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On October 25 2010 08:19 Choirdrunk wrote:
That being said, zerg is also just really powerful in a progamer's hands right now. Blizzard granted the race the ability to expand at will, maintain map control and then nerfed terrans ability to harass (reapers + reaper speed + barracks requirement) so that zerg can comfortably expand early with one basic harass option (hellions) that they KNOW they will be preparing for. Banshees are gimmicky and not game effective since you'll be on one base and the damage you'll do will not compensate for the advantages zerg accrues from the second base. The most recent shoutcast on HDstarcraft's channel shows a ZvT where the T launched an incredibly successful hellion harass that roasted more than a dozen drones only to be even in economy within a minute.
So, as of now, terran can't assault early. If it gets to the late game, they are done. Terrans are trying to find a narrow timing window they can exploit. The reason we're seeing all these early thor pushes. Oh well, I guess its zerg's time in the sun.
Yeah, that's a good description of the top level games now. Top Terran players can't stop top Zerg players from macroing and taking map control because of the Reaper nerfs and the Roach buffs. The game is quite unbalanced now.
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The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
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On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote:
The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
Well said, I agree.
T is definitely not weak at the moment and those saying it is need to realize maybe they're just not good.
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Gonna miss his Hellion play.
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As a zerg and terran player, I know how he feels I like to play both although I feel my terran is more solid, but my zerg is decent, infestor play is my strength. He can pick whatever race he wants, and am glad he's just playing as I love his playstyle.
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IMO They shouldve just patched reapers so the tech lab (not barracks) needs a supply depot to build
Anyway cant wait to see TLO back as zerg. Nukes aside, his infestor play was awesome
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each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage.
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On October 25 2010 09:28 taintmachine wrote:
each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage.
What you've seen is actually the opposite of what is shown at high level competition.
Great players from any race will be efficient with their replenishment and as resilient as possible to counter attacks after losing their army.
Terran is actually the best race for recovering because their economy is so good and their units are so efficient.
The only time terran has trouble recovering at all is when you get an army sitting on top of their production facility and their squishies blow up the moment they pop out, but if the enemy counters that deep into your base all the races would be in a lot of trouble anyway.
Toss is the worst race to replenish with because their army, while strong late game, takes a while to rebuild.
Terran is the best, if they do not have a macro disadvantage.
If zerg is up 1 base they become the best, but that's also because they are up 1 base.
At top level play the people I see recover the most from getting their army wiped out are terrans, when it is equal base.
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On October 25 2010 09:37 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 09:28 taintmachine wrote:
each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage. What you've seen is actually the opposite of what is shown at high level competition. Great players from any race will be efficient with their replenishment and as resilient as possible to counter attacks after losing their army. Terran is actually the best race for recovering because their economy is so good and their units are so efficient. The only time terran has trouble recovering at all is when you get an army sitting on top of their production facility and their squishies blow up the moment they pop out, but if the enemy counters that deep into your base all the races would be in a lot of trouble anyway. Toss is the worst race to replenish with because their army, while strong late game, takes a while to rebuild. Terran is the best, if they do not have a macro disadvantage.If zerg is up 1 base they become the best, but that's also because they are up 1 base. At top level play the people I see recover the most from getting their army wiped out are terrans, when it is equal base.
Excuse me, what? Terran has not only the slowest build times in the game, they also have their units spread out over the most production facilities. Terran is the WORST race at replentishing a lost army. Especially if your army contains mech or air units, if you lose the army thats it, you are never ever going to remake it in time to stay in the game.
Also, it is even when it is equal base? Yeah that is exactly why terrans are complaining about lategame TvZ and TvP. You can't actually stay on even bases without getting rolled. You can keep up all the way to three bases, after that the only way you are staying even in expansions is if your opponent is not good enough to take advantage of the fact that you actually can't defend all your bases.
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yea i agree with vangarde about terran having the worst production. reactors are good but only can be used for 4 units and block other tech untis for that building. i think lategame zerg has always had a big advantage over terran in terms of production. with the tank nerf, i feel this really isn't a hard opinion to hold. previously, it was just the case that terran could abuse zerg early and either end games early or make the zerg transition into mid w/ a crippled econ. also, tanks murdered lings beyond reason, so larvae could be just about wasted when trying to pump lings out as a quick reinforcement.
protoss actually has strong production w/ multiple nexi (sp?) because chronoboost reduces WG cooldown, and the backbone of their army comes from the warpgate. pooling boosts before a confrontation seems very smart to me.
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On October 25 2010 09:04 cuppatea wrote:
The game was being dominated by Terran to an absurd extent. There have been nearly 100 tournament wins by Terran players since the game was released and around 10 for Zerg. It had become the norm to see 5 or 6 Terran in the top 8 of nearly every tournament, while seeing more than 1 Zerg at that stage was a rarity. The game was in dire need of patching.
