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Korea (South)17174 Posts
To everyone that says "TL needs to be involved," or "OMG NOOO!! KESPA 2!!" here are some things for you to consider:
The whole point of this organization is not to take the SC2 Korean scene by the balls like Kespa did for SC1, it's to make sure the teams and players are protected and promoted to max potential.
The fact of the matter is this: in SC1 things were a lot worse for the players than any of you can imagine. I can't go into detail on specifics, but players rights were certainly being violated by terms in the contract which they had no choice to abide by because there was nothing to protect them. Things like any prize money earned or revenue generated from event appearances was either somewhat or completely being taken by the sponsors of the teams. The amounts of course varied by teams. Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad. The reason why they could do this is because Kespa was organized by the sponsors and controlled the players. Either the progamer abided by their terms or they didn't get to play.
And while, from a business perspective, the sponsors got more than enough out of marketing from paying X00,000$~equivalent per year to sponsor a team, marketing value is intangible and companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can. Whether or not turning players into 'slaves' by wringing as much real $ out of them through taking prize money and event appearance pay amongst other things is 'unethical' or not is completely up for debate.
Remember: the SC1 scene in Korea grew from literally nothing in less than 10 years into a massive industry. The rate of growth was phenomenal, and the only reason why this happened was because the sponsors decided to jump in and get involved. If a team originally approached a sponsor and said "hey pay us 400k a year to run our team and we'll wear your logo!" obviously when SC1 in Korea wasn't as big any company would have just laughed at that. Thats why things started off and continued the way they were: Teams had to entice sponsors to sponsor them. So please don't say the sponsors were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way.
Now, fast forward to present day. The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images. But, at the same time, the dawn of the SC2 world is a ravenous jungle. Everyone in Korea (players, coaches, sponsors) realize the massive potential to make money.
Imagine if there was no sort of unity amongst the players and teams. What would happen? What would happen is the sponsors would have the exact same power over everyone as they did in SC1. Reality is that progamers, managers, coaches, etc. all have no $ and will have to accept deals sooner or later whether they like it or not. Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good. The industry is too developed, it would be idiotic for the teams not to form some sort of union to prevent this from happening and get what they deserve.
This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst eachother to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld. It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase. If everyone were out for themselves nobody would win here.
Does TL need to be involved in this right now? No. As far as the Korean scene is concerned, TL isn't something they need to care about at the moment. Sure, it generates a lot of interest in the foreign scene and is very good for GOMtv/Blizzard, but in reality just because TL has some non-koreans living in the OGS house doesn't mean anything.
The rates of growth of the Korean scene and the non-Korean scene will determine when sponsored foreign teams like TL or others might want to get involved with the decision making process in an association like this. While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
The SC2 scene is still young. I can definitely see a future where Nazgul/TLAF(orwhomever may be sponsoring the team in the future if TLAF decides to stop) wants to get a lot more involved in the Korean scene/press to help expand the industry in Korea for the good of the foreign scene, TL.net, and the Korean scene (lets face it we all know the fans LOVE seeing non-Koreans do well in Korean tournaments). When that time comes obviously it will happen, so it's pointless for people to just spam posts "TL.net SHOULD BE INVOLVED!"
For now, TL.net or any other foreign team for that matter doesn't have any real reason to get involved. For now, we just have to let the Koreans do their thing in Korea and international teams/tournaments do their thing outside Korea and all do our best as fans, players, casters, sponsors (whichever the hell you are, because if you're reading this you're one of those LOL) to watch, talk about, and promote the scene as much as possible.
I hope that clarified things.
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As always an interesting read Rek.
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Thank you for clarifying things up. I always find your posts insightful.
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Rek you are amazing. Didn't you say you wanted back in? Any updates on that? Also I wish you would teach me how to play better nl holdem but I know its not going to happen 
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United States7481 Posts
good post. it's an important distinction that this organization is being formed by the managers and coaches, while kespa was formed by sponsors.
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Very insightiful post, thanks for taking the time to write it.
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While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events.
Hopefully
Korea is the mecca of esports but I absolutely love when korean players go and play abroad. Blizzcon was a good start but we need more regular global tournaments Hopefully we'll get to see oGs, TSL and all these teams send players to MLG and such .
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Rek your amazing as you always are
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There's nothing quite like the taste of a smack in the face with sound logic and reasoning.
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Nice summary of whats going on over there.
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Did any of ex sc1 progamer speak out about team abuse or such matter?
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Awesome post Rekrul, I hope to see you involved more in esports in the future.
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Its sounds like once SC2 is fully developed as an eSport all top professional players will be living in Korea. Is there no chance we could have a simular scene in North America if not as big at least large enough to have teams and people making a living playing competitive starcraft 2? Could there ever be an American SC2 Association modeled after the Korean one, is there enough interest here to do so? If there was then I think it would be fair for team liquid to be heavily involved with our SC2 eSport association.
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I think with Blizzard behind them, this new organization will do well to protect the players, teams, and tournaments so that we don't have any CPL horror stories of players not getting paid or B teamer horror stories of being the team slave for a year.
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Love you big guy ^^
Rek is right, everyone needs to chill.. This guy knows how the system works.
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Thanks for the post Rekrul, cleared out (ohoohoo) a few things for me
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On November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote:in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
This is much like what I have been thinking. 2011 is going to be a telling year. MLG could grow to the point where it has a prize pool that attracts Koreans to America. Even now, the payout is terrific for a weekend thing and the main consideration lies with disruption to GSL.
I also believe we'll see SC2 eSports on a TV channel in the US before the end of 2011.
Of course I'm just "joe blow."
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United States238 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:50 s.a.y wrote:
Did any of ex sc1 progamer speak out about team abuse or such matter?
Not directly. Korean culture is such that speaking out against an establishment (especially those of power, such as government or big corporations) is not a good thing for your well being.
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United States4796 Posts
As always thank you very much Rekrul.
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On November 17 2010 07:50 s.a.y wrote:
Did any of ex sc1 progamer speak out about team abuse or such matter?
Didn't a team get taken to the basement and hit by the coach with a bat or something when they underperformed?
Edit: Found it!!!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=25706
#10
damn those threads were golden.
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On November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote:
While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events.
Makes sense. KeSPA was out to protect their specific leagues and interests first, and that's not present here. If the SC2 teams are really acting in the best interests of the players, I wouldn't be surprised to see the top Koreans heading to MLG, Dreamhack, etc. to expand sponsorship opportunities and win more prize money.
Considering how bad the SC1 houses and contracts are, I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the SC1 turned SC2 team leaders are motivated to make a system that isn't designed to exploit the players.
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I agree, and what you said totally makes sense . . . except not fully. How would you explain the, in comparison, better and "ethical" treatment of players of other e-sports and of foreigner teams? I think part of it is that we're looking at a Korean phenomenon and not an e-sport phenomenon. I want to say now that I'm not trying to get into anything racist, but there is a longer and more fleshed out history of human rights in the West that might have contributed to better treatment. That an unionization that was fostered by a socialized Europe makes this a very likely scenario. I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses.
So, no, I don't think this new association as needed. Maybe for Koreans, but I think that we've already seen a "free market" sprout up with competing tournaments that all offer a pretty good amount of money -- there are just tons of huge SC2 tournaments out there. Ignoring the fact that SC2 had a total of $1 million in cash prizes for tournaments in just its first two weeks after release would be foolish in this case.
Edit: "The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images." I really didn't want to be too confrontational with this, but when I went back and read this quote I was pretty offended. The fact that you could say that rights needed to be violated is an unethical stance at best (as in this combined with the "necessary" bit from before really shows you as putting forth that viewpoint). I'm assuming you didn't mean it in such a brash way, but it certainly doesn't look good.
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals).
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10387 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:59 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 07:50 s.a.y wrote:
Did any of ex sc1 progamer speak out about team abuse or such matter? Didn't a team get taken to the basement and hit by the coach with a bat or something when they underperformed?
that was by KTF, a loooong time ago in the earlier days of SC, and I'm not sure if it was anything more than a rumor
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Goddamit Rek. There was a time where you could be relied on to create drama.
Now you're dumbing drama down?
Sad, sad times.
Nah but seriously it's always good to have the truth spotlighted so the nonsense goes away.
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Thank you for a very informative and well thought read. Some very good points there
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I do think the association will learn from the history and mistakes that the previous, pioneering association did. And given the entirely different constituents of the association and which interests it represents, it will likely do things differently.
Of course, the cynical side of me just sees it as a move by Gretech to ensure that when large sponsors start sponsoring the teams themselves, it will be harder for them to muscle in on what Gretech thinks is its territory.
On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses.
Well if you look at the early histories of pro sports in the West (like baseball, etc) - they were rife with abuse and scandals as well. And to say "MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPa" is a tremendous understatement. MLG isn't even near the point where any of these issues come into play.
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Being the newbie I am, I just read through this and then (Given my sheer ignorace of BW history)I searched you up at Liquipedia and read that whole damn lifestory of yours. And wow,
You're a champ bro.
Thanks for the clearification of the topic at hand.
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On November 17 2010 08:11 Zona wrote:
I do think the association will learn from the history and mistakes that the previous, pioneering association did. And given the entirely different constituents of the association and which interests it represents, it will likely do things differently.
Of course, the cynical side of me just sees it as a move by Gretech to ensure that when large sponsors start sponsoring the teams themselves, it will be harder for them to muscle in on what Gretech thinks is its territory.
This pretty much encapsulates all of my thoughts on it, too.
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wow. Thank you for your explanation man Really insightful
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Good advice. Be like Tyler y'all, and just chill
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On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses.
One of the biggest tournaments for North America in its day(cpl) was constantly being accused of taking advantage of players and not paying out. Which is why back in the day all the major counter strike teams formed a "union" and refused to go to another cpl event. Which eventually led to cpl collapsing(along with a couple other reasons) and being sold to a indian(i believe) company. This was all before mlg was thought of.
I think the NA scene is just more diversified in the games it plays. So starcraft players might not know about all the abuse that happened in the Counter Strike community. Such as cpl, managers taking a percent of team winnings etc.(some taking big chunks)
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I don't get it.
"were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way."
