quickly because the metagame can still be quite nebulous. I know it may sound kinda lame, but even if they seem slow to react to problems, they're not ignoring the community. As for the changes themselves, I'm obviously happy that they reverted the Fungal Growth change . That's going to make a lot of Zerg players, myself included, very happy . That change in Patch 1.2 came at a time when Protoss air is seeing a resurgence. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On December 07 2010 21:23 Barook wrote: Wasn't the FG nerf supposed to be in tandem with the removal of the Flux Vanes speed upgrade? Yeah this severely limits any potential the void ray may have had in the late game. But I'm not complaining because there's still that phoenix buff. | ||
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Qwix
531 Posts
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JustinMartin
159 Posts
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
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Spiegel
Australia79 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo Lets make it that you cannot click on buildings, or units, so the skill ceiling is higher. lets also make it so that the players play with one hand so the skill ceiling is higher. This game is about making decisions not absurd degeneration of genre staples for the sake of an arbitrary "skill ceiling". | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
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Nightrain
481 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 07 2010 22:46 Darneck wrote: Does this mean that zerg ends up with another patch where they get buffed? (talking about the ultralisk aoe change) Ultralisk aoe change has already been shown to be a nerf, though there is possibly an undocumented size difference (ultralisks have less collision) | ||
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ToF.CheckMate
Canada16 Posts
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:09 ToF.CheckMate wrote: Just so you all know, Blizzard thinks that it's hilarious when Zerg QQs. And they read every single post on Battle.net, and they have a system where they keep track of your posts. So if you're always QQing, and flaming Blizzard, they're more likely to ignore you. Just a pro-tip for all those people saying that Zerg QQ is finally paying off. They read the official forums, you mean? Why? The place is a joke. Not because of the forum, but because of the posters. It's all QQ. | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:16 The KY wrote: They read the official forums, you mean? Why? The place is a joke. Not because of the forum, but because of the posters. It's all QQ. and he just said they have a system in place to see who is a qq:er meaning they dont really take that account serious after a certain amount of posts that are just qq. simple yet effective. Maybe with that system in place the bnet forums actually are worth something. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Malhavoc
Italy308 Posts
It still surprises me that they are reverting just the changes that REALLY looked wrong, while leaving all that was looking good or reasonable. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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MuteZephyr
Lithuania448 Posts
The bunker change on the other hand I didn't see nor play a single game that warranted the change back. I think the 'feedback' came from all the theorycrafting people who continue to incessantly QQ about Terran regardless of what happens. It very well have may needed a change back , don't get me wrong, but IMO it was too early to tell. It was a pretty useless change really. Oh well, all in all, I'm happy to see this. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:53 Griffith` wrote: So basically, terran gets another nerf (scv repair), zerg still op as hell late game, protoss better early game and easy access to air. Well, considering how many games out of a hundred that actually get to the point where zerg becomes OP (1) I guess it isnt as high of a priority? Besides, zerg isnt any more OP lategame than terran is earlygame, the difference is that early game actually stops being early game after a while, lategame doesn't stop being lategame, ever. | ||
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
all the Zerg that fliped out can now continue to never ever build infestors against enemy air. be honest here: how many times did you have a enemy zerg build infestors against your airforce? compare it with the widespread panic across all the starcraft2 forums. seem just a little.. disproportionate. | ||
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Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On December 07 2010 22:46 Darneck wrote: Does this mean that zerg ends up with another patch where they get buffed? (talking about the ultralisk aoe change) Are you stupid? Zerg didn't get a single buff afaik, and if zerg is not being nerfed that does not mean zerg being buffed. | ||
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pirates
United States701 Posts
On December 07 2010 22:46 Darneck wrote: Does this mean that zerg ends up with another patch where they get buffed? (talking about the ultralisk aoe change) the change does nothing really. and any game where a zerg player has ultras... you've probably already lost... Gotta love bronze level players with opinions on every major change in the game :3 | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:44 PulseSUI wrote: got to love it. all the Zerg that fliped out can now continue to never ever build infestors against enemy air. be honest here: how many times did you have a enemy zerg build infestors against your airforce? compare it with the widespread panic across all the starcraft2 forums. seem just a little.. disproportionate. Just because infestors are underused against air RIGHT NOW does not mean there isn't an issue. Seriously, I don't understand why people think this game is going to remain static when it's changed dramatically every two weeks or whatever. Having tried out infestors against air units, I actually think Fungal Growth is amazingly strong. Completely negating the 'air unit' in air units is incredibly deadly. I just think that the infestor would need some other ability buff to remain viable against air (like a buff to infested terran or neural parasite). | ||
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:44 PulseSUI wrote: got to love it. all the Zerg that fliped out can now continue to never ever build infestors against enemy air. be honest here: how many times did you have a enemy zerg build infestors against your airforce? compare it with the widespread panic across all the starcraft2 forums. seem just a little.. disproportionate. In ZvZ? All the time. I also stopped drops with them, and I've seen tournament games where medivacs were sniped the same way. | ||
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RedHelix
250 Posts
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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fenster
United States73 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:44 PulseSUI wrote: got to love it. all the Zerg that fliped out can now continue to never ever build infestors against enemy air. be honest here: how many times did you have a enemy zerg build infestors against your airforce? compare it with the widespread panic across all the starcraft2 forums. seem just a little.. disproportionate. Are you a Z player? I play Zerg and I build infestors almost every ZvZ I play because I don't like muta/ling/blin in that mu. Honestly ZvZ would have been a total shitfest with that fungal change. | ||
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TrANCE,
301 Posts
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Romple
United States57 Posts
And most good zerg players know how to use infestors. Hell if you've ever watched a Catz stream or TLO match you'll see some very impressive use of them. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:02 Apolo wrote: Perhaps instead of stopping air units FG should only slow them down. Stopping removes almost all micro from the equation from the victim player, and is probably too strong if it catches a bunch of clumped flying units. Ever heard of stasis? FG is fine the way it is, the infestors are a ridiculously slow and expensive unit, they deserve to have its place. Also phoenix-harass will be ridiculous now anyways. Removal of Flux Vanes makes no sense....NOW - if Blizz was serious about their attempt to end colossus-wars PvP then Flux Vanes would be very much needed. Also Toss relies on speed rays to have "something" in lategame vs Zerg, speed was the only way to prevent that your rays get crippled by mutas. | ||
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DiZasteR
Netherlands84 Posts
As for the fungal hitting air again... (playing Z so you know) I dont really know what to feel about it. I of course don't mind it keep hitting air, but i wouldn't mind much if it did not hit air anymore, zergs would probably be able to adapt to the phoenix play which would have become common. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:27 FarbrorAbavna wrote: and he just said they have a system in place to see who is a qq:er meaning they dont really take that account serious after a certain amount of posts that are just qq. simple yet effective. Maybe with that system in place the bnet forums actually are worth something. Well the EU forums...I doubt it. There's no diamonds in the rough there. Just rough. And shit in the rough. Maybe US and KR have some people who aren't there just to make threads called 'Blizz please fix Terran!!' | ||
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Fushin
France193 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:12 sleepingdog wrote: Ever heard of stasis? FG is fine the way it is, the infestors are a ridiculously slow and expensive unit, they deserve to have its place. Also phoenix-harass will be ridiculous now anyways. Removal of Flux Vanes makes no sense....NOW - if Blizz was serious about their attempt to end colossus-wars PvP then Flux Vanes would be very much needed. Also Toss relies on speed rays to have "something" in lategame vs Zerg, speed was the only way to prevent that your rays get crippled by mutas. Well, stasis didn't dot the units, it actually made them invincible during the spell, while making them unable to fire or move...big difference here. | ||
