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On October 16 2010 03:26 Euronyme wrote:
Was high templar feedback that overpowered against terran and zerg that they had to make the feedback spell useless?
Why keep things that are completely useless?
Just remove feedback and the reaper and replace it with something useful.
toss is already the weakest race in tournaments, and high templars take like an hour longer to get than thors and corruptors..
ah well guess that we'll be buffed up again if it turns out toss got nerfed to the ground.
It may not necessarily be about feedback. It could be just that energy costs really didn't make sense for those units. The units only have one spell and unlike a battlecruiser, they have no upgrade to increase energy.
It's much cleaner for them to just have a cooldown based ability like Blink.
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Interesting patch, I particularly like the buffs to Zerg buildings, they needed that after seeing so many games with MMM just sniping key production buildings and leaving before anyone noticed anything.
The nerf to nitro pack is just dumb though. The supply depot before barracks and the build time increases were enough of a nerf to reaper.
Also glad to see the mana bars reduced from Thors and Corruptors, it makes their activated abilities slightly more viable.
I'm still waiting for the change to Carriers and Mothership.
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Was high templar feedback that overpowered against terran and zerg that they had to make the feedback spell useless?
Feedback is not useless by any stretch. It still works against Medivacs, Banshees, Ghosts, Ravens, BCs, Infestors, Queens, Sentries, Phoenixes and other HTs.
Given that Storm is amazing vs. Gateway units, Terran bio, and basically all Zerg ground except Ultras and well-microed Roaches with tunneling claws...
The number of units that HTs aren't useful against is very small. Its just, prior to this patch, literally the only units in the entire Terran arsenal which weren't owned by HTs were Ghosts (who make for interesting micro battles with HTs), Vikings and Thors.
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can anyone play on eu servers? I get desync whenever any game starts.
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people caring about team games balance... ffs... HT and VR big nerf vs reaper nerf vs no nerf?
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lol... owned.. this just proves there's so many people who post in these threads that have like NO idea what they are talking about.. to say "show me one major tournament where toss has won or been in finals" like RIGHT after toss just dominated MLG Raleigh (1st, 2nd AND 3rd LOL).. seriously people get a clue before you post about balance etc..
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My answer to all the qq.
1. Feedback nerf.
QQ: OMG WHAT WILL TOSS DO VS THOR AND CORRUPTOR??
Answer: Wtf do you do against colossi/ultra or vikings? Oh yeah, immortals, phoenix and the occasional void. Maybe you've forgotten, but immortals basically hard counter thors. And stalkers still own corruptors, due do corruptors, you know, not being able to hit ground.
2. Supply/rax nerf.
QQ: OMG MAKES T JUST LIKE P!! KILLS ALL CHEESE ATTEMPTS!!
Answer: Wtf do toss do to cheese then? And it doesn't make them the same, its not like we need a supply depot to power the farking rax, it just makes the openings the same. Just start a depot a little early, send your proxy rax scv in and your golden.
3. Reaper nitro packs.
QQ: OMG REAPERS ARE WORTHLESS NOW!!!
Answer: How often do pros go all in reaper? Most early reaper harass does most of its damage before the research finishes anyways. This nerf just makes it so reapers aren't so game ending. They still murder your entire mineral line if you let them get in behind your defense, they just won't be getting away so easily if you do catch them. It didn't destroy the reaper, it just made them game-changers instead of game-enders.
4. OMG rauder still isn't nerfed wake up Blizzard!!!
Answer: See building hp buff. And that was really the big rauder complaint that made sense, that a 4 rauder medivac drop could drop a nexus almost before units could be warped in to protect it. They aren't exactly marine cheap, don't shoot air, and get owned by lings. They're good, but they really aren't op. What exactly would t have vs roach and stalker without them?
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option, which handicapped all builds from every race to always having enough AA to fend off a few voids, something no other unit did to that extent. Now they, like the reapers are less of game-enders, and more of game-changers. They now are more useful uncharged, meaning they are practical close-support units, and harass options instead of people just viewing them as all-ins. The speed change was a little uncalled for imo, but I'll see how it plays out before I QQ. They still outrun vikings when upgraded, so I don't get the extensive QQ.
6. Nonsensical anguish for no reason.
QQ: OMG "X" IS WORHTLESS!! OMG BACK TO WARCRAFT FOR ME!!
Answer; Don't let the door bruise your butt on the way out.
