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Edit: Everything until this post on page 7 is about changes to the PTR that no longer are accurate. Ultralisks were buffed in live 1.2. Read this post for the current status of the Ultralisk.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7573716
+ Show Spoiler [outdated] +----------------------------------- [b][red]Mod edit:spoiled this as it's all outdated now/red] So I was excited as anyone else to hear that Ultralisks might get a buff in 1.2, unfortunately it was difficult to test since Blizz wasn't kind enough to include a unit tester. But eventually I found someone to try and help me figure it out (and added a new person to my friend list!) ![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra.1.2.JPG) ![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra.1.1.3.JPG) No change. Splash damage is the same (33%), Radius is the same. I did tests with Zealots, but they were harder to make out. The pylon radius is pretty clear. Not sure what Blizz bothered to make a patch note for what is just behind the scenes twiddling with the search pattern. I suppose it may actually do less damage now, to things burrowed underneath it or standing on top of it.
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It looked like in the before picture pylons behind the ultra were getting hit, how about the 1.2 version?
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They weren't getting hit, I just plowed deeper into the pylon wall in the first picture. If you think about it, you'll realize that if the pylons behind were getting hit, they would have less health than the ones directly to the side of the Ultra. Pylons behind the Ultra were not getting damaged in either case; the damage is a flat 33% and it doesn't matter where it is in the splash area.
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Pylons might be too large (ie. not enough granularity) to properly test this.
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Try with infantry because infantry bundles up closer then pylons or zealots and it's where ultra splash actually matters =.=
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While it might not be changed for hitting pylons, they're larger and spread out further than most units. If you tested it on marines or something I'm sure you'd see a slightly larger splash, but that's harder to test. You're not going to see a gigantice range increase when they move the damage point forward slightly.
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I did test with Zealots, there was still no change, but i'm not posting those pictures because it was harder to make out, the zealots were also pretty big.
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I thought the buff was to extend the range slightly? So if there was a zealot with a stalker directly behind it it would hit the stalker as well?
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United States67 Posts
I think the buff was just where the arc was centered. It used to be the middle of the ultra, but was move to a point on the front end of the ultra. So the radius is the same, but it extends slightly farther in front of the ultra and doesn't deal damage to something immediately next to it.
I could be wrong, but it seems like the change is just to better focus the damage onto your enemies if you have a bunch of ultras standing side-by-side . . .
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The real test shuold be with marines and tanks, because thats probably the most practical rason to use ultralisks in a game.
I think the pylons are too spaced out for the AoE to do its proper damage. That, or blizzard just fucked us over again 
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The center of the arc was just move up to the FRONT of the ultralisk instead of the middle of the ultralisk. I'd say in 90% of games it won't make any difference but in those 10% an extra marine or two will take some splash.
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These pictures don't help test the issue very well. For one, make sure both pics show the ultralisk at the same point in the pylon matrix (one pic the ultra has knocked down one pylon, the other one two).
Set up a matrix of marines around the ultra, then do one attack each in each test (make sure the marines are spread out equally to each side, and all around the ultralisk) I think you will see that the ultra will damage the same number of marines, but in a slightly different area.
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On December 07 2010 10:01 greycubed wrote:
Try with sensor towers.
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So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it.
The results were quite surprising.
First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra.1.2.b.JPG)
As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk.
The surprise was when I tried it in the current version.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra.1.1.3.b.JPG)
The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra.
The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made.
If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws.
PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results.
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The patch changes made it sound like it would be a nerf, I'm not sure why you even thought it was to be a potential buff in the first place.
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If the area of effect was kept the same it would have been a buff. Clearly the area of effect was reduced, not moved.
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On December 07 2010 12:05 GoldenH wrote:
If the area of effect was kept the same it would have been a buff. Clearly the area of effect was reduced, not moved.
The Ultralisk’s arc-shaped damage area is now centered at the front of the Ultralisk instead of at its center.
It does say "its" center, although I interpreted the "center" as the center of the unit. Because how it currently works is that the splash dmg dealt is dependent on the size of the unit attacking and splash is dealt in a circular radius around the ultra. Maybe they changed it when they fixed the PFort bug. Idk.
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Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game.
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Huh? Unless the patch changes haven't been exactly accurate to their words (which they haven't, seen from undocumented changes and such), shouldn't this have reverted the Ultralisk's cleave to a similar state previously? Back then at a time the cleave was also at the front like in 1.2, but then it was changed to the center. And from what I got back then, it was a nerf (generally, it depends on the situation ofc), as not as many marines in the front would get hit, and that although marines to the sides would get hit after the nerf, the Ultralisk stood over part of the cleave AoE due to the cleave being in the center of the Ultra, so that some of the AoE was "wasted" (due to the changed position of the AoE).
So I'm confused by what you guys have concluded here?
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dammit.
So zerg received a double nerf?
Great!
Now blizz needs to Nerf Hydras, Corruptors and Blords and we will be the perfect only one viable strategy and unit composition. Great for an esport that wants more game diversity.
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On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game.
Excuse me? Why in the world would you expect a buff on one of the most overpowered units in the game atm?
People hardly even contest that lategame ZvT is overwhelmingly in favor of Z. ZvP is debatable although we rarely see ZvP turn into macro games anymore.
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Can't fight air... check
Can't fight ground... check
We need a drone nerf. Econ's still too imba.
I mean really, they need to make a public test to find out something that the simplest testing could have found out? How much are they paying their employees in the SC2 department?
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United States7166 Posts
On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws.PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results.
your original post had me concerned so i went back to test it better and found yes the ultralisk splash is better on the live server than the one on the PTR server.
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Update the thread title maybe? 
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On December 07 2010 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game. Excuse me? Why in the world would you expect a buff on one of the most overpowered units in the game atm? People hardly even contest that lategame ZvT is overwhelmingly in favor of Z. ZvP is debatable although we rarely see ZvP turn into macro games anymore.
Man, if Z has an advantage over terrans late game, it sure ain't because of Ultras, these things blow.
Was it this week's State of the Game where it gets admitted that Ultras never win any games, they just get used to kill off an already beaten Terran and how 8 marauders kills off infinity Ultralisks? I think it was.
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On December 07 2010 13:13 Dragar wrote:Update the thread title maybe?
I don't know how ?
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It appears that while the wording makes it appear as a buff, in reality it is merely shifting the back line forward without changing the front arc, decreasing what it hits on the sides. This is mainly a big deal when dealing with lots of melee units.
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Z late game was never a problem, if anything, it's a bit too strong.
Stop QQing, let's work hard to stomp those cheesy terrans with better play.
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Yea, the ultralisk has nothing to do with the "lategame advantage over terran" (which I think is highly exaggerated due to terrans not utilizing higher tech units).
The ultralisk is weak IMO. It's most evident against protoss, where it does badly against literally ALL units. Before the splash changes it was good against stalkers, but now it doesn't even seem to work against those. A size increase is just depressing.
But, to be fair, its only the PTR.
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No I think the Size has decreased in 1.2, or perhaps the AI is better, I'm not sure? All I know is that in the live server, Ultras didn't go through the space taken by 2 sensor towers, but in the PTR, they do; but in both realms, they can through the space taken by 1 pylon.
It's a very slight difference so I won't know for sure until we can open up the map editor and look at the Ultra's stats directly.
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On December 07 2010 13:22 GoldenH wrote:I don't know how ?
Just think about it real hard. tl can actually sense all of its users simultaneously. Alternatively, you could try prayer.
edit 3 days later: goddamm this was my 1000th post
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On December 07 2010 13:25 johanngrunt wrote:
Z late game was never a problem, if anything, it's a bit too strong.
Stop QQing, let's work hard to stomp those cheesy terrans with better play.
But it is very little varied as well. It's zerg's macro mechanics that are powerful, not the units. Zerg units are the most cost innefective in the game, by far.
Ultras, Hydras, Corruptors and Broodlords rarely ever see light on the game. This makes ling, bling, roach muta the only viable units. And infestors as support (but they are getting nerfed again, they weren't since beta).
Zerg play is too flat already, fast expand and then ling, bling muta or roach infestor, maybe hydra roach. Now builds that used infestor as anti air don't work anymore. And I ABSOLUTELY LOVED ling infestor play. it was so good, and unnexpected.
So much for zerg varied play. Terrans are playing boring by choice, now zergs don't really have a choice.
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Agreed, variety is the one thing SC2 is missing, and why I care so much about the balance of individual units.
On December 07 2010 13:43 gogogadgetflow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 13:22 GoldenH wrote:On December 07 2010 13:13 Dragar wrote:Update the thread title maybe? I don't know how ? Just think about it real hard. tl can actually sense all of its users simultaneously. Alternatively, you could try prayer.
How about threats? >:O
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Lol since release ultras have been nerfed 3 times already, twice were undocumented.
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On December 07 2010 13:20 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game. Excuse me? Why in the world would you expect a buff on one of the most overpowered units in the game atm? People hardly even contest that lategame ZvT is overwhelmingly in favor of Z. ZvP is debatable although we rarely see ZvP turn into macro games anymore. Man, if Z has an advantage over terrans late game, it sure ain't because of Ultras, these things blow. Was it this week's State of the Game where it gets admitted that Ultras never win any games, they just get used to kill off an already beaten Terran and how 8 marauders kills off infinity Ultralisks? I think it was.
I don't even understand how you can try to argue what is generally universally accepted.
