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Hope i didn't miss anything.
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41 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/common/gold.png) +21
31 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/common/silver.png) +11
9 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/common/bronze.png) +3
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12 +3
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9 +0
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+ Show Spoiler [1st update] + 20 +9 20 +9 6 +3 9 +0 11 +4 2 +1 9 +4 7 +0 3 +0
+ Show Spoiler [first batch 27.10] +
+ Show Spoiler +DSRack LAN 1. SjoW 2. Socke 3. Naama DSRack SGS 1. Socke 2. Naama 3. SjoW MLG 1. IdrA 2. SeleCt 3. HuK Blizzcon 1. Genius 2. Loner 3. WhiteRa Wolf Cup 12 1. TT1 2. Levin Wolf Cup 11 1. Zelniq 2. Ddoro CraftCup 10 1. SjoW 2. DieStar CraftCup 11 1. SjoW 2. DieStar CraftCup 12 1. Tarson 2. Naugrim CraftCup 13 1. Naugrim 2. MaNa CraftCup 14 1. DeathAngel 2. Nerchio CraftCup 15 1. BratOK 2. ret Gosucoaching 12 1. ret 2. greatman Go4SC2 US 1. greatman 2. Killer Go4SC2 49 1. DarKFoRcE 2. Tarson Go4SC2 48 1. MaNa 2. RogaloS Go4Sc2 47 1. GoOdy 2. LaLuSh Zotac 28 1. Kas 2. Ciara Zotac 27 1. DIMAGA 2. Tarson Close Combat 17 1. Bratok 2. GoOdy 3. DarKFoRcE Close Combat 16 1. OutSide 2. HasuObs 3. GoOdy Close Combat 15 1. BratOk 2. GoOdy 3. WhiteRa Competo 11 1. Tefel 2. Jimpo Competo 10 1. Bly 2. Bischu Cyborg SC2 Inside 1. Socke 2. Voshix UPD 31.10 Zotac Cup #29 1. Kas 2. Tarson Go4SC2 Cup #51 1. Sjow 2. Strelok MSI EG Masters 1. HuK 2. Slush 3. LZGamer GamerBase UK 1. SjoW 1. Lau 1. zion CraftCup 1. Tarson 2. Bly CraftCup US 1. Levin 1. KTr Viking Cup 1. Naama 2. Lalush CraftCup Thermaltake 1 1. Mana 2. allaboutyou CraftCup Thermaltake 2 1. Fenix 2. Kas EST 4players.de 1. BratOk 2. inuh 3. ClouD EPS France 1. Sarens 2. Aures 3. Tuzer Go4SC2 50 1. Slider 2. ClouD Go4SC2 US 2 1. Fenix 2. Greatman UPD 08.11 Go4Sc2 3 1. Killer 2. dde Competo 1. Kas 2. Diestar CraftCup thermaltake 3 1. Jimpo 2. Aristeo Close Combat 18 1. Moonan 2. Tarson 3. Goody WolfCup 13 1. Fenix 2. TT1 Go4SC2 NA October 1. Drewbie 2. KilleR Go4SC2 NA 4 1. Killer 2. AcerGameGMMA Go4SC2 52 1. Kas 2. Madfrog Gosucoaching 13 1. Kawaiirice 2. Painuser Undeniably Gamer 1. Sjow 2. Catz SC2 Inside 2 1. Goody 2. Kas CraftCup Lite 8 1. dske 2. noname CraftCup lite 9 1. jimpo 2. xDkFat CraftCup Lite 10 1. Fenix 2. Kas CraftCup Lite 11 1. Snake 2. Mikami Go4SC2 Monthly 1. Sjow 2. Mana thermaltake craftcup 4 1. Kas 2. Tefel Close Combat 20 1. Goody Hasuobs 3. Kas CraftCup 1. Goody 2. Insolence MLG Dallas 1. Jinro 2. TT1 3. Painuser Go4SC2 53 1. Cloud 2. Strelok Zotac #30 1. Goody 2. Lalush CraftCup US 1. Fan 2. Syndicate Cyborg Cup #2 1. Goody 2. Kas
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It'd be a lot easier to get an overall picture if you could add the race icon to each player!
Thanks though.
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i think he just modified it, since im pretty sure i saw Idra as Terran, maybe he's fixing it right now...
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On October 27 2010 08:25 Ruud wrote:
i think he just modified it, since im pretty sure i saw Idra as Terran, maybe he's fixing it right now...
yea tlpdize is setting it as a weird mix of SC1 and SC2
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Fuckin slacker dhalsim I quoted the post with some basic info that i know but it needs more updating.
edit nvm you tlpdized it now T.t
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P missing a few first places but I don't see protoss being weak although it seems like nobody is using colossus anymore for no apparent reason in PvZ.
