EPTAbout the new Korean SC2 Association - Page 2
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DivinO
United States4796 Posts
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zerglingsfolife
United States1694 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:50 s.a.y wrote: Did any of ex sc1 progamer speak out about team abuse or such matter? Didn't a team get taken to the basement and hit by the coach with a bat or something when they underperformed? Edit: Found it!!! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=25706 #10 damn those threads were golden. | ||
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Broodwich
United States393 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote: While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. Makes sense. KeSPA was out to protect their specific leagues and interests first, and that's not present here. If the SC2 teams are really acting in the best interests of the players, I wouldn't be surprised to see the top Koreans heading to MLG, Dreamhack, etc. to expand sponsorship opportunities and win more prize money. Considering how bad the SC1 houses and contracts are, I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the SC1 turned SC2 team leaders are motivated to make a system that isn't designed to exploit the players. | ||
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Char711
United States862 Posts
So, no, I don't think this new association as needed. Maybe for Koreans, but I think that we've already seen a "free market" sprout up with competing tournaments that all offer a pretty good amount of money -- there are just tons of huge SC2 tournaments out there. Ignoring the fact that SC2 had a total of $1 million in cash prizes for tournaments in just its first two weeks after release would be foolish in this case. Edit: "The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images." I really didn't want to be too confrontational with this, but when I went back and read this quote I was pretty offended. The fact that you could say that rights needed to be violated is an unethical stance at best (as in this combined with the "necessary" bit from before really shows you as putting forth that viewpoint). I'm assuming you didn't mean it in such a brash way, but it certainly doesn't look good. Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals). | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:59 zerglingsfolife wrote: Didn't a team get taken to the basement and hit by the coach with a bat or something when they underperformed? that was by KTF, a loooong time ago in the earlier days of SC, and I'm not sure if it was anything more than a rumor | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Now you're dumbing drama down? Sad, sad times. Nah but seriously it's always good to have the truth spotlighted so the nonsense goes away. | ||
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ket-
97 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
Of course, the cynical side of me just sees it as a move by Gretech to ensure that when large sponsors start sponsoring the teams themselves, it will be harder for them to muscle in on what Gretech thinks is its territory. On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote: I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses. Well if you look at the early histories of pro sports in the West (like baseball, etc) - they were rife with abuse and scandals as well. And to say "MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPa" is a tremendous understatement. MLG isn't even near the point where any of these issues come into play. | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
You're a champ bro. Thanks for the clearification of the topic at hand. | ||
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Char711
United States862 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:11 Zona wrote: I do think the association will learn from the history and mistakes that the previous, pioneering association did. And given the entirely different constituents of the association and which interests it represents, it will likely do things differently. Of course, the cynical side of me just sees it as a move by Gretech to ensure that when large sponsors start sponsoring the teams themselves, it will be harder for them to muscle in on what Gretech thinks is its territory. This pretty much encapsulates all of my thoughts on it, too. | ||
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
Really insightful | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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Falcor
Canada894 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote: I'm sure there have been abuses in the West, too, but can you honestly say it ever happened on such a scale? Because of this, I must deny your base premise of such bad contractual terms as being "necessary" for e-sports to first take hold. MLG hasn't reached the height of KeSPA, but it's sure gotten there without all of the horrible abuses. One of the biggest tournaments for North America in its day(cpl) was constantly being accused of taking advantage of players and not paying out. Which is why back in the day all the major counter strike teams formed a "union" and refused to go to another cpl event. Which eventually led to cpl collapsing(along with a couple other reasons) and being sold to a indian(i believe) company. This was all before mlg was thought of. I think the NA scene is just more diversified in the games it plays. So starcraft players might not know about all the abuse that happened in the Counter Strike community. Such as cpl, managers taking a percent of team winnings etc.(some taking big chunks) | ||
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Innsmouth-Zerg
Austria137 Posts
