|
On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated.
I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious.
EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end.
Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce.
Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa.
Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK.
There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad.
|
All statistical collections of data have some sort of tell about them. It may be that terran is OP, or that zerg/protoss are UP. It may be a tell that the metagame at the point of these tournaments is T favored. It could also mean that terrans overpopulate the tournament scene. Why do so many people play terran? Why are terran finishing in the top 3 so often? Why are terran able to adapt so quickly to new patches?
Regardless of what tiny window these statistics show, it is evidence that race distribution is not balanced on some level. It may not be the end all indicator of terrans being OP in individual matchups, but it is at least an indicator that the terran part of the equation offers more to players than the zerg and protoss counterparts.
|
On October 27 2010 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
P missing a few first places but I don't see protoss being weak although it seems like nobody is using colossus anymore for no apparent reason in PvZ.
Like I saw nightend vs ret and he lost 1-2 without getting storm or colossus vs hydra roach it was like wtf. (won when ret threw away too many units to get broodlords to have them owned by blink)
PvT is also pigenholed into colossus stalker vs marauder viking medivac now which is just a micro war which is kinda gay. If they buff P early vT and buff T lategame v P like they want to maybe it will be more interesting.
omg if the macro of the players is = it turns into a micro war how fucking interesting.
|
|
|
People should just be able to build the unit that counters that other unit, then win, duh
|
On November 09 2010 04:35 rattus22 wrote:
Did you get the first GSL? I didn't see it in your spoiler list.
this is post 1.1.2
|
On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad.
Well if you look at 1.1.2 as an isolated event and 1.1.2 has brought us balance we will soon see more zergs emerge. This is what this list is for to keep track of whether that will happen.
Unfortunately however just the opposite is happening- with each update terrans become more and more dominant.
|
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
|
On November 09 2010 06:32 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad. Well if you look at 1.1.2 as an isolated event and 1.1.2 has brought us balance we will soon see more zergs emerge. This is what this list is for to keep track of whether that will happen. Unfortunately however just the opposite is happening- with each update terrans become more and more dominant.
You're apparently not understanding anything I'm saying.
On November 09 2010 06:37 aepal wrote:
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
This, there are simply are more higher level Terran's than there are other races. Especially when you inculde every weekly EU tournament which 60% of the players are Terran's.
|
On November 09 2010 06:37 aepal wrote:
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
Youre wrong. Firstly, overall protoss differs from terran by less then 0.2%. In diamond there are more protoss then terran. Not only that, but it gets better, here's the amount of races present in GGnet DB:
GGnet DB:
1489 Zerg
1493 Protoss
1491 terran
As you can see teh amount of people per racce that enter tournaments is more or less even.
Out of curiousity heres a sample of tLPD:
Tlnet DB:
128 Protoss
153 Terran
114 Zerg
|
On November 09 2010 07:03 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 06:32 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad. Well if you look at 1.1.2 as an isolated event and 1.1.2 has brought us balance we will soon see more zergs emerge. This is what this list is for to keep track of whether that will happen. Unfortunately however just the opposite is happening- with each update terrans become more and more dominant. You're apparently not understanding anything I'm saying.
Well, there was another way in which i could interpret what you said but since it was ridiculously stupid and already addressed in this, and many otehr, threads i decided to give you some credit.
However what i said is a sort of an axiom so i think i got everythign covered tehre. Its a really simple concept.
If the game is indeed balanced well see Z/P winrate going up.
|
On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad.
Here's where that argument falls apart. Let's say the worst case of race representation ends up being 70% terran and 30% other in Europe every week. If we ONLY have results from the worst case, then we should see medal distribution approach ~70% terran and ~30% other. This is how the data currently looks.
However, this data takes into account other sources as well, which have distributions of less than 70% terran. Even then, Europe probably, on average, has terran representation less than 70%. Even in the list you provided, they only account for ~55%. This means that we should see a distribution of medals that approaches a number (much) less than 70%, closer to weighted averages of race distribution over all tournaments involved.
All that being said, there has to be a tell of inbalance by the incredible number of terrans which make it into high level play. Even if each match may seem balanced, there are probably underlying factors which cause unbalance in the metagame as a whole.
|
errrr....
i dont understand this at all.
what are the +?
is this supposed to be before 1.1.2, and the plus signs are after 1.1.2?
|
On November 09 2010 09:39 Subversion wrote:
errrr....
i dont understand this at all.
what are the +?
is this supposed to be before 1.1.2, and the plus signs are after 1.1.2?
I believe the first number is the total wins so far after patch 1.1.2, and the number after + is the additional wins between OP updating his post (not between patch).
If you click on the second bottom spoiler in the post, that was the first time he was tallying the number for after the patch released.
|
On November 09 2010 07:55 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad. Here's where that argument falls apart. Let's say the worst case of race representation ends up being 70% terran and 30% other in Europe every week. If we ONLY have results from the worst case, then we should see medal distribution approach ~70% terran and ~30% other. This is how the data currently looks. However, this data takes into account other sources as well, which have distributions of less than 70% terran. Even then, Europe probably, on average, has terran representation less than 70%. Even in the list you provided, they only account for ~55%. This means that we should see a distribution of medals that approaches a number (much) less than 70%, closer to weighted averages of race distribution over all tournaments involved. All that being said, there has to be a tell of inbalance by the incredible number of terrans which make it into high level play. Even if each match may seem balanced, there are probably underlying factors which cause unbalance in the metagame as a whole.
Not exactly. I don't watch those tournaments so I don't know who is competing. Just looking at the top 3 of winners isn't proving anything. If someone put in the time to look at lets say MLG Dallas and they counted the W/L's of the Top 32 maybe even Top 16 to get an even level of skill then it might be something worth looking at. But when you look at the top 3 from various tournaments you don't know who played in that tournament. Were all the top players from all 3 races represented? Maybe; maybe not, but just looking at it and saying one race is OP is retarded and wrong.
|
On November 09 2010 09:51 biskit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 09:39 Subversion wrote:
errrr....
i dont understand this at all.
what are the +?
is this supposed to be before 1.1.2, and the plus signs are after 1.1.2? I believe the first number is the total wins so far after patch 1.1.2, and the number after + is the additional wins between OP updating his post (not between patch). If you click on the second bottom spoiler in the post, that was the first time he was tallying the number for after the patch released.
oh ok cool, thanks. i think that would be way easier to understand if the + numbers were in brackets.
like 41 (+21)
|
I'm not surprised Protoss is winning less considering that they've been nerfed every single patch since the beta came out.
|
Impressive T performance.
|
SC2 is shaping to be just like SC1 with Protoss getting the least wins out of all three races  we want our own NaDa and co
|
On November 09 2010 12:01 Gudeldar wrote:
I'm not surprised Protoss is winning less considering that they've been nerfed every single patch since the beta came out.
this.
should expect a nerf on protoss' late game vT...just following Blizz's trend in their patches
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