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On October 16 2010 02:36 hoovehand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 01:00 bashalisk wrote:On October 15 2010 03:29 Yaotzin wrote:
P has no issues lategame..honestly yes, if you let the T get mass cattlebruisers you kinda deserve to die. And remember they got nerfed too, stalkers should do OK against them. Protoss air is vomit-inducing. To the Protoss player. And upgraded VRs can't run away from Vikings post-patch. Let me repeat that. Can't. please elaborate.
It's quite simple really. Protoss air is atrocious. How so many units could cost so much gas and take so long to build and still be so horrible in combat is beyond reasoning.
The carrier takes 120 seconds, 30 longer to build than the cattlebruiser and yet they are raped by..... Corruptors, vikings, BC's and previously void rays which now have literally no use. It would have honestly been better if blizzard removed void rays from the game entirely since they are literally only useable against mass ground to ground armies. Phoenixes can't beat anything except for mutalisks, and even then dedicating resources to phoenixes makes it almost impossible to have a large enough ground army to defend the multiple bases you need to have to support mass Phoenixes. Luckily you can harass with them so they are a decent unit.
AND since blizzard decided to cut more than a third of the void rays charged damage down, void rays are completely useless in combat, and considerably less effective at harassment.
EDIT: Just tested it they still outrun vikings so never mind the speed part.
I don't really use void rays in the first place except to harrass on desert oasis but the nerf really seems like blizzard appeasing lower skill players. Which is fine, im sure it was hard for people to deal with void rays at lower levels.
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On October 16 2010 03:26 Euronyme wrote:
Was high templar feedback that overpowered against terran and zerg that they had to make the feedback spell useless?
Why keep things that are completely useless?
Just remove feedback and the reaper and replace it with something useful.
toss is already the weakest race in tournaments, and high templars take like an hour longer to get than thors and corruptors..
ah well guess that we'll be buffed up again if it turns out toss got nerfed to the ground.
I think the Thor change makes sense. Thor's energy bar was nothing more than a liability as no one ever researched strike cannon, it was frequently cited as one of the most useless abilities in the game. Why should Thor be susceptible to feedback for it's one ability that wasn't even good enough to research? Your Thors would all be lumbering around with full energy, making them practically useless against Protoss.
I kind of agree about the reaper though, it was clearly a poorly designed unit given the amount of nerfs it has required. Nitro packs may now be the most useless upgrade considering the timing at which it comes online.
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On October 16 2010 03:51 Sm3agol wrote:
My answer to all the qq.
1. Feedback nerf.
QQ: OMG WHAT WILL TOSS DO VS THOR AND CORRUPTOR??
Answer: Wtf do you do against colossi/ultra or vikings? Oh yeah, immortals, phoenix and the occasional void. Maybe you've forgotten, but immortals basically hard counter thors. And stalkers still own corruptors, due do corruptors, you know, not being able to hit ground.
2. Supply/rax nerf.
QQ: OMG MAKES T JUST LIKE P!! KILLS ALL CHEESE ATTEMPTS!!
Answer: Wtf do toss do to cheese then? And it doesn't make them the same, its not like we need a supply depot to power the farking rax, it just makes the openings the same. Just start a depot a little early, send your proxy rax scv in and your golden.
3. Reaper nitro packs.
QQ: OMG REAPERS ARE WORTHLESS NOW!!!
Answer: How often do pros go all in reaper? Most early reaper harass does most of its damage before the research finishes anyways. This nerf just makes it so reapers aren't so game ending. They still murder your entire mineral line if you let them get in behind your defense, they just won't be getting away so easily if you do catch them. It didn't destroy the reaper, it just made them game-changers instead of game-enders.
4. OMG rauder still isn't nerfed wake up Blizzard!!!
Answer: See building hp buff. And that was really the big rauder complaint that made sense, that a 4 rauder medivac drop could drop a nexus almost before units could be warped in to protect it. They aren't exactly marine cheap, don't shoot air, and get owned by lings. They're good, but they really aren't op. What exactly would t have vs roach and stalker without them?
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option, which handicapped all builds from every race to always having enough AA to fend off a few voids, something no other unit did to that extent. Now they, like the reapers are less of game-enders, and more of game-changers. They now are more useful uncharged, meaning they are practical close-support units, and harass options instead of people just viewing them as all-ins. The speed change was a little uncalled for imo, but I'll see how it plays out before I QQ. They still outrun vikings when upgraded, so I don't get the extensive QQ.
6. Nonsensical anguish for no reason.
QQ: OMG "X" IS WORHTLESS!! OMG BACK TO WARCRAFT FOR ME!!
Answer; Don't let the door bruise your butt on the way out.
Agree and disagree.
