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On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote:On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....
Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.
Uh, no. Just no. Roach16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though.
GOTTA TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT THIS IS SC2 NOT MASS 1 UNIT PER RACE GOGO A-MOVE.
Comparing unit stats to discuss balance is pretty retarded unless you're doing it alongside more impressive balance discussion (pointing to statistically significant lopsided win ratios in top level play, for example)
But either way I don't agree with changing roach range back to 3.
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On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....
Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.
Uh, no. Just no. Roach16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range.
You're comparing 3 completely different units. Zergs make Zerglings versus Marauders and Stalkers anyway so why bother comparing Roaches to Marauders and Stalkers?
What are you comparing next? Brood Lords against Carriers?
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On December 10 2010 15:45 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 15:35 RaNgeD wrote:On December 09 2010 14:36 Kitani wrote:On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
And I think that Marines could actually use a nerf so that terran has to use more units in his arsenal....
Yeah some guy made this whole thread on how the marine is one of the most vital units in the terran army and without them terran is nothing? That's the gist of the threat IMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912On December 09 2010 05:56 Freeborn wrote:
roaches should get their old range back though or do less dmg.
Uh, no. Just no. Roach16 damage every 2 seconds (8 DPS), 4 range 145 HP, armored biological Marauder10 damage every 1.5 seconds (6.66 DPS), +10 vs armored (13.33 DPS), 6 range 125 HP, armored biological Stalker10 damage every 1.44 seconds (6.94 DPS), +4 vs armored (9.72 DPS), 6 range 80 shields, 80 HP, armored mechanical As it stands, marauders and stalkers can get a free shot off on a roach without taking damage, so essentially, marauders and roaches would start off with the same HP, and against stalkers, roaches are down by 29 HP. Furthermore, marauders and stalkers have a higher DPS, not to mention the fact that marauders can stim to move away and get more free shots and fire faster and stalkers have blink. Roaches really have the short end of the stick here, before upgrades are considered. They are beat in DPS and range. Gotta take in cost efficiency as well though. GOTTA TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT THIS IS SC2 NOT MASS 1 UNIT PER RACE GOGO A-MOVE. Comparing unit stats to discuss balance is pretty retarded unless you're doing it alongside more impressive balance discussion (pointing to statistically significant lopsided win ratios in top level play, for example) But either way I don't agree with changing roach range back to 3.
I agree; I don't mind roach range staying at 4, but I'd really like stalker damage scaling to not suck as much. I really don't see doing +1 additional damage to armored per an upgrade breaking anything in particular. Except maybe against ultralisks, but blink stalkers vs ultralisks is a losing battle for the ultras anyways...without ling support.
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On December 09 2010 15:17 Piledriver wrote:
Roaches have a higher damage per volley, so their focus fire is much more effective at killing stalkers.
This piece of theorycrafing is untrue.. a slow fire rate suffers when focus firing. Roaches have such a slow attack that when focus firing, many/most (depending on group size) will waste their shot on overkill. Due to the long attack cooldown, this means a great dps loss. Units with a fast attack rate suffer a lot less from this (like zerglings or hydras)
Seriously, have you tried playing roach vs stalker at even cost? Without blink, stalkers just die a horrible death. Once you factor in some ling support, it becomes even more lop sided.
True, once you factor in the cost, roaches do quite well. Especially with +1 ranged attack, which still results in +1 damage when the target has +1 armor.
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Damn its really annoying listening to wow theory crafters hijacking this thread about dps, hp and all that non sense, about as annoying as this useless post stating the obvious..
On a happy note, really happy Blizzard tested this, see how it went and are not afraid to admit the idea wasnt good after all for the game.
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1) Thank God that they changed this back. Infestors are already hard to use, if they wouldn't target air it would have been a useless unit.
2) Holding down the key or not, it makes the game easier.
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All great changes. I'm a Toss player, but I fully support these non-changes.
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This is easily the worst news i have ever heard, FG is back seriously? Oh well lets see how it plays out, and hope they made the right decisions.
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On December 17 2010 05:35 Liquid_Adun wrote:
This is easily the worst news i have ever heard, FG is back seriously? Oh well lets see how it plays out, and hope they made the right decisions.
Your <insert close family relative here> died today, problem fixed.
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EPT