Like I saw nightend vs ret and he lost 1-2 without getting storm or colossus vs hydra roach it was like wtf. (won when ret threw away too many units to get broodlords to have them owned by blink)
PvT is also pigenholed into colossus stalker vs marauder viking medivac now which is just a micro war which is kinda gay. If they buff P early vT and buff T lategame v P like they want to maybe it will be more interesting.
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Interesting. From the way things are going, especially noting the GSL, we might see a lopsided Zerg dominance for a month or two until Terrans (and to a lesser extent Protoss) figure out some new strats.
Poor Protoss always seem to have a little less success.
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Interesting:
The craftcup seems to be terran/zerg-dominated
The wolfcup seems to be protoss-dominated
And close combat seems to be terran-dominated
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Wasn't 3rd at MLG HuK. I thought KiWi got 4th? Maybe I'm crazy though... And it doesn't change race anyways =/
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On October 27 2010 08:49 Alou wrote:
Wasn't 3rd at MLG HuK. I thought KiWi got 4th? Maybe I'm crazy though... And it doesn't change race anyways =/
Huk was 3rd
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On October 27 2010 08:49 Alou wrote:
Wasn't 3rd at MLG HuK. I thought KiWi got 4th? Maybe I'm crazy though... And it doesn't change race anyways =/
3rd was definitely HuK, mothership rush ft..... audience?
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all protoss look the same to me.
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That's very short sighted of you!
Get it guys? LOL!
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Zerg is catching up! Protoss falling behind and Terran manages to secure its domination. Good times.
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Geez this looks like BW individiual league titles at glance. I hope to see more Protoss wins
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I want my goddamn Super-rays back
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On October 27 2010 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
PvT is also pigenholed into colossus stalker vs marauder viking medivac now which is just a micro war which is kinda gay. If they buff P early vT and buff T lategame v P like they want to maybe it will be more interesting.
more like nerf P late vT and nerf T earlygame vP, because we all know that blizz don't like to buff protoss
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Has a much, much better look to the distribution than the last thread I saw on this
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Added 13 latest tournaments, Zerg clearly OP.
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Interesting; Terrans have adjusted their play a bit and pop right back into the lead.
At this level the game is looking better balanced than it was for sure, but there's still a lot of issues.
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At least Protoss caught up to Zerg, horray! Really surprising to see Terran's still on top by so much. Not just in golds but tons of 2nd place medals.
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to be perfectly honest balance is not the only thing to take into consideration.
Confidence plays an important factor, and if you dominate as easily as someone like Sjow or Naama was allowed to for as long as they did because of the imbalance you just gain more confidence and become a better player, grow better practice habits and probably allow yourself to practice more because you get paid better salary by your sponsoring team.
I am however afraid that saying that is a mistake and this will be quoted by hundereds of assholes with no clue in the months to come if it turns out that terran is still as overpowered as ever.
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Woah, In many of the recent tournaments I've seen, terran have been getting the short end of the stick. These results are very surprising to me. I honestly though Zerg and Protoss victors would have a pretty sizable lead. Guess I was wrong though!
Thanks for taking the time to collect all this!
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On November 01 2010 08:29 Sfydjklm wrote:
to be perfectly honest balance is not the only thing to take into consideration.
Confidence plays an important factor, and if you dominate as easily as someone like Sjow or Naama was allowed to for as long as they did because of the imbalance you just gain more confidence and become a better player, grow better practice habits and probably allow yourself to practice more because you get paid better salary by your sponsoring team.
Not to mention a lot of people were put off playing Zerg so there are simply less Zerg players right now. With players like Morrow and TLO switching over and as new players come into the game it might equalize.
Protoss maybe needs some love too. They always seem to get forgotten :p
Edit: part of that is the maps. With Zerg and Terran you have clear distinctions between what is a "Terran" map and what is a "Zerg" map.
Rush distance, size of the chokes and the number of backdoors/different routes all play into the balance.
With Protoss they kind of fall somewhere in the middle. They want short rush distances against Zerg(but not too short) but they want long rush distances versus Terran so it makes it really hard to think of a purely "Protoss" map.
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Quite surprising actually. I didn't think zerg was op after the patch but I though they were doing a lot better.
Not saying that they are still up and buff zerg! but that... well surprising :> and interesting. I hope this will be updated in the future too, going to be interesting to see how this will evolve.
