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On December 14 2010 09:11 SDream wrote:
Sembei, if you do the math of the 200 people in the official top 200 (points - divisions offset) and look at everyone bonus pool, then you'll comprove that the bonus pool doesn't make any role on the math.
My theory is that they take the X% better players by MMR (not points), and just then make the Top 200 with only these players. They might actually take the top 200 players by MMR and just sort them by points + divisions.
I can't prove anything though, but one thing is for sure, bonus pool doesn't have a role in the math for top 200, but that makes sense that someone with 200 bonus points so close to your position is actually better (has a better mmr) than you.
Yes... I'm wornking on it right now and you are right. They don't use bonus pool (because of that the order is correct, but there are holes there as you said). Some of us aren't making the cut even with enough points... I'll try to find a reason.
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If you look at all the players between 180-200, they all have more than 200 bonus points reserved... so, they aren´t using them to rank the players but they must be using points+bonus to select the players and then they rank them or, as you said, they have an MMR filter .
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United States12236 Posts
Here's this week:
Blizz Name Record Rating Division
1 Kowi 868-663 3193 Horner Chi
2 NamhciR 447-246 3143 Observer Mars
3 Katari 1370-834 3116 Kelerchian X-Ray
4 dde 378-260 3096 Turaxis Yankee
5 FXOpTiKzErO 705-523 3081 Selendis Quest
6 ZpuX 202-120 3079 Medivac Juliet
7 NrGCheese 419-249 3070 Akilae Omicron
8 LiquidRet 172-57 3068 Phash Kappa
9 ReSpOnSe 927-778 3044 Observer Mars
10 Mankeyz 388-294 3040 Turaxis Yankee
11 ROOTslush 694-419 3034 Medivac Alamo
12 CrunCher 411-285 3031 Medic Mu
13 ROOTdrewbie 303-148 3020 Medic Mu
14 InflowMini 1258-1041 3324 Scout Kilo
15 nEAnS 625-457 3007 Medic Mu
16 ppgBubbles 1053-844 3006 Medic Pepper
17 EGStrifeCro 547-359 3004 Akilae Omicron
18 Baz 1556-1320 3066 Argo Echo
19 VTAttero 222-139 3002 Lenassa Dixie
20 TTOne 659-385 3001 Medic Mu
21 Gretorp 409-289 2996 Immortal Yankee
22 HasHe 1041-782 2995 Medivac Alamo
22 bLuR 625-512 3121 Infestor Pepper
24 vVvTitan 243-148 2994 Akilae Omicron
25 rsvp 639-531 3047 Argo Echo
26 Yakero 214-69 2979 Hartley Quest
27 Slurgi 614-512 2978 Talematros Eta
28 EGiNcontroL 707-524 2972 Medivac Alamo
29 ROOTDdoRo 855-667 3203 Shuttle Foxtrot
30 MoMaN 233-143 2950 Pylon Kappa
31 sPsRebuke 781-583 3008 Argo Echo
32 YoonYJ 137-78 2941 Phash Kappa
33 ROOTqxc 365-150 2938 Observer Mars
34 ROOTCatZ 1017-831 2928 Medivac Alamo
35 AlexCMoi 433-291 2927 Lenassa Dixie
36 NrGostojiy 406-300 2920 Medivac Alamo
37 Kalu 307-217 2974 Rimes Tau
38 Capoch 498-373 2908 Observer Mars
39 InflowYeN 656-531 3159 Arcturus Mars
40 AlLaboUtyOu 681-475 3092 Ehlna Bravo
40 OnEMoReTrY 387-297 2903 Uraj Omega
42 LGZelniq 1173-928 2901 Medivac Alamo
43 LovesJessica 238-127 2899 Medivac Juliet