A lot of Terrans won't do as well in 1.12 as they did previously, but the truth is they should have never been enjoying such great success in the first place. Morrow, who by his own admission wasn't practicing a lot, should never have been outperforming Dimaga by such a huge margin. Silver should never have been 2-0'ing Idra. Players like Check, Zenio, Darkforce, Slush etc should never have been getting stomped every time they came up against a top Terran in their region.
Have Terran been nerfed too hard? It's too early to say. We've seen 4 high level LAN tournaments since 1.12 was released (MLG DC and Blizzcon in the US and both DSRack tournaments in Europe) and there was a Terran in the final of all of them. Maybe they'll be shown to be underpowered in the coming weeks but there's absolutely nothing to back those claims up right now.
Everything shown at Blizzcon's Multiplayer presentation proves alot of this wrong in that you can't really base balance off tounraments and let's not forget that Fruitseller won the biggest and most fruitful tournament out there. The GSL. Most of the Terran OP stuff came just because the spotlight Zergs made some statements regarding things they thought were imbalances and the community as always blew it up even tho most other comparable things regarding the matchup didn't show drastic imbalance even in diamond. It was basically at the highest level of execution and timings that Terran were winning more than necessary against Zerg and even that was not totally proven wrong but slightly by Fruitseller's complete dominance in the GSL.
Not totally derailing you though it is too early to tell if this patch makes Zerg completely broken or not but in those SlayerSBoxeR vs Fruitseller games it "appears" that there was very little boxer could do to win as Zergs macro potential and unit effectiveness vs Terrans is just devastating and there was no way for BoxeR to take and hold a third in either game because of the ease Zerg can take map control simply by surviving Terran attempts to punish a FE.
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On October 25 2010 09:44 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 09:37 robertdinh wrote:On October 25 2010 09:28 taintmachine wrote:
each hatchery can hold up to 19 larvae. while that doesn't happen much at all, it's pretty amazing how many production "facilities" a zerg can potentially have with multiple bases. terran players have to figure something out. i've seen the good terrans win a major confrontation and still get overrun without a macro disadvantage. What you've seen is actually the opposite of what is shown at high level competition. Great players from any race will be efficient with their replenishment and as resilient as possible to counter attacks after losing their army. Terran is actually the best race for recovering because their economy is so good and their units are so efficient. The only time terran has trouble recovering at all is when you get an army sitting on top of their production facility and their squishies blow up the moment they pop out, but if the enemy counters that deep into your base all the races would be in a lot of trouble anyway. Toss is the worst race to replenish with because their army, while strong late game, takes a while to rebuild. Terran is the best, if they do not have a macro disadvantage.If zerg is up 1 base they become the best, but that's also because they are up 1 base. At top level play the people I see recover the most from getting their army wiped out are terrans, when it is equal base. Excuse me, what? Terran has not only the slowest build times in the game, they also have their units spread out over the most production facilities. Terran is the WORST race at replentishing a lost army. Especially if your army contains mech or air units, if you lose the army thats it, you are never ever going to remake it in time to stay in the game. Also, it is even when it is equal base? Yeah that is exactly why terrans are complaining about lategame TvZ and TvP. You can't actually stay on even bases without getting rolled. You can keep up all the way to three bases, after that the only way you are staying even in expansions is if your opponent is not good enough to take advantage of the fact that you actually can't defend all your bases.
You are confusing the fact that many terrans were carried by balance issues for a while and could not adapt to the patches, with how the game has been playing out at top level.
Protoss has the weakest replenish, we all know this, because their units are built around high resource cost + high food cost. Their units are stronger on a 1 to 1 basis (not actually true but that is the concept behind them).
We also know that a zerg on equal base to a terran will generally have a hard time keeping up in macro with the terran and will have a weaker army, efficiency wise.
There are random exceptions but personally I only base my opinion on what the top players are doing
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terran was too good against zerg early game and tanks were too good against ling groups. this was a map issue and an issue w/ how good terran harassment was. people shouldn't cling to ideas like "the entire matchup is or was imbalanced!" because that's just fucking stupid.
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It's entirely true that Terran was too strong against Zerg early game. That in part hid the fact that Zerg is too strong late game, because it rarely got to that point. Terran needs to kill the Zerg outright, because if you just trade armies and the Zerg is up a base (which they're going to be), you'll never rebuild in time.
I don't really have any idea how to change this, the disparity is kind of built into the race design. Are we okay with the matchup being "Terran wins early or doesn't win at all"? Maybe we'll have to be.
EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
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On October 25 2010 09:28 UberThing wrote:
IMO They shouldve just patched reapers so the tech lab (not barracks) needs a supply depot to build
Anyway cant wait to see TLO back as zerg. Nukes aside, his infestor play was awesome
I agree with everything this man says.
