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On December 05 2010 17:32 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 16:40 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2010 16:29 positron. wrote:On December 05 2010 14:05 blade55555 wrote:On December 05 2010 13:59 wintergt wrote: I'd love to see how the fungal change will play out. I saw guinea pig (I believe?) lose a game because his phoenixes got fungal'd just once, and they all died right there. So I can understand this change. It might also give terran a chance vs zerg lategame. Right now, terran lategame vs zerg is pretty much 100% loss. Zerg can usually already see the whole map with creepspread so drops don't come out of nowhere, and fungals counter them hardcore. With this change terran might have a chance? We'll have to see.
My only concern is that protoss air might become too dominant. (and yes I'm playing protoss atm, just want to see a balanced game) think you need to watch GSL or something as terrans have been beating zerg late game. + Show Spoiler + (clide I believe game 1 vs leenok). Jinro 2-0 Moon and Jinro played super passive... + Show Spoiler + Clide won a macro game on the most imba map TvZ which is jungle basin. Jinro 2-0 Moon who played pretty horribly in both game. Please don't use these weak references to support your bias. One T horribly out macro'd Fruitdealer on Xel naga, the terran ended up losing to him. but he definitely out macro'd fruitdealer. T's can macro, you guys just refuse to develope that half of your game. for some reaons macro to terran = how many raxes pumping marines can i get instead of how many bases can i get away with. terrans with bases are scary scary. I don't buy the "Terran's don't macro argument". They've tried. It's not as effective as a more aggressive style of play
There's a build where terran uses mass OC's instead of most supply depots. In the replays supplied he maxes out (200/200) between 12-14 min when the zerg is at 120 supply. The build is also really safe since you only take your natural, which is saturated really fast with so many OC's and then you have mules on top of that. He had steady 2200 income after 9 min.
Terrans are just to scared to try different stuff
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Fungal Growth nerf seems a bit much - instead my suggestion would be to keep it's ability to target air to deal damage and reveal cloak but no longer immobilize them (or instead slow them down a little).
Toss changes are good overall. Hallucination, meh, still useless. Phoenix build time reduction will have us seeing more of them in the field - the one Toss unit that has a great reward-to-micro ratio (a la Lings, Mutas or stimmed M&M). If they remove Flux Vanes, then they should bump the base speed of the VR a little - right now it can't close in to engage any non T3 air unit. Observer cost reduction - every little bit helps.
Bunker build time reduced? Really? It has the fastest build time for any defensive structure already, plus it's salvageable - unless they remove that insane ability. I'm surprised they haven't addressed the Mule. My idea would be to have the Mule waste minerals in a 1 to 1 ratio - meaning for every mineral harvested, 1 mineral is wasted. It won't affect anything immediately, but it will mean mineral patches will mine-out faster. Want faster income? Then there should be a price for it.
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Perfect balance patch from blizz.
I was so mad watching the guinea pig game where his phoenixes got FG. + Show Spoiler +and imo cost him the game.
And I am so tired in late game seeing drops being so useless. Well thought out balance from blizz.
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On December 05 2010 17:54 Fwiffo wrote: Fungal Growth nerf seems a bit much - instead my suggestion would be to keep it's ability to target air to deal damage and reveal cloak but no longer immobilize them (or instead slow them down a little).
Toss changes are good overall. Hallucination, meh, still useless. Phoenix build time reduction will have us seeing more of them in the field - the one Toss unit that has a great reward-to-micro ratio (a la Lings, Mutas or stimmed M&M). If they remove Flux Vanes, then they should bump the base speed of the VR a little - right now it can't close in to engage any non T3 air unit. Observer cost reduction - every little bit helps.
Bunker build time reduced? Really? It has the fastest build time for any defensive structure already, plus it's salvageable - unless they remove that insane ability. I'm surprised they haven't addressed the Mule. My idea would be to have the Mule waste minerals in a 1 to 1 ratio - meaning for every mineral harvested, 1 mineral is wasted. It won't affect anything immediately, but it will mean mineral patches will mine-out faster. Want faster income? Then there should be a price for it.
