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United States12281 Posts
On November 25 2010 07:31 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
I guess Battle.net 2.0 does so called matching already at lower division levels. This is pure speculation only. From what I know, only diamond has different level divisions. All platinum and lower league divisions are identical within the league. That's what I was told back in beta when platinum was the highest league, though at the time it was also possible to be promoted within platinum to different level divisions too.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if different tiers of divisions existed in lower leagues. In particular, Blizzard said that their solution to the Bronze Zero phenomenon (where players whose MMR is below Bronze Zero win only 2-4 points for a win but lose 20+ points for a loss, thereby anchoring them to 0 points) was to place those affected players in new divisions. Presumably, those new divisions will have very high modifiers and low skill ranges.
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On November 23 2010 08:06 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
c0ldfusion, why would you even want to get into a "better division"? There's no benefit to being S-tier over E-tier or anything of the sort, as both make it equally easy for you to make top 200, and MMR is used for matchmaking, so your points don't even effect who you play. In fact, I would even venture to say that the only real difference is bragging rights (ohoho, I have sooo many points!), which an E-tier division would actually be better for.
I think as they said they want you to focus on "local competition" within your division and it might just be to determine your points gained and lost.
For example if I'm ranked 2nd in my division and the 1st ranked is Boxer. Chances are I can't merely play a ton of games to accumulate points to overtake him. In other words, the system won't reward me with the points I need to overtake Boxer's spot unless I actually prove to the system that I am better than him. So in a division where you are the only top 200 player you might end up with a ton of points like InflowMini (who has the most points at ~3000 points, but is ranked 10th).
Like I said, points across divisions can't really be compared. Blizzard specifically stated they don't allow browsing divisions because players would try to do that. So your visible rating only matters within your division.
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On November 18 2010 06:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:58 Lightspeed wrote:
I'm not sure I understand correctly. If you were promoted to Scout Kilo you would end up with 315 more ladderpoints than if you were promoted to Medic Mu? Where's the sense in this, what would be the reasoning? Great question. Obfuscation, maybe? Blizzard's intent behind separate divisions is apparently to ensure that your focus remains on your own division. When we asked about this at Blizzcon, and in particular why SC2Ranks couldn't be considered an accurate resource, they said that it wasn't their goal to invalidate sites like SC2Ranks, the system they put into place merely had that side effect.
This makes absolutely no sense, like Blizzard talking about "community" on BNet without chat channels and clans.
Why the heck should I care about my division when I know absolutely nobody in it, since every player is registered to a random division? I'd be way more interested in comparing myself to players in Medic Mu because it's actually someone I've heard of before.
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On November 18 2010 06:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Great question. Obfuscation, maybe? Blizzard's intent behind separate divisions is apparently to ensure that your focus remains on your own division. When we asked about this at Blizzcon, and in particular why SC2Ranks couldn't be considered an accurate resource, they said that it wasn't their goal to invalidate sites like SC2Ranks, the system they put into place merely had that side effect.
Hmm... that comment seems to imply that they had reasons to set up divisions in this way other than obfuscation.
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United States12281 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:04 AdrenalinG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 06:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 18 2010 05:58 Lightspeed wrote:
I'm not sure I understand correctly. If you were promoted to Scout Kilo you would end up with 315 more ladderpoints than if you were promoted to Medic Mu? Where's the sense in this, what would be the reasoning? Great question. Obfuscation, maybe? Blizzard's intent behind separate divisions is apparently to ensure that your focus remains on your own division. When we asked about this at Blizzcon, and in particular why SC2Ranks couldn't be considered an accurate resource, they said that it wasn't their goal to invalidate sites like SC2Ranks, the system they put into place merely had that side effect. This makes absolutely no sense, like Blizzard talking about "community" on BNet without chat channels and clans. Why the heck should I care about my division when I know absolutely nobody in it, since every player is registered to a random division? I'd be way more interested in comparing myself to players in Medic Mu because it's actually someone I've heard of before.
No, that's an excellent point. You're no more or less likely to run into people from your own division, you don't really have a division chat channel that you can use to communicate with them, you basically have no contact with them at all. Great point.
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United States12281 Posts
On November 25 2010 04:01 hephaestos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 03:31 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I don't think it's bonus pool, because some of the high level players on NA like Nazgul, Idra, Huk, Dimaga don't even play on NA anymore which means they've been accruing a lot of bonus pool (Huk has over 200 now) and it hasn't impacted their adjusted ratings from what I can see. That leaves me with 2 glitches. Damn matrix. I will see in the next top200 wether they are still there.