Some questionable points.
Immortals don't beat colossi in PvP, it just doesn't work out that way. Yes Immortals can beat thors unit to unit, but it is the other units in terrans army comp (marines) that have always made immortals so useless in PvT. A range 6 unit that can focus fire the immortals shield down in a few seconds dramatically reduces the effect of the immortal. I dont mind having to combat thors, but I would like more than one option. Since protoss air is depressing immortals are now a must make.
As for not nerfing marauders, the most common problem toss players had with marauders wasn't the 4 marauder drop (which was B.S.) but was the fact that the marauder utterly dominated both of their early gate combat units. The only way to reliably beat marauders was to trap them and let zealots get close. If forcefield was an ability with a 10 second CD it wouldn't be so hard, but it takes 50 energy. And it is required to beat mass marauders until immortals can be built.
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[/QUOTE]
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/leagues/626_MLG_Raleigh
You are welcome.[/QUOTE]
lol... owned.. this just proves there's so many people who post in these threads that have like NO idea what they are talking about.. to say "show me one major tournament where toss has won or been in finals" like RIGHT after toss just dominated MLG Raleigh (1st, 2nd AND 3rd LOL).. seriously people get a clue before you post about balance etc..[/QUOTE]
if u bothered read a lil more before you start the cheering i was talking about lately - thus recently tournaments .
fyi that one was from august are to show me something recently as well and not somehting 2 patches ago ;p
Its not actually balancing argument but the fact remains toss hasnt win and prolly neither reach the finals in any recently major tournaments inclulding gsl1 and intel extreme masters and it gets nerfed yet again .
these arent battlenet forums and players should have look at the bigger picture than lower than diamond - dare i say lower than pro leagues.
it doesnt really matter whats happening in gold or plat league and trying balancing upon that total screwes up competitive pro gaming imo and thats what blizzard is doing.
which is funny since blizzard is avid supporters of e sport community but as a fan seeing all finals beeing TvTs is getting repetative and boring and this patch will only reinforces that
Gsl2 is the major event everyone is looking for and we have 28 terrans which is like 40% more representation that gsl1 - if gsl2 is the best of the best it doesnt seem right .
About roach buffs is good like any buff but some making a rly big fuss over 1 range .
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On October 16 2010 03:51 Sm3agol wrote:
My answer to all the qq.
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option
So are banshees, so are mutas, so are DTs
"All races" VRs are marginally used in PvP, and like not used at all vs Zerg.-_-
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On October 16 2010 04:10 bobcat wrote:
As for not nerfing marauders, the most common problem toss players had with marauders wasn't the 4 marauder drop (which was B.S.) but was the fact that the marauder utterly dominated both of their early gate combat units. The only way to reliably beat marauders was to trap them and let zealots get close. If forcefield was an ability with a 10 second CD it wouldn't be so hard, but it takes 50 energy. And it is required to beat mass marauders until immortals can be built.
The 4 rauder drop was the more imbalanced tactic because it was bs against ALL races.
The rauder "countering" every single toss gateway unit is slightly inaccurate. Because not only do they certainly not hard counter lots without kiting micro, but (cheap)sentries with a few nice FFs will turn your lots from being hard countered by rauders into units that hard counter rauders. Although I do agree that sentries could use a cooldown timer instead of energy.
I myself would be in favor of removing energy entirely from the game and replacing it with cooldown timers.
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On October 16 2010 04:19 SwaY- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 03:51 Sm3agol wrote:
My answer to all the qq.
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option
So are banshees, so are mutas, so are DTs "All races" VRs are marginally used in PvP, and like not used at all vs Zerg.-_-
No, first of all, banshees, mutas, and DTs don't take down buildings anywhere near as fast as voids could. And shees and DTs are game-changers that a single scan/overseer/observer can drastically switch in the other direction.
Also -
Shees can't shoot air, so ANY air unit that shoots air (as in, every other air unit in existence) HARD counters it.
Dts are glass cannons in the truest sense. If you have detection, which, again, usually can be gotten in a half-minute or so at the latest, they are the most useless unit in the game.
Mutas are expensive and are quite fragile as well, not to mention they were the only decent zerg unit for a while, so everyone pretty much assumes a zerg is going to have mutas. And two of them can't charge up and dominate every single unit in existence.
Voids were imbalanced in the fact that not only were they quick game enders, but also weren't really countered by anything.
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On October 16 2010 03:51 Sm3agol wrote:
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option, which handicapped all builds from every race to always having enough AA to fend off a few voids, something no other unit did to that extent.