44 lovemyRM 628-550 2897 Nagglfar Zed
45 sixjaxViBE 355-232 2893 Medic Mu
46 Mark 569-442 2891 Turaxis Yankee
47 Perplexity 704-592 2889 Immortal Yankee
47 EGAxslav 626-443 2889 Pylon Kappa
49 NrGsteve 438-355 2888 Horner Chi
50 vVvTime 1077-950 2887 Medivac Alamo
51 ROOTSheth 389-267 2885 Medivac Alamo
52 EGiNkA 451-309 2884 Medivac Alamo
53 Levin 692-514 2880 Medivac Alamo
54 InflowLinko 524-392 2879 Uraj Omega
55 sixjaxNewsh 207-132 2877 Victory Bravo
56 FireZerg 544-437 2869 Medic Mu
57 DeAtHRoW 424-269 2863 Medic Mu
57 NyDGMMA 1745-1596 3178 Raven Chi
59 LGKangwook 616-516 3109 Feld Delta
59 DuFFmAn 794-671 2857 Medivac Alamo
61 REQchbeUBC 803-666 3100 Boros Uncle
62 Antimage 419-314 2845 Medic Mu
62 ThisIsJimmy 669-541 2845 Akilae Omicron
64 REQPhiliBiRD 238-168 2842 Pylon Kappa
64 NrGCocoA 574-424 2842 Observer Mars
66 GplaysNet 170-122 2841 Shuttle Nu
67 MnMEdward 905-785 2839 Medivac Juliet
68 TheZealot 122-53 2836 Overmind Victor
69 Drew 395-317 2835 Medic Mu
70 REQDarkCell 286-216 2844 Zergling Quest * ANOMALY
71 Dream 423-324 3016 Phash Bravo new
72 CoreaProS 232-163 2825 Turaxis Yankee
73 Ocean 814-710 2823 Pylon Kappa
74 Broom 250-182 2834 Moratun Sierra * ANOMALY
74 SCAahehoo 1050-969 2822 Observer Mars
76 REM 246-169 3073 Shakuras Iota
77 NrGMalice 783-587 2820 Medic Mu
77 vVvNGry 245-159 2820 Akilae Omicron
77 NadaViKinG 355-285 2820 Tassadar Charlie
80 MasterAsia 387-259 2818 Kelerchian X-Ray
81 MsButtloaves 210-158 2814 Uraj Dixie
82 VTPokebunny 252-177 2813 Selendis Quest
83 SeleCT 557-215 2811 Medic Mu
84 StimpsonJCat 613-527 2809 Observer Mars
85 aLeJ 314-236 3059 Praetor Indigo
85 VTSpades 760-635 2996 Halcyon November
87 Mura 519-455 2805 Medic Mu
87 LiquidTyler 224-112 2805 Zekrath Sigma
89 MattDamon 778-673 2801 Observer Mars
90 vVvRigid 671-534 2800 Medivac Alamo
90 TriMaster 314-249 2800 Moratun Sierra
92 MnMVadar 794-679 2799 Observer Mars
93 CombatEX 928-826 3113 Goliath Beta
93 REQtheognis 363-269 2924 Feld Lima
95 sPstoddman 742-617 2790 Medivac Alamo
96 dKiLLeR 297-192 2789 Hartley Quest
97 Smurf 325-247 2851 Kaloth Psi
98 dayvie 518-394 3101 Scout Kilo
99 NrGHumble 289-220 2784 Turaxis Yankee
100 mkengyn 508-434 2782 Zergling Quest
101 LuckyFool 536-440 2781 Medic Mu
102 InflowLooky 993-857 2780 Medivac Alamo
103 spekkiO 167-112 2779 Overmind Victor
104 Ganon 268-201 2904 Void Ray Tango
105 RaNgeD 864-763 3029 Augustgrad Psi
106 SiN 641-530 2776 Medic Pepper
107 EGLzGaMeR 586-459 2775 Medivac Alamo
107 SKU 277-207 2901 Infestor Pepper
109 Azz 506-422 2770 Immortal Yankee
110 Roflstilsken 211-159 2768 Tychus Theta
111 InflowCoppah 635-516 2762 Medivac Alamo
111 ONEGatored 370-300 2825 Augustgrad Sigma new
113 Cloud 505-435 2824 Drone Whiskey new
113 EGMachine 240-155 2761 Kelerchian X-Ray
115 mystik 461-392 2758 Akilae Omicron
116 PainUser 345-202 2755 Pylon Kappa
117 sukonbu 103-56 2750 Victory Bravo
118 SPeCiaLiST 571-479 2748 Phash Kappa
118 Boyardee 381-204 3000 Urun Charlie
120 Kyhol 616-481 2745 Observer Mars
121 CubonePKM 408-338 2744 Medic Mu
122 BoO 628-525 2741 Uraj Omega