While I mostly agree with you, there already is a prize for the MULEs: No scan instead. I think that even more punishment would be too much.
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On December 05 2010 17:54 Rosvall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 17:32 happyness wrote:On December 05 2010 16:40 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2010 16:29 positron. wrote:On December 05 2010 14:05 blade55555 wrote:On December 05 2010 13:59 wintergt wrote: I'd love to see how the fungal change will play out. I saw guinea pig (I believe?) lose a game because his phoenixes got fungal'd just once, and they all died right there. So I can understand this change. It might also give terran a chance vs zerg lategame. Right now, terran lategame vs zerg is pretty much 100% loss. Zerg can usually already see the whole map with creepspread so drops don't come out of nowhere, and fungals counter them hardcore. With this change terran might have a chance? We'll have to see.
My only concern is that protoss air might become too dominant. (and yes I'm playing protoss atm, just want to see a balanced game) think you need to watch GSL or something as terrans have been beating zerg late game. + Show Spoiler + (clide I believe game 1 vs leenok). Jinro 2-0 Moon and Jinro played super passive... + Show Spoiler + Clide won a macro game on the most imba map TvZ which is jungle basin. Jinro 2-0 Moon who played pretty horribly in both game. Please don't use these weak references to support your bias. One T horribly out macro'd Fruitdealer on Xel naga, the terran ended up losing to him. but he definitely out macro'd fruitdealer. T's can macro, you guys just refuse to develope that half of your game. for some reaons macro to terran = how many raxes pumping marines can i get instead of how many bases can i get away with. terrans with bases are scary scary. I don't buy the "Terran's don't macro argument". They've tried. It's not as effective as a more aggressive style of play There's a build where terran uses mass OC's instead of most supply depots. In the replays supplied he maxes out (200/200) between 12-14 min when the zerg is at 120 supply. The build is also really safe since you only take your natural, which is saturated really fast with so many OC's and then you have mules on top of that. He had steady 2200 income after 9 min. Terrans are just to scared to try different stuff 
I like the thought behind that build and think it's a cool economic cheese but it's not going to be a standard macro strat. Massing to 200/200 and attacking is never going to be a legitimate strat at high levels.
Terrans are the best at trying different stuff in this matchup.. ZvT has been muta/ling since the dawn of time while the TvZ side has gone through about 500,000 different strategies and constantly evolves.
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Here is how I feel on the issue of the Terran/Zerg late game. Contains some spoilers from the GSL:
+ Show Spoiler +First of all, I don't think players have sufficient practice in the late game for any match-up yet. I feel as though the mid-game is just now starting to stabilize in Starcraft 2 as players are starting to figure out what does and doesn't work. However, as a match goes on for a longer period of time, the number of options exponentially increases. There are shitloads of possibilities when both players have access to their entire tech tree. Trying to comment on whether or not the late game of TvZ is balanced is somewhat pointless, because it's extremely unlikely that either side has even come close to discovering the most effective strategies yet. For Clide vs. Leenock game 3, I think the Brood Lord into Ultralisks transition is extremely difficult for any player to handle. Whether or not there is imbalance there still remains to be seen. It would be helpful if someone could discover a way to defeat Brood Lords without using mass vikings. Some well placed Hunter-Seeker missiles might reduce the amount of Vikings necessary to take out a group of Brood Lords. Here is an extreme, unrealistic example. Still, it demonstrates that they can do a LOT of damage Another approach might be to address the problem that Broodlings get in the way of ground units, keeping them from having access to the Brood Lords. One possible approach might be to use Hellions to clear them out quickly with splash damage, enabling your army to move under the Brood Lords? It would take approx two shots from a hellion with the blue flame upgrade to kill a broodling. Unfortunately, hellions are also pretty worthless against Ultralisks, but if you had enough units that were effective versus Ultras that managed to survive the Broodlord onslaught, surviving because of the hellions, then maybe it would be worthwhile. Another possibility might be using Banshees. If Terran already has a lot of Vikings and achieved air dominance, a large amount of Banshees could be used to easily pick off Ultralisks. Cloak could even be used to make them extra effective, as Overseers would be easily sniped by the Vikings. In fact with the next patch removing the effect of Fungal Growth on air units, all air units will become more effective against Zerg. Anyways that's just some of my own random theorycrafting. I'm really not good enough at the game to accurately speculate how good those unit compositions would be, and it would take a lot of experimentation to figure it out anyways. As for the game between Jinro and Moon on Xel'Naga Caverns. Jinro definitely demonstrated that Terran has to be very proactive about expanding vs. Zerg. Also, Jinro's harassment was excellent. He repeatedly denied Moon's expansions. There is no doubt that his harassment saved him that game. Also, harassing your enemy before they can harass you will always be advantageous for any player, in any matchup, because they'll have to use their units to defend rather than harass you themselves.