How are the rest of them shaping up? Do you have ratings and tiers recorded for each player?
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Hi Excalibur,
awesome analyisis mate well done!
I'm in the top 200 of SEA was 175 on official blizz release and there was quite a differential on Sc2ranks it had me at 88 or somehwere around there. this was back on 16th so too far to go back throuugh match history I believe, but i am interested in doing some data for SEA and particularly my division when the new SEA top200 is release (hoping im still there lol). I know theres been alot of explanation and I think i understand but i just have a couple of Qs if anyone can help:
OK so as soon as the top200 is released, is it possible to compare my ranking on sc2ranks to my ranking on blizz, and somehow correlate that into my Divisions(Baneling Chi) modifier?
Once this weeks SEA Top200 is released, how would i determine exactly what time the snapshot was taken?
Where should I start if I wanted to do a full analysis as you did for NA, would it be with say the top 10 ranks for example?
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On November 25 2010 08:04 AdrenalinG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 06:10 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 18 2010 05:58 Lightspeed wrote:
I'm not sure I understand correctly. If you were promoted to Scout Kilo you would end up with 315 more ladderpoints than if you were promoted to Medic Mu? Where's the sense in this, what would be the reasoning? Great question. Obfuscation, maybe? Blizzard's intent behind separate divisions is apparently to ensure that your focus remains on your own division. When we asked about this at Blizzcon, and in particular why SC2Ranks couldn't be considered an accurate resource, they said that it wasn't their goal to invalidate sites like SC2Ranks, the system they put into place merely had that side effect. This makes absolutely no sense, like Blizzard talking about "community" on BNet without chat channels and clans. Why the heck should I care about my division when I know absolutely nobody in it, since every player is registered to a random division? I'd be way more interested in comparing myself to players in Medic Mu because it's actually someone I've heard of before.
They didn't make divisions so you would go out and have beers with people in your division. It's strictly competition, like a time trial. i.e. not directly.
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Except that most of us just don't give a fuck about who's who in our division. We want to know which skill difference is there against dimaga and the like.
Take my division for instance : We have multiple players having like 2300 points or better. But they aren't even on the top 200 list. Why would i care about them since they're not "as good" as Tarson or Strelok or Moman for that matters ?
The best players in my division isn't even on the top 200 list. Which means i've to get more than 2800 ladder points in order to know if i'm on the top 200 list or not.
How fucked up is that ?
Thank you exca, I'll look it thoroughly next time i get the top 200 and will update the europe servers if i can.
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United States12281 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:23 bornslippy wrote:
Hi Excalibur,
awesome analyisis mate well done!
I'm in the top 200 of SEA was 175 on official blizz release and there was quite a differential on Sc2ranks it had me at 88 or somehwere around there. this was back on 16th so too far to go back throuugh match history I believe, but i am interested in doing some data for SEA and particularly my division when the new SEA top200 is release (hoping im still there lol). I know theres been alot of explanation and I think i understand but i just have a couple of Qs if anyone can help:
OK so as soon as the top200 is released, is it possible to compare my ranking on sc2ranks to my ranking on blizz, and somehow correlate that into my Divisions(Baneling Chi) modifier?
Once this weeks SEA Top200 is released, how would i determine exactly what time the snapshot was taken?
Where should I start if I wanted to do a full analysis as you did for NA, would it be with say the top 10 ranks for example?
I started out using SC2Ranks at first, but the site is rather slow. There's no information you can get on SC2Ranks that you can't get faster on the Battle.net site for the purposes of this analysis, and the Battle.net site has the bonus of being up to date whereas SC2Ranks uses scheduled refreshes of player profiles. For the week of Nov 22, I used Battle.net exclusively.
You can't really tell exactly when the snapshot was taken. This week, they were upfront about identifying the exact time of the snapshot right in the blog post. Last week they didn't mention it, so I only knew that it happened sometime on Nov 15, and Shadowed was able to make the connection that it was between morning and afternoon based on how the information related to his archived data.
When I started these analyses a couple of months ago, I used the top 50. Now that we have win/loss records available, I found that the top 50 didn't provide enough data, and actually it would not have been possible to identify the tiers of some divisions if I chose to only stick with the top 50. For this reason, I decided to just do the entire Top 200. I always went in descending order.
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Ok no worries thanks excal.
jeez I was hoping to get it done in my spare time at work but I think whole top200 may take a while hehe. I will see how I go.
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On November 25 2010 08:12 Excalibur_Z wrote:
No, that's an excellent point. You're no more or less likely to run into people from your own division, you don't really have a division chat channel that you can use to communicate with them, you basically have no contact with them at all. Great point.