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Badboyrune
Sweden2247 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:14 Fushin wrote: Well, stasis didn't dot the units, it actually made them invincible during the spell, while making them unable to fire or move...big difference here. I tried to argue against the "non-micro" part - the ability to "disable" the movement of your opponent isn't something that's bad for the game, imo. | ||
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resilve
United Kingdom678 Posts
Its positive, but nobody should be under the illusion that they ever really intended them to go live! | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:02 Apolo wrote: Perhaps instead of stopping air units FG should only slow them down. Stopping removes almost all micro from the equation from the victim player, and is probably too strong if it catches a bunch of clumped flying units. In late game a couple of infestors FGing a group of Vikings is GG for Terran since they are the only way to fight BL. Just slowing them down would make more sense. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:50 pirates wrote: the change does nothing really. and any game where a zerg player has ultras... you've probably already lost... Gotta love bronze level players with opinions on every major change in the game :3 Since when does a question become an opinion? I haven't really been following the PTR stuff that much but I had heard that the ultralisk change was considered an "unofficial" buff. Sure the way I asked the question could be interpreted as if I don't agree with it but I actually don't really care at all, was just wondering. | ||
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Craton
United States17241 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote: In late game a couple of infestors FGing a group of Vikings is GG for Terran since they are the only way to fight BL. Just slowing them down would make more sense. It's no different than fungaling phoenixes and essentially auto-winning as a result. I hope this 'reversal' is just temporary for numbers sake and that in the end the FG nerf goes through. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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Dreaming11
United Kingdom105 Posts
But against terran, infestors are a must, because every terran at least at my level loves marines and marauders. zergling -> baneling -> lair -> infestor is my build against terrans. If they try to mix it up with drop play, the infestor may not perfectly get the dropship every time, but one or two times it -will- get it, and my banelings can kill the dropped marines and my queen can have a good go at the dropship. It 'forces' the terran to reconsider just continuously dropping until you invest into a 'hard' counter like corruptors or hydras at which point he just rolls in your front with his siegetanks. In ZvZ its the same, if it makes it past the early stages then you want infestors and want to be making the most of them to lock down and weaken up the enemy army. If he comes in with mutas, you want the infestors there to make him reconsider massing 200/200 of muta (which will destroy you one way or the other anyway). The infestor is in many ways a signalling unit. Like a siege tank or a colossus, if you get it out in the field you are telling your opponent 'you cannot use [a certain strategy] against me without facing the consequences, unless you deal with my [special unit]'. Of course, you could still use drop play and snipe the infestor, or you could use mutas and spread them... get the phoenix in there quick before he responds and it brings nice micro into the game. It doesn't totally nullify air at least not in platinum play. But it does often make your opponent revise his strategy and play to your tune. | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:14 Badboyrune wrote: I feel like this is almost unheard of. After having played WoW for far too many years I've become so used to that changes that make it onto PTR always go live, no matter how much whine or how bad the change was. Seeing Blizzard actually listen and take action before things go live makes me think that SC2 devs are quite different from WoW devs, in a good way. There is a big difference between WoW and SC2. WoW has 11 million players. Assuming 90% retarded (since it is the internet), thats a lot of voice that needs to be skipped, its hard to find the 100-200 that actually know what they are doing. I have a feeling that its pretty easy to get feedback from the pros in this game... and thats what they did. | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
Good news I was kind of dreading the next patch for those reasons. Still don't know how I feel about losing VR speed though I suppose it's for the best. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
I'm still waiting for the corruptor buff. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:42 Zephirdd wrote: Well, still sucks that VR became an anti-massive instead of a harassing tool, but it should help somehow. Con someone please tell me what this "+20%to massive" means? Like how does the attack modifiers look like? | ||
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kuroshiro
United Kingdom378 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:52 Sapphire.lux wrote: Con someone please tell me what this "+20%to massive" means? Like how does the attack modifiers look like? From what I've heard the tool-tip isn't updated yet, but it does exactly what it says on the tin i.e. the void ray does x damage to normal units, x+a to armored, x+m to massive (where m is 20% of x) and x+a+m to armored+massive. According to posts on the blizz forums at least. | ||
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number1gog
United States1081 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
and x+a+m to armored+massive. no, that's not right. m in that case is 20% of (x+a). its not x + a + (.2*x) its x+a+(.2*(x+a)) | ||
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Almin
United States583 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:01 kuroshiro wrote: From what I've heard the tool-tip isn't updated yet, but it does exactly what it says on the tin i.e. the void ray does x damage to normal units, x+a to armored, x+m to massive (where m is 20% of x) and x+a+m to armored+massive. According to posts on the blizz forums at least. I see. Thax! Blizz does not like mech for TvP at all. | ||
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VeNoM HaZ Skill
United States1528 Posts
I dont really think that was the case, but look at it from here. I'm like an 1600ish zerg on the KR ladder. And after facing crap tons of timing attacks, you start to realize (even though you wont like it) you have to change up your builds to win. I'm not saying its easy, but since when is winning ever easy? (On a side note: if they kept the bunker time reduce, I would have quit SC2 =_=) And as for WoW, i dont play it, but i'm sure its much more important to balance the national sport of Korea, over the bastard child of Diablo and Warcraft... | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
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leakingpear
United Kingdom302 Posts
I think if there's problems with FG vs air then a better solution would be to cause it to cause significant slowdown instead of completely immobilising. This would allow drops to get away more often against pure infestor-as-anti-air and would also allow some micro (while using your ground force as a buffer) of vikings against corruptor/broodlord lategame. I think the change to void rays is possibly as a result of their power in late game PvZ when they reach a critical mass they require huge amounts of hydras or corruptors to stop and having them be able to move from one side of the map to the other really quickly is almost impossible because hydras even on creep aren't that fast and VRs in large numbers can take out buildings incredibly fast, infestors were a good response but their low hp and high priority made it 10x harder to defend than it was to attack (as protoss). That said, I didn't think this was being done enough for it to necessarily be fixed as zergs could feasibly deal with it with having burrowed infestors ready. That said if the no-air fungal thing had gone through it would've been bad but there probably would've been some approach involving doom drops and nydus or something. | ||
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Faze.
Canada285 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3359 Posts
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dantroid
United States10 Posts
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funk100
United Kingdom172 Posts
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: I see. Thax! Blizz does not like mech for TvP at all. looks like were destined to "win" before lategame, air switches kill mech hard enough as it is :/ didn't pick T to play the BW "equivilent" of PvT but it looks like blizzard has other plans. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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Faze.
Canada285 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:42 funk100 wrote: i am really annoyed at blizzard, the fungal change might have made some cool changes. You're mixing up "cool" and "bad". | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
.Most zergs feared that ZvZ will be BW 2.0 or mass mutas again. And that 25/25 reduction for obs might help with polt atacks :D.50/50 for 2 obs means almost a sentry . On a more serious note,what effect would had been if FG would had slown air units by 50% instead of killing them ? It would still stop air harass,especially for slow targets like carriers/voids(considering there is no Flux Vanes anymore). I mean FG to be more Ensnare then Maelstrom.Would that be worse then stun ? It would still give zergs a posibility to stop air harass while leaving air harass viable for the rest of races. And from what i understood,FG stun doesnt affect ground units anymore? That means u cant FG and roll the banelols in against MM ? I think that is the greatest change of them all imho. | ||
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Faze.