And good thing the unit combo is ultralinginfestor(possibly baneling). Meaning you fungal --> he can't retreat --> you win.
The Broodlord --> Ultra tech switch is even more ridiculous.
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On December 07 2010 14:04 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 13:20 GoldenH wrote:On December 07 2010 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game. Excuse me? Why in the world would you expect a buff on one of the most overpowered units in the game atm? People hardly even contest that lategame ZvT is overwhelmingly in favor of Z. ZvP is debatable although we rarely see ZvP turn into macro games anymore. Man, if Z has an advantage over terrans late game, it sure ain't because of Ultras, these things blow. Was it this week's State of the Game where it gets admitted that Ultras never win any games, they just get used to kill off an already beaten Terran and how 8 marauders kills off infinity Ultralisks? I think it was. I don't even understand how you can try to argue what is generally universally accepted. And good thing the unit combo is ultralinginfestor(possibly baneling). Meaning you fungal --> he can't retreat --> you win. The Broodlord --> Ultra tech switch is even more ridiculous.
Yes Bling-Ling-Infestor is good but if someone adds in Ultra's that doesn't mean that Ultra's are amazing, the other unit's do the work the Ultra just sits there and looks 6 supply pretty.
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Ultra size decreasing is actually a buff, but the splash area is disappointing.
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On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game.
The game will balance itself eventually as the metagame improves. By patching and nerfing this or buffing that, Blizz only ensures that a balanced game is further off.
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since when were Ultras good in starcraft 2????
Late game zerg is about constant pressure so that they don't get critical mass and macro and map control.
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On December 07 2010 14:15 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 14:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 13:20 GoldenH wrote:On December 07 2010 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game. Excuse me? Why in the world would you expect a buff on one of the most overpowered units in the game atm? People hardly even contest that lategame ZvT is overwhelmingly in favor of Z. ZvP is debatable although we rarely see ZvP turn into macro games anymore. Man, if Z has an advantage over terrans late game, it sure ain't because of Ultras, these things blow. Was it this week's State of the Game where it gets admitted that Ultras never win any games, they just get used to kill off an already beaten Terran and how 8 marauders kills off infinity Ultralisks? I think it was. I don't even understand how you can try to argue what is generally universally accepted. And good thing the unit combo is ultralinginfestor(possibly baneling). Meaning you fungal --> he can't retreat --> you win. The Broodlord --> Ultra tech switch is even more ridiculous. Yes Bling-Ling-Infestor is good but if someone adds in Ultra's that doesn't mean that Ultra's are amazing, the other unit's do the work the Ultra just sits there and looks 6 supply pretty.
It's 100% relevant how the units synergize. Ultras completely destroy funagled marauders that have medivac support. Not necessarily on a cost vs cost basis, but you can't do that since the lategame Zerg economy is typically superior than the lategame Terran economy in a macro game.
Zerg can just take too many bases and rebuild its army too quickly. I'm talking about a late game scenario btw, not midgame or midlate game or any sort of "ultra rush."
EDIT: I should also clarify, a major point in Ultra strength relies in its ability to be mass produced. So if you throw mass ultra at the enemy, and were not even cost efficient, in the late game stages you can just rebuild all those ultra from all the larvae and stomp over the new army that will be much weaker, and just continue to stream those units in. And you absolutely have to include the fact that ultras are made from larvae as making it a much stronger asset to the Zerg arsenal.
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Yes it is a nerf definitely, there was never any doubt in my mind once I read it ( I even posted it on some other thread).
But this image below is what I immediately pictured in my head when I heard of the news.
It is a TOP view of the ultralisks and their area of splash damage from the current state and the PTR. The blue dots are marine heads for clarification. Hope it helps somewhat..
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/gXlKl.jpg)
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Personally, I feel like it's a good change. Not sure if it overdoes it, especially however with the retardation of the fungal change. As IdrA said, that will play a massive role on the viking vs corrupter/BL fight.
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On December 07 2010 15:37 MassHysteria wrote:Yes it is a nerf definitely, there was never any doubt in my mind once I read it ( I even posted it on some other thread). But this image below is what I immediately pictured in my head when I heard of the news. It is a TOP view of the ultralisks and their area of splash damage from the current state and the PTR. The blue dots are marine heads for clarification. Hope it helps somewhat.. + Show Spoiler +
I personally pictured it with the splash area being the same as it used to, just the center of the splash area moved forward a space or two so that more units were hit.
Seriously, why the hell would they need to nerf Ultralisks?
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On December 07 2010 13:43 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 13:25 johanngrunt wrote:
Z late game was never a problem, if anything, it's a bit too strong.
Stop QQing, let's work hard to stomp those cheesy terrans with better play. But it is very little varied as well. It's zerg's macro mechanics that are powerful, not the units. Zerg units are the most cost innefective in the game, by far. Ultras, Hydras, Corruptors and Broodlords rarely ever see light on the game. This makes ling, bling, roach muta the only viable units. And infestors as support (but they are getting nerfed again, they weren't since beta). Zerg play is too flat already, fast expand and then ling, bling muta or roach infestor, maybe hydra roach. Now builds that used infestor as anti air don't work anymore. And I ABSOLUTELY LOVED ling infestor play. it was so good, and unnexpected. So much for zerg varied play. Terrans are playing boring by choice, now zergs don't really have a choice.
not only that, but ideal macro means you dont actually use the production queues and spend resources as you get them, so its not like Z magically has more resources to make any bonus production rate possible
On December 07 2010 15:57 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:37 MassHysteria wrote:Yes it is a nerf definitely, there was never any doubt in my mind once I read it ( I even posted it on some other thread). But this image below is what I immediately pictured in my head when I heard of the news. It is a TOP view of the ultralisks and their area of splash damage from the current state and the PTR. The blue dots are marine heads for clarification. Hope it helps somewhat.. + Show Spoiler + I personally pictured it with the splash area being the same as it used to, just the center of the splash area moved forward a space or two so that more units were hit. Seriously, why the hell would they need to nerf Ultralisks?
agreed, this would have been the change they needed too 
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On December 07 2010 16:49 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
not only that, but ideal macro means you dont actually use the production queues and spend resources as you get them, so its not like Z magically has more resources to make any bonus production rate possible
Zerg Units are Cheaper in General, and the production can be stacked, thus due to earlier maxed
you have more money to spend.
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On December 07 2010 14:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
The Broodlord --> Ultra tech switch is even more ridiculous.
To achieve this you need a stupidly large resource lead but I guess Zerg shouldn't be able to capitalize on having a far superior economy
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This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it.
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On December 07 2010 15:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 14:15 Hobokinz wrote:On December 07 2010 14:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 13:20 GoldenH wrote:On December 07 2010 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game. Excuse me? Why in the world would you expect a buff on one of the most overpowered units in the game atm? People hardly even contest that lategame ZvT is overwhelmingly in favor of Z. ZvP is debatable although we rarely see ZvP turn into macro games anymore. Man, if Z has an advantage over terrans late game, it sure ain't because of Ultras, these things blow. Was it this week's State of the Game where it gets admitted that Ultras never win any games, they just get used to kill off an already beaten Terran and how 8 marauders kills off infinity Ultralisks? I think it was. I don't even understand how you can try to argue what is generally universally accepted. And good thing the unit combo is ultralinginfestor(possibly baneling). Meaning you fungal --> he can't retreat --> you win. The Broodlord --> Ultra tech switch is even more ridiculous. Yes Bling-Ling-Infestor is good but if someone adds in Ultra's that doesn't mean that Ultra's are amazing, the other unit's do the work the Ultra just sits there and looks 6 supply pretty. It's 100% relevant how the units synergize. Ultras completely destroy funagled marauders that have medivac support. Not necessarily on a cost vs cost basis, but you can't do that since the lategame Zerg economy is typically superior than the lategame Terran economy in a macro game. Zerg can just take too many bases and rebuild its army too quickly. I'm talking about a late game scenario btw, not midgame or midlate game or any sort of "ultra rush." EDIT: I should also clarify, a major point in Ultra strength relies in its ability to be mass produced. So if you throw mass ultra at the enemy, and were not even cost efficient, in the late game stages you can just rebuild all those ultra from all the larvae and stomp over the new army that will be much weaker, and just continue to stream those units in. And you absolutely have to include the fact that ultras are made from larvae as making it a much stronger asset to the Zerg arsenal.
Then maybe I should clarify that nobody uses them that are good, except as stated on the state of the game podcast, to finish of someone already dead. Can you tell me when you saw them in the GSL? Well when someone is dead and needs finishing, that's when. So stop beliving yourself when you are so clearly lying to him about ultras being awesome, nobody agrees with you so maybe tone it down and realize that it actually was a stupid choice to nerf the least used unit for zerg? Maybe? No? Ok then go on being an ignorant liar.
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i think its a small buff from a logical point of view against terran, since the arc is a bit further ahead and terrans don't surround like zealots, can you try against terran units you send the ultralisk into? Like infantry ball?
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i can 100% live with a Ultra nerf now that they didn't change Fungal Growth
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On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it.
You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this?
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On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this?
Because regardless if Zerg are going well, it's not the ultralisk that is attributing to that, it is banelings and mutalisks. Ultra has been nerfed almost every patch since beta.
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Didn't use Utras before : Won't use them now
Whatever.
