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Forum Index > SC2 General
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thehitman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1105 Posts
November 02 2010 22:40 GMT
#41
Great job, keep up the good work.

Nice info, Zerg and Protoss are more balanced now, though Terran still dominate, though I feel it their domination may reduce with some time, though we'll just have to see.
Balance is going better for now and hopefully it will only improve.
crun
Profile Joined April 2010
Poland30 Posts
November 02 2010 22:45 GMT
#42
nice, thanks a lot!
keep it updated please.
Ganondorf
Profile Joined April 2010
Italy600 Posts
November 02 2010 22:47 GMT
#43
Balance discussions will always be biased in some way. I got pointed to the Starcraft Bible thread today.

Look how it went on bw, the races took turns to dominate, depending on the metagame and on pro gamers finding new builds and ways to use their units efficiently.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
November 02 2010 22:49 GMT
#44
On November 03 2010 05:52 Itrees wrote:
I think that's an interesting assertion. I don't see how wanting to see each race get a fair shake at the highest levels of play makes me a worse player. Maybe what you're saying is dangerous is assuming that race distributions in tournament results reflect the power of the races?


yeah, that's what i was saying, sorry it wasn't more clear.
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-02 22:51:10
November 02 2010 22:49 GMT
#45
terrans dominance is long gone, not sure why the stats show what they do but maybe its just the # of players per race.
ensis
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany340 Posts
November 02 2010 22:51 GMT
#46
fuck i love you! thanks a lot.

omg terran players till are just clearly better than anyone in this completely balanced game!
this is Day[9] Daily #266 where we learn to be a better substractor- - - - - - - - - - - - -even Chuck Norris watches Day[9] Daily - - - - - - - TL ban policy sucks ratsass
Bull-Demon
Profile Joined January 2003
United States582 Posts
November 02 2010 22:53 GMT
#47
On November 03 2010 07:47 Ganondorf wrote:
Balance discussions will always be biased in some way. I got pointed to the Starcraft Bible thread today.

Look how it went on bw, the races took turns to dominate, depending on the metagame and on pro gamers finding new builds and ways to use their units efficiently.


I think that's definitely true for a game that hasn't been patched in years. But for a game that is being adjusted, it makes sense to compare the sharp differences a patch might bring.

It definitely looks like the terran "sky is falling!" commotion was premature. Look how well the gsl terrans adjusted.
~_~
Fluxx
Profile Joined July 2008
Netherlands58 Posts
November 02 2010 23:04 GMT
#48
On November 03 2010 07:53 Bull-Demon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2010 07:47 Ganondorf wrote:
Balance discussions will always be biased in some way. I got pointed to the Starcraft Bible thread today.

Look how it went on bw, the races took turns to dominate, depending on the metagame and on pro gamers finding new builds and ways to use their units efficiently.


I think that's definitely true for a game that hasn't been patched in years. But for a game that is being adjusted, it makes sense to compare the sharp differences a patch might bring.

It definitely looks like the terran "sky is falling!" commotion was premature. Look how well the gsl terrans adjusted.


They didnt adjust at all.
If you actually look at the amount of zergs that entered the tournament.
The win percentage rate of Zergs till the RO16.
Then at the matches where the zergs did get knocked out.
End that with the actual players in the matches, you will see that a big percentage of the games of zerg against a non mirror has been won by zerg.

Out of the top my head, we have had the best zergs faces eachothers off in a ZvZ matches. Five?
Then Foxer destroyed 2 zergs. One of them was Fruitdealer, in which both of the games Fruitdealer didnt even bother to scout.
And Boxer killed off an unknown zerg in the RO64.
Instigata
Profile Joined April 2004
United States546 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-02 23:16:46
November 02 2010 23:12 GMT
#49
I think it only really matters in big money tournaments such as GOM or MLG and maybe that one that Huk played in to skip GSL 2. I never really heard of 90% of those people. Difference in effort and preparation when people are playing for a big wad of cash or a paycheck rather than just a fun casual tourney.