Canada285 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:47 Akash wrote: This changes are really imba.For the first time in 10.000 years,blizz really listened to the ppl .Most zergs feared that ZvZ will be BW 2.0 or mass mutas again. And that 25/25 reduction for obs might help with polt atacks :D.50/50 for 2 obs means almost a sentry . On a more serious note,what effect would had been if FG would had slown air units by 50% instead of killing them ? It would still stop air harass,especially for slow targets like carriers/voids(considering there is no Flux Vanes anymore). I mean FG to be more Ensnare then Maelstrom.Would that be worse then stun ? It would still give zergs a posibility to stop air harass while leaving air harass viable for the rest of races. And from what i understood,FG stun doesnt affect ground units anymore? That means u cant FG and roll the banelols in against MM ? I think that is the greatest change of them all imho. No, you are confused, FG still works on ground unit, as it should in a balanced game. | ||
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cactuschewer
United Kingdom152 Posts
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Urmel
Germany8 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:49 Faze. wrote: No, you are confused, FG still works on ground unit, as it should in a balanced game. Well i read Bashiok's post who said "Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units".And i understood that "terrestrial limitation has been removed" by that it doesnt affects ground units anymore.My bad.I apologize . | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:47 Akash wrote:And that 25/25 reduction for obs might help with polt atacks :D.50/50 for 2 obs means almost a sentry . The problem with getting observers is that the opportunity cost of building an obs is super high. Making the observer slightly cheaper makes it easier for tosses to feel OK about halting colossus and immortal production in the mid and lategame. It also makes non-robo more viable because the cost of getting two (necessary) observers out is down from 300/300 to 250/250, which makes a huge difference. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:07 Akash wrote: Well i read Bashiok's post who said "Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units".And i understood that "terrestrial limitation has been removed" by that it doesnt affects ground units anymore.My bad.I apologize .You must not forget the word Limitation. so that mean FG is not limited to the ground anymore | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:46 Grebliv wrote: looks like were destined to "win" before lategame, air switches kill mech hard enough as it is :/ didn't pick T to play the BW "equivilent" of PvT but it looks like blizzard has other plans. Yeah. Balance we may have, but God damn is it not fun to spam Marauders Meh.., maybe some day Blizz will adress both the Marauder spam (vs Protoss) and Marine spam (vs Zerg) just makes for shit games. Gona continue playing mech in both MUs even if i lose at least it's fun gameplay | ||
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kYem
United Kingdom412 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:42 Zephirdd wrote: Well, still sucks that VR became an anti-massive instead of a harassing tool, but it should help somehow. I'm still waiting for the corruptor buff. What are you talking about...... they removed speed which was almost never used until P is like on 3 base at least, late late game...... It still the same voidray with extra dmg vs massive. It wont effect harassment in anyway unless you are talking about 2v2 3v3 or something like that... | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:10 GagnarTheUnruly wrote: The problem with getting observers is that the opportunity cost of building an obs is super high. Making the observer slightly cheaper makes it easier for tosses to feel OK about halting colossus and immortal production in the mid and lategame. It also makes non-robo more viable because the cost of getting two (necessary) observers out is down from 300/300 to 250/250, which makes a huge difference. Ofc and it will give a better a chance against polt atacks or iEchoic's timing push.That 50/50 will mean a faster stargate or another sentry/stalker.Everything counts. | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
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Skuller
United States197 Posts
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HARMevent
Barbados28 Posts
edit: don't care that much about FG VR or bunkers; they can change the game all they want. The button pressin thing was just dumb. | ||
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Moody
United States750 Posts
... ........ | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:41 Moody wrote: Just want to point out that ~95% of people saying "w00 go blizzard! Game so balanced now!" have a Zerg icon next to their name... ... ........ Because the The New Zerg World Order has been restored (joke) .On a serious note,this is a big patch for toss too.Why? First of all,altough the changes arent so game breaking,there are the first buffs toss got sine BETA!! Il take any buffs to toss .Any small buff is better then no buff.And no,faster bult phoenixes wont deal with mass mutas,but will give us some sort of early harass,until DT can be afforded. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! Because in WoW they have to balance PvE and PvP at the same time, so something that might be gamebreaking from one POV isn't from another.... there is no such destinction in SC2 apart from what will break one match up and won't break another.... but in SC2 breaking 1 mu is enough to warrant is being reverted. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! The WoW balance team is comprised of howler monkeys who behave exactly like how Yahtzee describes in the "Duke Nukem Forever" review. Really, it's the only way I can rationalize how that game was managed. | ||
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zhouzhou
Canada138 Posts
Heh, those changes were kinda dumb to begin with. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:35 mprs wrote: There is a big difference between WoW and SC2. WoW has 11 million players. Assuming 90% retarded (since it is the internet), thats a lot of voice that needs to be skipped, its hard to find the 100-200 that actually know what they are doing. I have a feeling that its pretty easy to get feedback from the pros in this game... and thats what they did. Let's keep in mind that the pros are the most biased people on the planet. Also, they play the game a lot differently than the rest of us (a million+). Not that their opinions don't matter, but you have to take them with a grain of salt. There's really no way to perfectly balance the game since Blizz has to make the game the same for bronze players, team games, and pros. For example, a lot of pros probably think marines are way too good (and if you watch Foxer you probably agree). The thing is, while Foxer's marines might be OP, that doesn't mean that the kids in bronze league or even diamond need to have their marines nerfed. Last time I checked you can't nerf marines for one player... | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:41 Moody wrote: Just want to point out that ~95% of people saying "w00 go blizzard! Game so balanced now!" have a Zerg icon next to their name... ... ........ Yea, how dare those evil Zerg like that blizzard had common sense and listened to the feedback of the test server. The nerve of them. | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:52 Offhand wrote: The WoW balance team is comprised of howler monkeys who behave exactly like how Yahtzee describes in the "Duke Nukem Forever" review. Really, it's the only way I can rationalize how that game was managed. No.WoW's balance team is mostly comprised of the Everquest's top guild "Fires of Heaven" ppl(or that is what ppl whisper ).Who boicoted everquest so ppl can jump into wow.If that wouldnt not happen,wow would not had such great start,because everquest is still one of the contenders for PvE content.Kalgan was in it as some of them. For those who arent familiarized with Kalgan,he is rumored to be the developer to keep the retri pala nerfed during Vanilla ,or that is the rumored,i tell u what i heard.And regarding wow's balance,blizz didnt agreed giving each spell a PvE and PvP effect to make those 2 departments balanced accordingly.By doing so,every buff/nerf to a spell who tryed to balance/nerf its PvE effect,nerfed/balanced its PvP effect also,increasing the imbalance. U can call it the "WoW balance enthropy effect" . | ||
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Chewie
Denmark708 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 greycubed wrote: Nice. Was dreading all three of those. So nice... | ||
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Lil.Sassy
United States54 Posts
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cronican
Canada424 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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DustyShelf
United Kingdom111 Posts
I.E. The further away from your base you build it, the longer it takes. I don't understand why a offensive bunker should take the same amount of time to build as a defensive one (as the build time nerf was in response to offensive bunkers ONLY). | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:06 vOdToasT wrote: Hilarious that they made bunkers build faster in the first place. Wtf were they thinking? They weren't thinking about PvT, which is surprisingly unchanged by this patch unless people start using void rays again. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
give me a break people. these changes are going to really help protoss. hallucination can be a great addition early and thats what protoss needs. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:01 Akash wrote: No.WoW's balance team is mostly comprised of the Everquest's top guild "Fires of Heaven" ppl(or that is what ppl whisper ).Who boicoted everquest so ppl can jump into wow.If that wouldnt not happen,wow would not had such great start,because everquest is still one of the contenders for PvE content.Kalgan was in it as some of them. For those who arent familiarized with Kalgan,he is rumored to be the developer to keep the retri pala nerfed during Vanilla ,or that is the rumored,i tell u what i heard.And regarding wow's balance,blizz didnt agreed giving each spell a PvE and PvP effect to make those 2 departments balanced accordingly.By doing so,every buff/nerf to a spell who tryed to balance/nerf its PvE effect,nerfed/balanced its PvP effect also,increasing the imbalance. U can call it the "WoW balance enthropy effect" .i really really dont belive that wow's balance team is comprimised of a everqust guild. that sounds like something peple want to believe in | ||
