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On October 16 2010 00:31 Crichton wrote:Show nested quote +VR still own queens, and i seen VR in main armys now.. they are still pretty decent (still didnt see a real game of toss having to deal with ultras with VR nerf) Really? I just played a 2v2 where 4 charged VRs died to 4 Queens (not even using Transfuse). They certainly would have won the battle before the patch.
i dont like the nerf on void, but... yes
1 VR beat 1 Queen... And if the zerg got 4 queen you can assume it was mainly for AA, and why is bad that a "Anti Air" tactic manage to win to a "Air attack"?
***
BTW i cant stop making roaches ^-^, im so happy about them, lol :p
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On October 15 2010 22:44 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +
WTF???? Energy bar of Corruptor removed???
How to beat them now in PvZ???
I loved to feedback them, but now there's nothing to do against them...
What do you do against vikings? Note that Vikings have greater range and are much more versatile than corruptors. Am I the only Zerg player confused about toss players QQ'in this? I've always had difficulty against Colos, especially in team games, and this change will finally make Corruptors a somewhat viable counter.
The problem now is that mass roach/infestor kills any toss ground army pretty easily. People say immortals counter roaches, which sounds fine in theory, but in the games I've played I don't actually find them cost effective anymore, they remain fairly immobile and are now harder to properly position. Mid-late game countering big roach/infestor armies is really quite difficult.
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All terran has to do now is rush out a Thor, bring some marines along with for support and 5-6 SCV and before you can even have storm up it is GG. Tried and tested - if you spot quick factory w/ tech and armory and you rush to get storm you cannot have it in time and since zealots will just run around the thor trying to attack it instead of killing SCV and it is next impossible to target SCV due to the Thor model being so big PvT matches are fucked once this becomes the new early MM push.
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On October 16 2010 00:40 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 22:44 c0ldfusion wrote:
WTF???? Energy bar of Corruptor removed???
How to beat them now in PvZ???
I loved to feedback them, but now there's nothing to do against them...
What do you do against vikings? Note that Vikings have greater range and are much more versatile than corruptors. Am I the only Zerg player confused about toss players QQ'in this? I've always had difficulty against Colos, especially in team games, and this change will finally make Corruptors a somewhat viable counter. The problem now is that mass roach/infestor kills any toss ground army pretty easily. People say immortals counter roaches, which sounds fine in theory, but in the games I've played I don't actually find them cost effective anymore, they remain fairly immobile and are now harder to properly position. Mid-late game countering big roach/infestor armies is really quite difficult.
true, just got 3-4 game like this... mass roaches (with a few zerlings) beat the hell out of stalkers zealot immortal ball (or at least give a really good fight)... But Sentries Force Field well played give the adv to protoss... You will need some more intensive micro i guess, wich ultimatly is good. Better micro, equal Better Player, equal he diserve to win because of that, and not just because the game let you to "A - Click"
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On October 16 2010 00:40 Reborn58 wrote:
All terran has to do now is rush out a Thor, bring some marines along with for support and 5-6 SCV and before you can even have storm up it is GG. Tried and tested - if you spot quick factory w/ tech and armory and you rush to get storm you cannot have it in time and since zealots will just run around the thor trying to attack it instead of killing SCV and it is next impossible to target SCV due to the Thor model being so big PvT matches are fucked once this becomes the new early MM push.
From what I know, Terran are still vulnerable to early rushes, especially with the thor rush because of the teching involved. You could probably get out a small force of zealots and stalkers before the first Thor came out, which could hinder their progress if they don't have much in the way of defenses.
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If toss does seem to lose to much to zerg now post patch (we will see) I hope the raise the immortal range to 6.
Its always bothered me that every unit the immortal is supposed to counter has a longer range than it does (except for the roach, but its getting closer!), and its not exactly a fast unit.
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It seems to me that with the VR neft, the iEchoic hellion drop into banshee into BC vs protoss is going to be a lot more viable now, as the transition into a BC lategame off 2 ports is highly convenient.