&
"Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad."
doesn't make sense, also
"not only do companies not need to violate players' rights" is _never_ ever a reason for a company to not do the best thing for itself. A company does not have a caution it only has stock holders.
"Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good."
Or you could call it "free market" without "fixed deals" where the best sponsor gets the best team
"It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase."
Which also means that teams not inside this "inner circle of teams" will have a harder time increasing there marketing value.
Power can be abused where ever it is and this does not sound like the ultimate revelation which is going to make everything better.
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Osaka27149 Posts
While I agree that TL isn't really in a place to be involved at the moment, I do think the lines of communication need to be formed and maintained now, rather than later. Over the last ten years communication between us and the Korean scene has been abysmal, unbelievably so. I don't want that to continue to be the case, especially if things develop well enough in Korea that players don't have to look too far afield. Koreans like their insulated scene if they can get away with it.
I think this communication will be much easier if there are feet on the ground in Korea, which is why I am hopeful. But I think our presence needs to be felt in this time of development rather than after everything is set up and the parameters are solidified. It is much easier to achieve change in a time of building than it is after a structure is agreed upon, especially in Asian contexts.
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On November 17 2010 08:21 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses.
One of the biggest tournaments for North America in its day(cpl) was constantly being accused of taking advantage of players and not paying out. Which is why back in the day all the major counter strike teams formed a "union" and refused to go to another cpl event. Which eventually led to cpl collapsing(along with a couple other reasons) and being sold to a indian(i believe) company. This was all before mlg was thought of. I think the NA scene is just more diversified in the games it plays. So starcraft players might not know about all the abuse that happened in the Counter Strike community. Such as cpl, managers taking a percent of team winnings etc.(some taking big chunks)
Doesn't this help to prove my point? That was just one part of the North American community and it was ended by a strike! Have you seen that happen to KeSPA? Nope.
Fiscal abuse was a big point in my last post, but I'm also pretty sure that, with my admittedly incomplete knowledge, it went farther than that in Korea but didn't so much in North America/the rest of the world (I honestly haven't heard of abuses in Europe. Probably just because you don't hear about stuff there as much, especially with gaming [or at least that's my perception/experience].).
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Very nice read rekrul, it's very sad the things that SC1 pro gamers faced, thanks for the informative post on that.
I love reading you're posts because they are always so insightful and straight to the point / very blunt and honest, Keep up the good work rek! Hope to see you in that GSL booth one day hehe
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On November 17 2010 08:27 Manifesto7 wrote:
While I agree that TL isn't really in a place to be involved at the moment, I do think the lines of communication need to be formed and maintained now, rather than later. Over the last ten years communication between us and the Korean scene has been abysmal, unbelievably so. I don't want that to continue to be the case, especially if things develop well enough in Korea that players don't have to look too far afield. Koreans like their insulated scene if they can get away with it.
I think this communication will be much easier if there are feet on the ground in Korea, which is why I am hopeful. But I think our presence needs to be felt in this time of development rather than after everything is set up and the parameters are solidified. It is much easier to achieve change in a time of building than it is after a structure is agreed upon, especially in Asian contexts.
This is an excellent point. I was actually listening to one of the older Live On 3s (the one that was the first one with Day[9] on it) and they mentioned that a great thing was GOMs international focus. I would really hate for that to go away, since I think it would be detrimental. A "foreign" group like they also mentioned on the show would be great and probably help, but more KeSPA things that could surface with isolation might just hold us back as e-sports starts to become more publicized (but I guess that could, arguably, go into that "professionalism" bit that Wheat talked about in his recent blog posts. I don't think you can apply it to rights, but there is a gap in making it to the mainstream that applies, possibly.).
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Anything short of a player union is a failure. If the voices of the players aren't separated from the voices of the team/sponsors there is room for abusing the co-dependent relationship as the teams will always answer to their sponsors because the sponsors right the checks.
"This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst each other to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld. It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase. "
I'm sorry we used and abused child labor for maximum profit, we made a board of people so it doesn't happen again. All due respect to some people who work or are in the know in the industry. There are some terrific people that love everything that is gaming e-sports. It's their passion, it's their love. With Broodwar partially in the hands of people who could be defined as sweat shop owners for so long I find it hard to believe that "all is well" with the creation of some panel. Do the children get third party lawyers to protect them? Is this panel actually going to do anything or is it just a place for people like Jaedongs parents to complain to? Time will tell I guess
Hoping for the best, expecting the worst.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
well as i can read this post, i know much better how bad is to be a progamer under kespa influence
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:23 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:
I don't get it.
"were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way."
&
"Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad."
doesn't make sense, also
"not only do companies not need to violate players' rights" is _never_ ever a reason for a company to not do the best thing for itself. A company does not have a caution it only has stock holders.
"Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good."
Or you could call it "free market" without "fixed deals" where the best sponsor gets the best team
"It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase."
Which also means that teams not inside this "inner circle of teams" will have a harder time increasing there marketing value.
Power can be abused where ever it is and this does not sound like the ultimate revelation which is going to make everything better.
You have some valid points, and I agree with you it's not some golden union that's going to magically fix all the 'problems,' but it is a step in the right direction for the balance of the industry.
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I seem to have completely missed what you are talking about? What is this new association?
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On November 17 2010 08:33 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:23 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:
I don't get it.
"were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way."
&
"Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad."
doesn't make sense, also
"not only do companies not need to violate players' rights" is _never_ ever a reason for a company to not do the best thing for itself. A company does not have a caution it only has stock holders.
"Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good."
Or you could call it "free market" without "fixed deals" where the best sponsor gets the best team
"It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase."
Which also means that teams not inside this "inner circle of teams" will have a harder time increasing there marketing value.
Power can be abused where ever it is and this does not sound like the ultimate revelation which is going to make everything better. You have some valid points, and I agree with you it's not some golden union that's going to magically fix all the 'problems,' but it is a step in the right direction for the balance of the industry.
I agree on that one fully with you.
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Thanks for the overview, good read!
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Calgary25980 Posts
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On November 17 2010 08:28 Char711 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:21 Falcor wrote:On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses.
One of the biggest tournaments for North America in its day(cpl) was constantly being accused of taking advantage of players and not paying out. Which is why back in the day all the major counter strike teams formed a "union" and refused to go to another cpl event. Which eventually led to cpl collapsing(along with a couple other reasons) and being sold to a indian(i believe) company. This was all before mlg was thought of. I think the NA scene is just more diversified in the games it plays. So starcraft players might not know about all the abuse that happened in the Counter Strike community. Such as cpl, managers taking a percent of team winnings etc.(some taking big chunks) Doesn't this help to prove my point? That was just one part of the North American community and it was ended by a strike! Have you seen that happen to KeSPA? Nope. .
it does, never said it was to disprove your post, just adding to your last statement since you didnt know of specific incidents.
But in all honesty how the first post described it, it sounded like a player union to me :|
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals).
I'm not taking a stance either way. What happened happened and hopefully won't happen again. I'm merely saying that you can't really lean one way or another when talking about if it originally helped the growth of the industry or not.
I mean, if you look at it from the sponsors point of view they invested into the industry and made it so popular and gave these nerdy kids who sat around playing games all a chance to become famous and make lots of money.
You can't really say "THATS SO UNFAIR!" for a sponsor to sign a 100,000$/year contract with a player that has clauses that say 50% of prize money go back to the sponsor. Of course from a fanboy perspective one can't help but think "OMG he worked so hard and earned it he should get the $$!!" but that's not how the world works.
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On November 17 2010 08:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals). You can't really say "THATS SO UNFAIR!" for a sponsor to sign a 100,000$/year contract with a player that has clauses that say 50% of prize money go back to the sponsor. Of course from a fanboy perspective one can't help but think "OMG he worked so hard and earned it he should get the $$!!" but that's not how the world works.
that actually sounds reasonable to me :| I would only improve that by saying 50% until the 100,00$ investment has been repayed and then 10% until the end of contract but thats just me 
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it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
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Thanks for laying down the law Rek.
Hopefully like you said in the future we'll have a very fluid esports scene with foreigners going to Korea and vise versa.
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United States11637 Posts
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:59 lastmotion wrote:
it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
lolol
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How close to the truth is it to say that this committees job will be to sit down with players and teams and try to hash out all of the following: player contract negotiations, living conditions, practice (work) hours, likeness licensing fees, etc.
You know because it's Korea I half expect them to move with unheard of speed as one solid body. It'll be ran in a completely fucked up way but it'll run and everyone will play their part, it feels so Korean. The fact they just make a new "Korean Governing Body" under a new name with a new message is straight up American style thinking. Bravo gents Bravo. Enough rambling.
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Starcraft 2 should become what starcraft 1 was in korea, only starcraft 2 should involve the entire world.
With a better tournament for worlds best starcraft 2 player (not like WCG which sucks)
world e-sports need that to happen, every game would benefit from that
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is awesome32274 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:59 lastmotion wrote:
it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
Rek is the sponsor
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
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Interesting, I really hope they can keep things under control, and not let things get pulled back to how things were with SC1. Hopefully this is the 'dawn of a new age' as it were, where teams and players are treated fairly.
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hmmm
maybe TL, ROOT or EG could work with blizzard on forming a Union in the US and Europe?
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On November 17 2010 08:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals). I'm not taking a stance either way. What happened happened and hopefully won't happen again. I'm merely saying that you can't really lean one way or another when talking about if it originally helped the growth of the industry or not. I mean, if you look at it from the sponsors point of view they invested into the industry and made it so popular and gave these nerdy kids who sat around playing games all a chance to become famous and make lots of money. You can't really say "THATS SO UNFAIR!" for a sponsor to sign a 100,000$/year contract with a player that has clauses that say 50% of prize money go back to the sponsor. Of course from a fanboy perspective one can't help but think "OMG he worked so hard and earned it he should get the $$!!" but that's not how the world works.
To me, this seems sort of similar to the UFC. The UFC signs fighters to restrictive contracts and basically owns the fighters. The bottom tier guys have no leverage and aren't making much at all and can be cut after 1 loss. That said, without the work of Dana White and the UFC over the past 10 years mixed martial arts would just be guys fighting in local shows making nothing, and the UFC deserves the right to make a profit for all the capital and effort they put in to making MMA a legit sport in the US.
