EPTOn November 17 2010 07:36 Rekrul wrote:
The whole point of this organization is not to take the SC2 Korean scene by the balls like Kespa did for SC1, it's to make sure the teams and players are protected and promoted to max potential.
The whole point of this organization is not to take the SC2 Korean scene by the balls like Kespa did for SC1, it's to make sure the teams and players are protected and promoted to max potential.
And why can't teams and players protect and promote themselves? They do in other industries. All this is doing is adding another 'middleman' who will take more of the limited wealth generated by E-Sports.
Great for middlemen. Bad for players. Now there is less money for them.
The fact of the matter is this: in SC1 things were a lot worse for the players than any of you can imagine. I can't go into detail on specifics, but players rights were certainly being violated by terms in the contract which they had no choice to abide by because there was nothing to protect them.
I am not familiar with the South Korean legal system. What are these 'players rights' you are talking about? Can you source them? What legal definition are you referring to when you say 'players rights'?
Were individuals violating contracts? If contracts were violated, the legal system should enforce it. If the legal system doesn't, then that is a problem with the legal system. No association would solve such an issue.
If I am following this correctly, what you are saying is that players signed bad contracts and got taken advantage of.
Things like any prize money earned or revenue generated from event appearances was either somewhat or completely being taken by the sponsors of the teams. The amounts of course varied by teams. Some didn't take much and some took everything. Yes it was bad.
You make it sound as if they were thieves. It sounds like they were doing exactly what the terms of the contract were.
The reason why they could do this is because Kespa was organized by the sponsors and controlled the players. Either the progamer abided by their terms or they didn't get to play.
You make it sound they were not allowed to play Starcraft at all. They could still play Starcraft but not within any KESPA controlled entity.
And while, from a business perspective, the sponsors got more than enough out of marketing from paying X00,000$~equivalent per year to sponsor a team, marketing value is intangible and companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can.
Of course companies will strive to do whatever they can to make as much real money as they can.
So do players.
Heck, who doesn't try to get as much money as possible.
Whether or not turning players into 'slaves' by wringing as much real $ out of them through taking prize money and event appearance pay amongst other things is 'unethical' or not is completely up for debate.
Actually, it isn't. If they voluntarily went into it, they either follow those rules or quit. Comparing a voluntary association to slavery would be a gross distortion.
Remember: the SC1 scene in Korea grew from literally nothing in less than 10 years into a massive industry.
Also remember, South Korea in general has been growing from literally nothing from forty years ago to where they are today with leading industries. The success of Starcraft in South Korea has more to do that it was following the generalized 'growth trend' of the nation and also there was no competition from consoles. In this regard, South Korea reminds me of Japan back in the 1980s.
The rate of growth was phenomenal, and the only reason why this happened was because the sponsors decided to jump in and get involved. If a team originally approached a sponsor and said "hey pay us 400k a year to run our team and we'll wear your logo!" obviously when SC1 in Korea wasn't as big any company would have just laughed at that. Thats why things started off and continued the way they were: Teams had to entice sponsors to sponsor them. So please don't say the sponsors were/are being 'unfair.' It simply had to be that way.
So why the need for an 'association'?
Now, fast forward to present day. The industry in Korea has grown so big that not only do companies not need to violate players' rights, but through news portals and such or players speaking out, it would be suicidal for their images. But, at the same time, the dawn of the SC2 world is a ravenous jungle. Everyone in Korea (players, coaches, sponsors) realize the massive potential to make money.
What are these 'players rights' you keep mentioning? You never define them.
Imagine if there was no sort of unity amongst the players and teams. What would happen?
Competition?
What would happen is the sponsors would have the exact same power over everyone as they did in SC1.
What 'power'? Ironically, the 'power' you are talking about didn't come from any sponsor but from KESPA itself. The last I checked, it was KESPA who was fighting Blizzard, not any sponsor.
Reality is that progamers, managers, coaches, etc. all have no $ and will have to accept deals sooner or later whether they like it or not.
No money? Well, who's fault is that? Can they find no investors? Or have they even bothered to look?
Without any sort of unity sponsors could abuse this 'desperate' state of teams and give them far less than they are worth, which is not good.
The 'worth' is defined by the buyer.
What is seems you are describing is generalized ignorance on the part of the teams and players who are signing bad contracts without them realizing it.