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terran still op...
user was warned for this post even though the automated message isn't showing up - fakesteve
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Everybody is so used to terran winning with ease, now that they struggle more we think terran UP (which is actually not). Zerg struggling kinda feels usual stuff and easily ignored whilst terrans' problem is something new, it draws a lot of attention.
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Interesting turn of events. I always thought that terran just did worse against Z after the patch because T had to adjust on many different levels, while Zergs could do the old tactics with small adjustments. Though Zergplay was more solid overall and lead to more wins.
We are definatly much closer to balance than before the patch. Personally I'd like to see more Custom maps in tourneys, because many balancing issues will be solved by good map makers (fingers crossed for professional korean map makers for future GSLs). Any Balance patches coming up should only increase the interest in specific units, instead of changing often seen units. ie the Raven or the Hydra could need some love to make them more convenient.
I think the game is on a good way to get pretty pretty good. Anyway thanks to the OP for the statistics.
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Add a random counter 
There's 1 random player I see in the list.
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On November 02 2010 23:14 SlyinZ wrote:
terran still op...
Why do people rate races based on tourney performances?
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On October 27 2010 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
P missing a few first places but I don't see protoss being weak although it seems like nobody is using colossus anymore for no apparent reason in PvZ.
Like I saw nightend vs ret and he lost 1-2 without getting storm or colossus vs hydra roach it was like wtf. (won when ret threw away too many units to get broodlords to have them owned by blink)
PvT is also pigenholed into colossus stalker vs marauder viking medivac now which is just a micro war which is kinda gay. If they buff P early vT and buff T lategame v P like they want to maybe it will be more interesting.
The problem early game is concussive shells.
The problem l8 game is that Protoss LOL on anytype of mech play. Literally the counter to mech is protoss.Chargelots,Blink,Voidray,immortal,carrier, phoenix.
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On November 01 2010 08:52 Piski wrote:
Quite surprising actually. I didn't think zerg was op after the patch but I though they were doing a lot better.
Not saying that they are still up and buff zerg! but that... well surprising :> and interesting. I hope this will be updated in the future too, going to be interesting to see how this will evolve.
The only issue i have for TvZ is how difficult it is to FE which is pretty much a neccesity against a hatch 1st Zerg.
Roach and Banling all-ins just rofflestomp those builds. Personally i feel that Banling Dmg against buildings is pretty ridiculous early game.
Omg the Terran is FEing BANLING BUST.
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On November 03 2010 04:41 SgtRock wrote:Why do people rate races based on tourney performances?
Because that's where the races are played to the fullest potential (currently)possible, and thus the best place to look to find the strength/balance of the races.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
results are just results. there is far more at play in a tournament than the game's balance. this is dangerous thinking & makes you a worse player. i'm trying to be as polite and civil as i can about the balance discussion these days, but it's becoming harder and harder.
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I think that's an interesting assertion. I don't see how wanting to see each race get a fair shake at the highest levels of play makes me a worse player. Maybe what you're saying is dangerous is assuming that race distributions in tournament results reflect the power of the races?
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On November 03 2010 03:55 ZannX wrote:Add a random counter There's 1 random player I see in the list.
yea, its "in progress", cant just update after every single tourney=P
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On November 03 2010 05:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
results are just results. there is far more at play in a tournament than the game's balance. this is dangerous thinking & makes you a worse player. i'm trying to be as polite and civil as i can about the balance discussion these days, but it's becoming harder and harder.
Tournament results are pretty much the most accurate indication of balance. Now if you say sample is too small, thats reasonable, saying results dont matter in balance discussion however is simply ignorant.
On that perfect segway- yea ignorance is a bliss. Youll surely have easier time if you can ignore whatever balance issues there are, while at the same time maintaining your confidence after losses. but that usually doesnt work unless youre someone as uber as TLO.
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This is dumb, why would you make just a numerical count? There's way more T players in every single tournament so obviously they're going to win more. This also doesn't account for matchup coincidences, like the fact that there were a ton of ZvZs in the GSL 2, which weeded out a lot of zerg players.
People are going to try to make balance assumptions based on this worthless info. If you actually want to have some good data, look at the matchups in top tournaments and look at the advancement rate for non-mirrors.
Some of the posts in here are like saying white people are the best golfers because there are more white golfers, completely ignoring the actual demographics of the population.
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On November 03 2010 06:47 iEchoic wrote:
This is dumb, why would you make just a numerical count? There's way more T players in every single tournament so obviously they're going to win more. This also doesn't account for matchup coincidences, like the fact that there were a ton of ZvZs in the GSL 2, which weeded out a lot of zerg players.
People are going to try to make balance assumptions based on this worthless info. If you actually want to have some good data, look at the matchups in top tournaments and look at the advancement rate for non-mirrors.
