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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
On October 16 2010 01:00 bashalisk wrote: Protoss air is vomit-inducing. To the Protoss player. And upgraded VRs can't run away from Vikings post-patch. Let me repeat that. Can't. please elaborate. | ||
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PTZ.
72 Posts
As a protoss player, I'm really excited for the VR nerf. Being an average player, if I fail to scout VRs flying (yes, flying and not just making) they would typically destroy all my base/nexuses before I can retreat my troops to defend. Glad to see this was a bit mitigated. I'm also really excited about the Nexus hp/shields buff. I'm not sure why but it just makes me very excited  . | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
if you can macro 4+ collosi hes going to have to have a hell of a roach ball or you're going to have to have a massive blunder for him to stop your push. | ||
mati
Argentina114 Posts
On October 16 2010 01:51 AlexuGoku wrote: I want to say only one thing: a factory requirement on reaper speed is stupid. Not in the sense of balance, but logic. If you want a building requirement, make it an engineering bay. Not really a real issue, but it really bothers me. I guess its to get a easy transition "Reaper - Hellion" wich were uses in similar porpouses. But i would rather EB instedtead... Now its to "gassy" | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On October 16 2010 01:45 st3roids wrote: Key word was lately this tournament was in august ffs You said MAJOR tournament. There has been MLG and GSL. What else do you consider major? | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
There has been MLG and GSL. What else do you consider major? IEM was pretty big. But that didn't even have any Zerg, so if you're pulling balance info from that, then Zerg look a lot worse than Toss. | ||
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Dekker
Germany169 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On October 16 2010 00:31 Crichton wrote: Really? I just played a 2v2 where 4 charged VRs died to 4 Queens (not even using Transfuse). They certainly would have won the battle before the patch. I've killed 4 VRs with 4 queens even pre-patch. It's heavily dependent on Transfusion micro. Queens are awesome in numbers. I was wondering about 1v1 though, where no transfusion is available and what commonly happens in a VR cheese situation. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 16 2010 03:01 DoubleReed wrote: I've killed 4 VRs with 4 queens even pre-patch. It's heavily dependent on Transfusion micro. Queens are awesome in numbers. I was wondering about 1v1 though, where no transfusion is available and what commonly happens in a VR cheese situation. tbh I for that matter have never, ever used void rays to harass vs zerg; highly situational, hell, the outcome could depend upon queens beeing able to transfuse one more time.... nevertheless - as plexa has stated very early, very correctly - this is a HUGE protoss lategame-nerf; vs broodlords protoss pretty much needs void rays, since everything else can't get through the broodling-wall once broodlords have reached a critical mass; now charged-damage-nerf means void rays won't do enough damage before hydras kill them AND speed-nerf means void rays can't (ab-)use their speed advantage; one of these two nerfs would've sufficed to make void rays weaker vs zerg late game.....both of them means I probably won't bother getting them ever and take my chances with fully upgraded blink-stalkers | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
I was Plat and recently dropped to Gold. People were saying balance doesn't affect the lower levels, and I always knew that was complete horseshit. An imbalanced game means it's harder to win as one race... doesn't really matter how much better some people are, the point is, at any level, you didn't have to outplay a Zerg to win against them. I have gone 22-6 since the patch. I'm finally beating people who play significantly worse than me. I really think this fixed our early game for the most part. The only issue that sticks out as a big balance problem, to me, is Mass Thor/Hellion and Thor/repair. I'm glad they didn't try to address these things yet though, this is enough changes for one patch. (Though honestly, they need to put threat on repairing SCVs and/or nerf repair somehow) The void ray change is exactly what I said it should be. Pre patch, Void Rays are a weak, crappy unit when uncharged -- which isn't right for the price you pay. They then become the most monstrous of all units when they get charged. It's too big of a discrepancy and I've been saying for a while now that they need to buff the base damage and nerf the cap. I think it's a great change, still it is a very good unit, still it is good to get it charged, but A) It's actually useful uncharged, at least a little bit. And B) It's not so devastating that nothing counters it once charged. (But still quite powerful!) Minor Terran tweaks seem in line. For all the crying about it, Protoss has had to build their supply before Gateway forever. It's silly IMO that Terrans are making such a big deal over it, you still have plenty of early aggression options, the only thing lost is the build that kills Zerg straight up without any skill if they happened to FE. The nerf to Medivacs seems really really light, but perfectly reasonable. It's not going to be enough to make you not want to build Medivacs I think, but it will make them a little more manageable. No other race can heal so much like that, and T already has probably the most cost effective general army. So we'll have to see how that affects things. Just my opinions don't mean to offend anyone over them :p But the game is getting closer to balanced faster than I thought it would! | ||
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markim
Cook Islands17 Posts
I can see all those complaints on bnet forum are made by scrubs. Voidrays Really? you can't stop voidrays 1on1? If you're as good as you keep telling yourself you are, then it shouldn't be a problem. Unless you slack off on your scouting ala idra at GSL. Reapers At what point of the game do we usually see upgrade Reapers? Early, yes. Again, I can see a scrub getting reaper rushed by a good player doing placement matches. Depo before Rax Terran, Protos, and Zerg are 3 DIFFERENT races and deserves deviating mechanivs. Uh seriously, there's nothing wrong with this. I'm a protoss and we do this all the time uh duh Well why don't they change it so that evo before pool then huh? Well, young scrub, they won't because that would be ludicrous. + Show Spoiler + albeit the way it's going now, we'll just have to keep on complaining then it's bounf to happen. I won't touch on the unintended "double nerfs" that came with this. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On October 16 2010 01:14 Ezze wrote: How exactly did you "focus the thor down", considering the marines kill your immortal in seconds and all dmg you did to the thor is nullified by the healing SCVs? 2 or 3 immortals will destroy a thor, no matter how many scvs will repair it. Their dps vs armored is here for that, no need for storm, juste make 2 or 3 immos. TLDR : you're QQ ing for no reason (we'll, the "no reason" part is what makes it QQing I guess) | ||