Instead of making any 'association', why don't we educate the teams and players about their options? Business education is the key, not some middleman 'entity' whose existence will just drain more wealth away from the limited pie that is E-Sports.
The fact is that teams and players, if properly educated, would be making more money without any 'association' than with it. However, I am sure many movers and shakers do not want this to be realized.
The industry is too developed, it would be idiotic for the teams not to form some sort of union to prevent this from happening and get what they deserve.
It would be idiotic to form a union. And trust me, they will get what they deserve!
This is where the new association comes in. It was made to help the teams create a fluid unity amongst each other to ensure that teams' and players' rights are upheld.
What ARE these rights?
It will also help teams communicate and work together to make their marketing value increase.
Every industry that unionizes has their marketing value DECREASE. This is actually very good for the foreign scene of SC 2. This means sponsors will have more incentive to invest in E-Sports outside of South Korea. After all, that is all the union is going to do.
If everyone were out for themselves nobody would win here.
Why not? You don't say. You just go on.
Does TL need to be involved in this right now? No. As far as the Korean scene is concerned, TL isn't something they need to care about at the moment. Sure, it generates a lot of interest in the foreign scene and is very good for GOMtv/Blizzard, but in reality just because TL has some non-koreans living in the OGS house doesn't mean anything.
The rates of growth of the Korean scene and the non-Korean scene will determine when sponsored foreign teams like TL or others might want to get involved with the decision making process in an association like this. While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
The SC2 scene is still young. I can definitely see a future where Nazgul/TLAF(orwhomever may be sponsoring the team in the future if TLAF decides to stop) wants to get a lot more involved in the Korean scene/press to help expand the industry in Korea for the good of the foreign scene, TL.net, and the Korean scene (lets face it we all know the fans LOVE seeing non-Koreans do well in Korean tournaments). When that time comes obviously it will happen, so it's pointless for people to just spam posts "TL.net SHOULD BE INVOLVED!"
The rates of growth of the Korean scene and the non-Korean scene will determine when sponsored foreign teams like TL or others might want to get involved with the decision making process in an association like this. While for now it's too early to tell, in my opinion within a year or two we will have LOTS of non-Koreans flying into Korea for tournaments or to live as a professional team, and we will have LOTS of Koreans flying around the world to international events. And then we will need clear lines of communication. But that time is not yet, it's merely beginning.
The SC2 scene is still young. I can definitely see a future where Nazgul/TLAF(orwhomever may be sponsoring the team in the future if TLAF decides to stop) wants to get a lot more involved in the Korean scene/press to help expand the industry in Korea for the good of the foreign scene, TL.net, and the Korean scene (lets face it we all know the fans LOVE seeing non-Koreans do well in Korean tournaments). When that time comes obviously it will happen, so it's pointless for people to just spam posts "TL.net SHOULD BE INVOLVED!"
I'm still waiting for some legal definition of what this thing called 'players rights' are. I'm not familiar with the South Korean legal system, and I am anxious to learn about this.
For now, TL.net or any other foreign team for that matter doesn't have any real reason to get involved. For now, we just have to let the Koreans do their thing in Korea and international teams/tournaments do their thing outside Korea and all do our best as fans, players, casters, sponsors (whichever the hell you are, because if you're reading this you're one of those LOL) to watch, talk about, and promote the scene as much as possible.
Yes. It would be ridiculous for a foreign team to get involved in such an organization when there is more money to be made by being outside it.
I hope that clarified things.
I think you might have done the opposite.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 17 2010 12:46 Poyo wrote:
Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road.
Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road.
Two problems with the above.
One, it is very wrong to compare something like the NFL to... this. Sports (like American football) brings in so much money, such a ridiculous amount, that it is literally impossible to own any team and lose money. Every player gets money in the millions. The last I checked, E-Sports players do not get money anywhere near that amount. Worse, this money is made primarily through winning certain tournaments. The point is that while all the non-players of the NFL are making tons and tons of money, the players are also making tons of money to become super wealthy. Being a professional sports player often means one is wealthy. Being a professional E-Sports player often means one is poor. There is very little money in E-Sports in comparison to real sports. This means any 'union' will just suck up much of what little money there is.
Two, the film industry in America is a complete disaster. It is so bad that movies are now no longer made in Hollywood. These unions are driving business away from places like California. Much of California's financial woes (and we are talking beyond Greece here) is due to these unions. So if you love Starcraft 2, the last thing you want is any film industry type union for it.