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On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this?
how are they doing very well? there are no zergs in the GSL anymore
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On December 07 2010 17:31 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Because regardless if Zerg are going well, it's not the ultralisk that is attributing to that, it is banelings and mutalisks. Ultra has been nerfed almost every patch since beta.
Ultralisks were uneffective against mech. So Blizzard buffed them to point it was ridiculous, because they wanted them to be the answer for mech. But since Mutalisk started to own Thors and mech died basicly over night, they need to nerf them, because they actually smash everything in their way. If you add to this the capability of Zerg macro and the option to switch between Ultra/Ling and BL/Corruptor, you have pretty sick end game combo, that is nearly unbeateable. I think this is what Blizzard tried to adress via Ultralisk nerf and Fungal growth nerf, which didnt even make it. Probably it affected too many situations in game.
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On December 07 2010 17:36 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? how are they doing very well? there are no zergs in the GSL anymore
You base your argument on fact, that basicly all Zergs were cheesed out of GSL?
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On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this?
Just ban him.
Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed.
Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them.
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I made a quick example of the ultra splash in paint. Blue is the ultra, yellow is damage area, green is where the ultra splashes underneath itself
Old:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/PG9B5.jpg)
New:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/GhdOt.jpg)
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On December 07 2010 14:25 Azn_Christian wrote:since when were Ultras good in starcraft 2???? Late game zerg is about constant pressure so that they don't get critical mass and macro and map control.
Just about every good zerg player gets them.
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On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them.
Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2..
Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it..
You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it..
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I guess the nerf ideas are coming from blizz ppl that watched gsl that day where nestea vs maka and leenock vs guineapig
shitton of nestea's ultras are stomping maka
blizzard's response: nerf ultras
fungal growth on phoenixes -> all died to mutas
blizzard's response: nerf FG+buff phoenix
bbbprime marines+scv allins got stomped by fruitdealer
result: nothing happened
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If the ultra collision size was really reduced, I welcome this change as it will I hope stop the ultras using stupid pathing. I think it could far more than compensate a very little (if I read the pics correctly) splash size nerf. Because smaller sized ultra will be able to attack a lot more often, no ?
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On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it..
Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building.
I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras.
Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings.
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On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings.
You switch from Broodlords to Ultra when you see enough Vikings and suddenly only thing Terran can do is land those Vikings and watch them die instantly because there is no way you can have right army to counter Broodlords/Corruptors and 1 minute later to counter Ultra/Ling army.
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On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it..
You keep on saying things about 10-12 minutes into the game but that's not what I am talking about. I am also not talking about rushing to ultras, I think I explained it quite good. I said MIXING in ultras can mean you lose the game.
Yes we get it, If I have him contained to 2/3 bases and I have 5/6/7 bases, then it's a good idea to start the cycle. Blords into ultra, ultra to blords. But in a game where it is kinda even, you can't pull that off. It costs a shit ton of resources, and leaves him with a very big window to attack you. ultras take ages to get out, blords even longer. Chances are, ultras are in the queue, or you still have corruptors. You really need a ridiculous resource advantage to keep switching.
Let me make it even easier for you. 3 blords make a huge difference. They force tanks to unsiege, and forces them to make vikings. 3 ultras get shot down by marines/tanks/everything before it even comes in range. I know, maybe they are designed to take the shots, but they are too expensive to do that.
On December 07 2010 18:19 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings. You switch from Broodlords to Ultra when you see enough Vikings and suddenly only thing Terran can do is land those Vikings and watch them die instantly because there is no way you can have right army to counter Broodlords/Corruptors and 1 minute later to counter Ultra/Ling army.
Now I don't know if you are trolling or not. Going from blords to ultra in 1 minute? Then the zerg already won the game by a huge resource difference. Also, 1 minute? I think the build time of ultras are way longer.
Vikings can't shoot ultras thats right. But they can shoot overlords, and they kill them pretty fast.
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This season there were 2 or 3 GSL games where the zerg did exactly this, go broodlord then switched to ultras because of the massed vikings. It worked each time.
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just give us the bw ultras back, please?
smaller, no burrow, move as fast as zerglings after upgrade.
Y_Y
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You keep on saying things about 10-12 minutes into the game but that's not what I am talking about. I am also not talking about rushing to ultras, I think I explained it quite good. I said MIXING in ultras can mean you lose the game.
I completly agree. There is no reason you should try to mix Ultras into your army composition like Protoss does with say Immortals.
Yes we get it, If I have him contained to 2/3 bases and I have 5/6/7 bases, then it's a good idea to start the cycle. Blords into ultra, ultra to blords. But in a game where it is kinda even, you can't pull that off. It costs a shit ton of resources, and leaves him with a very big window to attack you. ultras take ages to get out, blords even longer. Chances are, ultras are in the queue, or you still have corruptors. You really need a ridiculous resource advantage to keep switching.
Let me make it even easier for you. 3 blords make a huge difference. They force tanks to unsiege, and forces them to make vikings. 3 ultras get shot down by marines/tanks/everything before it even comes in range. I know, maybe they are designed to take the shots, but they are too expensive to do that.
Now I don't know if you are trolling or not. Going from blords to ultra in 1 minute? Then the zerg already won the game by a huge resource difference. Also, 1 minute? I think the build time of ultras are way longer.
Vikings can't shoot ultras thats right. But they can shoot overlords, and they kill them pretty fast.
I think I will find a representative replay/vod for you, because you put it like if you can start switching between Broods and Ultras, the game is already won, which I completly desagree..
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On December 07 2010 18:41 evanthebouncy! wrote:
just give us the bw ultras back, please?
smaller, no burrow, move as fast as zerglings after upgrade.
Y_Y
i agree with most of this, other than "as fast as zerglings", they are ridiciulous fast in SC2 xD that would be overkill
unless you mean slowlings(are they even faster than that?)
edit: but a speed upgrade would be fucking epic
edit 2: but rarther have Hydra speed upgrade damn slow slugs
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yea the BW ultralisks with speed and armor upgrade is so much btr to use n worth the time and money to spawn it.
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Do any of you morons understand what people are saying? If a zerg can go BLs to ultralisks he's already won. He could have made any unit and won. Its like saying well why don't terran go mass BCs to mass thor. If i go bc is he has to make corrupters and then those corrupters can't even attack my thors, Its an ingenious strat! If you are able to do that then you already one. The tech switch between BL and Ultra is not what wins the game.
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I think the change is fine and warranted. Besides, who runs marines into an ultra? Maybe a burrowed one but never have I seen marines surrounding an ultra and at that point there would be ravens for detection or tons of energy for scans. Maybe increase the damage just a bit?
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On December 07 2010 18:49 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 18:41 evanthebouncy! wrote:
just give us the bw ultras back, please?
smaller, no burrow, move as fast as zerglings after upgrade.
Y_Y i agree with most of this, other than "as fast as zerglings", they are ridiciulous fast in SC2 xD that would be overkill unless you mean slowlings(are they even faster than that?) edit: but a speed upgrade would be fucking epic edit 2: but rarther have Hydra speed upgrade damn slow slugs
Speed upgraded ultras are slightly slower than speedlings in BW.
Their movement speed translated to SC2 is 4.375, for comparison the hellion and phoenix have a speed of 4.25.
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On December 07 2010 18:19 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings. You switch from Broodlords to Ultra when you see enough Vikings and suddenly only thing Terran can do is land those Vikings and watch them die instantly because there is no way you can have right army to counter Broodlords/Corruptors and 1 minute later to counter Ultra/Ling army.
There also is no way for Zerg to switch from Brood/Corruptor to Ultra-ling in 1 minute. Unless you somehow let the Zerg take around 14 gas. And playing like 3 v 7 bases, the units aren't exactly the problem. They'd win just as well with a Hydra-ling-bane switch. It makes absolutely no sense to switch to Ultra, marines destroy them and Marines are the main units you make vs Broodlords as well(no one is stupid enough to go for 5 reactor starports or something).
Also just in case you didn't figure the counter to the ultra-ling switch, try building some planetary fortresses in strategic positions. Note that you need to be about even or at least close in economy with Zerg, this won't work when they have double your bases. But if it's like 5 bases vs 6 and they make brood lords, you can make some Vikings and PFs will take care of the ultralings with some marine support. eyeroll
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On December 07 2010 19:02 diegonolan wrote:
Do any of you morons understand what people are saying? If a zerg can go BLs to ultralisks he's already won. He could have made any unit and won. Its like saying well why don't terran go mass BCs to mass thor. If i go bc is he has to make corrupters and then those corrupters can't even attack my thors, Its an ingenious strat! If you are able to do that then you already one. The tech switch between BL and Ultra is not what wins the game.
Im sorry, but you are totally wrong.. Please, dont post if you have nothing to cover your silly arguments with. Even your god (Idra?) says Ultras are good for tech switches between Broods, wake up..
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On December 07 2010 19:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 18:19 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings. You switch from Broodlords to Ultra when you see enough Vikings and suddenly only thing Terran can do is land those Vikings and watch them die instantly because there is no way you can have right army to counter Broodlords/Corruptors and 1 minute later to counter Ultra/Ling army. There also is no way for Zerg to switch from Brood/Corruptor to Ultra-ling in 1 minute. Unless you somehow let the Zerg take around 14 gas. And playing like 3 v 7 bases, the units aren't exactly the problem. They'd win just as well with a Hydra-ling-bane switch. It makes absolutely no sense to switch to Ultra, marines destroy them and Marines are the main units you make vs Broodlords as well(no one is stupid enough to go for 5 reactor starports or something).