Some of the posts in here are like saying white people are the best golfers because there are more white golfers, completely ignoring the actual demographics of the population.
now, fakesteve, thats teh sort of retarded comment that is ban worthy.
Tell me, iEchoic, do terrans account for 50% of the population? Huh?
And i'm sorry to burst your bubble, heres the mirror MU statistics from GSL:
22 TvT | 9 ZvZ | 5 PvP or 7 matches tvt, 4 zvz.
Yea i dont account for that do I.
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Great job, keep up the good work.
Nice info, Zerg and Protoss are more balanced now, though Terran still dominate, though I feel it their domination may reduce with some time, though we'll just have to see.
Balance is going better for now and hopefully it will only improve.
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nice, thanks a lot!
keep it updated please.
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Balance discussions will always be biased in some way. I got pointed to the Starcraft Bible thread today.
Look how it went on bw, the races took turns to dominate, depending on the metagame and on pro gamers finding new builds and ways to use their units efficiently.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 03 2010 05:52 Itrees wrote:
I think that's an interesting assertion. I don't see how wanting to see each race get a fair shake at the highest levels of play makes me a worse player. Maybe what you're saying is dangerous is assuming that race distributions in tournament results reflect the power of the races?
yeah, that's what i was saying, sorry it wasn't more clear.
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terrans dominance is long gone, not sure why the stats show what they do but maybe its just the # of players per race.
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fuck i love you! thanks a lot.
omg terran players till are just clearly better than anyone in this completely balanced game!
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On November 03 2010 07:47 Ganondorf wrote:Balance discussions will always be biased in some way. I got pointed to the Starcraft Bible thread today. Look how it went on bw, the races took turns to dominate, depending on the metagame and on pro gamers finding new builds and ways to use their units efficiently.
I think that's definitely true for a game that hasn't been patched in years. But for a game that is being adjusted, it makes sense to compare the sharp differences a patch might bring.
It definitely looks like the terran "sky is falling!" commotion was premature. Look how well the gsl terrans adjusted.
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On November 03 2010 07:53 Bull-Demon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 07:47 Ganondorf wrote:Balance discussions will always be biased in some way. I got pointed to the Starcraft Bible thread today. Look how it went on bw, the races took turns to dominate, depending on the metagame and on pro gamers finding new builds and ways to use their units efficiently. I think that's definitely true for a game that hasn't been patched in years. But for a game that is being adjusted, it makes sense to compare the sharp differences a patch might bring. It definitely looks like the terran "sky is falling!" commotion was premature. Look how well the gsl terrans adjusted.
They didnt adjust at all.
If you actually look at the amount of zergs that entered the tournament.
The win percentage rate of Zergs till the RO16.
Then at the matches where the zergs did get knocked out.
End that with the actual players in the matches, you will see that a big percentage of the games of zerg against a non mirror has been won by zerg.
Out of the top my head, we have had the best zergs faces eachothers off in a ZvZ matches. Five?
Then Foxer destroyed 2 zergs. One of them was Fruitdealer, in which both of the games Fruitdealer didnt even bother to scout.
And Boxer killed off an unknown zerg in the RO64.
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I think it only really matters in big money tournaments such as GOM or MLG and maybe that one that Huk played in to skip GSL 2. I never really heard of 90% of those people. Difference in effort and preparation when people are playing for a big wad of cash or a paycheck rather than just a fun casual tourney.
EDIT: Oh and Blizzcon too.
Also does anyone know at these big events where the players are in the same room do they play online or some special blizzard setup LAN?
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On November 03 2010 08:12 Instigata wrote:
I think it only really matters in big money tournaments such as GOM or MLG and maybe that one that Huk played in to skip GSL 2. I never really heard of 90% of those people. Difference in effort and preparation when people are playing for a big wad of cash or a paycheck rather than just a fun casual tourney.
I dont think these are actually a good measure of balance at all. Firstly you can get someone ridiculously good pulling ridiculous upsets in fruitdealer.
And second of all we get pretty much clutch people vs people who choke- Iron for example who always does very well in the comfort of his own home but choked in both GSLs. Or Zenio in GSL 1 who apparently was #1 oGs player in practice but did horribly in the tourney. Playing live for a boatload of money includes a bit different set of skills then pure starcraft 2 strategy.
EDIT: Oh and Blizzcon too.
Also does anyone know at these big events where the players are in the same room do they play online or some special blizzard setup LAN?
It's mostly online, but for blizzcon the players were not online during their games(i added em and checked^^). I'm guessing blizzcon had lan or dedicated server.
