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On November 17 2010 08:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals). I'm not taking a stance either way. What happened happened and hopefully won't happen again. I'm merely saying that you can't really lean one way or another when talking about if it originally helped the growth of the industry or not. I mean, if you look at it from the sponsors point of view they invested into the industry and made it so popular and gave these nerdy kids who sat around playing games all a chance to become famous and make lots of money. You can't really say "THATS SO UNFAIR!" for a sponsor to sign a 100,000$/year contract with a player that has clauses that say 50% of prize money go back to the sponsor. Of course from a fanboy perspective one can't help but think "OMG he worked so hard and earned it he should get the $$!!" but that's not how the world works.
To me, this seems sort of similar to the UFC. The UFC signs fighters to restrictive contracts and basically owns the fighters. The bottom tier guys have no leverage and aren't making much at all and can be cut after 1 loss. That said, without the work of Dana White and the UFC over the past 10 years mixed martial arts would just be guys fighting in local shows making nothing, and the UFC deserves the right to make a profit for all the capital and effort they put in to making MMA a legit sport in the US.
Certainly the SC1 players are treated worse than the MMA fighters, but it's analogous in that without the sponsors no one would be getting paid out of SC1.
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and rek has spoken. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Nice read Rek. Should we start one up for CF? (it's "Bisu") ^_^
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On November 17 2010 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:59 lastmotion wrote:
it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
Rek is the sponsor
lololol
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United States33584 Posts
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Dan strikes again. Well said man.
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Player unions or worker unions are to be expected eventually. E-sports will hopefully model itself upon other successful industries, professional sports or the film industry.
Agents, teams/studios, players/actors its all pretty similar and, in my humble opinion, its only a matter of time before E-sports goes down that road.
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So... when are you going to be in charge of the whole she-bang?
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On November 17 2010 08:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:02 Char711 wrote:
Edit 2: There is, in addition, your statement that the sponsors did nothing unfair at the time while you explicitly mention them taking the lion's share of earnings. I don't think I really have to get into how that, too, would be deemed "unethical" by pretty much anyone in this day and age (or at least those adhering to "progressive" Western ideals). I'm not taking a stance either way. What happened happened and hopefully won't happen again. I'm merely saying that you can't really lean one way or another when talking about if it originally helped the growth of the industry or not. I mean, if you look at it from the sponsors point of view they invested into the industry and made it so popular and gave these nerdy kids who sat around playing games all a chance to become famous and make lots of money. You can't really say "THATS SO UNFAIR!" for a sponsor to sign a 100,000$/year contract with a player that has clauses that say 50% of prize money go back to the sponsor. Of course from a fanboy perspective one can't help but think "OMG he worked so hard and earned it he should get the $$!!" but that's not how the world works.
How can I not say that's unfair? This practice would be looked down upon and possibly punished severely in basically every other part of the world that is capable of hosting e-sports (AKA "First World," or, if you don't play word politics, the "Global North"). It is a misleading contract at best. But, if I'm reading that correctly, do you mean guaranteed $100,000 a year with prize money on top? Because that's pretty good and can be seen as a trade of security/guaranteed money for the possibility of those higher tournament earnings. However, it goes against the idea of the very beginning of e-sports that we were talking about as that was not a salary given in the very beginning and was/is certainly not the average. We're not talking about the five guys at the top, but rather the average pro-gamer (haha, yes, slightly oxymoron-ish there, but we're still not talking about "lots of money" for the vast majority of those "nerdy kids").
I still don't think you've answered the strongest part of my argument at all. I refuse to believe you can say that something that took such obvious advantage of people can be justified solely by the fact that it made an industry bigger and developed it. By your logic there are too many horrible labor practices and inequities in the world that would just be further perpetuated based on the logic that it improves a country (supposedly, and a highly contentious topic in international relations) or industry (rather the same here, depending on the situation). Largely, it is just profit for the people at the top. Letting the fact that it made e-sports more visible cloud your judgment is unacceptable: you have to consider the wider implications of what you're saying here.
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I can't believe i missed out on meeting you at blizzcon
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Thanks for giving us more insight, appreciate it.
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On November 17 2010 09:57 Mutaahh wrote:
Starcraft 2 should become what starcraft 1 was in korea, only starcraft 2 should involve the entire world.
With a better tournament for worlds best starcraft 2 player (not like WCG which sucks)
world e-sports need that to happen, every game would benefit from that
ah the dreams...
dont kid yourself it will never happen in the near future that people in the west accept esports.
and SCII is nto a miracle that will solve this "problem" mb when you and me are "old" esports here is accepted.
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thanks for the clarifaction 
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I'm relatively new to TL, but I'm beginning to grow an appreciation for Rekrul posts.
Sounds like a great idea to form some sort of union for players' rights. I keep hearing whisperings of what goes on in terms of how players are treated in the BW scene and I hope that doesn't transfer to SC2. I also hope kespa dies once and for all. There doesn't seem to be much good coming out them. imo, BW would benefit from having them gone for good.
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Korean culture is way different than western culture
Life of an entertainer in Korea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jang_Ja-yeon
of note, the manager that abused and pimped her out got 1 year, no one else was punished at all.
There is absolutely no doubt that SC:BW teams probably beat, didn't let players eat, forced them to practice extremely long hours etc. It's practically the most obvious thing in the world.
Not to say America or any other country is better, it's just a reality of the situation and the fact it is somewhat easier to pull off such things in Korea in certain cases / companies. I'm personally really glad the players/teams have a second chance and hopefully it's better than SC1, either way if foreign teams set up shop it will be fine as I can just cheer for them.
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On November 17 2010 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 08:59 lastmotion wrote:
it's really sad to imagine a BW player who practices for hours living under horrible living conditions, sweats blood & tears, triumphs against all odds against beastly players, drops out of school for this one dream, just to have your prize money taken away by sponsors. That's seriously messed up. I wonder why Rek is unable to describe details?
Rek is the sponsor
it all makes sense now
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Thank you for that. You always have the well informed point of view.
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Can't wait for the day the foreign teams will make a similar association . One in north america, one in europe... Then we know we have made it far!
Good read btw, thanks to the info.
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Thanks for a great read! In the past, I was often unsure whether Kespa was doing its job right and what was going on behind the scenes. But I preferred to support the BW players in whatever they were doing and are still doing now.
Though, you putting everything into a harsh perspective hurts but that is to be expected. Hey, Rek, I want to ask, do you honestly think BW can still survive with or without Kespa and prosper along with SC2? Or are we seeing only SC2 in the future? *shrugs*
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Good read, thnx for the info
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EPT