Watch some GSL games TvZ on Shakuras.. I think the ones that features NesTea, you will get it.
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On December 07 2010 19:08 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:06 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 18:19 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings. You switch from Broodlords to Ultra when you see enough Vikings and suddenly only thing Terran can do is land those Vikings and watch them die instantly because there is no way you can have right army to counter Broodlords/Corruptors and 1 minute later to counter Ultra/Ling army. There also is no way for Zerg to switch from Brood/Corruptor to Ultra-ling in 1 minute. Unless you somehow let the Zerg take around 14 gas. And playing like 3 v 7 bases, the units aren't exactly the problem. They'd win just as well with a Hydra-ling-bane switch. It makes absolutely no sense to switch to Ultra, marines destroy them and Marines are the main units you make vs Broodlords as well(no one is stupid enough to go for 5 reactor starports or something). Watch some GSL games TvZ on Shakuras.. I think the one that features NesTea, you will get it.
Point me to a game where the Terran built 5 PFs into the mid corridor and also took his 6 bases, controlled the Zerg's mid expansions with Siege tanks from his, and controlled the air with Vikings. Don't care about games where T doesn't play it properly.
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On December 07 2010 19:09 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:08 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 19:06 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 18:19 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings. You switch from Broodlords to Ultra when you see enough Vikings and suddenly only thing Terran can do is land those Vikings and watch them die instantly because there is no way you can have right army to counter Broodlords/Corruptors and 1 minute later to counter Ultra/Ling army. There also is no way for Zerg to switch from Brood/Corruptor to Ultra-ling in 1 minute. Unless you somehow let the Zerg take around 14 gas. And playing like 3 v 7 bases, the units aren't exactly the problem. They'd win just as well with a Hydra-ling-bane switch. It makes absolutely no sense to switch to Ultra, marines destroy them and Marines are the main units you make vs Broodlords as well(no one is stupid enough to go for 5 reactor starports or something). Watch some GSL games TvZ on Shakuras.. I think the one that features NesTea, you will get it. Point me to a game where the Terran built 5 PFs into the mid corridor and also took his 6 bases, controlled the Zerg's mid expansions with Siege tanks from his, and controlled the air with Vikings. Don't care about games where T doesn't play it properly.
You wont find any, because its as stupid as it looks.
I dont dare to try to explain to you, because we will get nowhere, sorry.. Going to watch GSL now.
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On December 07 2010 18:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:54 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:44 Brutus wrote:On December 07 2010 17:25 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. You dont get it maybe because you are stupid to make such as comments. You wont get a lot of things with this approach. Zergs are doing very well lately, which is common knowledge. Only thing that Zergs are struggling is this 2rax all-in, which nearly everyone QQs about and wants to be nerfed.. So what the fuck are you to talk tresh like this? Just ban him. Late game zerg is fine, yes we know that. It's just that with this nerf, it's often times better to keep on muta/ling/baneling or roach/hydra/corruptor instead of teching. Late game you can mix in some blords to force a response. If the game is even, going ultralisk or too many blords can get you killed. Think about it, vs which unit ultras do good? Thors beat them especially when the ball gets bigger, marauders eat them alive, with the cleave nerf marines do surprisingly well and they can't shoot up. if you get a prefect fungal off and get a prefect surround, then you can kill stalkers and collossi. But if not, you actually get killed. the rest of the units are very good vs them. Sometimes I wonder If you guys actually watch or play Starcraft 2.. Of course if you go straight for Ultras, you might die.. Muta/ling/bling is your bread and butter. If Terran wont "cheese" you out of the game within 10-12 minutes with some crazy all-in you just get to point where you can literally throw your army away whatever it is and start switching between Ultras and Broods and there is nothing Terran can do about it.. You either have Vikings left over and Ultras will kill you right there, or the next switch will make it.. Ultras are horrendous vs Marines and the current trend is massing a lot of Marines. If they have a decent ball of marines you need like 10+ ultras to do anything, and with Siege tank support even those can be taken care of. I would never go ultras vs Terran, it's a complete waste. The only scenario would be when I'm maxed with 5000/3000 and suicide my army, and even then the buildtime takes so long that they can just take their army and kill a couple of your expansions while the Ultras are building. I don't like the nerf, Ultras were pretty much never used anyway and Broodlords were the scary unit. There was no reason to go for Ultras. Oh right, and why would anyone tech switch from Broodlord to Ultra? If anything, you should tech switch to Hydra-ling-baneling since they won't have any tanks and will have Vikings.
Mass marine starts becoming awful lategame. Assuming the economies are relatively unhindered on each side (meaning Zerg might have been harassed somewhat, lost ~10 drones over the game from it, but overall nothing huge since it's reached the late game phase), just MASS baneling and infestor will dominate any mass marine strat that they try to do from like 4-5 reactored barracks, even if you have siege tanks. It goes tot hep oint where splitting isn't even feasible in the LARGE numbers.
So yeah, if T really wants to go pure mass marine siege tank it's fine, don't build ultras and roll him with something else, which is probably what you're doing. But as soon as he starts deviating because he lost all his siege tanks in one assault and can't possibly replenish them, he's lost. So it's not even a viable late late game strat. Once T starts adapting and building something else, it's undeniable that Ultras are god awesome vs - small-midsized mech armies and marauders that are fungaled (even if stimmed), as well as destroying Pforts, all of which are crucial lategame units.
If you don't understand the BL -> ultra switch it's mindboggling to me. It's infinitely stronger than switching to hydralingbaneling. Anyways, it's not like marines are god amazing vs ultras either when they're only dealing 3 dmg to them in the first place.
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That's exactly wut ultra's need... another nerf, as it is u never see them in higher level play being effective.
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Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol.
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On December 07 2010 19:20 FlamingTurd wrote:
That's exactly wut ultra's need... another nerf, as it is u never see them in higher level play being effective.
Did you actually read a single post above yours? You make yourself look like an idiot..
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On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol.
Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right?
Such a stupid statement.
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On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement.
Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily.
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umm the size change wasn't really undocumented atleast i read that ultralisk don't get crazy anymore if there are sensor tower walls. (ultralisk really had problems with buildings if you let a little gap between em.)
Um anyway while it may not affect a single ultralisk that is in a bunch of units. Poking the aoe damage to the front will make ultralisks stronger if they attack a front. Its only a slight movement of the aoe, but i think it was made to hit something better. Either thors mobs or stalker mobs.
So dropping or unborrowing right in the middle of the enemy is as defestating as it was before or a little worse, but having a nice ultralisk front is better.
Edit: oh maybe it was intendet for zvz as they want to get away from mass roaches there.
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On December 07 2010 19:43 FeyFey wrote:
Um anyway while it may not affect a single ultralisk that is in a bunch of units. Poking the aoe damage to the front will make ultralisks stronger if they attack a front. Its only a slight movement of the aoe, but i think it was made to hit something better. Either thors mobs or stalker mobs.
So dropping or unborrowing right in the middle of the enemy is as defestating as it was before or a little worse, but having a nice ultralisk front is better.
Edit: oh maybe it was intendet for zvz as they want to get away from mass roaches there.
I had also interpreted the change as written to be a shift of the AOE damage forward, so that more units in front of the ultra will take splash damage. However, as some of the testing in this thread has revealed, the splash in front of the ultra hasn't been changed at all; instead the area behind the ultra's head just doesn't deal splash.
In effect, they've nerfed the ultra's splash damage once again (after nerfing it massively in 1.1.1 and reducing its damage against armored in 1.1). The only buff for the ultra so far is that when attacking PFs, it can reach over SCVs repairing, dealing splash to them, rather than running around looking for an open spot.
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On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily.
Yeah, of course you can. But what units do you have that counters the composition I just said? Late game gas becomes less and less of a problem for Zerg as opposed to Terran as it starts getting higher numbers of bases and starts accumulating extra resources when maxed. You can have your MMM with tank support, and then hey, ultras are pretty good vs that unit composition as a tank for dmg and good AOE dealer/marauder killer when they are fungaled, while the banelings come in and kill the fungaled marines, and speedlings just keep running. Of course, it's much more equal than what I'm portraying, but the point is Ultras are very good at their role, and are not endlessly kited if the Zerg isn't an idiot and builds infestors.
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C'mon Zerg players, even Ret admits Zerg is OP against Terran in late game...if they got there, that's it, but that's another problem...
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On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results.
So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it.
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Great, yay lame ultras. As if they weren't bad enough already.
People arguing about zerg's late game need to realize it's not the units that gives it strength. 99% of the time it's better just to continue bane/muta/ling/roach because BL's and Ultras blow. I for one, would be totally cool with a macro tone down if ultras and bl's were fixed
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On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it.
I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers?
I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes.
Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really?
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On December 08 2010 03:24 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it. I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers? I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes. Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really?
By that same logic, it's not a big deal if it's removed, right?
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Remove splash damage, make smaller, give speed upgrade.
Sounds like good changes for the Ultra to me.
Hell, let's reduce their mineral cost by 100 and supply cost by 2 (feel free to remove their armored bonus) while we're at it, get this show rolling!
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On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily.
...and then you aren't kiting them (assuming anything other than marines or hellions, neither of which would be stellar in this circumstance, or assuming they are using infestors).