123 NrGViBE 92-36 2737 Artika Pepper new
124 Hawk 385-308 3049 Raven Chi
125 AoNe 844-756 2922 Phash Bravo
125 SlayerSBekHo 266-201 2733 Zergling Quest
127 jungik 268-205 2732 Moratun Sierra
127 Kookiez 345-272 3047 Scout Kilo
127 sTkChAnCe 402-341 2795 Torrasque Eta
127 sLeepisT 428-350 2732 Immortal Yankee
131 makoplux 624-561 2731 Uraj Omega
132 Skillet 217-148 2730 Observer Mars
132 Fenneth 442-376 2730 Dominion Beta
134 ReasoN 203-129 2729 Raven Zed
135 nGenJazBas 169-112 2728 Overmind Victor
135 EtsurLizzuma 738-658 2917 Shakuras Uncle
137 ROOTBubba 372-282 2726 Medivac Alamo
138 Arcanne 125-80 2722 Hartley Quest
139 ButteryLlama 718-614 2721 Medic Mu
140 RaNGirLxD 429-355 2715 Kelerchian X-Ray
141 lime 313-241 2714 Observer Mars
141 Blink 159-92 2903 Drone Echo new
143 NrGGuN 375-305 2837 Feld Lima
143 Namkung 370-303 2711 Akilae Omicron
145 VTgiX 332-259 2710 Immortal Yankee
146 Agh 649-505 2709 Medic Mu
147 Sublime 995-895 2707 Medivac Alamo
148 Magulina 144-84 2706 Medivac Juliet
149 TheMagician 385-331 2704 Lenassa Dixie
150 SeriousGamer 134-77 2702 Uraj Dixie
150 rSLagLovah 310-245 2702 Observer Mars
152 deth 304-246 2700 Overmind Victor
153 SlayerSCella 389-240 2698 Raven Zed
154 BigBadBeaver 849-767 2822 Infestor Pepper
155 TalorSwftfan 838-745 2758 Argo Echo
156 GGFighT 194-141 2693 Uraj Dixie
156 lamp 287-196 2693 Turaxis Yankee
158 ONEAscension 374-296 3005 Muadun Pepper
159 ROOTKiWiKaKi 256-99 2689 Medivac Alamo
159 POlar 420-358 2689 Akilae Omicron
161 phantaxx 1054-962 2750 Argo Echo
161 huyNh 578-507 2687 Medivac Alamo
163 Nostra 961-853 2811 Spectre Zed
163 Gerbil 405-350 2685 Pylon Kappa
163 magnolia 620-572 2685 Zergling Quest
163 tQSwarM 472-413 2811 Spectre Zed
167 REQRookie 405-350 2682 Pylon Kappa
168 Destiny 888-802 2679 Observer Mars
169 ClosingTimE 367-308 2804 Infestor Pepper
170 Sid 370-293 2866 Halcyon November
171 VTZerker 610-537 2675 Medivac Alamo
171 ShadowRemedy 157-109 2675 Victory Bravo
171 prosu 450-377 2675 Lenassa Dixie
174 Kangpo 274-220 2800 Typhon Whiskey
174 VTWhiplash 365-305 2674 Observer Mars
176 RuFF 1078-942 2987 Augustgrad X-Ray * 315 not 252
177 GeeFive 213-149 2733 Nagglfar Delta new
178 Maker 781-686 2795 Infestor Pepper
178 sikatrix 422-318 2669 Medic Mu
180 Falcanium 239-180 2668 Medivac Alamo
180 areYeM 104-64 2668 Artika Pepper
182 Russano 1392-1293 2982 Uraj Yankee new
183 REQShuffle 221-179 2676 Medic Pepper * ANOMALY
183 tGBertLegend 598-524 2664 Medic Mu
185 Bandino 644-556 2977 Samiku Pi new
186 nanasii 900-796 2661 Pylon Kappa
187 Adebisi 390-326 2911 Void Ray Tau
188 Domorin 390-337 2657 Kelerchian X-Ray
188 Speake 288-227 2720 Immortal Phi
188 Nadagast 277-183 2657 Talematros Eta
191 ACERGAMEGMMA 1768-1622 2969 Mohandar Romeo
192 Saracen 316-261 2653 Pylon Kappa
193 LiquidHuK 482-171 2652 Medivac Alamo
194 cSOcOmmander 352-290 2651 Hartley Quest
194 REQAndro 872-773 2651 Observer Mars
196 drogba 130-56 2648 Artika Pepper
197 Denelorn 215-111 2647 Victory Bravo
198 BoX 245-198 2646 Hartley Quest
199 Sinatra 368-302 2643 Medivac Alamo