Certainly the SC1 players are treated worse than the MMA fighters, but it's analogous in that without the sponsors no one would be getting paid out of SC1.
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and rek has spoken. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Nice read Rek. Should we start one up for CF? (it's "Bisu") ^_^
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On November 17 2010 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:59 lastmotion wrote:
it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
Rek is the sponsor
lololol
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United States33388 Posts
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Dan strikes again. Well said man.
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Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road.
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So... when are you going to be in charge of the whole she-bang?
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On November 17 2010 08:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals). I'm not taking a stance either way. What happened happened and hopefully won't happen again. I'm merely saying that you can't really lean one way or another when talking about if it originally helped the growth of the industry or not. I mean, if you look at it from the sponsors point of view they invested into the industry and made it so popular and gave these nerdy kids who sat around playing games all a chance to become famous and make lots of money. You can't really say "THATS SO UNFAIR!" for a sponsor to sign a 100,000$/year contract with a player that has clauses that say 50% of prize money go back to the sponsor. Of course from a fanboy perspective one can't help but think "OMG he worked so hard and earned it he should get the $$!!" but that's not how the world works.
How can I not say that's unfair? This practice would be looked down upon and possibly punished severely in basically every other part of the world that is capable of hosting e-sports (AKA "First World," or, if you don't play word politics, the "Global North"). It is a misleading contract at best. But, if I'm reading that correctly, do you mean guaranteed $100,000 a year with prize money on top? Because that's pretty good and can be seen as a trade of security/guaranteed money for the possibility of those higher tournament earnings. However, it goes against the idea of the very beginning of e-sports that we were talking about as that was not a salary given in the very beginning and was/is certainly not the average. We're not talking about the five guys at the top, but rather the average pro-gamer (haha, yes, slightly oxymoron-ish there, but we're still not talking about "lots of money" for the vast majority of those "nerdy kids").
I still don't think you've answered the strongest part of my argument at all. I refuse to believe you can say that something that took such obvious advantage of people can be justified solely by the fact that it made an industry bigger and developed it. By your logic there are too many horrible labor practices and inequities in the world that would just be further perpetuated based on the logic that it improves a country (supposedly, and a highly contentious topic in international relations) or industry (rather the same here, depending on the situation). Largely, it is just profit for the people at the top. Letting the fact that it made e-sports more visible cloud your judgment is unacceptable: you have to consider the wider implications of what you're saying here.
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I can't believe i missed out on meeting you at blizzcon
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Thanks for giving us more insight, appreciate it.
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On November 17 2010 09:57 Mutaahh wrote:
Starcraft 2 should become what starcraft 1 was in korea, only starcraft 2 should involve the entire world.
With a better tournament for worlds best starcraft 2 player (not like WCG which sucks)
world e-sports need that to happen, every game would benefit from that
ah the dreams...
dont kid yourself it will never happen in the near future that people in the west accept esports.
and SCII is nto a miracle that will solve this "problem" mb when you and me are "old" esports here is accepted.
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thanks for the clarifaction
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I'm relatively new to TL, but I'm beginning to grow an appreciation for Rekrul posts.
Sounds like a great idea to form some sort of union for players' rights. I keep hearing whisperings of what goes on in terms of how players are treated in the BW scene and I hope that doesn't transfer to SC2. I also hope kespa dies once and for all. There doesn't seem to be much good coming out them. imo, BW would benefit from having them gone for good.
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Korean culture is way different than western culture
Life of an entertainer in Korea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jang_Ja-yeon
of note, the manager that abused and pimped her out got 1 year, no one else was punished at all.
There is absolutely no doubt that SC:BW teams probably beat, didn't let players eat, forced them to practice extremely long hours etc. It's practically the most obvious thing in the world.
Not to say America or any other country is better, it's just a reality of the situation and the fact it is somewhat easier to pull off such things in Korea in certain cases / companies. I'm personally really glad the players/teams have a second chance and hopefully it's better than SC1, either way if foreign teams set up shop it will be fine as I can just cheer for them.
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On November 17 2010 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:59 lastmotion wrote:
it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
Rek is the sponsor
it all makes sense now
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Thank you for that. You always have the well informed point of view.
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Can't wait for the day the foreign teams will make a similar association . One in north america, one in europe... Then we know we have made it far!
Good read btw, thanks to the info.
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Thanks for a great read! In the past, I was often unsure whether Kespa was doing its job right and what was going on behind the scenes. But I preferred to support the BW players in whatever they were doing and are still doing now.
Though, you putting everything into a harsh perspective hurts but that is to be expected. Hey, Rek, I want to ask, do you honestly think BW can still survive with or without Kespa and prosper along with SC2? Or are we seeing only SC2 in the future? *shrugs*
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Good read, thnx for the info
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On November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote:
The whole point of this organization is not to take the SC2 Korean scene by the balls like Kespa did for SC1, it's to make sure the teams and players are protected and promoted to max potential.
And why can't teams and players protect and promote themselves? They do in other industries. All this is doing is adding another 'middleman' who will take more of the limited wealth generated by E-Sports.
Great for middlemen. Bad for players. Now there is less money for them.
The fact of the matter is this: in SC1 things were a lot worse for the players than any of you can imagine. I can't go into detail on specifics, but players rights were certainly being violated by terms in the contract which they had no choice to abide by because there was nothing to protect them.
I am not familiar with the South Korean legal system. What are these 'players rights' you are talking about? Can you source them? What legal definition are you referring to when you say 'players rights'?
Were individuals violating contracts? If contracts were violated, the legal system should enforce it. If the legal system doesn't, then that is a problem with the legal system. No association would solve such an issue.
If I am following this correctly, what you are saying is that players signed bad contracts and got taken advantage of.
Things like any prize money earned or revenue generated from event appearances was either somewhat or completely being taken by the sponsors of the teams. The amounts of course varied by teams. Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad.
You make it sound as if they were thieves. It sounds like they were doing exactly what the terms of the contract were.
The reason why they could do this is because Kespa was organized by the sponsors and controlled the players. Either the progamer abided by their terms or they didn't get to play.
You make it sound they were not allowed to play Starcraft at all. They could still play Starcraft but not within any KESPA controlled entity.
And while, from a business perspective, the sponsors got more than enough out of marketing from paying X00,000$~equivalent per year to sponsor a team, marketing value is intangible and companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can.
Of course companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can.
So do players.
Heck, who doesn't try to get as much money as possible.
Whether or not turning players into 'slaves' by wringing as much real $ out of them through taking prize money and event appearance pay amongst other things is 'unethical' or not is completely up for debate.
Actually, it isn't. If they voluntarily went into it, they either follow those rules or quit. Comparing a voluntary association to slavery would be a gross distortion.
Remember: the SC1 scene in Korea grew from literally nothing in less than 10 years into a massive industry.
Also remember, South Korea in general has been growing from literally nothing from forty years ago to where they are today with leading industries. The success of Starcraft in South Korea has more to do that it was following the generalized 'growth trend' of the nation and also there was no competition from consoles. In this regard, South Korea reminds me of Japan back in the 1980s.
The rate of growth was phenomenal, and the only reason why this happened was because the sponsors decided to jump in and get involved. If a team originally approached a sponsor and said "hey pay us 400k a year to run our team and we'll wear your logo!" obviously when SC1 in Korea wasn't as big any company would have just laughed at that. Thats why things started off and continued the way they were: Teams had to entice sponsors to sponsor them. So please don't say the sponsors were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way.
So why the need for an 'association'?
Now, fast forward to present day. The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images. But, at the same time, the dawn of the SC2 world is a ravenous jungle. Everyone in Korea (players, coaches, sponsors) realize the massive potential to make money.
What are these 'players rights' you keep mentioning? You never define them.
Imagine if there was no sort of unity amongst the players and teams. What would happen?
Competition?
What would happen is the sponsors would have the exact same power over everyone as they did in SC1.
What 'power'? Ironically, the 'power' you are talking about didn't come from any sponsor but from KESPA itself. The last I checked, it was KESPA who was fighting Blizzard, not any sponsor.
Reality is that progamers, managers, coaches, etc. all have no $ and will have to accept deals sooner or later whether they like it or not.
No money? Well, who's fault is that? Can they find no investors? Or have they even bothered to look?
Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good.
The 'worth' is defined by the buyer.
What is seems you are describing is generalized ignorance on the part of the teams and players who are signing bad contracts without them realizing it.
Instead of making any 'association', why don't we educate the teams and players about their options? Business education is the key, not some middleman 'entity' whose existence will just drain more wealth away from the limited pie that is E-Sports.
The fact is that teams and players, if properly educated, would be making more money without any 'association' than with it. However, I am sure many movers and shakers do not want this to be realized.
The industry is too developed, it would be idiotic for the teams not to form some sort of union to prevent this from happening and get what they deserve.
It would be idiotic to form a union. And trust me, they will get what they deserve!
This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst each other to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld.
What ARE these rights?
It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase.
Every industry that unionizes has their marketing value DECREASE. This is actually very good for the foreign scene of SC 2. This means sponsors will have more incentive to invest in E-Sports outside of South Korea. After all, that is all the union is going to do.
If everyone were out for themselves nobody would win here.
Why not? You don't say. You just go on.
Does TL need to be involved in this right now? No. As far as the Korean scene is concerned, TL isn't something they need to care about at the moment. Sure, it generates a lot of interest in the foreign scene and is very good for GOMtv/Blizzard, but in reality just because TL has some non-koreans living in the OGS house doesn't mean anything.
The rates of growth of the Korean scene and the non-Korean scene will determine when sponsored foreign teams like TL or others might want to get involved with the decision making process in an association like this. While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
The SC2 scene is still young. I can definitely see a future where Nazgul/TLAF(orwhomever may be sponsoring the team in the future if TLAF decides to stop) wants to get a lot more involved in the Korean scene/press to help expand the industry in Korea for the good of the foreign scene, TL.net, and the Korean scene (lets face it we all know the fans LOVE seeing non-Koreans do well in Korean tournaments). When that time comes obviously it will happen, so it's pointless for people to just spam posts "TL.net SHOULD BE INVOLVED!"
I'm still waiting for some legal definition of what this thing called 'players rights' are. I'm not familiar with the South Korean legal system, and I am anxious to learn about this.