Please, think before you post.
(Also, stay on creep and you'll be fine)
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From a Zerg player:
Ultras are good. If you are making ONLY ultras, you deserve to lose. Put more thought into army composition.
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On December 08 2010 05:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:24 GoldenH wrote:On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it. I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers? I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes. Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really? By that same logic, it's not a big deal if it's removed, right?
I think I've done enough rooting for Ultras to be good in this thread, that I shouldn't get troll replies like this one.
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Well, for me it looks like each time when blizzard is changing ultra, they don't know it will be a nerf or a buff. They just make some kind of a change to his splash w/o thinking how it will affect balance.
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On December 08 2010 05:42 Pewt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily. ...and then you aren't kiting them (assuming anything other than marines or hellions, neither of which would be stellar in this circumstance, or assuming they are using infestors). Please, think before you post. (Also, stay on creep and you'll be fine)
Can you give a Zerg army composition focused on ultras that would be able to beat a marauder-based composition at cost?
Also, someone said zerglings are 'insanely good at tanking damage'... they're actually one of the worst. They have the highest dps:hp ratio in the game, which means tanking is the exact opposite of what they're good at. They're about as good as tanking damage as marines are.
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On December 08 2010 05:58 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 05:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 08 2010 03:24 GoldenH wrote:On December 08 2010 03:12 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On December 07 2010 11:58 GoldenH wrote:So taking the advice of the forumgoers I went ahead and used sensor towers instead of pylons. But in addition to pylons I burrowed Zerglings underneath the path the ultralisk would take, to see if the Ultralisk did indeed do damage to anything underneath it. The results were quite surprising. First, the image from 1.2. We did it twice so there would be no question of the results. As expected, the sensor towers in front of the Ultra and to the sides took damage, but nothing underneath the ultralisk. The surprise was when I tried it in the current version. The first thing you notice is that I had to make the path wider. The ultra simply would not fit in the gap that it fit in in 1.2. This suggests a slight undocumented change in the size of the Ultra. The second thing you notice is that the Ultralisk damage radius was far larger. Not just hitting things underneath it, but also to the side. While no increase in range was made. If anything, the change in 1.2 represents a nerf; no further marines will be hit by the ultralisk's claws. PS I won't be using marines to test anything; in fact I won't do any further tests on the issue, I consider it closed. If you wish to do further changes I suggest using a field of burrowed zerglings; it's much quicker to make and gives good results. So now ultras arent dealing damage to as many units in one strike but you can fit more ultras in the same space(since they fit in smaller spaces now, if I understood this correctly). This to me sounds more like a buff than anything. Of course it's down to number crunching and actual playtesting to see just how big this change in size is and how that affects the game. If it changes how fast ultras can get to a target I'm seriously excited about it. I'm not sure you can actually fit more ultras next to each other, I mean, how much difference is there between a pylon and 2 sensor towers? I think another post in this thread may be right, and it may have just been due to the sensor tower glitch mentioned elsewhere in the patch notes. Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, I mean, the splash damage does a whole 5 damage to light units. Was it really that badass that blizzard had to take it out? really? By that same logic, it's not a big deal if it's removed, right? I think I've done enough rooting for Ultras to be good in this thread, that I shouldn't get troll replies like this one.
Only in your ignorance do you think it's one.
On December 08 2010 06:04 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 05:42 Pewt wrote:On December 07 2010 19:28 Alpina wrote:On December 07 2010 19:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2010 19:21 Alpina wrote:
Seems like ultra wasn't nerfed enough..
They are nerfing ultra every patch but cannot fix the bug were stimmed marauders can kite ultra forever.
Making ultras is worth now only if you already have big advantage imo. Everything kills them so extremely fast and BLs are just better overall. You even can't reinforce and rebuild army with ultras cause they take forever to make, at least they would lower their build time cause now it looks like you are building battlecruiser lol. Because, you know, you go pure Ultra and don't incorporate any speedlings (which counter Marauders and are an insanely good tanking of damage) or infestors for fungaling to prevent ANY kiting in your builds right? Such a stupid statement. Well you can do units outside of marauder also, didn't you know? What about infestor, i dont have 10 infestors with me, and 3 stimmed marauders can kill ultra just easily. ...and then you aren't kiting them (assuming anything other than marines or hellions, neither of which would be stellar in this circumstance, or assuming they are using infestors). Please, think before you post. (Also, stay on creep and you'll be fine) Can you give a Zerg army composition focused on ultras that would be able to beat a marauder-based composition at cost? Also, someone said zerglings are 'insanely good at tanking damage'... they're actually one of the worst. They have the highest dps:hp ratio in the game, which means tanking is the exact opposite of what they're good at. They're about as good as tanking damage as marines are.
I said this, and it was in reference specifically to marauder heavy armies. And they are exceptional damage tanks to marauders. Not only is it 4 shots to kill a single Zergling, but at the same time there is an extremely high amount of overkill due to the low hp, making Zerglings one of the best tanks possible for marauders. It's the ultras that actually deal the damage, not the Zerglings, which instead flank, surround, and tank, when it's vs marauder heavy armies.
Also cost is not entirely relevant simply because a Zerg economy is almost always surpassing a Terran economy lategame. Also, Zerg does not have to invest in the multiple production buildings, etc. If you want mass ultralisk, you can get it from one ultra cavern. And you can outproduce 6 factories with tech labs producing Thors if both sides try to rebuild after losing their armies entirely.
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On December 07 2010 21:32 L0thar wrote:
C'mon Zerg players, even Ret admits Zerg is OP against Terran in late game...if they got there, that's it, but that's another problem...
Really? Link please because out of all of rets post I have never seen him say that, seen him say the opposite though 
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Feel free to flame me if I am misintrepeting something, but how does this test give any conclusive evidence that ultras have been nerfed if we are testing it on a 1x1 sensor tower? You are only getting a granularity of 1 grid and while the ultralisk splash range is 2.5. If the splash center was moved by 0.5 grid its possible that testing with sensor tower is not capturing the full effects of the changes
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On December 08 2010 06:16 Mystgun wrote:
Feel free to flame me if I am misintrepeting something, but how does this test give any conclusive evidence that ultras have been nerfed if we are testing it on a 1x1 sensor tower? You are only getting a granularity of 1 grid and while the ultralisk splash range is 2.5. If the splash center was moved by 0.5 grid its possible that testing with sensor tower is not capturing the full effects of the changes
Taken by itself the sensor tower experiment isn't enough, but combined with the pylon test it is.
Pylon is 2x2, and two pylons in a row were hit by the same ultra attack.
Yet Sensor Tower is 1x1, again, only two Sensor Towers in a row were hit by the same ultra attack.
Also, the Sensor Towers in the corner were hit, but the Pylons in the corners were not.
This demonstrates that the ultra damage range is exactly 2 in both versions.
If you find this experiment lacking, by all means repeat the experiment yourself, with any changes you want to make. This is SCIENCE!!!!
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/SCIENCE.PNG)
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I said this, and it was in reference specifically to marauder heavy armies. And they are exceptional damage tanks to marauders. Not only is it 4 shots to kill a single Zergling, but at the same time there is an extremely high amount of overkill due to the low hp, making Zerglings one of the best tanks possible for marauders. It's the ultras that actually deal the damage, not the Zerglings, which instead flank, surround, and tank, when it's vs marauder heavy armies.
Also cost is not entirely relevant simply because a Zerg economy is almost always surpassing a Terran economy lategame. Also, Zerg does not have to invest in the multiple production buildings, etc. If you want mass ultralisk, you can get it from one ultra cavern. And you can outproduce 6 factories with tech labs producing Thors if both sides try to rebuild after losing their armies entirely.
Actually Zerglings are exceptionally good tanks in general. Obviously everyone knows that roaches are tough so I'll compare ling hp to them. Even if you assume a 1:1 ratio of gas value to minerals you'll find that the roach is worth 100 resources for 135 hp to 25 for zergling's 35hp. For the roach that's 1.35 hp per resource and for the zergling that's 1.4. Now realize that like half of the units in the game have +armored bonuses, especially the marauders that double their damage, and then zerglings get tons of overkill HP from a lot of the larger units.
There's just a couple things that are very good against lings.
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On December 07 2010 09:58 Gescom wrote:
Pylons might be too large (ie. not enough granularity) to properly test this.
this
and the sensor towers too.
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On December 08 2010 07:29 Duban wrote:Show nested quote +I said this, and it was in reference specifically to marauder heavy armies. And they are exceptional damage tanks to marauders. Not only is it 4 shots to kill a single Zergling, but at the same time there is an extremely high amount of overkill due to the low hp, making Zerglings one of the best tanks possible for marauders. It's the ultras that actually deal the damage, not the Zerglings, which instead flank, surround, and tank, when it's vs marauder heavy armies.
Also cost is not entirely relevant simply because a Zerg economy is almost always surpassing a Terran economy lategame. Also, Zerg does not have to invest in the multiple production buildings, etc. If you want mass ultralisk, you can get it from one ultra cavern. And you can outproduce 6 factories with tech labs producing Thors if both sides try to rebuild after losing their armies entirely. Actually Zerglings are exceptionally good tanks in general. Obviously everyone knows that roaches are tough so I'll compare ling hp to them. Even if you assume a 1:1 ratio of gas value to minerals you'll find that the roach is worth 100 resources for 135 hp to 25 for zergling's 35hp. For the roach that's 1.35 hp per resource and for the zergling that's 1.4. Now realize that like half of the units in the game have +armored bonuses, especially the marauders that double their damage, and then zerglings get tons of overkill HP from a lot of the larger units. There's just a couple things that are very good against lings.