199 PiQLiQ 1468-1179 2643 Shuttle Nu
New divisions this week:
S-Rank: (modifier: +0)
A-Rank: (modifier: +63)
Augustgrad Sigma
Drone Whiskey
Nagglfar Delta
B-Rank: (modifier: +126)
C-Rank: (modifier: +189)
Drone Echo
D-Rank: (modifier: +252)
E-Rank: (modifier: +315)
Samiku Pi
Uraj Yankee
Augustgrad X-Ray (corrected from last week)
You'll notice that some entries are listed with the tag * ANOMALY. This was interesting because while the scores were verified, there appeared to be an unexplained 12 point difference between equally-ranked players in same-level divisions. Upon further research, each of these players had their most recent 1v1 game result as "Left" with no score change. This may be a result of that.
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Excalibur_Z, you can't "leave" 1x1, that means you lost, most people lose 12 points generally, so yeah. It's probably a bug in the site that says left instead of lost (-12).
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United States12236 Posts
On December 14 2010 09:40 SDream wrote:
Excalibur_Z, you can't "leave" 1x1, that means you lost, most people lose 12 points generally, so yeah. It's probably a bug in the site that says left instead of lost (-12).
Yeah, most likely. It's weird that it's not reflected in the scores or games played, though. Their records match up, and their points match up as well. I've seen "1v1 Left" in the past, though it's been rare, but maybe the system corrects these anomalies over time?
EDIT: Ah I think I know. It probably corrects it when they play their next ladder game.
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United States12236 Posts
On December 14 2010 08:40 SDream wrote:This week LA TOP200 is interesting. Does anyone know the guy named HellForce? There seems to be 2 of them and both of them are in a S ranked division. One should be around 31 on top 200 (as it stats in sc2ranks), but isn't. The other is ranked 160 on both sc2ranks and top200. Does anyone know what happens with banned people? Do their profile stays? I would bet he was banned and that's why his older profile isn't on top 200 (nor has any play since nov 30th) for 2 weeks straight. But he probably bought a new account and has once again climbed there. If anyone knows this guys so we could comprove the theory, this makes sense that banned players aren't on top 200, even though their profile stills exists. So we have 1 less mystery in our hands :D http://www.sc2ranks.com/masters/lahttp://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/blog/1670515#bloghttp://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/profile/204057/2/HellForce/http://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/profile/6208/2/HellForce/
Banned player profiles don't indicate anywhere that the player is banned, they still retain their rating and teams and everything. They would just appear to be an inactive player. It makes sense that banned players disappear from the Top 200 rankings, as we've noted to be the case on several servers when drophacks were prevalent.
