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On November 15 2010 14:54 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:51 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:46 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:42 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:35 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:31 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:27 Pleiades wrote:
I could say the same thing about ignorance of not looking at cover/packaging. I said earlier, if you don't agree to it, don't use it. If you don't agree to that either, take it to court or ask your law maker to change it. Complaining here won't do anything. Im quite happy to take it to court since I know that US laws dont apply here. From what I can piece together from various sites, it isn't as cut and dry in the UK as you would like to believe, either. It seems to just be more legal opinions without any case law. You think you know more about my countrys laws than me? Nice try. We have very strong data protection and consumer protection laws and thats just one european country I know for a fact that there are others that you wouldnt get anywhere with. I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs. I didn't realize that living in your country made you an expert on your country's laws. As it so happens, I do know a bit about the legal profession, though I am not an expert nor do I know much about contract law. What I do know is that by scanning Google (including your country's Intellectual Property Office's official website) I was able to find that your government is much more ambivalent about what is and is not legal than you are. I am undone an american knows more about the law and my consumer rights because of "google". Unbelievable. While you are googling how about you stop by the office of fair trading. I didn't say that I knew more, I said that living in your country does not make you an expert and that your own government is not being as definite as you are-- I repeat, I went to your country's Intellectual Property Office site and read what they had to say about EULA, which was a ~150 page report that was not nearly as certain of the position as you claim it is. I'm not telling you your rights, I'm just saying that I'm not going to declare you infallible on British law just because you are a citizen and I am not. OK tell me what the national speed limit is for an A road in the UK without looking it up or how old you have to be before you are allowd to drink alcohol here. Sometimes actually living in the country means you know more about it.
No idea what the first one is, but I believe the 2nd is 18. Now, without looking, tell me what a logical fallacy is.
Because, last time I checked, knowing basic traffic law and somehow picking up intellectual property law on the street were a little bit different-- and as you so helpfully pointed out for me, I could look up either of those laws on the internet, so it really doesn't matter whether I live there or not.
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On November 15 2010 14:53 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:
Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. . List a few of those, please.
Type in EULA and illegal or court case and you will have more information than you need.
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On November 15 2010 14:57 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:54 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:51 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:46 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:42 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:35 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:31 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:27 Pleiades wrote:
I could say the same thing about ignorance of not looking at cover/packaging. I said earlier, if you don't agree to it, don't use it. If you don't agree to that either, take it to court or ask your law maker to change it. Complaining here won't do anything. Im quite happy to take it to court since I know that US laws dont apply here. From what I can piece together from various sites, it isn't as cut and dry in the UK as you would like to believe, either. It seems to just be more legal opinions without any case law. You think you know more about my countrys laws than me? Nice try. We have very strong data protection and consumer protection laws and thats just one european country I know for a fact that there are others that you wouldnt get anywhere with. I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs. I didn't realize that living in your country made you an expert on your country's laws. As it so happens, I do know a bit about the legal profession, though I am not an expert nor do I know much about contract law. What I do know is that by scanning Google (including your country's Intellectual Property Office's official website) I was able to find that your government is much more ambivalent about what is and is not legal than you are. I am undone an american knows more about the law and my consumer rights because of "google". Unbelievable. While you are googling how about you stop by the office of fair trading. I didn't say that I knew more, I said that living in your country does not make you an expert and that your own government is not being as definite as you are-- I repeat, I went to your country's Intellectual Property Office site and read what they had to say about EULA, which was a ~150 page report that was not nearly as certain of the position as you claim it is. I'm not telling you your rights, I'm just saying that I'm not going to declare you infallible on British law just because you are a citizen and I am not. OK tell me what the national speed limit is for an A road in the UK without looking it up or how old you have to be before you are allowd to drink alcohol here. Sometimes actually living in the country means you know more about it. No idea what the first one is, but I believe the 2nd is 18. Now, without looking, tell me what a logical fallacy is. Because, last time I checked, knowing basic traffic law and somehow picking up intellectual property law on the street were a little bit different-- and as you so helpfully pointed out for me, I could look up either of those laws on the internet, so it really doesn't matter whether I live there or not. Wrong you can consume alcohol here at any age you just cant purchase it below the age of 18. Knowing your consumer rights is about as basic as it gets matey.