Well, there's a couple flaws in that:
1) Roach has 145 hp, not 135. It also has 1 armor.
2) Roaches are larger and less affected by splash.
Otherwise you are correct, I guess in my head I always did calculations with the zerg at 35 for 50, which is a pretty bad oversight.
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Well, Ultralisks are already not worth to get to be honest, after they hotfixed them...
I really felt comfortable with Ultraslisks before the hotfix, personally I dont think about getting them at any time, Hive tech is just a mess and the advantages are very low. Most of the time I just get Hive for the upgrades, when im already about to get those 2/2 upgrades or against toss If I have Spire already...
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On December 08 2010 07:50 ch4ppi wrote:
Well, Ultralisks are already not worth to get to be honest, after they hotfixed them...
I really felt comfortable with Ultraslisks before the hotfix, personally I dont think about getting them at any time, Hive tech is just a mess and the advantages are very low. Most of the time I just get Hive for the upgrades, when im already about to get those 2/2 upgrades or against toss If I have Spire already...
Just to correct your terminology.. a hotfix is something that doesn't affect the game code - similar to when they changed the map pool to remove DO and Kulas and added Shakuras and JB. Every patch is not a hotfix. It might be a stealth nerf (as ultralisk has had more than his share of), but not a hotfix.
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A granularity of 1 is far too big to draw any conclusions. Even a change in splash radius from 2.5 to 2.25 (a change of 0.25) represents a 19% loss of AoE area, and there is no way that a size-1 building could detect a change of 0.25.
That said, it seems likely that the ultralisk change is indeed a nerf and not a buff. That seems very peculiar as ultras sure don't seem like they deserve a nerf. They aren't exactly weak (ultras allow zerg to convert economic advantage to unit advantage MUCH more rapidly than other races) but they currently aren't effective unless your economy is far better than your opponent's.
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Yea this is an odd change. Maybe it's intent was to give Ultras a small buff but ended up being a nerf lol.
Glad to see OP tested this rather thoroughly.
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On December 08 2010 08:54 Piousflea wrote:
A granularity of 1 is far too big to draw any conclusions. Even a change in splash radius from 2.5 to 2.25 (a change of 0.25) represents a 19% loss of AoE area, and there is no way that a size-1 building could detect a change of 0.25.
The granularity is actually much less than 1.
We know that the size of the splash damage is the difference in the collision box of a pylon and a sensor tower.
This is .1 at the most.
Edit:
A graphical representation to make it clear. The yellow is the margin of error.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/possiblevariations.png)
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At this point I feel like the ultra is just a *really* expensive version of hallucination. It's there to add clutter and soak up damage while at the same time doing zero damage.
They are very nearly impossible to get a surround with and are super easy to kite in many, many situations. To make matters worse to make them 'effective' in any fashion you have to get 3 carapace upgrades plus chitinous plating. Like they said on the recent State of the Game podcast, "Ultras either win you the game or they lose you the game."
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i still miss the time when ultras could kill scvs around PFs..
and
The Ultralisk’s arc-shaped damage area is now centered at the front of the Ultralisk instead of at its center.
doesnt state a nerf if you interpret "its" as the ultralisk....
however, if you interpret "its" as the unit/building the ultralisk is attacking, then it was a slight nerf as now the splash is closer to the ultra, and not farther away like we zergs want it to be...
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On December 08 2010 06:04 fdsdfg wrote:
Can you give a Zerg army composition focused on ultras that would be able to beat a marauder-based composition at cost?
...can you give me a Corrupter-based army that would be able to beat a Marine-based composition at cost? I'm not really sure what the point you're trying to make is. You seem to be implying that the fact that there is a unit that does well against Ultras means they aren't good against any other units, which is just silly.
That aside, the best reason I've found to make Ultras is in fact to finish off an opponent when I'm at an advantage, but that's significantly more important than it sounds. There really aren't any other Zerg units (besides Brood Lords) that allow you to go and bust your way into your opponent's base, advantage or no. Being able to bust your way in without leaving wave after wave of units at your opponent's doorstep, or waiting until your opponent can put together something to try to come back and win the game, can actually be helpful.
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Yes it can.. the question is "how much of an advantage do you need to have before you're allowed to win?"
Terran is great here.. any instantaneous advantage and there's 20 food of MMM in your base killing everything. Zerg is able to keep alive with a lot of work, but they need to be 5000 resources and 2 bases ahead before they can break down your front door. Protoss is somewhere in between.
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Did somebody say that marines are good against ultralisks? This is very very false. Fully upgraded, marines do 4 damage per shot. If the marines aren't upgraded (unlikely but possible) they deal 1 damage per shot. That is pathetic. The Ultralisk is exceptional against marines and zerglings.
But who cares if they are effective against marines and zerglings. I have much better counters to those units than the ultralisk, which with the current nerf will be extremely bad against all protoss units and perform poorly against Marauders as well. And Marauders can already kite us to death with sufficient micro.
We neeeeed our splash damage....
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On December 08 2010 14:53 DoubleReed wrote:
Did somebody say that marines are good against ultralisks? This is very very false. Fully upgraded, marines do 4 damage per shot. If the marines aren't upgraded (unlikely but possible) they deal 1 damage per shot. That is pathetic. The Ultralisk is exceptional against marines and zerglings.
But who cares if they are effective against marines and zerglings. I have much better counters to those units than the ultralisk, which with the current nerf will be extremely bad against all protoss units and perform poorly against Marauders as well. And Marauders can already kite us to death with sufficient micro.
We neeeeed our splash damage....
cost for cost and upgrade for upgrade marines are good against ultralisks. To compare unupgraded marines to a fully upgraded ultralisk seems a bit silly to me.
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I don't get it, zerg wasn't proving to be OP anyway, why the nerf? I swear it's the influx of terran tears...
Infestors were fine, I don't see a reason to nerf the fungal. It was practically zerg's only AA + detection in ZvT. Just make banshees even harder to counter for zerg, yep.
Ultras were weak BEFORE this patch. Stimmed bioballs can kite ultras off creep, zealot walls negate the damage. Seriously considering changing my ZvT build, but not sure what to now. Nothing good in terms of mobile AA (hydras are unusable) and mutas are ridiculous as a 'counter' unit due to their sheer cost and low in-battle effectiveness. All mutas are good for is harassing/defending off banshees and drops. If banshees are used in an army? what then? is zerg forced to run? wow...
All I'm saying is stop nerfing Zerg. Even now when I play as Terran i can see how bs it is. Unit effectiveness is exponential and gas cost is so low. So tempting to switch permanently to T it's not funny...
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you see OP, many people (including me) would really like to see some ultras vs units testing, which is a standard testing method in any other testing thread. why not test it myself you say?? caused' first of all you are the OP, you open this thread and try to make a point so you might as well do it right lol. secondly, some of us have no access to PTR duh!!!
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Eh, I did it right, unit testing isn't 'right', they don't sit on a nice grid so it is extremly imprecise. Even if the ultralisk is attacking at slightly the wrong angle, it will distort the splash area to be very confusing, and ultras don't like to sit next to units and not attack them. You can tell from the images above that the results of this test are far more precise than any unit test could possibly be...
Anyway, I've already invested more than 4 hours into the testing of this ultra damage, actual in-game not counting this thread, some of which involved units, but I'm not going to share those results because they are so inaccurate.
My only desire is that Zelniq would post his results... no single test has any validity, no matter what variables you change, there is always observer bias & experimental errors.
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If nothing else, this change makes more sense visually.
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A couple posts i would like to respond to, but have forgotten where they are exactly. So I'll just post it as a block of text instead. First I would like to say that the zerg's ability to remax their army faster than Terran or protoss is balanced by the fact that a maxed Terran or Protoss army is stronger than a maxed Zerg army. Ling Ultra dies to marauder if you add in 2-3 blue flamed helions without infestor support. And even with it, it's quite ridiculous how much better marauders do than they should. Ultras really only counter thors (or vikings after a BL tech switch), which is really the only time ultras are successfully used against Terran. Against Protoss they have some use breaking down forcefields, but I think with the buffs to protoss air, less and less Ultras and BLs are going to be seen.
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On December 07 2010 15:19 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zerg can just take too many bases and rebuild its army too quickly. I'm talking about a late game scenario btw, not midgame or midlate game or any sort of "ultra rush."
EDIT: I should also clarify, a major point in Ultra strength relies in its ability to be mass produced. So if you throw mass ultra at the enemy, and were not even cost efficient, in the late game stages you can just rebuild all those ultra from all the larvae and stomp over the new army that will be much weaker, and just continue to stream those units in. And you absolutely have to include the fact that ultras are made from larvae as making it a much stronger asset to the Zerg arsenal.
Your argument is faulty, because you are saying Ultras are good because they can be mass produced; this is a race-specific advantage, not a unit-specific one. You can mass produce and streamline any unit, not just Ultras. If a Z goes mass Ultras and wins, it was a game the Z would've won anyways. Feels like you build it just because you can... What purpose does it serve?