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SjoW is such a beast. He basically wins like 75% of stuff he takes part in. If he improves his mechanics I can see him winning 100% :D
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I think this really is the best way to measure balance, together with watching single high level BOx games, like we have them in GSL. The second way is really hard to do scientifically, because everyone will be biased, and you have to take so much into account when trying to figure out balance problems while watching a game where you might miss oh so many tiny mistakes.
The way the OP is doing it on the other hand is an easy way to avoid mistakes, since you just do the numbers. Of course there is room for interpretation, and correlated numbers like racial percentages of players, but it is still a very good estimator for balance overall.
Also, for high level tournaments the percentage of overall race useage does not matter much. And people who argue about including statistics of how many mirrors there were etc, thats plain stupid since the effect on the overall result will converge to zero when the number of tournaments included gets higher.
So this might be important for a single tournament, but not for larger databases like this one.
And the guy who argued for that in GSL, got wtfpwned by OP anyways :D
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Not a big deal, but I count 10 Zerg firsts in that list. Also, a couple of the tournaments (GamerBase UK and Craftcup US) have multiple firsts listed.
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Interesting to note are the massive number of Terran silver medals. Helps the theory that the reason there are so many dominating Terrans is that they are just more Terran players in general.
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updatezor
looks like Terrans( with the help of Foxer no doubt) are quickly adjusting to the patch changes to return to their former glory.
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On November 07 2010 07:38 HollowLord wrote:
Interesting to note are the massive number of Terran silver medals. Helps the theory that the reason there are so many dominating Terrans is that they are just more Terran players in general.
umm in no way does it do so.
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These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss.
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On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss.
for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true.
Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated.
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Did you get the first GSL? I didn't see it in your spoiler list.
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Very interesting. I wonder when we'll see the six dragons of Terran =D
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On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated.
I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious.
EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end.
Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce.
Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa.
Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK.
There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad.
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All statistical collections of data have some sort of tell about them. It may be that terran is OP, or that zerg/protoss are UP. It may be a tell that the metagame at the point of these tournaments is T favored. It could also mean that terrans overpopulate the tournament scene. Why do so many people play terran? Why are terran finishing in the top 3 so often? Why are terran able to adapt so quickly to new patches?
Regardless of what tiny window these statistics show, it is evidence that race distribution is not balanced on some level. It may not be the end all indicator of terrans being OP in individual matchups, but it is at least an indicator that the terran part of the equation offers more to players than the zerg and protoss counterparts.
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On October 27 2010 08:38 Slayer91 wrote:
P missing a few first places but I don't see protoss being weak although it seems like nobody is using colossus anymore for no apparent reason in PvZ.
Like I saw nightend vs ret and he lost 1-2 without getting storm or colossus vs hydra roach it was like wtf. (won when ret threw away too many units to get broodlords to have them owned by blink)
PvT is also pigenholed into colossus stalker vs marauder viking medivac now which is just a micro war which is kinda gay. If they buff P early vT and buff T lategame v P like they want to maybe it will be more interesting.
omg if the macro of the players is = it turns into a micro war how fucking interesting.
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People should just be able to build the unit that counters that other unit, then win, duh
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On November 09 2010 04:35 rattus22 wrote:
Did you get the first GSL? I didn't see it in your spoiler list.
this is post 1.1.2
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On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad.
Well if you look at 1.1.2 as an isolated event and 1.1.2 has brought us balance we will soon see more zergs emerge. This is what this list is for to keep track of whether that will happen.
Unfortunately however just the opposite is happening- with each update terrans become more and more dominant.
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I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
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On November 09 2010 06:32 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad. Well if you look at 1.1.2 as an isolated event and 1.1.2 has brought us balance we will soon see more zergs emerge. This is what this list is for to keep track of whether that will happen. Unfortunately however just the opposite is happening- with each update terrans become more and more dominant.
You're apparently not understanding anything I'm saying.
On November 09 2010 06:37 aepal wrote:
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
This, there are simply are more higher level Terran's than there are other races. Especially when you inculde every weekly EU tournament which 60% of the players are Terran's.
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On November 09 2010 06:37 aepal wrote:
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
Youre wrong. Firstly, overall protoss differs from terran by less then 0.2%. In diamond there are more protoss then terran. Not only that, but it gets better, here's the amount of races present in GGnet DB:
GGnet DB:
1489 Zerg
1493 Protoss
1491 terran
As you can see teh amount of people per racce that enter tournaments is more or less even.