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pwnasaurus
Canada190 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 -orb- wrote: Huh. I actually liked the not-being-able-to-hold-down-keys thing. Anything that makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo Holy fuck man I couldn't facepalm at this more. Tapping a key repeatedly is not skill. That is how you break your keyboard. 'Skill' is based more on decision making and unit control, not bashing your keyboard faster than your opponent. | ||
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
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Foreplay
United States1154 Posts
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:18 pwnasaurus wrote: Holy fuck man I couldn't facepalm at this more. Tapping a key repeatedly is not skill. That is how you break your keyboard. 'Skill' is based more on decision making and unit control, not bashing your keyboard faster than your opponent. to make a zergling, it should be down, right, down, z. that definitely "makes the game harder and increases the skill ceiling imo" | ||
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Gr4ndmasterSexy
Germany27 Posts
they just should take some of the icc maps, they are so great. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:14 PhiliBiRD wrote: i really really dont belive that wow's balance team is comprimised of a everqust guild. that sounds like something peple want to believe in It is well-known history that Tigole (one of their lead "balance consultants") was the long time leader of Legacy of Steel from the Nameless Server in old-skool EQ. He literally got that position by having a history of posting "these things should be done to make this encounter more fun" and Sony inexplicably changing exactly those things suggested. Blizzard offered to pay him money for the same services. Believe it or not, people DO find long careers out of being gamer geeks that can put the game first. | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:26 Jermstuddog wrote: It is well-known history that Tigole (one of their lead "balance consultants") was the long time leader of Legacy of Steel from the Nameless Server in old-skool EQ. He literally got that position by having a history of posting "these things should be done to make this encounter more fun" and Sony inexplicably changing exactly those things suggested. Blizzard offered to pay him money for the same services. Believe it or not, people DO find long careers out of being gamer geeks that can put the game first. So behind every legend there is a seed of truth! | ||
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joheinous
Iceland522 Posts
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Allegria
Switzerland83 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: This information is on page 144 of the PTR thread, but I figured it would be good to make a separate thread just to announce it as that thread is somewhat old, and I doubt a lot of people have read it. To be concise, Blizzard is reverting the following changes in the 1.2 patch based on the feedback from the PTR: 1) Bunker build time reduction removed as previously noted 2) Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units 3) It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command Post can be found here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1306100875 Wow. Yesterday, they released the most enjoyable expansion for WoW so far, and today they revert terrible changes back. I Love You Blizzard =) | ||
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aRRR
Netherlands21 Posts
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:59 Neo.NEt wrote: Let's keep in mind that the pros are the most biased people on the planet. Also, they play the game a lot differently than the rest of us (a million+). Not that their opinions don't matter, but you have to take them with a grain of salt. There's really no way to perfectly balance the game since Blizz has to make the game the same for bronze players, team games, and pros. For example, a lot of pros probably think marines are way too good (and if you watch Foxer you probably agree). The thing is, while Foxer's marines might be OP, that doesn't mean that the kids in bronze league or even diamond need to have their marines nerfed. Last time I checked you can't nerf marines for one player... This. While Foxer's marines are op, when the horrible people in silver don't know how to back marines up and 75 marines get evaporated in seconds to 2 colossus, it makes you wonder how to really balance things out for everyone. Played a guy yesterday who stimmed down a ramp with mass marines/Medivacs into +2 armor chargelots and 4 colossus + guardian shield. Battle lasted about 3 seconds and he cried about marines sucking. | ||
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Nocthem
Canada71 Posts
im just.. so happy they did not made this change to live... gg gl hf blizzard. | ||
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Patientia
United States9 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/d6lPF.jpg) "The Last Patch" From the left, Yellow (SC1 Zerg Pro), Jungwon (Gom TV Caster), Terran Operator (Notice the kneeling position), Fruit Dealer (TSL), Choya (FOU), Hongun (Prime-WE), David Kim with his 1.2 Patch, MC (OGS-Liquid), Rain (TSL), Jinro (OGS-Liquid), Killer (TSL), Daeman (Gom TV Caster), anonymous Protoss Zealot? On the table, there are an apple (for Fruit Dealer), a sting ray (called Hong-uh in Korea, Hongun's nickname), Cheese (for Rain), So-ju the Korean traditional alcoholic beverage (for Jinro) Nice Work. from PlayXP (made by Totoshu) | ||
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Scoop
Finland482 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:04 Lil.Sassy wrote: I really hope this is based more on actual testing instead of just a ton of Zergs whining. Yeah they gave it a week and figured that Zerg players suck ass without fungal on air. Seriously. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:54 Sm3agol wrote: This. While Foxer's marines are op, when the horrible people in silver don't know how to back marines up and 75 marines get evaporated in seconds to 2 colossus, it makes you wonder how to really balance things out for everyone. Played a guy yesterday who stimmed down a ramp with mass marines/Medivacs into +2 armor chargelots and 4 colossus + guardian shield. Battle lasted about 3 seconds and he cried about marines sucking. if you've been around for BW, then you should have seen the idiotic shit they were saying about imbalance then. EDIT : weeeeeeeeeeeeeee I've just been promoted to firebat !!!! thanks TL.net, but could you get some SC2 icons? I want to be a Marauder, please! | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
when any other races qqs, they get nothing thx blizzard for balancing that game Edit: I'm not saying that the game is broken but t and p has so few choices against a zerg (pylon block- 2 rax pressure into something) | ||
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Scoop
Finland482 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:14 1Eris1 wrote: I like how no one ever called FG OP, until blizz thought it needed a nerf. and now that it's not being nerfed it's suddenly OP. give me a break people. these changes are going to really help protoss. hallucination can be a great addition early and thats what protoss needs. Research hallucinate, that you'll use for one phoenix during the whole game, or make a stargate/robo/more units. Wow, I think I know what I'll do. I don't even know what hallucination costs but I'm quite sure it costs gas. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Edit: I'm not saying that the game is broken but t and p has so few choices against a zerg (pylon block- 2 rax pressure into something) That's not true at all. Econ-heavy stargate openings are terrific in PvZ, and once a Toss gets to 3 base 200/200, they are nearly unstoppable. The idea that Toss can't beat Zerg in a long game is pure myth. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: That's not true at all. Econ-heavy stargate openings are terrific in PvZ, and once a Toss gets to 3 base 200/200, they are nearly unstoppable. The idea that Toss can't beat Zerg in a long game is pure myth. Still pylon block-fe-stargate-tons of warpgate stuff is better than anything imo | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:09 Hyperionnn wrote: when zerg qqs they get what they want when any other races qqs, they get nothing thx blizzard for balancing that game Edit: I'm not saying that the game is broken but t and p has so few choices against a zerg (pylon block- 2 rax pressure into something) man, it's kinda broken at least protoss have some viable moving AOE, but terran only has tanks that don't move, nukes that are slow and huge cast time or HSM that is expensive and easily dodged. how can you keep up to a macroing zerg as terran ? | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Still pylon block-fe-stargate-tons of warpgate stuff is better than anything imo I dunno. On big maps where its tough to send a big ground force early on (like Scrap Station), or maps where you can easily defend multiple bases through one ramp/chokepoint (like Jungle Basin), walling in with Cannons and Pylons, pumping probes like crazy, then going for a double Stargate can be really, really nasty. Guinea Pig did this build (18 Nexus 37 stargate I believe...his economy was ridiculous) and won, and Fruit was so terrified of this opening vs. HongUn on scrap station that he basically did a blind all-in. It's not widely known, but when used purely for econ, chronoboost is actually the strongest macro mechanic. Look on any build order calculator and ask how long it will take Zerg, protoss and Terran to get to a given worker count, and Toss will win. The issue is, if you do that you build an army so slow you're insanely vulnerable. But if you can easily defend multiple bases vs. ground in the early game, Protoss econ is scary. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:15 MindRush wrote: man, it's kinda broken at least protoss have some viable moving AOE, but terran only has tanks that don't move, nukes that are slow and huge cast time or HSM that is expensive and easily dodged. how can you keep up to a macroing zerg as terran ? newsflash, tanks actually do move.......... | ||
