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On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings.
Mass marine starts becoming awful lategame. Assuming the economies are relatively unhindered on each side (meaning Zerg might have been harassed somewhat, lost ~10 drones over the game from it, but overall nothing huge since it's reached the late game phase), just MASS baneling and infestor will dominate any mass marine strat that they try to do from like 4-5 reactored barracks, even if you have siege tanks. It goes tot hep oint where splitting isn't even feasible in the LARGE numbers.
So yeah, if T really wants to go pure mass marine siege tank it's fine, don't build ultras and roll him with something else, which is probably what you're doing. But as soon as he starts deviating because he lost all his siege tanks in one assault and can't possibly replenish them, he's lost. So it's not even a viable late late game strat. Once T starts adapting and building something else, it's undeniable that Ultras are god awesome vs - small-midsized mech armies and marauders that are fungaled (even if stimmed), as well as destroying Pforts, all of which are crucial lategame units.
If you don't understand the BL -> ultra switch it's mindboggling to me. It's infinitely stronger than switching to hydralingbaneling. Anyways, it's not like marines are god amazing vs ultras either when they're only dealing 3 dmg to them in the first place.
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That's exactly wut ultra's need... another nerf, as it is u never see them in higher level play being effective.
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Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol.
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On December 07 2010 19:20 FlamingTurd wrote:
That's exactly wut ultra's need... another nerf, as it is u never see them in higher level play being effective.
Did you actually read a single post above yours? You make yourself look like an idiot..
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On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol.
Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right?
Such a stupid statement.
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On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement.
Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily.
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umm the size change wasn't really undocumented atleast i read that ultralisk don't get crazy anymore if there are sensor tower walls. (ultralisk really had problems with buildings if you let a little gap between em.)
Um anyway while it may not affect a single ultralisk that is in a bunch of units. Poking the aoe damage to the front will make ultralisks stronger if they attack a front. Its only a slight movement of the aoe, but i think it was made to hit something better. Either thors mobs or stalker mobs.
So dropping or unborrowing right in the middle of the enemy is as defestating as it was before or a little worse, but having a nice ultralisk front is better.
Edit: oh maybe it was intendet for zvz as they want to get away from mass roaches there.
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On December 07 2010 19:43 FeyFey wrote:
Um anyway while it may not affect a single ultralisk that is in a bunch of units. Poking the aoe damage to the front will make ultralisks stronger if they attack a front. Its only a slight movement of the aoe, but i think it was made to hit something better. Either thors mobs or stalker mobs.
So dropping or unborrowing right in the middle of the enemy is as defestating as it was before or a little worse, but having a nice ultralisk front is better.
Edit: oh maybe it was intendet for zvz as they want to get away from mass roaches there.
I had also interpreted the change as written to be a shift of the AOE damage forward, so that more units in front of the ultra will take splash damage. However, as some of the testing in this thread has revealed, the splash in front of the ultra hasn't been changed at all; instead the area behind the ultra's head just doesn't deal splash.
In effect, they've nerfed the ultra's splash damage once again (after nerfing it massively in 1.1.1 and reducing its damage against armored in 1.1). The only buff for the ultra so far is that when attacking PFs, it can reach over SCVs repairing, dealing splash to them, rather than running around looking for an open spot.
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On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily.
Yeah, of course you can. But what units do you have that counters the composition I just said? Late game gas becomes less and less of a problem for Zerg as opposed to Terran as it starts getting higher numbers of bases and starts accumulating extra resources when maxed. You can have your MMM with tank support, and then hey, ultras are pretty good vs that unit composition as a tank for dmg and good AOE dealer/marauder killer when they are fungaled, while the banelings come in and kill the fungaled marines, and speedlings just keep running. Of course, it's much more equal than what I'm portraying, but the point is Ultras are very good at their role, and are not endlessly kited if the Zerg isn't an idiot and builds infestors.
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C'mon Zerg players, even Ret admits Zerg is OP against Terran in late game...if they got there, that's it, but that's another problem...
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On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. ![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra.1.2.b.JPG) As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. ![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra.1.1.3.b.JPG) The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results.
So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it.
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Great, yay lame ultras. As if they weren't bad enough already.
People arguing about zerg's late game need to realize it's not the units that gives it strength. 99% of the time it's better just to continue bane/muta/ling/roach because BL's and Ultras blow. I for one, would be totally cool with a macro tone down if ultras and bl's were fixed
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On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it.
I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers?
I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes.
Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really?
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On December 08 2010 03:24 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it. I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers? I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes. Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really?
By that same logic, it's not a big deal if it's removed, right?
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Remove splash damage, make smaller, give speed upgrade.
Sounds like good changes for the Ultra to me.
Hell, let's reduce their mineral cost by 100 and supply cost by 2 (feel free to remove their armored bonus) while we're at it, get this show rolling!
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On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily.
...and then you aren't kiting them (assuming anything other than marines or hellions, neither of which would be stellar in this circumstance, or assuming they are using infestors).
Please, think before you post.
(Also, stay on creep and you'll be fine)
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From a Zerg player:
Ultras are good. If you are making ONLY ultras, you deserve to lose. Put more thought into army composition.
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On December 08 2010 05:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:24 GoldenH wrote:On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it. I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers? I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes. Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really? By that same logic, it's not a big deal if it's removed, right?
I think I've done enough rooting for Ultras to be good in this thread, that I shouldn't get troll replies like this one.
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Well, for me it looks like each time when blizzard is changing ultra, they don't know it will be a nerf or a buff. They just make some kind of a change to his splash w/o thinking how it will affect balance.
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On December 08 2010 05:42 Pewt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily. ...and then you aren't kiting them (assuming anything other than marines or hellions, neither of which would be stellar in this circumstance, or assuming they are using infestors). Please, think before you post. (Also, stay on creep and you'll be fine)
Can you give a Zerg army composition focused on ultras that would be able to beat a marauder-based composition at cost?
Also, someone said zerglings are 'insanely good at tanking damage'... they're actually one of the worst. They have the highest dps:hp ratio in the game, which means tanking is the exact opposite of what they're good at. They're about as good as tanking damage as marines are.
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EPT