"were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way." & "Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad." doesn't make sense, also "not only do companies not need to violate players' rights" is _never_ ever a reason for a company to not do the best thing for itself. A company does not have a caution it only has stock holders. "Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good." Or you could call it "free market" without "fixed deals" where the best sponsor gets the best team "It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase." Which also means that teams not inside this "inner circle of teams" will have a harder time increasing there marketing value. Power can be abused where ever it is and this does not sound like the ultimate revelation which is going to make everything better. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27173 Posts
I think this communication will be much easier if there are feet on the ground in Korea, which is why I am hopeful. But I think our presence needs to be felt in this time of development rather than after everything is set up and the parameters are solidified. It is much easier to achieve change in a time of building than it is after a structure is agreed upon, especially in Asian contexts. | ||
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bLuR
Canada625 Posts
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Char711
United States862 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:21 Falcor wrote: One of the biggest tournaments for North America in its day(cpl) was constantly being accused of taking advantage of players and not paying out. Which is why back in the day all the major counter strike teams formed a "union" and refused to go to another cpl event. Which eventually led to cpl collapsing(along with a couple other reasons) and being sold to a indian(i believe) company. This was all before mlg was thought of. I think the NA scene is just more diversified in the games it plays. So starcraft players might not know about all the abuse that happened in the Counter Strike community. Such as cpl, managers taking a percent of team winnings etc.(some taking big chunks) Doesn't this help to prove my point? That was just one part of the North American community and it was ended by a strike! Have you seen that happen to KeSPA? Nope. Fiscal abuse was a big point in my last post, but I'm also pretty sure that, with my admittedly incomplete knowledge, it went farther than that in Korea but didn't so much in North America/the rest of the world (I honestly haven't heard of abuses in Europe. Probably just because you don't hear about stuff there as much, especially with gaming [or at least that's my perception/experience].). | ||
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TelecoM
United States10721 Posts
I love reading you're posts because they are always so insightful and straight to the point / very blunt and honest, Keep up the good work rek! Hope to see you in that GSL booth one day hehe | ||
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Char711
United States862 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:27 Manifesto7 wrote: While I agree that TL isn't really in a place to be involved at the moment, I do think the lines of communication need to be formed and maintained now, rather than later. Over the last ten years communication between us and the Korean scene has been abysmal, unbelievably so. I don't want that to continue to be the case, especially if things develop well enough in Korea that players don't have to look too far afield. Koreans like their insulated scene if they can get away with it. I think this communication will be much easier if there are feet on the ground in Korea, which is why I am hopeful. But I think our presence needs to be felt in this time of development rather than after everything is set up and the parameters are solidified. It is much easier to achieve change in a time of building than it is after a structure is agreed upon, especially in Asian contexts. This is an excellent point. I was actually listening to one of the older Live On 3s (the one that was the first one with Day[9] on it) and they mentioned that a great thing was GOMs international focus. I would really hate for that to go away, since I think it would be detrimental. A "foreign" group like they also mentioned on the show would be great and probably help, but more KeSPA things that could surface with isolation might just hold us back as e-sports starts to become more publicized (but I guess that could, arguably, go into that "professionalism" bit that Wheat talked about in his recent blog posts. I don't think you can apply it to rights, but there is a gap in making it to the mainstream that applies, possibly.). | ||
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BadWithNames
United States441 Posts
"This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst each other to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld. It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase. " I'm sorry we used and abused child labor for maximum profit, we made a board of people so it doesn't happen again. All due respect to some people who work or are in the know in the industry. There are some terrific people that love everything that is gaming e-sports. It's their passion, it's their love. With Broodwar partially in the hands of people who could be defined as sweat shop owners for so long I find it hard to believe that "all is well" with the creation of some panel. Do the children get third party lawyers to protect them? Is this panel actually going to do anything or is it just a place for people like Jaedongs parents to complain to? Time will tell I guess Hoping for the best, expecting the worst. | ||
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