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toss units are good 1:1, robert. i dunno what you're talking about. situationally they aren't, like if they don't have the proper tech or are facing a counter unit (marauder vs stalker).
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Well, let it not be said that TLO doesn't have balls. I love how MorroW pretty much forgot about his supposed plans to be Zerg, yet TLO is coming out of the racial closet as it were. TLO's Zerg has honestly fascinated me more than any other players', so I'll really be eagerly waiting for GSL3.
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On October 25 2010 10:01 kojinshugi wrote:
EDIT: Isn't the common wisdom "Zerg is designed to be one base ahead of T and P"? If the Zerg isn't ahead a base, he's already losing.
Isn't it common wisdom that "It's designed that T has to stop Z to get base ahead?" If the T can't stop it, he's already losing.
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terran are by far the worst race curently at the higher level , that not because they are bad , but protoss and zerg pretty much figured out how good terran play and what they will do + what they can do + the heavy nerfing since many many patch make the terran the bully race .
for exemple in t v z , you can open 1 suply 1 baract ( something else ? lol ? ) , the zerg fast exp , pretty much nothing the terran can do here , the zerg make 2 queen , make some zergling vs the lone reaper if the terran try that
and good zerg will got speed ling in time and just kill them , and the reaper speed require factory now aka reaper are are now useless and im not sure why they are still a unit in the game .
but anyway let go back to the matchup , after open 1 baract the terran will wall off with one factory and make one hellion ( or 2 hellion , we switch add on , this look gosu , why not ?! )
vs the hellion the zerg will make 3-5 roach , completly counter the hellion and go back macro queen inject mode while mining for 2 mineral base while the terran still on one .
here the terran cant do anything , the zerg can try timing push roach , if the terran try any push baneling are here .
so curently terran we go 1 fast thor because that the only thing we can do and who can counter timing roach push or baneling + ling .
pretty much no one attack here , the terran will take the exp when he got the one thor out with some hellion and some marine , medivak will be soon out .
let stop and look at the zerg , he now on mass drone mode and got one realy strong economy .
he make many zergling with baneling and or roach , he take third exp and infestor will be out soon .
the terran scans , see the third exp and use the only timing push he can do in the whole game , (here we send 8-10 scv for repair thor , this look gosu and that seriously strong , i should not say that because people will start notice and thor will be the next to be nerfed , but im tired of the esport manner lying mode....i want one serious RTS like starcraft 1 where the game require real skill )
go back to the push : big army vs army clash , pretty much the winner here come out
1- terran do 100 % dmg = he win right here ,
2- terran and zerg do 50 % dmg aka both army almost die= the zerg got advantage
3- terran do 0 % , the push fail = he has loss the game
( this part require good micro skill from both zerg and terran usualy so that not unfair )
but why in number 2 zerg got advantage ? that because of queen inject and the better macro system they give , the zerg can remake one army the fastest in the game , while protoss and terran take more time .
( here we add dropship thor drop harass or marine drop , or both , some time this make the terran come back in the game... but good zerg realy know that coming , what else they can do anyway they think in smilling ?! )
the next push the terran try the zerg now got infestor and with some good use completly destroy the terran army .
in the metagame now people say : OMG this zerg used some crazy micro skill so that the reason he win this fight ,he played well , while this noob terran deserve to be killed for just trying to abuse the terran race .
when the terran win any fight i have say before , zerg will cry IMBALANCE , NERF TERRAN
( using cap make it cooler , right ?! anyway we all love to get one bully no ? so we picked terran )
now the terran players play t v z and see all that and think... OMG , they can do that and win tournament and money ?! ,
i can too ! okay time to play zerg too .
but the new zerg user got one pretty much hard matchup too , z v p , at high level that pretty hard .
warning : this reply come from after loss over many many many pratice game since the last patch vs good zerg and im curently angry and drunk
i probably dont think what i have write and im sorry in advance .
( btw that not zerg players fault either the game like that , everyone do the best they can with what they got , dont hate people for using abusive strategie , good players play for money and will use any mean possible to win, that and what blizzard feal like to nerf or buff from listening to the more vocal fansbase race .
the bully aka one noob terran .
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On October 25 2010 10:11 taintmachine wrote:
toss units are good 1:1, robert. i dunno what you're talking about. situationally they aren't, like if they don't have the proper tech or are facing a counter unit (marauder vs stalker).
They are in theory, but in practice there are certain units that simply don't match up to their equivalent in other races, even though they are supposed to be the bulky efficient race.
Keep in mind I am not arguing about the natural strength of armies, I am saying that when your entire army gets wiped on equal bases, terran can recover more effectively than the other races. Toss takes a bit of time to rebuild their army to critical mass, zerg is good but they usually have to be 1 base ahead to keep up, so that isn't equal bases.
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EPT