Out of curiousity heres a sample of tLPD:
Tlnet DB:
128 Protoss
153 Terran
114 Zerg
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On November 09 2010 07:03 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 06:32 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad. Well if you look at 1.1.2 as an isolated event and 1.1.2 has brought us balance we will soon see more zergs emerge. This is what this list is for to keep track of whether that will happen. Unfortunately however just the opposite is happening- with each update terrans become more and more dominant. You're apparently not understanding anything I'm saying.
Well, there was another way in which i could interpret what you said but since it was ridiculously stupid and already addressed in this, and many otehr, threads i decided to give you some credit.
However what i said is a sort of an axiom so i think i got everythign covered tehre. Its a really simple concept.
If the game is indeed balanced well see Z/P winrate going up.
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On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad.
Here's where that argument falls apart. Let's say the worst case of race representation ends up being 70% terran and 30% other in Europe every week. If we ONLY have results from the worst case, then we should see medal distribution approach ~70% terran and ~30% other. This is how the data currently looks.
However, this data takes into account other sources as well, which have distributions of less than 70% terran. Even then, Europe probably, on average, has terran representation less than 70%. Even in the list you provided, they only account for ~55%. This means that we should see a distribution of medals that approaches a number (much) less than 70%, closer to weighted averages of race distribution over all tournaments involved.
All that being said, there has to be a tell of inbalance by the incredible number of terrans which make it into high level play. Even if each match may seem balanced, there are probably underlying factors which cause unbalance in the metagame as a whole.
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errrr....
i dont understand this at all.
what are the +?
is this supposed to be before 1.1.2, and the plus signs are after 1.1.2?
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On November 09 2010 09:39 Subversion wrote:
errrr....
i dont understand this at all.
what are the +?
is this supposed to be before 1.1.2, and the plus signs are after 1.1.2?
I believe the first number is the total wins so far after patch 1.1.2, and the number after + is the additional wins between OP updating his post (not between patch).
If you click on the second bottom spoiler in the post, that was the first time he was tallying the number for after the patch released.
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On November 09 2010 07:55 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 04:56 JJEOS wrote:On November 09 2010 02:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 09 2010 02:21 JJEOS wrote:
These results are skewed. A lot of the tournaments are in EU which has 1 Zerg 15 Terran and like 3 protoss. for the sake of saving this thread from pointless bickering i would like you to provide evidence that what you say is true. Actually if anything, i skew it in favor of terran- i.e. i have not included the Hazard LAN and neither i am including several russian tourneys because in hazard lan it was just Sjow and russian tourneys are, as always, terran overpopulated. I'm not trying to start any bickering by any means I'm just stating what I thought was obvious. EU is just very heavy for Terran on the top end. Zerg: Dimaga, Ret, Darkforce. Toss: Socke, nAniwa, MaNa, WhiteRa. Terran: MorroW: Sjow, Tarson, ClouD, Naama. Goody, Kas, Strelok, BratOK. There's 16 people that regularly place at the top in tournament over there. I'm probably missing a couple from each race but the is pretty much from the top of my head and just backs up what I as saying. When you include weekly tournaments where 2/3 of the top 3 are Terran it looks pretty bad. Here's where that argument falls apart. Let's say the worst case of race representation ends up being 70% terran and 30% other in Europe every week. If we ONLY have results from the worst case, then we should see medal distribution approach ~70% terran and ~30% other. This is how the data currently looks. However, this data takes into account other sources as well, which have distributions of less than 70% terran. Even then, Europe probably, on average, has terran representation less than 70%. Even in the list you provided, they only account for ~55%. This means that we should see a distribution of medals that approaches a number (much) less than 70%, closer to weighted averages of race distribution over all tournaments involved. All that being said, there has to be a tell of inbalance by the incredible number of terrans which make it into high level play. Even if each match may seem balanced, there are probably underlying factors which cause unbalance in the metagame as a whole.
Not exactly. I don't watch those tournaments so I don't know who is competing. Just looking at the top 3 of winners isn't proving anything. If someone put in the time to look at lets say MLG Dallas and they counted the W/L's of the Top 32 maybe even Top 16 to get an even level of skill then it might be something worth looking at. But when you look at the top 3 from various tournaments you don't know who played in that tournament. Were all the top players from all 3 races represented? Maybe; maybe not, but just looking at it and saying one race is OP is retarded and wrong.
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On November 09 2010 09:51 biskit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 09:39 Subversion wrote:
errrr....
i dont understand this at all.
what are the +?
is this supposed to be before 1.1.2, and the plus signs are after 1.1.2? I believe the first number is the total wins so far after patch 1.1.2, and the number after + is the additional wins between OP updating his post (not between patch). If you click on the second bottom spoiler in the post, that was the first time he was tallying the number for after the patch released.
oh ok cool, thanks. i think that would be way easier to understand if the + numbers were in brackets.
like 41 (+21)
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I'm not surprised Protoss is winning less considering that they've been nerfed every single patch since the beta came out.