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Scoop
Finland482 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:12 awesomoecalypse wrote: That's not true at all. Econ-heavy stargate openings are terrific in PvZ, and once a Toss gets to 3 base 200/200, they are nearly unstoppable. The idea that Toss can't beat Zerg in a long game is pure myth. Econ heavy stargate openings are a myth. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Research hallucinate, that you'll use for one phoenix during the whole game, or make a stargate/robo/more units. Wow, I think I know what I'll do. I don't even know what hallucination costs but I'm quite sure it costs gas. Hallucinate is actually pretty nasty if it comes out early enough. Even if most players have the capacity to get detection either by scanning or morphing in overseers, they so ararely expect hallucination that most won't use it. If you make an early PvT push using hallucinated Zealots to tank, 9 times out of the 10 the Terran will just assume they're real and waste a ton of his attacks on them. | ||
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Pharaun
Germany150 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:22 Fayth wrote: newsflash, tanks actually do move.......... hes talking about when it is fungaled. colossi still move if fungaled since they are massive type | ||
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Blacksoul87
United States12 Posts
the voidray change will have the biggest impact on pvz and not anything else. voidrays are almost the only unit who can handle a zerg t3 army. it wont change anything in pvp and pvt I think that it may have the biggest impact on PVP since you could go chargelot voidray vs the typical colo stalker composition and possibly mop up although I could be wrong. And I think protoss have a lot of options against tier 3 zerg cause once collosi get to a critical mass of like 6 or 8 they will eat up even ultralisks with little support and broodlords can really only be used if zerg has maintained air superiority. And ultralisks just seem to act retarded when they aren't being babysat even their ability to break forcefields is useless when zerglings get stuck in between them and the forcefield | ||
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Phantasy
United States16 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:09 Hyperionnn wrote: SO SO wrong.when zerg qqs they get what they want when any other races qqs, they get nothing thx blizzard for balancing that game Edit: I'm not saying that the game is broken but t and p has so few choices against a zerg (pylon block- 2 rax pressure into something) Terran and protoss had some beneficial changes, and zerg are certainly missing many desired ones). Need to look at things objectively in the big picture. | ||
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jgreen46
Canada94 Posts
I can still play ZvZ now :D | ||
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DoubleLariat
Canada190 Posts
Not saying that's what would have happened here... but I'm worried now. People are just going to keep QQing instead of taking things as they are and trying to get better. | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
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jeebuzzx
Canada365 Posts
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KenNage
Chile885 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:43 aRRR wrote: The zerg mafia is still active as you can see. i lol'd so hard on this so its basically toss buff, terran nerf, and zerg stays the same | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:43 aRRR wrote: The zerg mafia is still active as you can see. I wonder how many people know who this is. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/4FwlP.jpg) On topic, i'm glad the complaining about the hotkey change being reverted has died down. That one really had me worried for these forums. | ||
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I Hott Sauce I
United States91 Posts
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:00 DoubleLariat wrote: Really hoping that this doesn't become too big of a precedent... where Blizzard proposes some change that on it's face seems to be ridiculous and crippling to a race, but in fact it would have made some massive shift to the game that was awesome and amazing. Not saying that's what would have happened here... but I'm worried now. People are just going to keep QQing instead of taking things as they are and trying to get better. Every change will has QQ, but the fungal nerf also had a lot of very good players looking closely at the ZvZ matchup and 2gate Stargate openers and came to some pretty grim conclusions. A week of PTR (which had some damn high skilled players) must not have disproven this. ZvZ was my biggest concern with the fungal nerf - fungal was really the only punishment for going mutas. Imagine TvZ with no stim on marines or thors - and missile turrets dealing half damage. Imagine ZvP with no phoenix or stalker blink. What do you do about a muta contain in that situation? The only answer was to build more mutas - but getting more mutas early means you can get a base ahead of the opponent = more gas = more mutas. | ||
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Leeto
United States1320 Posts
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Goggalor
United States310 Posts
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:21 Msrobinson wrote: The steps that the Blizzard Development team has taken today will be seen as a standard for all future Development Teams to follow. Thou shalt listen to thy players, and then thou shalt act accordingly to their whims, lest be flamed. Being as such, us, the players, may look forward to a game in which is made fun by the players, for the players. wtf you on about, it's liek you have never been involved in any other games development, tons of developers take feedback from players correctly and changes stuff accordingly. | ||
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Cent
Canada155 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:12 KenNage wrote: i lol'd so hard on this so its basically toss buff, terran nerf, and zerg stays the same I wouldn't call +20% massive damage from VRs at the cost of Flux Vanes a buff, and the rest is honestly pretty minor. | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
Now we just need to convince blizzard to revert the medivac speed nerf and supply depot first boringizer. | ||
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Hugoboss21
France346 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:38 kzn wrote: I wouldn't call +20% massive damage from VRs at the cost of Flux Vanes a buff, and the rest is honestly pretty minor. -10 sec on phenix is pretty big for me. | ||
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KenNage
Chile885 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:38 kzn wrote: I wouldn't call +20% massive damage from VRs at the cost of Flux Vanes a buff, and the rest is honestly pretty minor. yeah don't forget -10 sec on phoenix build time | ||
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CuttyFlam
Belgium523 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:46 KenNage wrote: yeah don't forget -10 sec on phoenix build time In my (granted, fairly low-level) opinion, all that change manages to do is make phoenixes an effective reaction to mutalisks, where before they were only a "counter" if you blindly made them. I don't see it being particularly big of a change in PvT or PvP, and frankly I'd take +10s on Phoenix and -20% massive damage in exchange for Flux Vanes in PvZ if I had the choice. | ||
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LazyMacro
976 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:39 Hugoboss21 wrote: -10 sec on phenix is pretty big for me. Yeah, that's so huge. I mean, when I go 2gate phoenix in response to seeing a spire go up, I get tons of phoenix pretty quickly anyway. Now they can't mass more muta than I can phoenix. | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
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Vansetsu
United States1454 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
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Blacksoul87
United States12 Posts
One of the most interesting aspects of the Phoenix change is that Phoenix build time unchronoboosted is only slightly longer than the chronoboosted build time of Phoenixes pre-patch. In other words, if pre-path you had a build which used Phoenixes well but involved chronoboosting them out...you can instead just chronoboost probes, and you'll have Phoenixes almost as quickly as you would have had them pre-patch anyway. In other words, Protoss can now power probes and ramp up their econ while still being aggressive via air. I think the best part of this is that it will allow you to compete with transition play. heavy roaches early on then transitioning into mutas later was what I struggled with cause prepping for the roaches almost always meant you would get overwhelmed by mutas later and prepping to early for mutas meant you got stomped by a heavy roach push | ||
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EddyBee
Netherlands46 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Accessibility\Keyboard Response] "AutoRepeatDelay"="250" "AutoRepeatRate"="13" "BounceTime"="0" "DelayBeforeAcceptance"="6" "Flags"="59" So it doesnt really matter if they leave it in or take it out... | ||
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god deezy yo
49 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:53 TurtlePerson2 wrote: The FG change was going to revolutionize TvZ. I guess it's back to trying to win TvZ in the first five minutes. what are you talking about? it changed pvz and zvz way way way more than tvz... it pretty much didn't effect tvz at all. | ||
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Smurfz
United States327 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
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-Strider-