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On October 15 2010 03:29 Yaotzin wrote:
P has no issues lategame..honestly yes, if you let the T get mass cattlebruisers you kinda deserve to die. And remember they got nerfed too, stalkers should do OK against them. Protoss air is vomit-inducing. To the Protoss player. And upgraded VRs can't run away from Vikings post-patch. Let me repeat that. Can't.
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On October 16 2010 00:45 mati wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 00:40 citi.zen wrote:On October 15 2010 22:44 c0ldfusion wrote:
WTF???? Energy bar of Corruptor removed???
How to beat them now in PvZ???
I loved to feedback them, but now there's nothing to do against them...
What do you do against vikings? Note that Vikings have greater range and are much more versatile than corruptors. Am I the only Zerg player confused about toss players QQ'in this? I've always had difficulty against Colos, especially in team games, and this change will finally make Corruptors a somewhat viable counter. The problem now is that mass roach/infestor kills any toss ground army pretty easily. People say immortals counter roaches, which sounds fine in theory, but in the games I've played I don't actually find them cost effective anymore, they remain fairly immobile and are now harder to properly position. Mid-late game countering big roach/infestor armies is really quite difficult. true, just got 3-4 game like this... mass roaches (with a few zerlings) beat the hell out of stalkers zealot immortal ball (or at least give a really good fight)... But Sentries Force Field well played give the adv to protoss... You will need some more intensive micro i guess, wich ultimatly is good. Better micro, equal Better Player, equal he diserve to win because of that, and not just because the game let you to "A - Click"
Agreed, sentries are key but hard to get off vs. decent fungal. You also can't chase a retreating Z and there's always the threat of an instant tech switch. Right now the mid-late PvZ just feels wrong but I guess we will see some new starts eventually, the patch hasn't been out for very long.
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On October 16 2010 00:40 Reborn58 wrote:
All terran has to do now is rush out a Thor, bring some marines along with for support and 5-6 SCV and before you can even have storm up it is GG. Tried and tested - if you spot quick factory w/ tech and armory and you rush to get storm you cannot have it in time and since zealots will just run around the thor trying to attack it instead of killing SCV and it is next impossible to target SCV due to the Thor model being so big PvT matches are fucked once this becomes the new early MM push.
never heard that before
or, instead of trying to tech up after he already did, you can just make 2 more immortals and focus the thor down
i had no problem with that
tried and tested. because that makes what i said so much more leet
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I loved feedbacking Thors, but prepatch PvT it felt like you could either storm a unit, feedback a unit, or it was a tank.
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On October 16 2010 01:00 megagoten wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 00:40 Reborn58 wrote:
All terran has to do now is rush out a Thor, bring some marines along with for support and 5-6 SCV and before you can even have storm up it is GG. Tried and tested - if you spot quick factory w/ tech and armory and you rush to get storm you cannot have it in time and since zealots will just run around the thor trying to attack it instead of killing SCV and it is next impossible to target SCV due to the Thor model being so big PvT matches are fucked once this becomes the new early MM push. never heard that before or, instead of trying to tech up after he already did, you can just make 2 more immortals and focus the thor down i had no problem with that tried and tested. because that makes what i said so much more leet
How exactly did you "focus the thor down", considering the marines kill your immortal in seconds and all dmg you did to the thor is nullified by the healing SCVs?
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On October 16 2010 01:00 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 00:45 mati wrote:On October 16 2010 00:40 citi.zen wrote:On October 15 2010 22:44 c0ldfusion wrote:
WTF???? Energy bar of Corruptor removed???
How to beat them now in PvZ???
I loved to feedback them, but now there's nothing to do against them...