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Impressive T performance.
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SC2 is shaping to be just like SC1 with Protoss getting the least wins out of all three races  we want our own NaDa and co
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On November 09 2010 12:01 Gudeldar wrote:
I'm not surprised Protoss is winning less considering that they've been nerfed every single patch since the beta came out.
this.
should expect a nerf on protoss' late game vT...just following Blizz's trend in their patches
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Dustin Browder himself said at Blizzcon that Blizzard look at the matches and not the results. One race winning tournaments more than the others means nothing if the people playing that race are better or more numerous. And vica verca.
Not everybody at the top level is equal. Look at the matches instead of the final standings. So sick of one race winning a tourny and then everybody automatically assuming something must be OP with that race or something must be wrong with the other races and that somehow this imaginery imbalance also translates to their own level of play.
Toss did crap in the GSL because Toss players played like crap in the GSL. Zerg did crap at MLG because Zergs played like crap in MLG (Dallas).
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On November 09 2010 06:37 aepal wrote:
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
No, Toss is about equal with Terran in # of players. Toss just wins less than Terran so you think that.
Zerg is least played due to ugly and complexity but have very good win %.
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SjoW is a beast and half of those Terran wins are by his hand, so it may look skewed 
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On November 09 2010 12:18 Sniffy wrote:
Dustin Browder himself said at Blizzcon that Blizzard look at the matches and not the results. One race winning tournaments more than the others means nothing if the people playing that race are better or more numerous. And vica verca.
Not everybody at the top level is equal. Look at the matches instead of the final standings. So sick of one race winning a tourny and then everybody automatically assuming something must be OP with that race or something must be wrong with the other races and that somehow this imaginery imbalance also translates to their own level of play.
Toss did crap in the GSL because Toss players played like crap in the GSL. Zerg did crap at MLG because Zergs played like crap in MLG (Dallas).
I can hardly credit Blizzard with knowing what theyre doing outside of making money.
I agree with what you say, but its completely irrelevant because im not tallying one tourney im trying to build up a relevant sample size.
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On November 09 2010 13:58 Malhorn wrote:SjoW is a beast and half of those Terran wins are by his hand, so it may look skewed
I dont feel comfortable calling an 80 apm guy who doesnt scout a beast.
He's good yea but he would never cut it if he wasnt T.
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have seriously no protoss won a tournament since 1.12? oh god.... i feel so sad inside now =(
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On November 03 2010 06:47 iEchoic wrote:
This is dumb, why would you make just a numerical count? There's way more T players in every single tournament so obviously they're going to win more. This also doesn't account for matchup coincidences, like the fact that there were a ton of ZvZs in the GSL 2, which weeded out a lot of zerg players.
People are going to try to make balance assumptions based on this worthless info. If you actually want to have some good data, look at the matchups in top tournaments and look at the advancement rate for non-mirrors.
Some of the posts in here are like saying white people are the best golfers because there are more white golfers, completely ignoring the actual demographics of the population.
Thats great and all, but Terrans dont make up FOUR TIMES the amount of the next closest race, yet they have FOUR TIMES the amount of success. A gap that large cant be ignored by just saying 'oh well there are more terrans'. There aren't THAT many more terrans. My problem with the comparison is you've got these crappy little online tournaments measured up against big live events like blizzcon (invite only btw) and MLG's. They are totally different environments with different player pools and a different level of competition. Having said that though, its pretty ignorant to try to downplay a gap THIS large. How about the fact that more people play protoss than any other race if you consider the entire player pool? Why is it that more people play protoss than any other race and yet the protoss have the least tournament success? Why is it that so many more terrans play in tournaments despite being less represented in the overall population? Could it be because they are so easy to use at a competitive level? No that can't be it... Terran must be the race that all the gosu players play and protoss and zerg players choose those races because they cant fathom the complicated race that is terran. Give me a break. You should really use your own logic and see how it fits
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Honestly I think protoss players just need to learn to use nydus worms..
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On November 09 2010 06:37 aepal wrote:
I think people forget that Terran is the most played race, thus has the most successful players. Shocker.
Terran is not the most played race. Protoss is, then terran, then zerg
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Stop counting shit and start playing the game !!
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poor toss
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Terran is not the most played race. Protoss is, then terran, then zerg
So terran are OP?