6. Nonsensical anguish for no reason.
QQ: OMG "X" IS WORHTLESS!! OMG BACK TO WARCRAFT FOR ME!!
Answer; Don't let the door bruise your butt on the way out.
*cough*cloaked banshees*cough*
Im not really complaining about the VR nerf since i never really use them anyway, but if thats why void rays needed a nerf the banshees need it twice as much. Not only are you forced to get significant AA early, you are also forced to get detection, and really you are forced to get mobile detection, so its protoss in particular to go down a certain tech path, and forces zerg to get lair.
at least void rays affected every race equally, where as cloaked banshees are much easier to deal with in a mirror match up then any other
I completely agree with point 6 though.
On October 16 2010 04:32 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 04:19 SwaY- wrote:On October 16 2010 03:51 Sm3agol wrote:
My answer to all the qq.
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option
So are banshees, so are mutas, so are DTs "All races" VRs are marginally used in PvP, and like not used at all vs Zerg.-_- No, first of all, banshees, mutas, and DTs don't take down buildings anywhere near as fast as voids could. And shees and DTs are game-changers that a single scan/overseer/observer can drastically switch in the other direction. Also - Shees can't shoot air, so ANY air unit that shoots air (as in, every other air unit in existence) HARD counters it. Dts are glass cannons in the truest sense. If you have detection, which, again, usually can be gotten in a half-minute or so at the latest, they are the most useless unit in the game. Mutas are expensive and are quite fragile as well, not to mention they were the only decent zerg unit for a while, so everyone pretty much assumes a zerg is going to have mutas. And two of them can't charge up and dominate every single unit in existence. Voids were imbalanced in the fact that not only were they quick game enders, but also weren't really countered by anything.
First of all, who needs to take down the buildings when you can kill all their workers. Its just as much of a game ender.
You are right, banshees cant shoot air, but unfortunately for protoss air is a completely different tech path from detection, so you need to spend 150/150+150/100 to get the air and either 200/100+50/100 or a forge and a million(4-5) cannons to cover your whole base with detection, and if you go the cannon route you still cant leave your base or the banshees will just pick off all your units.
I dont play zerg, but it seems like getting lair+spire+muta+overseer (400 gas right there for just 1 muta) would be pretty dire.
And in both of these cases you need to be sprinting to air from the start of the game and opening your self up to all kinda of rax pressure builds.
I agree with you about DTs being glass cannons, and they are far far less mobile then banshees, and can be attacked by any unit with a ground attack(read every ground unit in game)
and for mutas to be effective you really need to have large numbers, you never auto-win a game with the first round of muta, but you can auto-win off 1 banshee (or 1 VR pre patch)
Try playing zerg/protoss and say that banshees arn't quick game enders. Terran can just scan and problem solved, or at least it forces the banshees away for a bit. If a protoss went ANYTHING other then a decently fast robo they lose instantly, if the zerg didn't hit tier 2 in the first 7 min they lose instantly.
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On October 16 2010 02:49 mati wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 01:51 AlexuGoku wrote:
I want to say only one thing: a factory requirement on reaper speed is stupid. Not in the sense of balance, but logic. If you want a building requirement, make it an engineering bay.
Not really a real issue, but it really bothers me. I guess its to get a easy transition "Reaper - Hellion" wich were uses in similar porpouses. But i would rather EB instedtead... Now its to "gassy"
I didn't thought of that, and you're right. So if you make an EB instead, the reaper rush, although pretty late, would still be effective (maybe not harras the main, but the expansion), because of the less gas.
But no point in discussing this, we have to deal with it.
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EDIT: i was making the same point as "Sm3agol", so i edit mine to not make double argument the same.
VR harras was way more powerfull than mutas, banshees... butttttt.... i still belive banshees are a bit OP  , as zerg i dont ussualy go for fast lair tho (it messes up my macro to much), i just get a Evo n 1 spore on each base (the detection range is much wider than the attack one), so i can save some gas...
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On October 16 2010 04:32 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 04:19 SwaY- wrote:On October 16 2010 03:51 Sm3agol wrote:
My answer to all the qq.
5. Void "nerf"
Answer: They were too strong. They were a "don't scout it, you insta-lose" toss option
So are banshees, so are mutas, so are DTs "All races" VRs are marginally used in PvP, and like not used at all vs Zerg.-_- Voids were imbalanced in the fact that not only were they quick game enders, but also weren't really countered by anything.
Voids are countered by marines + stim pretty easily
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wow im really curious to see how T are competing in the future. lots of nerfs in the last few months...
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EPT