For now, TL.net or any other foreign team for that matter doesn't have any real reason to get involved. For now, we just have to let the Koreans do their thing in Korea and international teams/tournaments do their thing outside Korea and all do our best as fans, players, casters, sponsors (whichever the hell you are, because if you're reading this you're one of those LOL) to watch, talk about, and promote the scene as much as possible.
Yes. It would be ridiculous for a foreign team to get involved in such an organization when there is more money to be made by being outside it.
I hope that clarified things.
I think you might have done the opposite.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2010 12:46 Poyo wrote:
Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road. Two problems with the above. One, it is very wrong to compare something like the NFL to... this. Sports (like American football) brings in so much money, such a ridiculous amount, that it is literally impossible to own any team and lose money. Every player gets money in the millions. The last I checked, E-Sports players do not get money anywhere near that amount. Worse, this money is made primarily through winning certain tournaments. The point is that while all the non-players of the NFL are making tons and tons of money, the players are also making tons of money to become super wealthy. Being a professional sports player often means one is wealthy. Being a professional E-Sports player often means one is poor. There is very little money in E-Sports in comparison to real sports. This means any 'union' will just suck up much of what little money there is. Two, the film industry in America is a complete disaster. It is so bad that movies are now no longer made in Hollywood. These unions are driving business away from places like California. Much of California's financial woes (and we are talking beyond Greece here) is due to these unions. So if you love Starcraft 2, the last thing you want is any film industry type union for it.
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On November 17 2010 19:12 Macavity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote:
The whole point of this organization is not to take the SC2 Korean scene by the balls like Kespa did for SC1, it's to make sure the teams and players are protected and promoted to max potential. And why can't teams and players protect and promote themselves? They do in other industries. All this is doing is adding another 'middleman' who will take more of the limited wealth generated by E-Sports. Great for middlemen. Bad for players. Now there is less money for them. The fact of the matter is this: in SC1 things were a lot worse for the players than any of you can imagine. I can't go into detail on specifics, but players rights were certainly being violated by terms in the contract which they had no choice to abide by because there was nothing to protect them. I am not familiar with the South Korean legal system. What are these 'players rights' you are talking about? Can you source them? What legal definition are you referring to when you say 'players rights'? Were individuals violating contracts? If contracts were violated, the legal system should enforce it. If the legal system doesn't, then that is a problem with the legal system. No association would solve such an issue. If I am following this correctly, what you are saying is that players signed bad contracts and got taken advantage of. Things like any prize money earned or revenue generated from event appearances was either somewhat or completely being taken by the sponsors of the teams. The amounts of course varied by teams. Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad. You make it sound as if they were thieves. It sounds like they were doing exactly what the terms of the contract were. The reason why they could do this is because Kespa was organized by the sponsors and controlled the players. Either the progamer abided by their terms or they didn't get to play. You make it sound they were not allowed to play Starcraft at all. They could still play Starcraft but not within any KESPA controlled entity. And while, from a business perspective, the sponsors got more than enough out of marketing from paying X00,000$~equivalent per year to sponsor a team, marketing value is intangible and companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can. Of course companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can. So do players. Heck, who doesn't try to get as much money as possible. Whether or not turning players into 'slaves' by wringing as much real $ out of them through taking prize money and event appearance pay amongst other things is 'unethical' or not is completely up for debate. Actually, it isn't. If they voluntarily went into it, they either follow those rules or quit. Comparing a voluntary association to slavery would be a gross distortion. Remember: the SC1 scene in Korea grew from literally nothing in less than 10 years into a massive industry. Also remember, South Korea in general has been growing from literally nothing from forty years ago to where they are today with leading industries. The success of Starcraft in South Korea has more to do that it was following the generalized 'growth trend' of the nation and also there was no competition from consoles. In this regard, South Korea reminds me of Japan back in the 1980s. The rate of growth was phenomenal, and the only reason why this happened was because the sponsors decided to jump in and get involved. If a team originally approached a sponsor and said "hey pay us 400k a year to run our team and we'll wear your logo!" obviously when SC1 in Korea wasn't as big any company would have just laughed at that. Thats why things started off and continued the way they were: Teams had to entice sponsors to sponsor them. So please don't say the sponsors were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way. So why the need for an 'association'? Now, fast forward to present day. The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images. But, at the same time, the dawn of the SC2 world is a ravenous jungle. Everyone in Korea (players, coaches, sponsors) realize the massive potential to make money. What are these 'players rights' you keep mentioning? You never define them. Imagine if there was no sort of unity amongst the players and teams. What would happen? Competition? What would happen is the sponsors would have the exact same power over everyone as they did in SC1. What 'power'? Ironically, the 'power' you are talking about didn't come from any sponsor but from KESPA itself. The last I checked, it was KESPA who was fighting Blizzard, not any sponsor. Reality is that progamers, managers, coaches, etc. all have no $ and will have to accept deals sooner or later whether they like it or not. No money? Well, who's fault is that? Can they find no investors? Or have they even bothered to look? Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good. The 'worth' is defined by the buyer. What is seems you are describing is generalized ignorance on the part of the teams and players who are signing bad contracts without them realizing it. Instead of making any 'association', why don't we educate the teams and players about their options? Business education is the key, not some middleman 'entity' whose existence will just drain more wealth away from the limited pie that is E-Sports. The fact is that teams and players, if properly educated, would be making more money without any 'association' than with it. However, I am sure many movers and shakers do not want this to be realized. The industry is too developed, it would be idiotic for the teams not to form some sort of union to prevent this from happening and get what they deserve. It would be idiotic to form a union. And trust me, they will get what they deserve! This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst each other to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld. What ARE these rights? It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase. Every industry that unionizes has their marketing value DECREASE. This is actually very good for the foreign scene of SC 2. This means sponsors will have more incentive to invest in E-Sports outside of South Korea. After all, that is all the union is going to do. If everyone were out for themselves nobody would win here. Why not? You don't say. You just go on. Does TL need to be involved in this right now? No. As far as the Korean scene is concerned, TL isn't something they need to care about at the moment. Sure, it generates a lot of interest in the foreign scene and is very good for GOMtv/Blizzard, but in reality just because TL has some non-koreans living in the OGS house doesn't mean anything.
The rates of growth of the Korean scene and the non-Korean scene will determine when sponsored foreign teams like TL or others might want to get involved with the decision making process in an association like this. While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
The SC2 scene is still young. I can definitely see a future where Nazgul/TLAF(orwhomever may be sponsoring the team in the future if TLAF decides to stop) wants to get a lot more involved in the Korean scene/press to help expand the industry in Korea for the good of the foreign scene, TL.net, and the Korean scene (lets face it we all know the fans LOVE seeing non-Koreans do well in Korean tournaments). When that time comes obviously it will happen, so it's pointless for people to just spam posts "TL.net SHOULD BE INVOLVED!" I'm still waiting for some legal definition of what this thing called 'players rights' are. I'm not familiar with the South Korean legal system, and I am anxious to learn about this. For now, TL.net or any other foreign team for that matter doesn't have any real reason to get involved. For now, we just have to let the Koreans do their thing in Korea and international teams/tournaments do their thing outside Korea and all do our best as fans, players, casters, sponsors (whichever the hell you are, because if you're reading this you're one of those LOL) to watch, talk about, and promote the scene as much as possible. Yes. It would be ridiculous for a foreign team to get involved in such an organization when there is more money to be made by being outside it. I hope that clarified things. I think you might have done the opposite. + Show Spoiler +On November 17 2010 12:46 Poyo wrote:
Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road. Two problems with the above. One, it is very wrong to compare something like the NFL to... this. Sports (like American football) brings in so much money, such a ridiculous amount, that it is literally impossible to own any team and lose money. Every player gets money in the millions. The last I checked, E-Sports players do not get money anywhere near that amount. Worse, this money is made primarily through winning certain tournaments. The point is that while all the non-players of the NFL are making tons and tons of money, the players are also making tons of money to become super wealthy. Being a professional sports player often means one is wealthy. Being a professional E-Sports player often means one is poor. There is very little money in E-Sports in comparison to real sports. This means any 'union' will just suck up much of what little money there is. Two, the film industry in America is a complete disaster. It is so bad that movies are now no longer made in Hollywood. These unions are driving business away from places like California. Much of California's financial woes (and we are talking beyond Greece here) is due to these unions. So if you love Starcraft 2, the last thing you want is any film industry type union for it.
It sounds like you are mostly disagreeing with everything here just for the sake for disagreeing, (or are just being heavily anti-union). Carefully read the other thread if you want more details of the what the organization is trying to achieve.
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Just a note to the above guy
Kespa controlled all of SC:BW in korea (the only real market).
Kespa was controlled by the sponsors, so in effect it was a complete monopoly. You either did what kespa wanted and played on a kespa team or you didn't play. There was no real "free market" or anything like that, it was all settup so all new players would be forced to play on a Kespa team (draft), and be forced to play in such conditions if they wanted to play SC:BW competitively.
Also there are no legal rights (I believe) to "Entertainers" in korea, especially those under 18, and slave contracts are extremely normal.
It seems the teams/players are forming this to collective bargain with sponsors and probably with gomtv. It seems to be non profit, and the leader is a guy against "forced" practice (aka slave teams). It definitely seems to be a positive effort, and I'm sure rek has some inside information/insight far above anyone else in this thread.