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On October 27 2010 08:21 Sfydjklm wrote:Hope i didn't miss anything. 41 +21 31 +11 9 +3 12 +3 16 +5 2 +0 9 +0 14 +7 3 +0 1 + Show Spoiler [1st update] + 20 +9 20 +9 6 +3 9 +0 11 +4 2 +1 9 +4 7 +0 3 +0 DSRack LAN 1. SjoW 2. Socke 3. Naama DSRack SGS 1. Socke 2. Naama 3. SjoW MLG 1. IdrA 2. SeleCt 3. HuK Blizzcon 1. Genius 2. Loner 3. WhiteRa Wolf Cup 12 1. TT1 2. Levin Wolf Cup 11 1. Zelniq 2. Ddoro CraftCup 10 1. SjoW 2. DieStar CraftCup 11 1. SjoW 2. DieStar CraftCup 12 1. Tarson 2. Naugrim CraftCup 13 1. Naugrim 2. MaNa CraftCup 14 1. DeathAngel 2. Nerchio CraftCup 15 1. BratOK 2. ret Gosucoaching 12 1. ret 2. greatman Go4SC2 US 1. greatman 2. Killer Go4SC2 49 1. DarKFoRcE 2. Tarson Go4SC2 48 1. MaNa 2. RogaloS Go4Sc2 47 1. GoOdy 2. LaLuSh Zotac 28 1. Kas 2. Ciara Zotac 27 1. DIMAGA 2. Tarson Close Combat 17 1. Bratok 2. GoOdy 3. DarKFoRcE Close Combat 16 1. OutSide 2. HasuObs 3. GoOdy Close Combat 15 1. BratOk 2. GoOdy 3. WhiteRa Competo 11 1. Tefel 2. Jimpo Competo 10 1. Bly 2. Bischu Cyborg SC2 Inside 1. Socke 2. Voshix UPD 31.10 Zotac Cup #29 1. Kas 2. Tarson Go4SC2 Cup #51 1. Sjow 2. Strelok MSI EG Masters 1. HuK 2. Slush 3. LZGamer GamerBase UK 1. SjoW 1. Lau 1. zion CraftCup 1. Tarson 2. Bly CraftCup US 1. Levin 1. KTr Viking Cup 1. Naama 2. Lalush CraftCup Thermaltake 1 1. Mana 2. allaboutyou CraftCup Thermaltake 2 1. Fenix 2. Kas EST 4players.de 1. BratOk 2. inuh 3. ClouD EPS France 1. Sarens 2. Aures 3. Tuzer Go4SC2 50 1. Slider 2. ClouD Go4SC2 US 2 1. Fenix 2. Greatman UPD 08.11 Go4Sc2 3 1. Killer 2. dde Competo 1. Kas 2. Diestar CraftCup thermaltake 3 1. Jimpo 2. Aristeo Close Combat 18 1. Moonan 2. Tarson 3. Goody WolfCup 13 1. Fenix 2. TT1 Go4SC2 NA October 1. Drewbie 2. KilleR Go4SC2 NA 4 1. Killer 2. AcerGameGMMA Go4SC2 52 1. Kas 2. Madfrog Gosucoaching 13 1. Kawaiirice 2. Painuser Undeniably Gamer 1. Sjow 2. Catz SC2 Inside 2 1. Goody 2. Kas CraftCup Lite 8 1. dske 2. noname CraftCup lite 9 1. jimpo 2. xDkFat CraftCup Lite 10 1. Fenix 2. Kas CraftCup Lite 11 1. Snake 2. Mikami Go4SC2 Monthly 1. Sjow 2. Mana thermaltake craftcup 4 1. Kas 2. Tefel Close Combat 20 1. Goody Hasuobs 3. Kas CraftCup 1. Goody 2. Insolence MLG Dallas 1. Jinro 2. TT1 3. Painuser Go4SC2 53 1. Cloud 2. Strelok Zotac #30 1. Goody 2. Lalush CraftCup US 1. Fan 2. Syndicate Cyborg Cup #2 1. Goody 2. Kas
What the!? Protoss, explain yourself, don't make me go to MLG (comic audience laugh).
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Protoss has not won anything since 1.1.2? No surprise there really. Their entire early game revolves around seconded guessing the opponent or doing an all in tech gamble by not going for robo because they have shit early scouting (IE when scouting matters most). Zealots are also unable to chase scouts out (you are scouted longer than a Terran/zerg is). Another major problem is that all their aoe options are all top tier and hard to get 3 making them very weak to well structured T1 attacks (Mass marine/lng). Oh and Chronoboost sucks as a Racial special.
Their actual units are good and stuff but vs a decent player you'll never live long enough to get them out.
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and so all those toss nerfs have finally caught up... blizz you reap what you sow
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Is it possible to get an update on this?
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EPT