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^^
That Raven video is from March. Isn't that from when the HSM used to do more damage? It got nerfed.
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Oh whoops. I still think HSM can be effective.
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I'm surprised we haven't seen any Eco-Terrorism by ravens. I'd love(hate with all of my fiery fiery passion) to see terran use HSM to snipe larva off of zerg before engaging their army, preventing the instant 200/200 that can happen from zerg and just rolling them. it'd be so crafty and ingenious and soooo lame. do it Terrans.. Do it...
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for the zergs qqing about phoenixs don't even worry, it's a better strat for you guys, just get corruptor and then the toss can't get colossus either...i'm never going phoenix's again lol it was dumb
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On December 05 2010 17:53 Artisan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 16:44 crms wrote: after some intense testing the new map plunder isle is indeed shit as zerg. hopefully not too much testing =D lol. 2 expansions that are on the other corners of the map or in the center. I hope this never becomes a ladder map
I have still nightmares when I think about this map from warcraft 3 vanilla....in clanwars, my human-opponents (I was orc) would ALWAYS choose this map and ALWAYS do a militia-fastexpand that I was never able to overcome; T_T
Ludicrous that blizz would revive a wc3-map that was considered to be crappy by almost everybody in sc2 - if they are too lazy to actually "make" maps and are too proud and smug to ask the community, they could at least bring back GOOD sc/wc3 maps. Twisted Meadows and Gnoll Wood for instance could easily be converted in good medium-sized maps that play similar to LT or meta:
Twisted Meadows: http://classic.battle.net/war3/images/ladder/maps/twistedmeadows.jpg
Gnoll Wood: http://classic.battle.net/war3/images/ladder/maps/gnollwood.jpg
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On December 05 2010 18:33 Silidons wrote: for the zergs qqing about phoenixs don't even worry, it's a better strat for you guys, just get corruptor and then the toss can't get colossus either...i'm never going phoenix's again lol it was dumb
Unless you have really high corruptor numbers, if you wait until you're maxed to attack you will probably steamroll zerg.
Corruptors will -always- target Phoenix first unless told to do otherwise. Phoenix tank damage for your Colossus (And deal damage to the Corruptors a bit), so your Colossus can destroy the ground army.
Your late game composition will most likely be: (blink) Stalker heavy, which deal well with Corruptors, a few Colossus (2-6 usually), a few immortals (again, 1-5), Zealots with Charge, which will probably be replaced with Dark templar as they die and you remax, and a few Phoenix and Voids most likely, with potential for High Templar.
Very strong and hard to deal with as Zerg from my experience, especially if you open Phoenix and they open Mutalisk. I win most of my PvZ's this way as Protoss @~1800 Diamond. I do 1 gate/gas, cyber/gas, 1 gate, stargate. Usually make 4 Phoenix and Expo, get in and scout and kill some Ovies, if I see a spire, build a couple more Phoenix and get a Twilight Council (for blink) and skew towards Stalkers. If I see Roach Warren/Hydralisk den, build a voidray, and get a Robotics right away pump out Zealot/Stalker. If they want to go for air dominance, I have a huge zealot heavy army to kill most of them, get a robo bay asap and a twilight asap and get charge.