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On November 17 2010 19:12 Macavity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote:
The whole point of this organization is not to take the SC2 Korean scene by the balls like Kespa did for SC1, it's to make sure the teams and players are protected and promoted to max potential. And why can't teams and players protect and promote themselves? They do in other industries. All this is doing is adding another 'middleman' who will take more of the limited wealth generated by E-Sports. Great for middlemen. Bad for players. Now there is less money for them. Show nested quote +The fact of the matter is this: in SC1 things were a lot worse for the players than any of you can imagine. I can't go into detail on specifics, but players rights were certainly being violated by terms in the contract which they had no choice to abide by because there was nothing to protect them. I am not familiar with the South Korean legal system. What are these 'players rights' you are talking about? Can you source them? What legal definition are you referring to when you say 'players rights'? Were individuals violating contracts? If contracts were violated, the legal system should enforce it. If the legal system doesn't, then that is a problem with the legal system. No association would solve such an issue. If I am following this correctly, what you are saying is that players signed bad contracts and got taken advantage of. Show nested quote +Things like any prize money earned or revenue generated from event appearances was either somewhat or completely being taken by the sponsors of the teams. The amounts of course varied by teams. Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad. You make it sound as if they were thieves. It sounds like they were doing exactly what the terms of the contract were. Show nested quote +The reason why they could do this is because Kespa was organized by the sponsors and controlled the players. Either the progamer abided by their terms or they didn't get to play. You make it sound they were not allowed to play Starcraft at all. They could still play Starcraft but not within any KESPA controlled entity. Show nested quote +And while, from a business perspective, the sponsors got more than enough out of marketing from paying X00,000$~equivalent per year to sponsor a team, marketing value is intangible and companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can. Of course companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can. So do players. Heck, who doesn't try to get as much money as possible. Show nested quote +Whether or not turning players into 'slaves' by wringing as much real $ out of them through taking prize money and event appearance pay amongst other things is 'unethical' or not is completely up for debate. Actually, it isn't. If they voluntarily went into it, they either follow those rules or quit. Comparing a voluntary association to slavery would be a gross distortion. Show nested quote +Remember: the SC1 scene in Korea grew from literally nothing in less than 10 years into a massive industry. Also remember, South Korea in general has been growing from literally nothing from forty years ago to where they are today with leading industries. The success of Starcraft in South Korea has more to do that it was following the generalized 'growth trend' of the nation and also there was no competition from consoles. In this regard, South Korea reminds me of Japan back in the 1980s. Show nested quote +The rate of growth was phenomenal, and the only reason why this happened was because the sponsors decided to jump in and get involved. If a team originally approached a sponsor and said "hey pay us 400k a year to run our team and we'll wear your logo!" obviously when SC1 in Korea wasn't as big any company would have just laughed at that. Thats why things started off and continued the way they were: Teams had to entice sponsors to sponsor them. So please don't say the sponsors were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way. So why the need for an 'association'? Show nested quote +Now, fast forward to present day. The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images. But, at the same time, the dawn of the SC2 world is a ravenous jungle. Everyone in Korea (players, coaches, sponsors) realize the massive potential to make money. What are these 'players rights' you keep mentioning? You never define them. Show nested quote +Imagine if there was no sort of unity amongst the players and teams. What would happen? Competition? Show nested quote +What would happen is the sponsors would have the exact same power over everyone as they did in SC1. What 'power'? Ironically, the 'power' you are talking about didn't come from any sponsor but from KESPA itself. The last I checked, it was KESPA who was fighting Blizzard, not any sponsor. Show nested quote +Reality is that progamers, managers, coaches, etc. all have no $ and will have to accept deals sooner or later whether they like it or not. No money? Well, who's fault is that? Can they find no investors? Or have they even bothered to look? Show nested quote +Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good. The 'worth' is defined by the buyer. What is seems you are describing is generalized ignorance on the part of the teams and players who are signing bad contracts without them realizing it. Instead of making any 'association', why don't we educate the teams and players about their options? Business education is the key, not some middleman 'entity' whose existence will just drain more wealth away from the limited pie that is E-Sports. The fact is that teams and players, if properly educated, would be making more money without any 'association' than with it. However, I am sure many movers and shakers do not want this to be realized. Show nested quote +The industry is too developed, it would be idiotic for the teams not to form some sort of union to prevent this from happening and get what they deserve. It would be idiotic to form a union. And trust me, they will get what they deserve! Show nested quote +This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst each other to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld. What ARE these rights? Show nested quote +It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase. Every industry that unionizes has their marketing value DECREASE. This is actually very good for the foreign scene of SC 2. This means sponsors will have more incentive to invest in E-Sports outside of South Korea. After all, that is all the union is going to do. Why not? You don't say. You just go on. Show nested quote +Does TL need to be involved in this right now? No. As far as the Korean scene is concerned, TL isn't something they need to care about at the moment. Sure, it generates a lot of interest in the foreign scene and is very good for GOMtv/Blizzard, but in reality just because TL has some non-koreans living in the OGS house doesn't mean anything.
The rates of growth of the Korean scene and the non-Korean scene will determine when sponsored foreign teams like TL or others might want to get involved with the decision making process in an association like this. While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
The SC2 scene is still young. I can definitely see a future where Nazgul/TLAF(orwhomever may be sponsoring the team in the future if TLAF decides to stop) wants to get a lot more involved in the Korean scene/press to help expand the industry in Korea for the good of the foreign scene, TL.net, and the Korean scene (lets face it we all know the fans LOVE seeing non-Koreans do well in Korean tournaments). When that time comes obviously it will happen, so it's pointless for people to just spam posts "TL.net SHOULD BE INVOLVED!" I'm still waiting for some legal definition of what this thing called 'players rights' are. I'm not familiar with the South Korean legal system, and I am anxious to learn about this. Show nested quote +For now, TL.net or any other foreign team for that matter doesn't have any real reason to get involved. For now, we just have to let the Koreans do their thing in Korea and international teams/tournaments do their thing outside Korea and all do our best as fans, players, casters, sponsors (whichever the hell you are, because if you're reading this you're one of those LOL) to watch, talk about, and promote the scene as much as possible. Yes. It would be ridiculous for a foreign team to get involved in such an organization when there is more money to be made by being outside it. I think you might have done the opposite. + Show Spoiler +On November 17 2010 12:46 Poyo wrote:
Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road. Two problems with the above. One, it is very wrong to compare something like the NFL to... this. Sports (like American football) brings in so much money, such a ridiculous amount, that it is literally impossible to own any team and lose money. Every player gets money in the millions. The last I checked, E-Sports players do not get money anywhere near that amount. Worse, this money is made primarily through winning certain tournaments. The point is that while all the non-players of the NFL are making tons and tons of money, the players are also making tons of money to become super wealthy. Being a professional sports player often means one is wealthy. Being a professional E-Sports player often means one is poor. There is very little money in E-Sports in comparison to real sports. This means any 'union' will just suck up much of what little money there is. Two, the film industry in America is a complete disaster. It is so bad that movies are now no longer made in Hollywood. These unions are driving business away from places like California. Much of California's financial woes (and we are talking beyond Greece here) is due to these unions. So if you love Starcraft 2, the last thing you want is any film industry type union for it.
I wholeheartedly agree with all of your observations and concerns regarding the unionization of a "niche" market segment, there is simply not enough money to distribute between players, organizations and regulatory agencies to make it worth it. Including more barriers to the business will only result in the decrease of its networth.
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I just wanted to drop by and say thank you, Rekrul. Your posts are always incredibly informative. TL would be worse without you.
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thanks for the extra insight.
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This article is awesome for those lost souls in TL~ Thank you!
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Macavity
it seems to me you have very limited knowledge how unions work in the real world.
There for all your arguments are tainted and can not be taken seriously.
Edit: At least the ones you make against a Union.
A team- players union would be amazingly good for every team / player in that union.
You get better and most importantly fairer deals for everybody in that union.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
This association isn't really a union anyways. LOL @ Macavity's post btw.
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Maybe the B team players will finally get paid.
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This is a bit ironic... People often consider "socialism" to be a dirty word, but when you explain them why organising a union (KESPA2) to protect the workers (progamers) from being exploited by ruthless capitalists (sponsoring corporations), pretty much everyone is really happy about it.
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On November 18 2010 04:18 Rekrul wrote:
This association isn't really a union anyways. LOL @ Macavity's post btw.
I'd like to know some of the answers to his questions as well. Much of his analysis was sound to me, imo, Macavity's post deserves more than a "LOL" from you.
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On November 18 2010 08:38 drlame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 04:18 Rekrul wrote:
This association isn't really a union anyways. LOL @ Macavity's post btw. I'd like to know some of the answers to his questions as well. Much of his analysis was sound to me, imo, Macavity's post deserves more than a "LOL" from you.
I agree in at least that, for something Rek was taking so seriously, you can't just give flippant responses to everyone's rebuttals (which, I'm sorry, is what I'm actually seeing for most of the follow-ups).
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When a bunch of sponsors will jump into SC2, there will also be a need for an association for them... in order for the smaller companies to be able to contribute into e-sports without getting stomped because they can't compete financially.
Look at the western model in the major professional sports, there's always an association for the owners and one for the players.
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You guys should keep demanding serious and comprehensive follow-up replies to your posts from Rekrul. He totally owes it to all of you. Appeal to his journalistic integrity and ethics. I'm sure that'll work.
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On November 18 2010 10:08 heyitsme wrote:
When a bunch of sponsors will jump into SC2, there will also be a need for an association for them... in order for the smaller companies to be able to contribute into e-sports without getting stomped because they can't compete financially.
Look at the western model in the major professional sports, there's always an association for the owners and one for the players.
I think you are right! There is a need for a team association to defend their rights and the players and a sponsors/leagues association to make competions happen and insure their provit!
The problem with Kespa for what i understand is that they act for the leagues, sponsors and control de teams and players and that makes the all deals unfair because it's all controled by one and not all of them can get fair deals!
If they make this new "kespa" by the players and for the players they will get more money in a cleaner and heathier environment.
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On November 17 2010 19:12 Macavity wrote:Show nested quote +The reason why they could do this is because Kespa was organized by the sponsors and controlled the players. Either the progamer abided by their terms or they didn't get to play. You make it sound they were not allowed to play Starcraft at all. They could still play Starcraft but not within any KESPA controlled entity.
Well yes you can play but in what tournament and on what team? It seems to me that everything is controlled by kespa.
Can anyone fill me in on what exactly has kespa been doing that would be called violating players' rights? Are they offering contracts and deals that is unfair to the players?
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On November 18 2010 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
You guys should keep demanding serious and comprehensive follow-up replies to your posts from Rekrul. He totally owes it to all of you. Appeal to his journalistic integrity and ethics. I'm sure that'll work.
You're right, writing such a long post in order to respond to an issue shows that you're not serious about it at all. After all, it's not like you were responding to what everyone was already saying about it or anything.
We're not saying he owes us anything. We're just asking that, if he replies, it actually gets down to the core issues rather than just reading through and casually dismissing most of the arguments, especially considering how cogent most of them are.