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On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 14:35 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:31 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:27 Pleiades wrote:
I could say the same thing about ignorance of not looking at cover/packaging. I said earlier, if you don't agree to it, don't use it. If you don't agree to that either, take it to court or ask your law maker to change it. Complaining here won't do anything. Im quite happy to take it to court since I know that US laws dont apply here. From what I can piece together from various sites, it isn't as cut and dry in the UK as you would like to believe, either. It seems to just be more legal opinions without any case law. You think you know more about my countrys laws than me? Nice try. We have very strong data protection and consumer protection laws and thats just one european country I know for a fact that there are others that you wouldnt get anywhere with. I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs. You have gotten refunds for many games simply because companies dont like to deal with sour customers. They would rather just take the loss of having to sell the game as used than argue with a customer. It isnt really because of consumer rights. I also fail to believe what you are saying, as they provide a very clear indication of what you will have to agree to, and that you will need to get a battle.net account with its own terms of use agreement. They even provide a way to see EXACTLY what you will agree to by giving a link to the EULA. To me, that just comes down to the consumer being willfully ignorant. I also like that you arent even citing any sources for all of this, yet claim it as fact. I know that the UK has some pretty crazy consumer protection laws, but I dont think they would protect you this far since nothing is hidden. No wrong I have been refused before stating my statutory rights and its at that point that they know they have to comply with the law. Its not clear at all if the EULA agreement isnt clearly stated on the product. Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. Blizzards EULA breaks our data protection laws for one and cannot be overridden the same goes for consumer rights.
When the customer starts arguing, companies cave. Simple as that. The fact that you think its law leads me to believe you are confused.
EDIT
Wrong you can consume alcohol here at any age you just cant purchase it below the age of 16. Knowing your consumer rights is about as basic as it gets matey.
Which obviously explains why there is a 150 page document just about EULA's.
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On November 15 2010 14:59 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:53 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:
Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. . List a few of those, please. Type in EULA and illegal or court case and you will have more information than you need.
We don't want to know about other cases. We just want to know about your "personal" cases, aka. first hand experience, about legal cases with EULA.
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On November 15 2010 14:59 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:53 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:
Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. . List a few of those, please. Type in EULA and illegal or court case and you will have more information than you need.
Interesting, because the entire first two pages of results (before things started getting off-topic a bit) were just forums or websites asking whether or not EULAs are legal, and were mostly answered in much the same way this thread has been-- by laypersons with no real experience on either side.
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Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties.
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On November 15 2010 15:01 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:59 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:53 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:
Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. . List a few of those, please. Type in EULA and illegal or court case and you will have more information than you need. We don't want to know about other cases. We just want to know about your "personal" cases, aka. first hand experience, about legal cases with EULA.
Asking personal information about liquid members is against the forum rules.
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On November 15 2010 14:29 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:27 Pleiades wrote:
I could say the same thing about ignorance of not looking at cover/packaging. I said earlier, if you don't agree to it, don't use it. If you don't agree to that either, take it to court or ask your law maker to change it. Complaining here won't do anything. Im quite happy to take it to court since I know that US laws dont apply here.
EULAs arent pieces of legislature.
You can just as well claim theyre unconstitutional or whatnot in a US court.
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On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote:
Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties.
I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA.
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On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote:
Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties.
I dont know just get annoyed when US companies think their laws apply internationally and got involved when people quote EULAs like they are shira law.