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On December 05 2010 18:33 PrinceXizor wrote: I'm surprised we haven't seen any Eco-Terrorism by ravens. I'd love(hate with all of my fiery fiery passion) to see terran use HSM to snipe larva off of zerg before engaging their army, preventing the instant 200/200 that can happen from zerg and just rolling them. it'd be so crafty and ingenious and soooo lame. do it Terrans.. Do it...
Ravens compete for Gas with Tanks and Thors. They are good, but I think that most high level terran would prefer the extra tank or thor.
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On December 05 2010 18:48 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 18:33 PrinceXizor wrote: I'm surprised we haven't seen any Eco-Terrorism by ravens. I'd love(hate with all of my fiery fiery passion) to see terran use HSM to snipe larva off of zerg before engaging their army, preventing the instant 200/200 that can happen from zerg and just rolling them. it'd be so crafty and ingenious and soooo lame. do it Terrans.. Do it... Ravens compete with Gas with Tanks and Thors. They are good, but I think that most high level terran would prefer the extra tank or thor. take a third/fourth, invest in 4 ravens, use them to kill tumors, and then to reduce the incoming units after a army trade by 70. i'd say it's worth the 800 gas.
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On December 05 2010 18:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 18:48 DreamSailor wrote:On December 05 2010 18:33 PrinceXizor wrote: I'm surprised we haven't seen any Eco-Terrorism by ravens. I'd love(hate with all of my fiery fiery passion) to see terran use HSM to snipe larva off of zerg before engaging their army, preventing the instant 200/200 that can happen from zerg and just rolling them. it'd be so crafty and ingenious and soooo lame. do it Terrans.. Do it... Ravens compete with Gas with Tanks and Thors. They are good, but I think that most high level terran would prefer the extra tank or thor. take a third/fourth, invest in 4 ravens, use them to kill tumors, and then to reduce the incoming units after a army trade by 70. i'd say it's worth the 800 gas.
4 HSMs will never kill 70 pop of units unless your opponent is asleep or moves a ball of mutas onto you.
Edit: or did you mean 70 hp? 70 hp is a pretty crappy use of over 900 gas (including HSM cost).
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On December 05 2010 18:52 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 18:50 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 05 2010 18:48 DreamSailor wrote:On December 05 2010 18:33 PrinceXizor wrote: I'm surprised we haven't seen any Eco-Terrorism by ravens. I'd love(hate with all of my fiery fiery passion) to see terran use HSM to snipe larva off of zerg before engaging their army, preventing the instant 200/200 that can happen from zerg and just rolling them. it'd be so crafty and ingenious and soooo lame. do it Terrans.. Do it... Ravens compete with Gas with Tanks and Thors. They are good, but I think that most high level terran would prefer the extra tank or thor. take a third/fourth, invest in 4 ravens, use them to kill tumors, and then to reduce the incoming units after a army trade by 70. i'd say it's worth the 800 gas. 4 HSMs will never kill 70 pop of units unless your opponent is asleep or moves a ball of mutas onto you. Edit: or did you mean 70 hp? 4 HSM will kill about 70 larva before a 200/200 vs 200/200 fight, drastically reducing the number of units zerg can reproduce quickly.
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Larva spread, and the HSM splash is not that large.
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On December 05 2010 18:59 Fa1nT wrote: Larva spread, and the HSM splash is not that large. it's big enough to hit about 10 larva easily, more if you can aim well.
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Chat channels ! finally !
Thank you blizzard !
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On December 05 2010 18:01 papaz wrote:Perfect balance patch from blizz. I was so mad watching the guinea pig game where his phoenixes got FG. + Show Spoiler +and imo cost him the game. And I am so tired in late game seeing drops being so useless. Well thought out balance from blizz.
Why were you mad that an extremely expensive spellcaster used its most powerful spell to great effect? Should all powerful spells be removed?
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