What do you do against vikings? Note that Vikings have greater range and are much more versatile than corruptors. Am I the only Zerg player confused about toss players QQ'in this? I've always had difficulty against Colos, especially in team games, and this change will finally make Corruptors a somewhat viable counter. The problem now is that mass roach/infestor kills any toss ground army pretty easily. People say immortals counter roaches, which sounds fine in theory, but in the games I've played I don't actually find them cost effective anymore, they remain fairly immobile and are now harder to properly position. Mid-late game countering big roach/infestor armies is really quite difficult. true, just got 3-4 game like this... mass roaches (with a few zerlings) beat the hell out of stalkers zealot immortal ball (or at least give a really good fight)... But Sentries Force Field well played give the adv to protoss... You will need some more intensive micro i guess, wich ultimatly is good. Better micro, equal Better Player, equal he diserve to win because of that, and not just because the game let you to "A - Click" Agreed, sentries are key but hard to get off vs. decent fungal. You also can't chase a retreating Z and there's always the threat of an instant tech switch. Right now the mid-late PvZ just feels wrong but I guess we will see some new starts eventually, the patch hasn't been out for very long.
remember infestor are really high on gas, he cant go all at once (unless he is on 4-5 bases). More Infestor = Less Mutas/Corruptors, so you can get 3-4 colossus to ran safe and pretty much own every zerg ground unit but the roach, wich alone pre patch fail so bad vs stalkers that they really didnt worth the effort.
I agree on your last point tho, its to early to jump into conclussion, it need more time of gamming. I think chargelots could be a solution, after colossus clean zerlings/hydras so they can reach them... Roach got less dps n life than Zealot
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Key word was lately this tournament was in august ffs.
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I want to say only one thing: a factory requirement on reaper speed is stupid. Not in the sense of balance, but logic. If you want a building requirement, make it an engineering bay.
Not really a real issue, but it really bothers me.
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On October 16 2010 01:00 bashalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 03:29 Yaotzin wrote:
P has no issues lategame..honestly yes, if you let the T get mass cattlebruisers you kinda deserve to die. And remember they got nerfed too, stalkers should do OK against them. Protoss air is vomit-inducing. To the Protoss player. And upgraded VRs can't run away from Vikings post-patch. Let me repeat that. Can't.
Voids with Flux Vanes are 2.95, Vikings are 2.75. Please don't spread misinformation.
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On October 16 2010 01:14 Sockso wrote:
I loved feedbacking Thors, but prepatch PvT it felt like you could either storm a unit, feedback a unit, or it was a tank.
Awesome quote man.
Yeah, I was mulling over how to do mech in TvP and transition out of MMM so this provides something mech that usable against toss that doesn't die to everything.
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I, as a zerg/terran player, think the patch looks great. The only change I am a little bit sceptic about is the Void Ray change. I did believe that they needed a change but this looks to be a little bit to much. I would rather have seen something smaller, like them losing their charge when moving.
On October 16 2010 00:49 Karas wrote:
If toss does seem to lose to much to zerg now post patch (we will see) I hope the raise the immortal range to 6.
Its always bothered me that every unit the immortal is supposed to counter has a longer range than it does (except for the roach, but its getting closer!), and its not exactly a fast unit.
Yeah, and after the immortal range buff they should give banelings longer range since everything they are supposed to counter outranges them and many of the units outruns them as well...
Since every unit has a counter you can't expect it to have longer range than the units it counters.
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I haven't tested void vs queen in game, but the math of it says that the void ray will take 4 hits longer to kill the queen (if it can) or 2.4 seconds longer than before.
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I don't understand the sentiment that with the changes all of a sudden the sweet VR micro we have seen will disappear. While the damages have been made more similar vs light, against heavy the 2nd charge still does a massive 6more dmg, which is 60% more than charge 1.
What this means for micro?
1. Not microing is still stupid. You just 1a yours without charge and i'll micro to keep mine up and you'll still get rolled... just not as fast as before (and if anyone thinks it wasn't killing too fast before than I don't even know what to say b/c that is absurd).
2. It stands to INCREASE micro in the sense unit targetting is more important now. Rather than just having it auto-attack the enem army, it now becomes more important to FF heavy units to get the full effects of the VR. Granted, it still did more before the nerf, the fact is they are less cost-effective now with the dmg nerf so doing something like this would be more necessary to keep them relevant. They are still far too good to just deem "useless" because they no longer have the best dps in the game.
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EPT