Mexico1605 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:07 EddyBee wrote: The "It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command" was silly to begin with as you can simply set it in the regedit.com function of windows... + Show Spoiler + [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Accessibility\Keyboard Response] "AutoRepeatDelay"="250" "AutoRepeatRate"="13" "BounceTime"="0" "DelayBeforeAcceptance"="6" "Flags"="59" So it doesnt really matter if they leave it in or take it out... Explain this more? | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
This is not true. I actually manually lowered my AutoRepeatDelay so I wouldn't have to wait as long for the repeat function to take effect while holding the key down. This works in the retail version, but made no difference in the PTR, as the changes in the PTR appeared to monitor the keyPressed and KeyReleased events, which are separate from the AutoRepeat functions. There could probably still be some way around this with a custom keyboard or some more serious kernel level hacking, but modifying that AutoRepeatDelay in the registry doesn't change it. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:07 EddyBee wrote: The "It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command" was silly to begin with as you can simply set it in the regedit.com function of windows... + Show Spoiler + [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Accessibility\Keyboard Response] "AutoRepeatDelay"="250" "AutoRepeatRate"="13" "BounceTime"="0" "DelayBeforeAcceptance"="6" "Flags"="59" So it doesnt really matter if they leave it in or take it out... No, programs can override that, as SC2 has. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:09 god deezy yo wrote: what are you talking about? it changed pvz and zvz way way way more than tvz... it pretty much didn't effect tvz at all. Fungaling vikings in late game, when going Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor was pretty necessary. Besides that, fungaling medivacs before they unload their cargo (or to prevent them from getting away) in your drone line was pretty darn useful, and seen a lot. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:43 Johnny_Vegas wrote: No, programs can override that, as SC2 has. Yeah - SC2 can read the keyboard hardware input rather than the windows API. | ||
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nehl
Germany270 Posts
glad to read this°° the fungal would have been to much i guess | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:53 TurtlePerson2 wrote: The FG change was going to revolutionize TvZ. I guess it's back to trying to win TvZ in the first five minutes. Oh yes because Fungel growth is the reason you can't win a tvz late game not your macro or anything -_-. Glad to see the Fungel growth change go back! | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Fungaling vikings in late game, when going Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor was pretty necessary. Besides that, fungaling medivacs before they unload their cargo (or to prevent them from getting away) in your drone line was pretty darn useful, and seen a lot. The problem with going infestors instead of mutas against Terran is that in order for you to have them in place to prevent drops you need to have them sitting in your base, and they won't be able to participate in any battles. Their mobility is nowhere near that of the Mutalisk, which can easily defend from drops and quickly return to assist in a battle, and force the Terran to either put up missile turrets, or stay in his base, which is the primary reason why I think infestors haven't been used too much by zergs in the GSL. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
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CoMMoDuS
Germany507 Posts
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Fungaling vikings in late game, when going Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor was pretty necessary. Besides that, fungaling medivacs before they unload their cargo (or to prevent them from getting away) in your drone line was pretty darn useful, and seen a lot. What the hell are ghosts for? There is always a counter balance unit. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:03 Patientia wrote: "The Last Patch" From the left, Yellow (SC1 Zerg Pro), Jungwon (Gom TV Caster), Terran Operator (Notice the kneeling position), Fruit Dealer (TSL), Choya (FOU), Hongun (Prime-WE), David Kim with his 1.2 Patch, MC (OGS-Liquid), Rain (TSL), Jinro (OGS-Liquid), Killer (TSL), Daeman (Gom TV Caster), anonymous Protoss Zealot? On the table, there are an apple (for Fruit Dealer), a sting ray (called Hong-uh in Korea, Hongun's nickname), Cheese (for Rain), So-ju the Korean traditional alcoholic beverage (for Jinro) Nice Work. from PlayXP (made by Totoshu) Excellent, thanks for posting. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:07 LagT_T wrote: Abandoning a balance change not even after a week of data mining a small sample of users is retarded. Maybe they realise the change was retarded | ||
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limonovich
England226 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
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lurked
Canada918 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! hmm... Idk, maybe they learned with the experience? ^^ But yeah, I'm pretty glad they're changing back the fungal growth to what it is right now, even though I don't play zerg... | ||
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tieya
United States308 Posts
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savvy
Australia9 Posts
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KiF1rE
United States964 Posts
the fungal growth changes were kinda really awkward, it felt really great to be able to build phoenixes but now i wont bother with phoenixes much now. as people i know that play zerg just burrow an infestor and try to get my phoenixes close to it and just take them all down. was the lamest stuff ever. ill just go back to mass blink stalker to stop muta =/ | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:32 KiF1rE wrote: never understood the whole outcry over zerg users not being able to hold keys down, its not like protoss or terran could do that and get away with it, we actually have to hit a key everytime we want to macro something properly =/ the fungal growth changes were kinda really awkward, it felt really great to be able to build phoenixes but now i wont bother with phoenixes much now. as people i know that play zerg just burrow an infestor and try to get my phoenixes close to it and just take them all down. was the lamest stuff ever. ill just go back to mass blink stalker to stop muta =/ You could hold shift for mass warp-ins as toss. And terran has the easiest macro regardless. Both of these things still hold true after the change. I think the change was reverted because zerg spams enough as is. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:32 KiF1rE wrote: the fungal growth changes were kinda really awkward, it felt really great to be able to build phoenixes but now i wont bother with phoenixes much now. as people i know that play zerg just burrow an infestor and try to get my phoenixes close to it and just take them all down. You also have a lower observer cost and, all things considered, you should be used to making a handful of observers each game in the first place. Lawd knows why you would ONLY have phoenixes and no ground support. On December 08 2010 04:09 Hyperionnn wrote: when zerg qqs they get what they want when any other races qqs, they get nothing On December 08 2010 03:14 1Eris1 wrote: I like how no one ever called FG OP, until blizz thought it needed a nerf. and now that it's not being nerfed it's suddenly OP. Awww shit, you mean they aren't nerfing zerg and they're leaving it... the same!? Clearly, it's because of the QQing and not the fact that FG is relatively underused, and that putting this in the patch notes would draw attention to a useful spell. On December 08 2010 02:41 Moody wrote: Just want to point out that ~95% of people saying "w00 go blizzard! Game so balanced now!" have a Zerg icon next to their name Just want to point out a decent amount of people QQing about Zerg staying the same have a Terran icon next to their name... | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:32 KiF1rE wrote: never understood the whole outcry over zerg users not being able to hold keys down, its not like protoss or terran could do that and get away with it, we actually have to hit a key everytime we want to macro something properly =/ the fungal growth changes were kinda really awkward, it felt really great to be able to build phoenixes but now i wont bother with phoenixes much now. as people i know that play zerg just burrow an infestor and try to get my phoenixes close to it and just take them all down. was the lamest stuff ever. ill just go back to mass blink stalker to stop muta =/ Why don't you try morphing 30 banelings in the heat of a battle, and see how absurdly long it takes. Even in Broodwar (the most mechanically challenging game ever made) you could morph up to 12 lurkers or 12 guardians with 1 key press. I've played about 40 games on the PTR, and I can attest that it drastically increases the amount of time you spend making units, and Zerg is already the most APM intensive race by far. It mostly affects heavy zergling builds, or late game trying to re-build your army after getting roflstomped since zerg 200/200 is utterly pathetic. | ||
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:44 Kitani wrote: Just want to point out a decent amount of people QQing about Zerg staying the same have a Terran icon next to their name... pssst, it's the default icon. and I'm lazy to change it. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
I just cant stand that so many people are QQing after they see a achange beeing reverted that was never in the game. Most of the people out there think these changes have been a really bad idea. cutting buildtime on bunkers is kinda odd, after blizzard changed it to make bunker pushes harder (which are live still strong). FG hitting only ground was so confusing, no one did really get why Blizzard did that, since no one was really qqing about it. The thing with holding down a key to chainbuild one unit... acutally I just know since 1-2 month about it, I wouldnt feel that hard nerfed as Zerg | ||
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Arakash