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On December 14 2010 09:11 SDream wrote:
My theory is that they take the X% better players by MMR (not points), and just then make the Top 200 with only these players. They might actually take the top 200 players by MMR and just sort them by points + divisions.
I think you are right...
I though that maybe the filter was points + bonus pool and then resorted by points. But I found a player that using that system should be there but he isn't:
Sawyer: http://us.battle.net/sc2/es/profile/10522/2/SaWyeR/ladder/2472#current-rank
Sawyer: 1868 points, S Rank Division, 353 bonus pool. Total points = 2221. Not listed.
Greenshu: 1757 points, S Rank Division, 414 bonus pool. Total points = 2171. #189.
So.. If the filter were total points, he should be there. But he isn't, so Greenshu must have a better MMR than Sawyer or Sawyer is banned  .
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LoL, hey Excalibur, this Sawyer still has a game written "left" (saiu) in nov 15. Interesting. I'll ad him in game to see if that's fixed in-game and his opponent.
I'll edit here latter.
Edit: in-game it's stated as "Tie" (empatado) end there was an error when I tried to see the game information (opponent etc).
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United States12236 Posts
On December 14 2010 09:11 SDream wrote:
Sembei, if you do the math of the 200 people in the official top 200 (points - divisions offset) and look at everyone bonus pool, then you'll comprove that the bonus pool doesn't make any role on the math.
My theory is that they take the X% better players by MMR (not points), and just then make the Top 200 with only these players. They might actually take the top 200 players by MMR and just sort them by points + divisions.
I can't prove anything though, but one thing is for sure, bonus pool doesn't have a role in the math for top 200, but that makes sense that someone with 200 bonus points so close to your position is actually better (has a better mmr) than you.
Oh man, I think you've nailed it. That's already how it works for ranking players in their divisions. They get placed in a tier according to their MMR, then they get tracked by points from there. Assuming your hypothesis is correct, the Top 200 would only be consistent with what we've already seen for other leagues. Considering this, it wouldn't surprise me if you're exactly right.
All we would need to prove it is to get accurate data that fits the timeline of the snapshot showing players with higher point totals in the same division not being included in the Top 200. I know we've seen that previously, especially in the LA and TW servers, but now we have an actual theory to check those anomalies against.
EDIT: And actually, to clarify this a bit, the entry requirement is that your MMR's moving average stabilizes within a league boundary.
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On December 14 2010 10:01 SDream wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/profile/10522/2/SaWyeR/This Sawyer? He hasn't played for a awhile, he might actually be banned, or he might be tagged as "inactive". He has been on top 200 before, so that might NOT be a MMR problem.
He played his last game on 11/16. I found (I don't remember who) other player from his division that is ranked on the top 200 and he played his last game on 11/17. Maybe he is inactive only because he played 1 day before, maybe the other player logged in and he didn't (and thats enough to be listed as active) or maybe he's banned.
I'm looking at the MMR issue.. obviously we can't know the players MMR, but at least we can compare 2 players using their public stats:
Conquerz http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/34090/2/Conquerz/
He has 2193 points on a E rank division.
Xkg has 2202 points on the same division.
Xkg is ranked 149 and Conquerz isnt ranked. Xkg win ratio is 53.69% and Conquerz is 55.28%. Xkg has 20 more points on the bonus pool..
Obviously, Xkg could have a better MMR but i don't think the difference could be big enough to explain why xkg is ranked and Conquerz isn't.
Edit: But maybe the MMR is more obscure than I think it is and there could be a big leap in MMR between them.
Edit2: No, my example is wrong . Xkg has 129 bonus points. That could explain the leap in MMR.
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On December 14 2010 10:12 Sembei wrote:He played his last game on 11/16. I found (I don't remember who) other player from his division that is ranked on the top 200 and he played his last game on 11/17. Maybe he is inactive only because he played 1 day before.