Besides, Rekrul's a good guy and his posts are usually awesome -- I see no reason why it's not something we couldn't appeal to.
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Canada11350 Posts
But maybe it's better for Rek to not reply as to reply to Macavity's comments would inevitably derail the thread into a union vs individualism debate and whether or not there is such a thing as cut-throat capitalism. And whether the Grapes of Wrath accurately depicted the state of American capitalism during the depression.
I can see it all now.
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I want players and those who do the 'real work' of making Starcraft 2 E-sports fun and exciting (including the casters) to make as much money as possible. I want them to make so much money doing what they love that they never want to stop doing it to get a 'real job'. I want the talent to make the money, not the middlemen. Sadly, in many entertainment industries, this is not the case. It is the owner of the radio station owning the fancy car, not the actual radio show host. It is the book publisher living it large at expensive restaurants, not the writer who still has to live frugally.
So I have a few questions about this new Korean SC 2 Association.
1) How much percentage of the cashflow does the Korean SC 2 Association get? [Since, obviously, these people are not going to work for free. They will have their hand in the SC 2 E-Sports money jar.]
2) Where are the problems of the current Starcraft 2 situation that warrants any need for some sort of 'association'? [I haven't heard of any problems but, then again, perhaps unfortunate events occurred that are not well known on this forum.]
3) If this SC 2 Association is so awesome, why not have similar associations in the Americas and Europe? [Perhaps because the players in the West would never abide to such terms? Such associations, such as in the United States, have been in steady decline for the past century.]
4) What are the consequences if a Korean player chooses not to participate in such an association?
On November 18 2010 04:18 Rekrul wrote:
This association isn't really a union anyways. LOL @ Macavity's post btw.
Well, what is it then? Everyone else in this thread is referring to it as a union. We could use some more specifics and less on the glittering generalities. The consistent reference of 'player's rights' deserves some more specifics. In a law class, whenever a student made a rhetorical notion of 'rights', the law prof would always slam the table and shout, "Rights? What rights!? Show me in the law what rights you are referring to!"
I have personally been in losing sides of contract disputes, and it was because I didn't fully understand the contract. As a U.S. judge told me, someone not understanding the contract doesn't invalidate it. It really sucks, and it has been a life lesson for me. But the solution is education on contracts and some on business/law.
People have said that in Korea, there is fear to 'speak out against the establishment'. If this is true, that means the Korean population would be considered 'easily controlled'. My fear is that people see a potential money pot with SC 2 there and are seeking to leverage it as much as possible... at the expense of the talent (the players).
If the SC 2 Association defines the 'max potential' of earnings, this means the limit of what SC 2 players earn will be determined by this association. It is putting a ceiling one what a player may earn.
Why not have the players determine the 'max potential' of earnings the SC 2 Association may make? After all, it is the players doing all the work.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2010 19:42 dacthehork wrote:
Just a note to the above guy
Kespa controlled all of SC:BW in korea (the only real market).
Kespa was controlled by the sponsors, so in effect it was a complete monopoly. You either did what kespa wanted and played on a kespa team or you didn't play. There was no real "free market" or anything like that, it was all settup so all new players would be forced to play on a Kespa team (draft), and be forced to play in such conditions if they wanted to play SC:BW competitively.
Also there are no legal rights (I believe) to "Entertainers" in korea, especially those under 18, and slave contracts are extremely normal.
It seems the teams/players are forming this to collective bargain with sponsors and probably with gomtv. It seems to be non profit, and the leader is a guy against "forced" practice (aka slave teams). It definitely seems to be a positive effort, and I'm sure rek has some inside information/insight far above anyone else in this thread. 1. Kespa is an extreme example of something gone wrong. But it is not uncommon. 2. Slave contract is an oxymoron. If someone is going to use the language of slavery and all, I need some specifics. The solution to 'bad contracts' is not some bloated organization who will only remove money from a limited niche market. The solution is to educate the players (who are very young) so they don't sign such bad contracts. And if it is so bad, why not make such contracts illegal through the Korean legislature? 3. "It seems to be non-profit." You better confirm that. 4. "I'm sure rek has some inside information/insight far above anyone else in this thread." Then perhaps he can say more than 'LOL'. I suspect the only purpose of this SC 2 Association is money. It is a way to dip a hand into the revenue stream generated by SC 2. If anyone is so concerned about Korean players' rights, why not educate them instead of being a parasite on their revenue stream?
+ Show Spoiler +On November 18 2010 08:26 xtfftc wrote:This is a bit ironic... People often consider "socialism" to be a dirty word, but when you explain them why organising a union (KESPA2) to protect the workers (progamers) from being exploited by ruthless capitalists (sponsoring corporations), pretty much everyone is really happy about it. Curious that there is so much political rhetoric in this thread where it isn't warranted. Primarily, this is an issue of cashflow concerning E-Sports.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 18 2010 02:17 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:
Macavity
it seems to me you have very limited knowledge how unions work in the real world.
There for all your arguments are tainted and can not be taken seriously.
Edit: At least the ones you make against a Union.
A team- players union would be amazingly good for every team / player in that union.
You get better and most importantly fairer deals for everybody in that union. Since I have, as you say, 'very limited knowledge', perhaps you can enlighten me in some specific examples. The specific examples I have seen would be the utter collapse of the American car industry (Detroit is a fourth world city now), film unions' high prices resulting in more and more movies being made outside Hollywood, and the the collapse of states such as California and New Jersey due to state unions (such as teacher's unions).
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When Rekrul is speaking about players' rights he's not talking about legal rights. He's actually talking about the players' interests. As in the need for an organization that can support players' interests. In fact if Rekrul were talking about legal rights there would not be as much of a need for this kind of organization. It's because these rights may not exist in law that an organization representing the players' interests is need to negotiate for the rights.
I don't know what law professors you guys have been exposed to, but most understand the distinction between legal rights and other unenumerated rights. Actually any Constitutional law professor will talk about this in the first year.
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Lol Macavity's post is one of those who just post to disagree/have argument/start flamewar.
On November 18 2010 08:26 xtfftc wrote:This is a bit ironic... People often consider "socialism" to be a dirty word, but when you explain them why organising a union (KESPA2) to protect the workers (progamers) from being exploited by ruthless capitalists (sponsoring corporations), pretty much everyone is really happy about it.
My thoughts exactly. KeSPA is ran by sponsors and let's face it - sponsors most of the time don't give a shit about players. Except for the tip-top ones.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On November 18 2010 13:28 Char711 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
You guys should keep demanding serious and comprehensive follow-up replies to your posts from Rekrul. He totally owes it to all of you. Appeal to his journalistic integrity and ethics. I'm sure that'll work. You're right, writing such a long post in order to respond to an issue shows that you're not serious about it at all. After all, it's not like you were responding to what everyone was already saying about it or anything. We're not saying he owes us anything. We're just asking that, if he replies, it actually gets down to the core issues rather than just reading through and casually dismissing most of the arguments, especially considering how cogent most of them are. Besides, Rekrul's a good guy and his posts are usually awesome -- I see no reason why it's not something we couldn't appeal to.
My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand.
You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place. If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago.
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Macavity it looks like you are trying to argue about something you don't really know, and i'm not talking about laws and unions, I'm talking about what happens in korea with Kespa and the players and blizzard.
There's a lot a threads in the foruns that will explain why Kespa is viewed that way:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895
Every sport, industry, profession etc.. has a association to provide support to it's members, create bussiness oportunities and stand up for their rights!
Even lawyers have it.. come on why does it have to have middleman? this new "Kespa" is made of players and teams so i don't why they have to hire someone to work full time. Maybe some day in the future.
Right now there's one sponsored league and a player association would be the right way to talk to that league to try and change something the players and teams feel they should.
Imagine the players don't like the maps! would you prefer that each team talk to the league or that a representation of the majority of the teams opinions talk to the league?
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If you ask me Rekrul is being deliberately dishonest.
Teams can't survive into the future without sponsors. Let alone get professional. Only Gretech is allowed to run tournaments and once Blizzard is no longer spending money to market SC2, prize money will drop.
Teams right now already struggle. Sponsors and professionalism will have to increase. At that point sponsor/team/player interests will be the same and they will oppose Blizzard.
Blizzard doesn't dislike Kespa for the reasons we do. Even if Kespa were saintly, Blizzard and Kespa interests collide. Blizzard wants to share the IP rights of the complete end product of esports 50/50 with the broadcaster. Be it Gomtv/Gretech or MBC/OGN. The teams/kespa want to share 33/33/33. The teams and players are putting in a huge investment. They provide the actual creative content. In the future it will take months to train up top class players out of merely talented ones. It is a huge investment. Players and teams will step up and demand a 33/33/33 in SC2.
If not, SC2 will die or become like WC3 in the later years.
I also don't see how SC2 players are ever going to be able to have the luxuries that SC BW proteams have. SC BW market their sport the most optimal way. I don't even know who sponsors oGs, Prime, EG or any of those other teams while TL is sponsored by a very small company that is probably run by only a few people. And I only know that because of shutouts during interviews.
How are SC2 teams going to market their sponsors? You need to have team leagues with teams named after the brand their promote.
And then the only improvement over SC BW you are going to get is to have something similar to the Bosman ruling they had in football. And that is going to compromise the integrity of the game where 2 top sponsors are going to get all the top players by paying the right salaries and winning every team. Especially since there's no actual team work involved. You can just get Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc and win everything. Restricting player movement was done for to keep proleague exiting and balanced like how they do in the US where the weakest teams can draft the best new talents. It is worse for the players, but having no team league and no relevant sponsor money is way way worse.
Bosman ruling gave players way more rights and maybe rights they should have. But it damaged football tremendously and is the cause of almost all football teams going broke and having to have million euro taxplayer injections while the top players get absurd salaries. US sport federations do a much better job.
Also, Blizzard so far hasn't been able to awake the sleeping giant that is China. China and Korea are where SC2 esports is going to be important. NA and Europe are important for sales, but not for Esports. There's a reason 100% of the money Blizzard spends on esports prize money is going to Korea. There's a reason why Gretech doesn't run a parallel GSL outside of Korea.