EDIT: Oh and Blizzcon too.
Also does anyone know at these big events where the players are in the same room do they play online or some special blizzard setup LAN?
SC2 was doomed from the start.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
November 02 2010 23:34 GMT
#50
On November 03 2010 08:12 Instigata wrote:
I think it only really matters in big money tournaments such as GOM or MLG and maybe that one that Huk played in to skip GSL 2. I never really heard of 90% of those people. Difference in effort and preparation when people are playing for a big wad of cash or a paycheck rather than just a fun casual tourney.

I dont think these are actually a good measure of balance at all. Firstly you can get someone ridiculously good pulling ridiculous upsets in fruitdealer.
And second of all we get pretty much clutch people vs people who choke- Iron for example who always does very well in the comfort of his own home but choked in both GSLs. Or Zenio in GSL 1 who apparently was #1 oGs player in practice but did horribly in the tourney. Playing live for a boatload of money includes a bit different set of skills then pure starcraft 2 strategy.


EDIT: Oh and Blizzcon too.
Also does anyone know at these big events where the players are in the same room do they play online or some special blizzard setup LAN?

It's mostly online, but for blizzcon the players were not online during their games(i added em and checked^^). I'm guessing blizzcon had lan or dedicated server.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Gomas
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Poland312 Posts
November 02 2010 23:38 GMT
#51
SjoW is such a beast. He basically wins like 75% of stuff he takes part in. If he improves his mechanics I can see him winning 100% :D
Viruuus
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany451 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 09:22:25
November 03 2010 09:20 GMT
#52
I think this really is the best way to measure balance, together with watching single high level BOx games, like we have them in GSL. The second way is really hard to do scientifically, because everyone will be biased, and you have to take so much into account when trying to figure out balance problems while watching a game where you might miss oh so many tiny mistakes.

The way the OP is doing it on the other hand is an easy way to avoid mistakes, since you just do the numbers. Of course there is room for interpretation, and correlated numbers like racial percentages of players, but it is still a very good estimator for balance overall.
Also, for high level tournaments the percentage of overall race useage does not matter much. And people who argue about including statistics of how many mirrors there were etc, thats plain stupid since the effect on the overall result will converge to zero when the number of tournaments included gets higher.

So this might be important for a single tournament, but not for larger databases like this one.
And the guy who argued for that in GSL, got wtfpwned by OP anyways :D
Lee Jae Dong fighting!!!
rocketboy77
Profile Joined July 2010
171 Posts
November 06 2010 22:34 GMT
#53
Not a big deal, but I count 10 Zerg firsts in that list. Also, a couple of the tournaments (GamerBase UK and Craftcup US) have multiple firsts listed.
HollowLord
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3862 Posts
November 06 2010 22:38 GMT
#54
Interesting to note are the massive number of Terran silver medals. Helps the theory that the reason there are so many dominating Terrans is that they are just more Terran players in general.
dota 2 stream #noskill #feed #noob twitch.tv/dmcredgrave
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 17:22:09
November 08 2010 17:20 GMT
#55
updatezor
looks like Terrans( with the help of Foxer no doubt) are quickly adjusting to the patch changes to return to their former glory.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
November 08 2010 17:20 GMT
#56
On November 07 2010 07:38 HollowLord wrote:
Interesting to note are the massive number of Terran silver medals. Helps the theory that the reason there are so many dominating Terrans is that they are just more Terran players in general.

umm in no way does it do so.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
JJEOS
Profile Joined September 2010
United States127 Posts
November 08 2010 17:21 GMT
#57
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss.
If at first you don't suceed, deny you were ever apart of it.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 17:24:37
November 08 2010 17:22 GMT
#58
On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss.

for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true.
Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
rattus22
Profile Joined April 2010
United States68 Posts
November 08 2010 19:35 GMT
#59
Did you get the first GSL? I didn't see it in your spoiler list.
SchAmToo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1141 Posts
November 08 2010 19:38 GMT
#60
Very interesting. I wonder when we'll see the six dragons of Terran =D
twitch.tv/schamtoo | twitter.com/schamtoo
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