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Maybe they will be a little more manoeuvrable if they are indeed a little smaller.
edit: Didn't notice the six extra pages apart from the front one, this might have been discussed >.<
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Not that anybody really uses ultras anyway. They're like the mothership of zerg, except they are useful 2% of the time instead of 1%
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On December 08 2010 06:54 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 06:16 Mystgun wrote:
Feel free to flame me if I am misintrepeting something, but how does this test give any conclusive evidence that ultras have been nerfed if we are testing it on a 1x1 sensor tower? You are only getting a granularity of 1 grid and while the ultralisk splash range is 2.5. If the splash center was moved by 0.5 grid its possible that testing with sensor tower is not capturing the full effects of the changes Taken by itself the sensor tower experiment isn't enough, but combined with the pylon test it is. Pylon is 2x2, and two pylons in a row were hit by the same ultra attack. Yet Sensor Tower is 1x1, again, only two Sensor Towers in a row were hit by the same ultra attack. Also, the Sensor Towers in the corner were hit, but the Pylons in the corners were not. This demonstrates that the ultra damage range is exactly 2 in both versions.
The data is right, but your conclusion is just not logical. If a Sensor Tower were 1x1, and a Pylon 2x2, this means that the same space that is filled by a pylon is filled by 4 sensor towers, which in turn means that there would never be a situation where in a pylon-based grid there is damage done to a pylon where in a ST-based grid there would not be damage done to at least one of the STs.
However, as can be seen on the picture in the OP, in a straight line in front of the ultralisk, two pylons are hit, but also only 2 STs, as you stated. The only logical conclusion is that a pylon is larger than two STs, or at least the hitbox of the pylon is larger than the box made from the outmost edges of a 2x2 ST building area.
This means that the Hitbox of buildings is smaller than the surface area they block from building.
The area they block from units moving seems to be even another thing, if an Ultra before 1.2.0 could fit between two pylons, but not between two STs.
So, finally, this means that a building (and probably any other unit) actually has 3 different types of size, which are usually in a similar ballpark, but not necessarily the same. They have an area they block from building, which is and exact amount of 1x1 squares. They have an area they block from the moving of ground-units, and they have an area which must be hit by AoE effects for them to take damage. But one should not carelessly assume that all three of these areas are the same area that is blocked from moving. The data above shows that they most probably are not.
It is also important to note that the splash of the ultralisks obviously does not hit a rectangle area, since, again, only the middle one of the pylons in the second line got hit. It is possibly some kind of ellipse, but that can not be exactly told from this data.
Nonetheless, the data in this thread indicates strongly that the area of effect is indead smaller after the patch than it was before, since with similar experiments, areas that were hit before are now not hit anymore, but no area that was not hit before was hit after. Theoretically, this could be because the margin of error by chance only affected the area where there would be a gain on surface, but that is not very likely, since one can safely assume that the area cowered by a tower is not that different from its hitbox.
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Would you mind testing with missile turrets? There was that additional bug regarding ultras attacking multiple sensor towers.
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On December 07 2010 19:07 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 19:02 diegonolan wrote:
Do any of you morons understand what people are saying? If a zerg can go BLs to ultralisks he's already won. He could have made any unit and won. Its like saying well why don't terran go mass BCs to mass thor. If i go bc is he has to make corrupters and then those corrupters can't even attack my thors, Its an ingenious strat! If you are able to do that then you already one. The tech switch between BL and Ultra is not what wins the game. Im sorry, but you are totally wrong.. Please, dont post if you have nothing to cover your silly arguments with. Even your god (Idra?) says Ultras are good for tech switches between Broods, wake up..
First off don't double post. Edit your posts so that they include what you have to say in 1 post. Secondly, you really need to stop flaming people. I've read your posts and every single one of them in this thread has been you flaming someone saying you're wrong cuz of this, you're stupid because of this... seriously just stop. Say what you have to say and don't tag an insult behind it.
Final thing is that you didn't read his post when you responded. He never said that ultras are not good for tech switches between brood lords. His post simply highlights the fact that if you get enough money to switch between brood lords and ultralisks you've already won the match. If you can loose 10 ultralisks (3000/2000) then immediately switch to 6 brood lords and 12 corrupters (2700/2100). Then tell me you haven't already won. Where do you get the resources to immediately spend 2700 minerals and 2100 gas right off the bat? You must have like 4+ bases by then. If you can do that tech switch, micro properly, and still loose the game then I'd say there's something really wrong with terran and that terran needs to be nerfed seriously. In any case it doesn't happen because he's right. When you reach that level of economic excess then most of the time zerg does just win the game.
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On December 10 2010 06:16 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 06:54 GoldenH wrote:On December 08 2010 06:16 Mystgun wrote:
Feel free to flame me if I am misintrepeting something, but how does this test give any conclusive evidence that ultras have been nerfed if we are testing it on a 1x1 sensor tower? You are only getting a granularity of 1 grid and while the ultralisk splash range is 2.5. If the splash center was moved by 0.5 grid its possible that testing with sensor tower is not capturing the full effects of the changes Taken by itself the sensor tower experiment isn't enough, but combined with the pylon test it is. Pylon is 2x2, and two pylons in a row were hit by the same ultra attack. Yet Sensor Tower is 1x1, again, only two Sensor Towers in a row were hit by the same ultra attack. Also, the Sensor Towers in the corner were hit, but the Pylons in the corners were not. This demonstrates that the ultra damage range is exactly 2 in both versions. The data is right, but your conclusion is just not logical. If a Sensor Tower were 1x1, and a Pylon 2x2, this means that the same space that is filled by a pylon is filled by 4 sensor towers, which in turn means that there would never be a situation where in a pylon-based grid there is damage done to a pylon where in a ST-based grid there would not be damage done to at least one of the STs. However, as can be seen on the picture in the OP, in a straight line in front of the ultralisk, two pylons are hit, but also only 2 STs, as you stated. The only logical conclusion is that a pylon is larger than two STs, or at least the hitbox of the pylon is larger than the box made from the outmost edges of a 2x2 ST building area. This means that the Hitbox of buildings is smaller than the surface area they block from building. The area they block from units moving seems to be even another thing, if an Ultra before 1.2.0 could fit between two pylons, but not between two STs. So, finally, this means that a building (and probably any other unit) actually has 3 different types of size, which are usually in a similar ballpark, but not necessarily the same. They have an area they block from building, which is and exact amount of 1x1 squares. They have an area they block from the moving of ground-units, and they have an area which must be hit by AoE effects for them to take damage. But one should not carelessly assume that all three of these areas are the same area that is blocked from moving. The data above shows that they most probably are not. It is also important to note that the splash of the ultralisks obviously does not hit a rectangle area, since, again, only the middle one of the pylons in the second line got hit. It is possibly some kind of ellipse, but that can not be exactly told from this data. Nonetheless, the data in this thread indicates strongly that the area of effect is indead smaller after the patch than it was before, since with similar experiments, areas that were hit before are now not hit anymore, but no area that was not hit before was hit after. Theoretically, this could be because the margin of error by chance only affected the area where there would be a gain on surface, but that is not very likely, since one can safely assume that the area cowered by a tower is not that different from its hitbox.
Even if true, would not the margin of error remain the same?
I think we can both agree that the ultra can get closer to a sensor tower than it can to a pylon. And that a pylon's hitbox is larger than a sensor tower's hitbox. Therefore if the ultra is getting closer to the sensor tower, it is also getting closer to the three-deep sensor tower. You'll notice I put in a bit of yellow on the other side of the boxes. Since I centered the ultras on top of each other, it does not matter if the building grids are exactly lined up, only the farthest hitboxes of the undamaged buildings matter for determining range. I am in fact measuring from the closest the ultra could get to each building to the farthest hitbox its attack could possibly effect.
BTW I tried for a while to extract the SC2Mod data from the PTR MPQs, but I couldn't get it to load, if anyone has had success let me know.
Finally as far as further tests go, if you want more tests you will have to do them yourself. I recommend that you have a friend clump together burrowed zerglings and attack the one in the middle a couple times. Then draw a shape of the hit zerglings and post it here. This should be more accurate than any test with buildings or other unit (marines for example). It is important that people other than me post results of tests. It will make any conclusions stronger.
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On December 09 2010 12:11 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:19 FabledIntegral wrote:
Zerg can just take too many bases and rebuild its army too quickly. I'm talking about a late game scenario btw, not midgame or midlate game or any sort of "ultra rush."
EDIT: I should also clarify, a major point in Ultra strength relies in its ability to be mass produced. So if you throw mass ultra at the enemy, and were not even cost efficient, in the late game stages you can just rebuild all those ultra from all the larvae and stomp over the new army that will be much weaker, and just continue to stream those units in. And you absolutely have to include the fact that ultras are made from larvae as making it a much stronger asset to the Zerg arsenal. Your argument is faulty, because you are saying Ultras are good because they can be mass produced; this is a race-specific advantage, not a unit-specific one. You can mass produce and streamline any unit, not just Ultras. If a Z goes mass Ultras and wins, it was a game the Z would've won anyways. Feels like you build it just because you can... What purpose does it serve?
It doesn't make my argument faulty whatsoever when it has relevance to balance, lmao. Maybe because mass produced units doesn't prove to be a problem until it happens with ultralisks? Jesus christ use your head.
I don't even understand what you're saying "it was a game the Z would've won anyways." Entirely untrue and blanket statement.