I suspect that when chat eventually makes it into the game that division chat channels will probably be there, specifically to address the question of why people should find divisions relevant.
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United States12281 Posts
On November 25 2010 13:14 bornslippy wrote:
Ok no worries thanks excal.
jeez I was hoping to get it done in my spare time at work but I think whole top200 may take a while hehe. I will see how I go.
Nah it really doesn't take that long. Last week took me about 4 hours since I was using SC2Ranks and Battle.net, this week took about half that using Battle.net alone.
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On November 25 2010 13:23 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 13:14 bornslippy wrote:
Ok no worries thanks excal.
jeez I was hoping to get it done in my spare time at work but I think whole top200 may take a while hehe. I will see how I go. Nah it really doesn't take that long. Last week took me about 4 hours since I was using SC2Ranks and Battle.net, this week took about half that using Battle.net alone.
OK Cool no worries mate thanks for the help ill get right on it and see how i go when the t200 updates. if u have any advice to save me time or make easier pls feel free to share 
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On November 25 2010 01:28 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 19:16 Gulzt wrote:On November 18 2010 05:22 Excalibur_Z wrote:
We know that the Top 200 is generated by points without factoring in "the skill of your division."
We know that the Top 200 is not based on MMR or any other factor except points (including bonus used), confirmed at Blizzcon. Hi Excalibur, Great post! Just one question: Can you give us the source to this knowledge? I thought I read every blizzcon post and I never saw this mentioned. In the beta FAQ blizzard clearly stated there was no difference in divisions. The first part was touched upon during the Blizzcon Multiplayer Panel Q&A and was in response to my question, which you can find on Youtube. The second part was not recorded anywhere and comes from a discussion Vanick and I had with the senior designer who answered my question in the Q&A after the panel concluded.
Thanks for clarifying. Great job working out the numbers.
I might have a small fact to add, maybe it's useful in some way:
(small intro)
I collect all my win/loss/rating data in a spreadsheet. The mainreason for doing this is to see what match-ups / maps are my weakest so I can practice those. But a fun extra is that it tells me how much rating I gained or lost after a promotion/demotion.
Now what I noted is that when I was demoted to Platinum I gained 124 points. I see you figured there is a +63 constant to each Class in the devision. Now my +124 doesn't fit in exactly, but it's so very close it makes sense that it's the same sort of thing.
Consider that Platinum players are very often facing diamond players and vica versa. If you check my match history you'll see I face Diamond 1600 players on average, which is considered "teams even", while I'm around Platinum 1100.
Could it be that the leagues overlap?? So for example: Could it be some E-class Diamond leagues are equal to some D-class Platinum leagues?
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to be honest your division is irrelevant unless you play a lot of matches and get up to the higher amounts of points such as 2,000+. because you get placed into the division when you rank up, and you cannot be just kicked out of one, therefor you get placed into a division with a open spot such as a new one or one that had a player get demoted out of it.
Lets say your in a Rank S division such as medivac mu, but you never play very many matches and only have 1,000 points, just because your in that division does not mean your better then a 1,000point player in a completely new division.
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@Devilldog that's not really what he claims. He says you need to consider a divison rating-modifier.
If you're in Medivac Mu with 1,000 points, your rank is equal to a player in Boros Uncle (D-Rank) with 1,252 points.
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On November 25 2010 08:19 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 04:01 hephaestos wrote:On November 25 2010 03:31 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I don't think it's bonus pool, because some of the high level players on NA like Nazgul, Idra, Huk, Dimaga don't even play on NA anymore which means they've been accruing a lot of bonus pool (Huk has over 200 now) and it hasn't impacted their adjusted ratings from what I can see. That leaves me with 2 glitches. Damn matrix. I will see in the next top200 wether they are still there. How are the rest of them shaping up? Do you have ratings and tiers recorded for each player?
I was a bit late, so I could not analyse everyone due to the history not going far enough. I focused on the one for whom I had complete (or near complete) information. I got the rating for 50 players among the top100, and the data fits very well for those 50 players, leading to the division distribution I posted yesterday.
I can give you this data if you wish.
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Are those 6 tiers the only tiers for diamond? Or could someone have a modifier of like 693 in a lower tier?
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On November 25 2010 20:33 SovSov wrote:
Are those 6 tiers the only tiers for diamond? Or could someone have a modifier of like 693 in a lower tier?
We can only know from the division who have players in the top200. For every other division, all we can know is the rank they are NOT (from the points of their top players) but we can not infer their actual rank.
Short answer : yes, one could.
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EPT