Germany124 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:27 NearPerfection wrote: Sigh, I was enjoying Phoenix actually countering Muta for once, now with FG nerf removed, mass muta will once again kill every single Phoenix that comes close to an infestor. When people get better at the game and this becomes more common hopefully this will be looked at once again. so whats the deal? muta come near HT -> Storm + phoenixes to finish them off. Seems fair to me :/ | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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Avalain
Canada308 Posts
On December 08 2010 08:03 darmousseh wrote: Something else about protoss needs to be changed. Phoenix themselves are great at harassing, but they are even riskier than mutas, since phoenix are absolutely terrible in a battle (unless your opponent is bad). Phoenix are also gas heavy meaning less sentries and less tech units like collosus or high templar making protoss armies even weaker. Each phoenix is the same cost as 1 zealot and 1 sentry. Another possibility is removing the energy on phoenix and making graviton beam a cooldown ability if it means they can use it more often. I can't tell you how many times i've been harassing with phoenix like crazy and my opponent pushes and all my phoenix have 0 energy. Hm, I'm fairly sure that making graviton beam a cooldown would be a very bad idea. It's better for the phoenix to be able to store up energy and use the beam 2-3 times in a row rather than once every cooldown. I mean, consider how the phoenix is used. You swoop into a base, do as much damage as you can, and get out. | ||
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schimmetje
Netherlands1104 Posts
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KiF1rE
United States964 Posts
On December 08 2010 08:00 Arakash wrote: so whats the deal? muta come near HT -> Storm + phoenixes to finish them off. Seems fair to me :/ storm can be dodged, and then run away. FG comes out of no where and stops your whole entire air army, i usually keep my ground force defending my base while my phoenixes harass, making FG very dangerous as once the phoenix gets hit they are dead. | ||
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KezseN
Singapore1450 Posts
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Tocnael
United States7 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:14 Selith wrote: What? Blizzard actually changing back stuff due to feedback? How come this never happened with WoW PTR unless if it was game-breaking?! Having to spam the hotkey and making fungal not affect air was game breaking | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
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Lil.Sassy
United States54 Posts
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:27 NearPerfection wrote: Sigh, I was enjoying Phoenix actually countering Muta for once, now with FG nerf removed, mass muta will once again kill every single Phoenix that comes close to an infestor. When people get better at the game and this becomes more common hopefully this will be looked at once again. It's not such a big deal. Phoenixes come out A LOT faster. Abuse from mutas will be much less common, which is the biggest problem with mutas. There will just be a point in the game where once infestors are out phoenixes can no longer abuse, and there will be a stalemate when it comes to abuse, instead of one being favored over the other. Anyway, the fungal nerf wasn't just going to affect ZvP. It would've changed ZvT and drastically changed ZvZ as well, making both mu's very one dimensional. As a spectator I'm grateful that they didnt implement the change. | ||
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yoplate
United States332 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:15 JotunShagrath wrote: Haha, all the people who panicked about fungal growth panicked for nothing. Not their fault, it's just funny to me that Blizz would scare the crap out of zergs only to decide not to nerf it. That would make a great april fools joke. Release the patch notes on PTR which buff marauders, mules and banshees, and keep the changes in until April 1. On a related note, I think those were the changes that generated the major shitstorm (I personally think that the patch changes were good except for those 3 things). I am pretty glad that Blizzard listens to us, and hope it continues in the future. | ||
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.MadHaT
Canada76 Posts
Obviously Zerg are gonna be rejoicing from the Fungal return. Hopefully the dedication to balance continues. Wonder if any more goodies will be included in 1.2 that haven't been announced for testing yet... | ||
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hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
On December 08 2010 09:24 KiF1rE wrote: storm can be dodged, and then run away. FG comes out of no where and stops your whole entire air army, i usually keep my ground force defending my base while my phoenixes harass, making FG very dangerous as once the phoenix gets hit they are dead. As they are both instant cast, Storm and FG both "come out of nowhere." The area on FG is so small that if you don't clump up your air units, it should never ever EVER be a problem to deal with. Zerg players had to magic box to adapt to thors, learn to do the same to not lose unacceptable amounts of your army to something otherwise easily avoided. | ||
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xevis
United States218 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Looks like all that stuck was a VR nerf..now its a patch ...and a substantial Phoenix build time buff, a substantial VR vs. Massive buff, a decent buff to Observer cost and Hallucination research time, a major nerf to Terran repair and a minor nerf to Ultra splash. On the whole, Toss definitely got better this patch. Just, you know, "noticably but not overwhelmingly" better, instead of "utterly matchup breaking" better like they were with the Infestor nerf. | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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delayed reflex
Canada358 Posts
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Tofa
United Kingdom26 Posts
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MindTrick
7 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 08 2010 21:05 MindTrick wrote: so when is this shit out ? Seriously, what are you smoking? Not only you made thread that included 1 word and was locked in 5 minutes but you already know the answer. Then you ask again here.. Not to mention you ask same question as the guy above, wake up.. edit: Its out, when its out - no one knows. Stop asking for something that has obvious answer. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On December 08 2010 21:13 Everlong wrote: Seriously, what are you smoking? Not only you made thread that included 1 word and was locked in 5 minutes but you already know the answer. Then you ask again here.. Not to mention you ask same question as the guy above, wake up.. edit: Its out, when its out - no one knows. Stop asking for something that has obvious answer. Wasn't that guy banned ? I'm almost sure I saw his name in the banned thread. Edit: Nvm this is a new account but probably the same person. Registered on 8th of december 2010 so probably is. He'll be banned soon if he makes comments for the reason he was banned for. | ||
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MindTrick
7 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
now I can cancel my wow account again. Not that I was playing.. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 08 2010 21:24 Cyber_Cheese wrote: so are there any other known changes? Love the awkward post trying to divert the subject from the troll. But no, and I'm sure if there was OP will be updated. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 08 2010 21:24 Cyber_Cheese wrote: so are there any other known changes? So far only the ones that have been spoiled.. Im pretty sure, there will be several unlisted changes. Also several "bug fixes" will affect balance, so expect some changes in gameplay. But overall it seems rather light patch.. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
what about the storm/stim/banshee rework they were talking about weeks ago? | ||
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nehl
Germany270 Posts
or is it just the new ladder witghout any different ladder changes? i didnot read something like this, but maybe i oversaw something? | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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ZergOwaR
Norway280 Posts
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
why does everyone else have to press buttons for every unit but not zerg User was warned for this post | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 08 2010 22:34 decaf wrote: what about the phoenix build time decrease? I think 10 secs is overkill. I think phoenixes are designed to be massable to some degree. Otherwise, other races can just straight-up out produce you in AA. I think if we ever want to see toss air get used, there needs to be some capacity to defend it. | ||
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JamesJohansen
United States213 Posts
I think it needs to be realized that infestors and FG are simply to vital to get nerfs and are by no means to strong simply because they fill a nescesary nitch that no other unit really occupies on the zerg. Mutalisks/Roaches/banelings are a different story and i can understand bitching towards them but infestors are hard to make useful and are desperatly needed form some situations. In summation, direct your rage to the zerg elseware, dont demand nerfs from vital units like infestors | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal.... best changes are hallu and observer I will once again build more than 1 observer! And maybe hallucinations will see more use in early game offense and defense. | ||
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Blacksoul87
United States12 Posts
Imma protoss player here, and somehow I'm happy about FG being able to hit air again...for some reason... I feel the same way probably cause I don't want free wins and game changing skills like that make the game more dynamic and interesting otherwise it would just be a straight up numbers game | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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Fwiffo