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bashalisk
102 Posts
On October 15 2010 03:30 SpaceYeti wrote: So....will TvP see 250 cannons vs Colossi now that the feedback threat is removed? What feedback threat? Have you heard of Ghosts? The deal was (still is) that one can't catch up with Colossi with Thors. @hoovehand: Liquid`Tyler put it better than I could have. Post #150 in this thread. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
nevertheless - as plexa has stated very early, very correctly - this is a HUGE protoss lategame-nerf; vs broodlords protoss pretty much needs void rays, since everything else can't get through the broodling-wall once broodlords have reached a critical mass; now charged-damage-nerf means void rays won't do enough damage before hydras kill them AND speed-nerf means void rays can't (ab-)use their speed advantage; one of these two nerfs would've sufficed to make void rays weaker vs zerg late game.....both of them means I probably won't bother getting them ever and take my chances with fully upgraded blink-stalkers I'm not sure what specific situations you are talking about. VRs still kill broodlords, and then you bring in hydralisks and other things. There are obviously things you can do in the situation you describe because if BLs are involved then so are carriers, high templar, colossi, and motherships. You really can't make sweeping generalizations like that yet. And speedy void rays just looked silly. It was way too dramatic an upgrade. | ||
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kublikhan
4 Posts
On October 15 2010 04:00 J7S wrote: lol! that was great The little zergling in my chest is very happy.  happy zergling in chest | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
On October 16 2010 03:14 markim wrote: Why the hell is Blizzard basing this patch on lower leagues and team games? You start to wonder who's making these patches and what their grasp of the game is in terms of actual gameplay. I can see all those complaints on bnet forum are made by scrubs. Voidrays Really? you can't stop voidrays 1on1? If you're as good as you keep telling yourself you are, then it shouldn't be a problem. Unless you slack off on your scouting ala idra at GSL. Reapers At what point of the game do we usually see upgrade Reapers? Early, yes. Again, I can see a scrub getting reaper rushed by a good player doing placement matches. Depo before Rax Terran, Protos, and Zerg are 3 DIFFERENT races and deserves deviating mechanivs. Uh seriously, there's nothing wrong with this. I'm a protoss and we do this all the time uh duh Well why don't they change it so that evo before pool then huh? Well, young scrub, they won't because that would be ludicrous. + Show Spoiler + albeit the way it's going now, we'll just have to keep on complaining then it's bounf to happen. I won't touch on the unintended "double nerfs" that came with this. What?! Your claims that have no basis in reality. -Void Rays won a couple GSL games and a lot of other pro games. They are an EXTREMELY powerful unit once charged at ALL levels of play. Saying that they aren't good is just absolutely ridiculous. Someone once made a topic with some math claiming that a charged void ray was _THE_ most cost effective unit in the game, it lacked ANY unit that could kill it for less cost if it was already charged. I'm not sure if that's true as I have not run the math, but it's damn close. The pros are good at getting it charged and keeping it that way, and I think the Void Ray is such an interesting unit requiring careful micro. -Reapers were an effective strategy at the highest level against Zerg. Zerg has basically figured out how to beat it by now though, I think Hellions are the bigger issue. Still with good micro it is a powerful build, acting like only n00bs lose to it is elitist and ignorant. -Evo before pool doesn't make sense. Evo doesn't provide supply. The equivalent would be requiring a second overlord before pool, which you do anyway if you're not all-in. I wouldn't care if they did that, I never make a pool before 13 anyway. Just wait to see how it plays out. You have a hostile attitude about it all but your views on what strategies work are twisted, these things ARE powerful at the highest level of play. If you don't think they know what they are talking about, they have access to ALL the data of ALL games played, they can obviously SEE what the real problems are a lot better than some random forum scrub. I may be a gold player, but I am not speaking from my own experience. I watch a lot of pro games, I see a lot of strategies, and I know for a fact these things have been quite effective at the highest level of play. | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
On October 16 2010 03:06 sleepingdog wrote: nevertheless - as plexa has stated very early, very correctly - this is a HUGE protoss lategame-nerf; vs broodlords protoss pretty much needs void rays, since everything else can't get through the broodling-wall once broodlords have reached a critical mass; now charged-damage-nerf means void rays won't do enough damage before hydras kill them AND speed-nerf means void rays can't (ab-)use their speed advantage; one of these two nerfs would've sufficed to make void rays weaker vs zerg late game.....both of them means I probably won't bother getting them ever and take my chances with fully upgraded blink-stalkers Won't the VRs now do MORE damage in the window between the start of the attack and when they're killed by hydras? Assuming you start off uncharged, it takes a while for the total damage output of the old VR to beat the new VR, given the increase to the first charge level | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
Why keep things that are completely useless? Just remove feedback and the reaper and replace it with something useful. toss is already the weakest race in tournaments, and high templars take like an hour longer to get than thors and corruptors.. ah well guess that we'll be buffed up again if it turns out toss got nerfed to the ground. | ||
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Daedie
Belgium160 Posts
On October 16 2010 03:26 Euronyme wrote: Was high templar feedback that overpowered against terran and zerg that they had to make the feedback spell useless? Why keep things that are completely useless? Just remove feedback and the reaper and replace it with something useful. toss is already the weakest race in tournaments, and high templars take like an hour longer to get than thors and corruptors.. ah well guess that we'll be buffed up again if it turns out toss got nerfed to the ground. Yea, let's remove feedback. Cause it doesn't work on ANY unit now. | ||
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