Sawyer also didn't make it into top 200 last week, which proves that inactivity problem wasn't the problem (unless just logging in actually makes you active again). I bet he was banned indeed...
http://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/blog/1411367#blog
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On December 14 2010 10:28 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 10:12 Sembei wrote:On December 14 2010 10:01 SDream wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/profile/10522/2/SaWyeR/This Sawyer? He hasn't played for a awhile, he might actually be banned, or he might be tagged as "inactive". He has been on top 200 before, so that might NOT be a MMR problem. He played his last game on 11/16. I found (I don't remember who) other player from his division that is ranked on the top 200 and he played his last game on 11/17. Maybe he is inactive only because he played 1 day before. Sawyer also didn't make it into top 200 last week, which proves that inactivity problem wasn't the problem (unless just logging in already makes you active again). I bet he was banned indeed... http://us.battle.net/sc2/pt/blog/1411367#blog
I tried to find a player that:
Has more total points (points + bonus pool + division points) than any of those listed on the top 200. Because maybe the filter isn't MMR, but total points and then they get resorted by points.
Sawyer was the example I took to dismiss that theory, but maybe Sawyer has been banned.
But i couldn't.. So, maybe its MMR or they use the bonus points to filter the players and then they resort them using only the real points. I don't know..
But I'm out again from the top 200 . I'll keep trying, jjeje.
THanks SDream and Excalibur for your work.
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Is someone able to update the euro version?
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anything about this week? '-'
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United States12236 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:20 Zephirdd wrote:
anything about this week? '-'
This week has already been updated!
Unless you mean the EU/LA servers, in which case I leave that in hephaesto's and SDream's hands =)
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No new divisions on LA servers, but I foresee a new Rank E division soon(tm), if the reset doesn't come first ^^
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On December 14 2010 10:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 09:11 SDream wrote:
Sembei, if you do the math of the 200 people in the official top 200 (points - divisions offset) and look at everyone bonus pool, then you'll comprove that the bonus pool doesn't make any role on the math.
My theory is that they take the X% better players by MMR (not points), and just then make the Top 200 with only these players. They might actually take the top 200 players by MMR and just sort them by points + divisions.
I can't prove anything though, but one thing is for sure, bonus pool doesn't have a role in the math for top 200, but that makes sense that someone with 200 bonus points so close to your position is actually better (has a better mmr) than you. Oh man, I think you've nailed it. That's already how it works for ranking players in their divisions. They get placed in a tier according to their MMR, then they get tracked by points from there. Assuming your hypothesis is correct, the Top 200 would only be consistent with what we've already seen for other leagues. Considering this, it wouldn't surprise me if you're exactly right. All we would need to prove it is to get accurate data that fits the timeline of the snapshot showing players with higher point totals in the same division not being included in the Top 200. I know we've seen that previously, especially in the LA and TW servers, but now we have an actual theory to check those anomalies against. EDIT: And actually, to clarify this a bit, the entry requirement is that your MMR's moving average stabilizes within a league boundary.
Whoa, this is -very- interesting.
So top 200 is already implemented as a league but with only 1 division?
But wait a minute, instead of the usual 20% per league style demarcation, top 200 can just be the 200 players with the highest MMR - meaning it's easier to figure out who belongs there. Why even consider the moving average of players' MMR? why not just use MMR?
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United States12236 Posts
I don't want to concretely say that that's the case, which is why I haven't added that information to the OP, but it sure sounds right. We just need to find outliers and prove it. For example, in division Victory Bravo, player Ver is #4 with 2662 points. He hasn't played a game since 12/11, meaning the 2662 points were what he had at the time of the Top 200. The guy below him, Denelorn, had 2647 points at the time of the snapshot. It's possible that Ver did not have a moving average that crossed into the top 200 players on the server, so maybe that prevented him from being listed.
As for why you wouldn't want to use only MMR, it's because MMR could spike too much to be reliable.
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EPT