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Testing on small units like marines and zerglings is completely valid. pylons are 2x2 in size, marines would be 1x1. It is entirely possible that two rows of marines maybe hit in front. Id test it out but im away from my gaming computer for a week yet. Dont be to quick to mention the ban hammer.
Thanks for the hard work, Adun.
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Please post your results, I look forward to them
I have been testing other things... most recently, I came across the idea that the Vortex change so that it ignored missiles might mean that Interceptors could fly through it now, making carrier+mothership viable, but no such luck... I'll continue pondering the patch notes and post if I find anything exciting.
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carrier+mothership viable
Try making either of those 2 units viable, those are easily the 2 most exotic units in the game, just like dark archon in sc1. Carriers have only been build once in 3 seasons of GSL. I would love to see more of those 2 units, but for now i think its just wishful thinking.
Thanks for the post, Adun
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Ultras are supposed to be one of the most powerful units and they're reduced to this in SC 2. There's just too many lower tier units that crush ultras.
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^^ I think thats what blizzard wants. They said somethign similar when they nerfed the siege tanks. Same with thors, carriers, and, colossi(without support), They all just die so fast, to even lower tier units.
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If the sensor tower portion is true, isn't that a buff? It's hitting towers behind other towers?
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Looks like ultras were slightly buffed in the final 1.2 patch.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra1.2final.jpg)
First image, the same damage radius as pre-1.2 but showing more damage underneath the ultra.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra1.2final-burrowedzerglins.jpg)
Damage radius on burrowed zerglings for those who obsess over unit size.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra1.2final-burrowedzerglinsandbuildingsize.jpg)
Testing a building to see if damage is radiated from a building. answer is no. Damage seems to be radiated from attack point.
![[image loading]](http://hammerand.com/goldenh/sc2/ultra1.2final-burrowedzerglinsandunitsize.jpg)
Testing on a unit to see if units and buildings are handled differently. Answer is no.
conclusion: Ultralisk damage now does a circular damage area, instead of an arc shaped damage area. This could help against burrowed roaches or banelings but otherwise, its kind of pointless, but at least it's not a nerf. Good to know my testing resulted in a positive result.
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So if I'm reading you correctly you are saying that in live 1.2 the splash range of the ultra is about the same as before, but it now does damage below the front of itself as well?
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So.... it seems it actually makes even less sense than before
Other than that it doesn't seem like a huge change.
Thanks for testing!
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On January 13 2011 00:56 Logo wrote:
So if I'm reading you correctly you are saying that in live 1.2 the splash range of the ultra is about the same as before, but it now does damage below the front of itself as well?
It always did, I believe, except in PTR. Now the damage is circle shaped not arc shaped.
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On December 07 2010 12:25 GoldenH wrote:
Perhaps my expectation of an Ultralisk buff was due to misplaced optimism on Blizzard's ability to balance the game.
It would be cool if Ultralisks hit air. But seriously, what are you talking about? Zerg should be more overpowered than it already is in the late game?
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On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it.
I feel the same. Just what_the_FUCK. I wanna scream.
3 zergs in GSL code S ro 16. You wanna see a big fucking zero dear Blizzard ?
What the hell is going on, can someone explain to me what is the fucking idea behind nerfing fungal, ultralisk and zerg in general ? To me it makes absolutely no sense, its like 'hey, lets make them even worse'
Srsly ...
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3 zergs in GSL code S ro 16. You wanna see a big fucking zero dear Blizzard ?
I don't think it has anything to do with ultras or fungal...
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On January 13 2011 01:27 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +
3 zergs in GSL code S ro 16. You wanna see a big fucking zero dear Blizzard ?
I don't think it has anything to do with ultras or fungal...
Propably not but it, and GSL s1, does make a point that zerg certainly isn`t overpowered, many people believe thats its quite the opposite, so whats the fucking idea behind nerfing them ? Does Blizzard hate zergs or what ?
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On January 13 2011 00:47 GoldenH wrote:
Looks like ultras were slightly buffed in the final 1.2 patch.
...
conclusion: Ultralisk damage now does a circular damage area, instead of an arc shaped damage area. This could help against burrowed roaches or banelings but otherwise, its kind of pointless, but at least it's not a nerf. Good to know my testing resulted in a positive result.
You're forgetting about lowered depots. Ultras are very effective at taking down buildings.
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all they did was move the arc from the center to the front... it wasnt a huge change and isnt a nerf.. i know you think it is but lol its not. just makes it harder for marines\marauders to stim kite the ultras attack animation if you havent done this before then sorry you wont know what im talking about.. but literally before 1.2 you could force an ultralisk to attack and move the marine or maraduer out of range before the damage was dealt which basically meant that you could endlessly kite ultras assuming hp for stims is available..now in patch 1.2 the damage is dealt so kiting them is not anywhere near as effective.
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On December 07 2010 13:33 DoubleReed wrote:
Yea, the ultralisk has nothing to do with the "lategame advantage over terran" (which I think is highly exaggerated due to terrans not utilizing higher tech units).
The ultralisk is weak IMO. It's most evident against protoss, where it does badly against literally ALL units. Before the splash changes it was good against stalkers, but now it doesn't even seem to work against those. A size increase is just depressing.
But, to be fair, its only the PTR.
Wtf you talkin bout willis
Nothing in this game is scarier than half a dozen cows charging at my collossi/stalker/sentry/zeal ball along with a couple dozen speedlings. My units just evaporate.
I don't really think it was a nerf, more like a sideways change. The larger ultra is probably a nerf but the more forward pointing area of effect means ( as the op showed) it's got a slightly longer range.
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On January 13 2011 01:23 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. I feel the same. Just what_the_FUCK. I wanna scream. 3 zergs in GSL code S ro 16. You wanna see a big fucking zero dear Blizzard ? What the hell is going on, can someone explain to me what is the fucking idea behind nerfing fungal, ultralisk and zerg in general ? To me it makes absolutely no sense, its like 'hey, lets make them even worse' Srsly ...
wtf?Are you guys even reading this? There is no nerf, just a change in behaviour that might actually buff the unit a bit.
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On January 13 2011 01:23 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:16 Malminos wrote:
This irritates the shit out of me. Apparently whoever is in charge of balancing zerg over at blizzard hasn't a fucking clue.
Why more nerf? i just dont get it. I feel the same. Just what_the_FUCK. I wanna scream. 3 zergs in GSL code S ro 16. You wanna see a big fucking zero dear Blizzard ? What the hell is going on, can someone explain to me what is the fucking idea behind nerfing fungal, ultralisk and zerg in general ? To me it makes absolutely no sense, its like 'hey, lets make them even worse' Srsly ...
i resent posts like this.
you look at the numbers, without analysing the facts.
fruitdealer is the only zerg player who underperformed in the code S ro 32, and one of the two matches he failed to win go get into ro 16 was against a ZERG player. the other zergs in the tournament are just weaker than the T/P players in their respective groups and you wouldn't expect them to progress...
please look at calibre of players, not numbers. then you have to consider that many zerg/protoss should be in code S but only made code A because they were beaten by 'overpowered' terran of GSL 1 which took place in september.
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If you had burrowed ultras and an army walked over, you then un-burrow them right in the centre of the army, would they be able to do quite a large amount of damage?
(assuming they weren't obliterated right away ^^)
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I don't believe that ultras stack on top of units in any case, so its only good for attacking burrowed units. but they should not do less damage than if you tried that in 1.1.2
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Edit: NVM
Anyways, glad blizzard had the PTR to mess around with.
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,,, to say blizzard is ***** because only 3 are in top16 is ridicolous ...
i mean look there was no p in top4 season 1 and 2 and win season 3, there was z winning season 1 and 2 but much more zerg in season 3
sometimes there was more z then t in season 3 i think and now, yes there are less zergs but if i see the games i have to say there are not alot of good zergs out there AND the few they are just super unlucky this season
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you guys do understand the ultralisk change never made it live right? dunno why anythings being posted in this thread anymore
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On January 13 2011 03:06 Zimmerman wrote:
If you had burrowed ultras and an army walked over, you then un-burrow them right in the centre of the army, would they be able to do quite a large amount of damage?
(assuming they weren't obliterated right away ^^)
I'm trying to understand what you were thinking when you posted this.
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Geez this is sad to hear. I rarely get ultras anyway though, but now probably never.
By late game toss and terran armies are pretty much composed of units that rape ultras. They are sooo expensive and just dont seem cost effective.
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I enjoy threads like this because I believe the OP was responsible for Blizzard looking into this issue as a potential nerf. I say this because I noticed in the patch notes that they had "Fixed an issue with Ultralisk unable to attack a row of sensor towers."
Also I am generally happy that the ultralisk didn't receive a ninja nerf. Thanks for testing.
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That's not new, it was already a circle, which gets cut off at the middle of the ultra.
If you atacked a zergling burrowed under the ultra the splash would look like an arc, but not otherwise.
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On January 13 2011 06:32 Essentia wrote:
Geez this is sad to hear. I rarely get ultras anyway though, but now probably never.
By late game toss and terran armies are pretty much composed of units that rape ultras. They are sooo expensive and just dont seem cost effective.
Did you not read the thread or am I understanding this wrong? Didn't it just go back to pre-patch state?
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So was there actually an issue/exploit going on on the PTR with the sensor tower rows? It is such a far-fetched fix that I have trouble imagining how Blizz actually found out about this... virtually no T makes sensor towers anyway.
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EPT