Canada57 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:25 YoiChiBow wrote: ... colossi still move if fungaled since they are massive type No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed. | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote: And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal.... Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote: roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg. Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:07 Fwiffo wrote: No, FG affects massive units too. Can't remember the match, but I recall seeing Carriers actually used in a ZvP on Lost Temple. Carriers got FGed and then FCKed. No... fungul ultras and watch them keep running. | ||
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brownymaster
5 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:38 rackdude wrote: No... fungul ultras and watch them keep running. Ultras have frenzy (makes them immune to stun snares mind control etc). Don't apply that to every other unit that can get neuraled, stunned, snared, etc including other massive units. | ||
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Creation85
51 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. For better accuracy, you probably shouldn't forget that roaches cost less than a marauder, much less than a stalker, and since you said that marauders get stim and stalkers blink, I guess we give roaches burrow and burrow move too? And I think roaches build time is shorter than either. I agree that roaches shouldn't be changed, but don't say roaches got "the short end of the stick" based on some worthless calculations. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. All you guys need to stop using the term "DPS" (which is a stupid carryover from WoW anyway), stop theorycrafting, and actually play the game. Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers. Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided. | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:55 Creation85 wrote: For better accuracy, you probably shouldn't forget that roaches cost less than a marauder, much less than a stalker, and since you said that marauders get stim and stalkers blink, I guess we give roaches burrow and burrow move too? And I think roaches build time is shorter than either. I agree that roaches shouldn't be changed, but don't say roaches got "the short end of the stick" based on some worthless calculations. I was only calculating damage, range and health and added upgrades as possibilities. Roach 75/25, 27 second build time, spawned from larva which are also used to create drones and overlords, thus possibly lowering the amount of roaches spawned. Moving unburrowed, their speed is 2.25, 3 with glial reconstitution. Burrowed they move at 1.40, and 2.15 with glial reconstitution. Assuming they are on creep, the speed is 1.3x 145 HP with .273 HP/S regen, 5 when burrowed, 10 when burrowed with tunneling claws. Biological armored with 1 armor. They do 8 DPS to ground targets at a maximum range of 4. Marauder 100/25, 30 second build time, trained at a barracks. Constant 2.25 speed, 3.375 speed for 12 seconds when stimmed. 125 HP, biological armored with 1 armor. They do 6.66 DPS to non-armored ground targets, 13.33 DPS when stimmed. They also have +10 vs armored which translates to 13.33 DPS to armored ground targets, 26.66 DPS when stimmed, at a maximum range of 6. On top of this, they can also have concussive shells which slows a single non-massive target by 50%. Including upgrades, marauders can kite roaches just due to concussive shells. Stalker 125/50, 42 second build time, 5 second warp in time, trained at the gateway/warped in via warp gate. Constant 2.95 speed, however the blink ability can be used to teleport stalkers out of combat (10 second cooldown), and allows the stalkers to go up or down cliffs, however blink is limited by line of sight. Furthermore, if you remove upgrades from the equation, stalkers can kite roaches easily due to the speed difference. 80 shields, 80 HP. Shield regens 2 per second. Mechanical armored with 1 armor. They do 6.94 DPS against non armored ground or aerial targets, and 9.72 DPS against armored ground or aerial targets, at a maximum range of 6. So upgraded or not and not microed, when put at a distance of 10 from each other, the stalker or marauder would kill the roach every time. If you disregard "worthless calculations" and only think about how players utilizing the abilities of each, then roaches can be used on par with stalkers or marauders. However if you choose to think like that, then you'd have to factor in the possibility of ravens, observers, scanner sweeps, etc. since you know, players use those too. | ||
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RaNgeD
United States733 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though. | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote: Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though. True, something I addressed in the post after. Stalkers can hit air whereas marauders and roaches cannot. On top of that, roaches cost larva as well as resources. I'm not really sure where that puts marauders but they seem to take most of the hits for MMM bioballs. | ||
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DocM
United States212 Posts
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:40 Kitani wrote: True, something I addressed in the post after. Stalkers can hit air whereas marauders and roaches cannot. On top of that, roaches cost larva as well as resources. I'm not really sure where that puts marauders but they seem to take most of the hits for MMM bioballs. A stalker costs nearly twice a roach. The stalker better damn well beat the pants off a roach at any given time and day | ||
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Kitani
United States44 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:54 Dakkas wrote: A stalker costs nearly twice a roach. The stalker better damn well beat the pants off a roach at any given time and day In terms of versatility, stalkers are much more useful, yeah, and in a 1v1 it'll take down the roach, but when you get higher numbers of roaches and stalkers On December 09 2010 15:17 Piledriver wrote: Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers. Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided. | ||
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Juffalo
United States155 Posts
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johanngrunt
Hong Kong1555 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 09 2010 16:07 johanngrunt wrote: roaches are about half the cost of a stalker though, and 2 roaches > 1 stalker. This is just stupid, Blizzard balances the races, not the units. If you want balanced units then you will have imbalanced races, period. It doesn't matter how the units compare on paper if they turn out to be too powerful when coupled with that races other units and abilities. You cannot compare units in isolation. I get so sick of unit to unit comparisons, as they mean absolutely nothing. | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote: Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though. GOTTA TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT THIS IS SC2 NOT MASS 1 UNIT PER RACE GOGO A-MOVE. Comparing unit stats to discuss balance is pretty retarded unless you're doing it alongside more impressive balance discussion (pointing to statistically significant lopsided win ratios in top level play, for example) But either way I don't agree with changing roach range back to 3. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote: Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 Uh, no. Just no. Roach 16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder 10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker 10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. You're comparing 3 completely different units. Zergs make Zerglings versus Marauders and Stalkers anyway so why bother comparing Roaches to Marauders and Stalkers? What are you comparing next? Brood Lords against Carriers? | ||
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tetramaster
Canada253 Posts
On December 10 2010 15:45 PJA wrote: GOTTA TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT THIS IS SC2 NOT MASS 1 UNIT PER RACE GOGO A-MOVE. Comparing unit stats to discuss balance is pretty retarded unless you're doing it alongside more impressive balance discussion (pointing to statistically significant lopsided win ratios in top level play, for example) But either way I don't agree with changing roach range back to 3. I agree; I don't mind roach range staying at 4, but I'd really like stalker damage scaling to not suck as much. I really don't see doing +1 additional damage to armored per an upgrade breaking anything in particular. Except maybe against ultralisks, but blink stalkers vs ultralisks is a losing battle for the ultras anyways...without ling support. | ||
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
On December 09 2010 15:17 Piledriver wrote: Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers. This piece of theorycrafing is untrue.. a slow fire rate suffers when focus firing. Roaches have such a slow attack that when focus firing, many/most (depending on group size) will waste their shot on overkill. Due to the long attack cooldown, this means a great dps loss. Units with a fast attack rate suffer a lot less from this (like zerglings or hydras) Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided. True, once you factor in the cost, roaches do quite well. Especially with +1 ranged attack, which still results in +1 damage when the target has +1 armor. | ||
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
On a happy note, really happy Blizzard tested this, see how it went and are not afraid to admit the idea wasnt good after all for the game. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
2) Holding down the key or not, it makes the game easier. | ||
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Askesis
216 Posts
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Liquid_Adun
Canada205 Posts
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:35 Liquid_Adun wrote: This is easily the worst news i have ever heard, FG is back seriously? Oh well lets see how it plays out, and hope they made the right decisions. Your <insert close family relative here> died today, problem fixed. | ||
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