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On November 15 2010 15:03 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:01 Veldril wrote:On November 15 2010 14:59 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:53 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:
Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. . List a few of those, please. Type in EULA and illegal or court case and you will have more information than you need. We don't want to know about other cases. We just want to know about your "personal" cases, aka. first hand experience, about legal cases with EULA. Asking personal information about liquid members is against the forum rules.
Well, since you claimed that you involves in EULA legal cases, you need to backup your claim with proofs. I don't want your name or any personal information, just tell me your experience with it. Or else, people will just think you made things up for the sake of arguing (which is what I feel right now).
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Okay thank you guys for the clarification 
Please go on
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On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote:
Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties. I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries since you cant blindly agree to it. Sorry for being clumsy.
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On November 15 2010 15:08 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:03 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:01 Veldril wrote:On November 15 2010 14:59 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:53 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 14:52 Vimsey wrote:
Thats before I get into the many legal EULA cases that have pointed out the how poorly written they are. . List a few of those, please. Type in EULA and illegal or court case and you will have more information than you need. We don't want to know about other cases. We just want to know about your "personal" cases, aka. first hand experience, about legal cases with EULA. Asking personal information about liquid members is against the forum rules. Well, since you claimed that you involves in EULA legal cases, you need to backup your claim with proofs. I don't want your name or any personal information, just tell me your experience with it. Or else, people will just think you made things up for the sake of arguing (which is what I feel right now).
If i give a personal case and proof i have to give my name and court details dont I. :/
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On November 15 2010 15:10 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote:
Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties. I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries. Sorry for being clumsy.
Why can you not read it before purchase? It is available online and the box tells you where to go to see it online... it even says you need a bnet account and an active internet connection.
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On November 15 2010 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote:
Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties. I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries. Sorry for being clumsy. Why can you not read it before purchase? It is available online and the box tells you where to go to see it online... it even says you need a bnet account and an active internet connection.
You cant do that it has to be on the product you cant say the rules were posted in the vorgon halls for 50 years on the internet. At least in this country in yours maybe not.
Edit if you purchase it online then you have a point.
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On November 14 2010 17:02 Gonodactylus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 16:59 lao wrote:
your argument is not a legal one. starcraft and starcraft 2 (and all videogames really) are licensed to the end-user. you do not truly BUY the game. you "license" the game for personal use. this is made explicit in every single end-user agreement you will ever see for professional proprietary non open source software.
end of discussion. This doesn't even matter. You create new intellectual property. Blizzard has to claim rights over this through their EULA, which they do. If you were right they wouldn't even have to claim this in their EULA. Also, I think licensing and EULA's are illegal under law. You buy a physical disc but you get tricked once you open the box and have to agree to something you never knew about when you made the purchase. But again, corporations win always vs normal people because the laws are rigged, so yeah it doesn't matter. End of discussion.
lol like 20 pages ago.
I found this hilarious.
this post =
"I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter. End of discussion."
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And even if it meant that you could somehow "know a bit more" about copyright laws particular to the country you reside in, that just means you have knowledge of them by virtue of some preexisting circumstance. Voila, somebody reads your nation's law, and they have that same knowledge. Please try to be more reasonable with your tone and actually use the facts [specific case law, specific lines of regulation, precedent, etc] instead of strange tangential points that seem to imply "I live in this country, and therefore I'm right."
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On November 15 2010 15:16 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote:
Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties. I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries. Sorry for being clumsy. Why can you not read it before purchase? It is available online and the box tells you where to go to see it online... it even says you need a bnet account and an active internet connection. You cant do that it has to be on the product you cant say the rules were posted in the vorgon halls for 50 years on the internet. At least in this country in yours maybe not. Edit if you purchase it online then you have a point.
I would like to see a box of medication in your country if such things have to be visible on the outside of the box... because here in america we can have pages of information/warnings/other stuff that is required, and there aint no way in hell you are fitting that on the outside of a box.
I would also like to see the rule that says the entirety of the agreement has to be on the product.
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EPT