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On November 18 2010 14:01 Macavity wrote: [Perhaps because the players in the West would never abide to such terms? Such associations, such as in the United States, have been in steady decline for the past century.]
I'm not going to delve into the political implications - I don't think this is why this thread was created - but I would like to point out that the professional players in the West abide to even worse terms. However, it is agents they are dealing with, not associations.
Anyway, Almeisan has made some good points. It's nice that at least some people realise that GSL is not that mega-awesome league that is the future of Esports. It is not, it is merely a marketing campaign. And this is also the reason why the quality of the games does not match the size of the prize pool. It didn't grow gradually, while players were providing a better entertainment and fans were demanding more coverage. Instead of nurturing the community and investing in development, Activision are relying on big headlines. The bottom line is that they have made a huge gamble, instead of aiming at sustained growth, so the Korean SC2 scene could crash badly in 2011.
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Every thread created by Rekrul regarding Starcraft is a MUST read for all fans. Thank you Rekrul.
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On November 18 2010 20:27 Almeisan wrote:
blah blah blah
bunch of random shit that has nothing to do with the issues at hand. If you read rekrul's post he talked about how it was so that the teams/players could hopefully avoid signing crappy contracts with bigger companies. They still obviously want big contracts and will try for them, just not ones where the players end up slaves and coaches forcing them to practice all day.
Also your random paragraph at the end about china is stupid and has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
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On November 18 2010 21:16 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 14:01 Macavity wrote: [Perhaps because the players in the West would never abide to such terms? Such associations, such as in the United States, have been in steady decline for the past century.] I'm not going to delve into the political implications - I don't think this is why this thread was created - but I would like to point out that the professional players in the West abide to even worse terms. However, it is agents they are dealing with, not associations. Anyway, Almeisan has made some good points. It's nice that at least some people realise that GSL is not that mega-awesome league that is the future of Esports. It is not, it is merely a marketing campaign. And this is also the reason why the quality of the games does not match the size of the prize pool. It didn't grow gradually, while players were providing a better entertainment and fans were demanding more coverage. Instead of nurturing the community and investing in development, Activision are relying on big headlines. The bottom line is that they have made a huge gamble, instead of aiming at sustained growth, so the Korean SC2 scene could crash badly in 2011.
great point on the new SC2 korean association. Talking about GSL prize money and how it will crash in 2011.. Excellent
also "not going into political implications".. yeah the political implication behind SC2 are vast. Thanks for sparing us expert insight into how it effects korea/US relations and the political climate.
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Do not read this post unless you are macavity or someone else arguing in this thread who just arrived 6 months ago and don't have the slightest idea how korean culture / kespa works or who rekrul is and why you should trust him.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 18 2010 14:01 Macavity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2010 19:42 dacthehork wrote:
Just a note to the above guy
Kespa controlled all of SC:BW in korea (the only real market).
Kespa was controlled by the sponsors, so in effect it was a complete monopoly. You either did what kespa wanted and played on a kespa team or you didn't play. There was no real "free market" or anything like that, it was all settup so all new players would be forced to play on a Kespa team (draft), and be forced to play in such conditions if they wanted to play SC:BW competitively.
Also there are no legal rights (I believe) to "Entertainers" in korea, especially those under 18, and slave contracts are extremely normal.
It seems the teams/players are forming this to collective bargain with sponsors and probably with gomtv. It seems to be non profit, and the leader is a guy against "forced" practice (aka slave teams). It definitely seems to be a positive effort, and I'm sure rek has some inside information/insight far above anyone else in this thread. 1. Kespa is an extreme example of something gone wrong. But it is not uncommon. 2. Slave contract is an oxymoron. If someone is going to use the language of slavery and all, I need some specifics. The solution to 'bad contracts' is not some bloated organization who will only remove money from a limited niche market. The solution is to educate the players (who are very young) so they don't sign such bad contracts. And if it is so bad, why not make such contracts illegal through the Korean legislature? 3. "It seems to be non-profit." You better confirm that. 4. "I'm sure rek has some inside information/insight far above anyone else in this thread." Then perhaps he can say more than 'LOL'. I suspect the only purpose of this SC 2 Association is money. It is a way to dip a hand into the revenue stream generated by SC 2. If anyone is so concerned about Korean players' rights, why not educate them instead of being a parasite on their revenue stream?
1. Don't see any point to this point. I was pointing out kespa sucked, and you agreed.
2. Slave contract is not an oxymoron. Being beaten with bats when losing, forced practice schedules with little freedom, if you quit you can not play kespa events for many years. Your point on "bloated organization" is ridiculous. The teams banded together and elected a single person to represent them along with a council with a person representing each team. Also players will elect 1 player to represent them. It is not bloated at all and your point makes no sense. Also it is not a "middle man" because it's representative/selected from the players/coachers directly. (Directly means no middle man if you are dense)
SC:BW korean players had 2 options, play under KESPA or not play. Funny enough all the players we have ever heard of chose to play under KESPA. KeSPA is part of the korean government sort of, it was approved by the ministry of culture and sports etc. Also it is widely known that korea offers no legal protection (in terms of hours worked or contracts) to entertainers. You can freely look this up yourself and then talk once you are slightly educated on korean culture.
3. The organization announced "we are non profit unlike kespa". I'm not sure what more proof you want or anyone could supply to you.
4. He already did, did you not read his post? He has been around a long time and is probably the most trusted person when it comes to the inner workings of anything in Korea, even the match fixing scandal etc.
You suspect something.. yet everything points otherwise including very trusted sources, aka no one cares and all your points are coming from someone who just learned about teamliquid less then 6 months ago. The people in charge of this organization are the teams themselves, it's not a middle man moving in. This was extremely clear to anyone who read the post on it (aka coaches/managers being on the council/heading it up) along with rekruls post in this thread.
You are basically making up some story about people coming in and establishing this as a third party, when it is the teams themselves. Then arguing as if your imaginary world where it is a third party is true. Your argument is baseless, look at the members/leaders/people involved in the organization and you will see it is just a way to collective bargain, not a middleman skimming revenue.
Again this point is stupid and baseless, you are making up some stupid fucking argument from a baseless claim they are just parasites instead of a collectively picked representative to protect their interests (players/teams).
Please stop posting in this thread/teamliquid in general.
+ Show Spoiler +You expect everyone else to educate you while you make stupid claims. How about educate yourself so you don't make such stupid claims in the first place or speak without a base to stand on.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Great read, thx for the post : )
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thanks rek that really shed a lot of insight into what's going on
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I dont understand the point behind why TL team should not get involved. Because its made up of foreigners? That is simply racist. Because it lives in OGS house? That is just funny. TL.net is just a site, it has nothing to do with SC2 association in Korea, but TL team is just as relevant to that association as any other Korean team. They live in Korea, they have sponsors, they play korean tourneys, why not? Dont mix TL.net and TL team.
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Really nice post Rekrul, thanks for the insight
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On November 18 2010 23:16 Cheerio wrote:
I dont understand the point behind why TL team should not get involved. Because its made up of foreigners? That is simply racist. Because it lives in OGS house? That is just funny. TL.net is just a site, it has nothing to do with SC2 association in Korea, but TL team is just as relevant to that association as any other Korean team. They live in Korea, they have sponsors, they play korean tourneys, why not? Dont mix TL.net and TL team.
Maybe because TL doesn't have dozens of members in korea?
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Excellent points. I was aware that KeSPA and the SCBW scene in general were greatly influenced by sponsors, but I didn't know to what extent, and you explained this very clearly.
I agree with you that TL should not be involved at this moment. It will be very interesting to see how this model pans out, especially as more and more non-Korean companies get into the sponsoring business for SC2 teams. I wonder if South Korea will always remain the geographic center of the StarCraft world just because no other place has the physical infrastructure to be the focal point, or if some other country will catch up and become a new haven for StarCraft (China?).
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On November 18 2010 15:56 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 13:28 Char711 wrote:On November 18 2010 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
You guys should keep demanding serious and comprehensive follow-up replies to your posts from Rekrul. He totally owes it to all of you. Appeal to his journalistic integrity and ethics. I'm sure that'll work. You're right, writing such a long post in order to respond to an issue shows that you're not serious about it at all. After all, it's not like you were responding to what everyone was already saying about it or anything. We're not saying he owes us anything. We're just asking that, if he replies, it actually gets down to the core issues rather than just reading through and casually dismissing most of the arguments, especially considering how cogent most of them are. Besides, Rekrul's a good guy and his posts are usually awesome -- I see no reason why it's not something we couldn't appeal to. My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand. You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place. If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago.
I must respectfully disagree on behalf of my posts, at least. You're guilty of the same thing in the few substantive responses you've given, in my opinion. It seems this is a time when we all agree to disagree.
It's nice to have a place like Team Liquid where people won't cruise control caps lock or just insult you and actually respond. <3 you guys.
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On November 18 2010 15:16 AyJay wrote:
Lol Macavity's post is one of those who just post to disagree/have argument/start flamewar.
Not at all. Keep in mind that I'm actually trying to have a discussion while other people are trying to stop discussion on this subject.
Once again, I will explain my concern. Entertainment industries tend to heavily leverage the talent, and untalented outsiders act as a parasite on the revenue stream. The talent doesn't realize this because they are often young and focused intently on their craft. They don't realize how heavily leveraged they are. Kids signing 'bad contracts' and all just proves this point.
All Rekrul has done is talked about the SC 2 Association's "good intentions". Only a fool would accept any organization based on their 'intentions'. So I want some more substantial questions answered such as, "How much of the SC 2 revenue pie will the SC 2 Association get?" It's very possible Rekrul and other people do not have this information yet. But answers such as that are paramount in understanding what exactly is going on.
And that is all I want to do is find out what is going on.
On November 18 2010 15:56 Rekrul wrote:
My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand.
You painted the issue as 'SC 2 Association' or 'slavery' which is laughable. We didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday.
Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your OP was disjointed because of lack of sleep or something else. On this message forum (like any other message forum), these things tend to happen. If someone is telling me that the SC 2 Association is awesome, I'd like there to be presented facts backing it up. If this SC 2 Association isn't "awesome", then we have a problem.
You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place.
My posts are framed around questions. In the last post, I nicely asked four simple questions.
No one is taking you out of context. I'm quoting you verbatim. It is strange that you are so defensive.
If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago.
Or perhaps you are unable to. Or unwilling.
Again, why make a thread about the SC 2 Association if you don't wish to participate in it? It makes no sense to make a thread about the SC 2 Association and then not answer any questions about it. Instead, your replies have been condescending. To sum up your two follow-up posts...
"LOL"
and
"If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago."
Give me a break.
If you are going to make a post telling people what to think, you need to back it up with substance!
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Can't you go a bit easier on Rekrul? He is a forum veteran and has always contributed a lot by giving us all a good laugh. Also, he is a poker hero, they say. His post wasn't intended to be complete and correct.
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Thanks for the clarification.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On November 19 2010 21:43 Macavity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 15:16 AyJay wrote:
Lol Macavity's post is one of those who just post to disagree/have argument/start flamewar. Not at all. Keep in mind that I'm actually trying to have a discussion while other people are trying to stop discussion on this subject. Once again, I will explain my concern. Entertainment industries tend to heavily leverage the talent, and untalented outsiders act as a parasite on the revenue stream. The talent doesn't realize this because they are often young and focused intently on their craft. They don't realize how heavily leveraged they are. Kids signing 'bad contracts' and all just proves this point. All Rekrul has done is talked about the SC 2 Association's "good intentions". Only a fool would accept any organization based on their 'intentions'. So I want some more substantial questions answered such as, "How much of the SC 2 revenue pie will the SC 2 Association get?" It's very possible Rekrul and other people do not have this information yet. But answers such as that are paramount in understanding what exactly is going on. And that is all I want to do is find out what is going on. Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 15:56 Rekrul wrote:
My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand. You painted the issue as 'SC 2 Association' or 'slavery' which is laughable. We didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your OP was disjointed because of lack of sleep or something else. On this message forum (like any other message forum), these things tend to happen. If someone is telling me that the SC 2 Association is awesome, I'd like there to be presented facts backing it up. If this SC 2 Association isn't "awesome", then we have a problem. Show nested quote +You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place. My posts are framed around questions. In the last post, I nicely asked four simple questions. No one is taking you out of context. I'm quoting you verbatim. It is strange that you are so defensive. Show nested quote +If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago. Or perhaps you are unable to. Or unwilling. Again, why make a thread about the SC 2 Association if you don't wish to participate in it? It makes no sense to make a thread about the SC 2 Association and then not answer any questions about it. Instead, your replies have been condescending. To sum up your two follow-up posts... "LOL" and "If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago." Give me a break. If you are going to make a post telling people what to think, you need to back it up with substance!
It is merely a group of key users among SC2 progamers/teams that will have meetings and discuss issues at hand to make sure no player is being abused like they kinda were in SC1. Of course the 'association' isn't going to take $. No clue why you are assuming and asking all these retarded questions.
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On November 20 2010 02:43 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 21:43 Macavity wrote:On November 18 2010 15:16 AyJay wrote:
Lol Macavity's post is one of those who just post to disagree/have argument/start flamewar. Not at all. Keep in mind that I'm actually trying to have a discussion while other people are trying to stop discussion on this subject. Once again, I will explain my concern. Entertainment industries tend to heavily leverage the talent, and untalented outsiders act as a parasite on the revenue stream. The talent doesn't realize this because they are often young and focused intently on their craft. They don't realize how heavily leveraged they are. Kids signing 'bad contracts' and all just proves this point. All Rekrul has done is talked about the SC 2 Association's "good intentions". Only a fool would accept any organization based on their 'intentions'. So I want some more substantial questions answered such as, "How much of the SC 2 revenue pie will the SC 2 Association get?" It's very possible Rekrul and other people do not have this information yet. But answers such as that are paramount in understanding what exactly is going on. And that is all I want to do is find out what is going on. On November 18 2010 15:56 Rekrul wrote:
My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand. You painted the issue as 'SC 2 Association' or 'slavery' which is laughable. We didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your OP was disjointed because of lack of sleep or something else. On this message forum (like any other message forum), these things tend to happen. If someone is telling me that the SC 2 Association is awesome, I'd like there to be presented facts backing it up. If this SC 2 Association isn't "awesome", then we have a problem. You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place. My posts are framed around questions. In the last post, I nicely asked four simple questions. No one is taking you out of context. I'm quoting you verbatim. It is strange that you are so defensive. If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago. Or perhaps you are unable to. Or unwilling. Again, why make a thread about the SC 2 Association if you don't wish to participate in it? It makes no sense to make a thread about the SC 2 Association and then not answer any questions about it. Instead, your replies have been condescending. To sum up your two follow-up posts... "LOL" and "If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago." Give me a break. If you are going to make a post telling people what to think, you need to back it up with substance! It is merely a group of key users among SC2 progamers/teams that will have meetings and discuss issues at hand to make sure no player is being abused like they kinda were in SC1. Of course the 'association' isn't going to take $. No clue why you are assuming and asking all these retarded questions.
Awesome summary. I definitely approve of this type of thing.
One of the things that I love about SC2 is that the community is just so close knit. I feel like there are more international bonds and stuff being made here than there ever was in BW or in other games. I feel like I'm a part of some movement. That sounds corny, but I still feel that it's true.
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On November 19 2010 21:43 Macavity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 15:16 AyJay wrote:
Lol Macavity's post is one of those who just post to disagree/have argument/start flamewar. Not at all. Keep in mind that I'm actually trying to have a discussion while other people are trying to stop discussion on this subject. Once again, I will explain my concern. Entertainment industries tend to heavily leverage the talent, and untalented outsiders act as a parasite on the revenue stream. The talent doesn't realize this because they are often young and focused intently on their craft. They don't realize how heavily leveraged they are. Kids signing 'bad contracts' and all just proves this point. All Rekrul has done is talked about the SC 2 Association's "good intentions". Only a fool would accept any organization based on their 'intentions'. So I want some more substantial questions answered such as, "How much of the SC 2 revenue pie will the SC 2 Association get?" It's very possible Rekrul and other people do not have this information yet. But answers such as that are paramount in understanding what exactly is going on. And that is all I want to do is find out what is going on. Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 15:56 Rekrul wrote:
My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand. You painted the issue as 'SC 2 Association' or 'slavery' which is laughable. We didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your OP was disjointed because of lack of sleep or something else. On this message forum (like any other message forum), these things tend to happen. If someone is telling me that the SC 2 Association is awesome, I'd like there to be presented facts backing it up. If this SC 2 Association isn't "awesome", then we have a problem. Show nested quote +You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place. My posts are framed around questions. In the last post, I nicely asked four simple questions. No one is taking you out of context. I'm quoting you verbatim. It is strange that you are so defensive. Show nested quote +If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago. Or perhaps you are unable to. Or unwilling. Again, why make a thread about the SC 2 Association if you don't wish to participate in it? It makes no sense to make a thread about the SC 2 Association and then not answer any questions about it. Instead, your replies have been condescending. To sum up your two follow-up posts... "LOL" and "If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago." Give me a break. If you are going to make a post telling people what to think, you need to back it up with substance!
man, is it ever frustrating to attempt laying out your questions in a clear and concise format, in order to foster intelligent *discussion*, and then have people just plug their ears and yell over you. post secondary education really makes me appreciate thought out arguments. too bad intelligence is a faculty shared by the minority.
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On November 20 2010 06:42 WarSong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 21:43 Macavity wrote:On November 18 2010 15:16 AyJay wrote:
Lol Macavity's post is one of those who just post to disagree/have argument/start flamewar. Not at all. Keep in mind that I'm actually trying to have a discussion while other people are trying to stop discussion on this subject. Once again, I will explain my concern. Entertainment industries tend to heavily leverage the talent, and untalented outsiders act as a parasite on the revenue stream. The talent doesn't realize this because they are often young and focused intently on their craft. They don't realize how heavily leveraged they are. Kids signing 'bad contracts' and all just proves this point. All Rekrul has done is talked about the SC 2 Association's "good intentions". Only a fool would accept any organization based on their 'intentions'. So I want some more substantial questions answered such as, "How much of the SC 2 revenue pie will the SC 2 Association get?" It's very possible Rekrul and other people do not have this information yet. But answers such as that are paramount in understanding what exactly is going on. And that is all I want to do is find out what is going on. On November 18 2010 15:56 Rekrul wrote:
My post is a general overview in order to put things somewhat in perspective for the people who don't have the common sense and/or knowledge of e-sports to understand. You painted the issue as 'SC 2 Association' or 'slavery' which is laughable. We didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your OP was disjointed because of lack of sleep or something else. On this message forum (like any other message forum), these things tend to happen. If someone is telling me that the SC 2 Association is awesome, I'd like there to be presented facts backing it up. If this SC 2 Association isn't "awesome", then we have a problem. You and Macavity's posts are merely taking random points that strung my original post together out of context and trying to argue them on a plane that has nothing to do with any of the issues at hand in the first place. My posts are framed around questions. In the last post, I nicely asked four simple questions. No one is taking you out of context. I'm quoting you verbatim. It is strange that you are so defensive. If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago. Or perhaps you are unable to. Or unwilling. Again, why make a thread about the SC 2 Association if you don't wish to participate in it? It makes no sense to make a thread about the SC 2 Association and then not answer any questions about it. Instead, your replies have been condescending. To sum up your two follow-up posts... "LOL" and "If I felt like making a comprehensive post about e-sports and it's business side I would have done it long ago." Give me a break. If you are going to make a post telling people what to think, you need to back it up with substance! man, is it ever frustrating to attempt laying out your questions in a clear and concise format, in order to foster intelligent *discussion*, and then have people just plug their ears and yell over you. post secondary education really makes me appreciate thought out arguments. too bad intelligence is a faculty shared by the minority.
Hah, imagine how I felt in my rhetoric class today while peer editing paper drafts. It was horrible. So much for post secondary. XD
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There needs to be a link that goes directly to the history, in order, of all topics started by Rekrul. It would help out TL.
Great read rekrul, thanks again for the post.
PS: To new members of TL trying to bash rekrul, believe it or not (doesn't matter if you don't), rekrul has more information on this stuff than ANY of you guys EVER will.
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but what we really want to know is if we will see ret or huk in an sc2 style proleague which we can bet on
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EPT
