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New ladder maps! - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Sylvr
Profile Joined May 2010
United States524 Posts
October 07 2010 03:41 GMT
#321


whereas in SC2 the workers go directly to the fucking minerals AND they just patched out the 7% delay. incredibly efficient workers means you need less of them.


They didn't take out the delay. They took out the ability to bypass the delay. Reread the patch notes.
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-07 03:46:28
October 07 2010 03:42 GMT
#322
doublepost x.x
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-07 03:48:24
October 07 2010 03:46 GMT
#323
On October 07 2010 12:41 vica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2010 12:36 mOnion wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:33 vica wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:28 mOnion wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:26 smegged wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:20 mOnion wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:18 smegged wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:08 Perscienter wrote:
Wrong. Old bw maps are a good new starting point. Noone says, that we should impede an evolution of that maps.


For future balance patches, it would have been vital to keep Desert Oasis in the map pool. The map statistics need to be monitored.

I've been telling this everyone since the release.


I actually do think the old ICCup maps are too big for SC2, mainly because there are less units in each race in a 200/200 army due to food cost inflation between games. For Terran in particular, holding distant positions would be nearly impossible were it not for planetary fortresses. Too much of SC2 is about critical mass armies and the game has been designed around that fact.

Having said that I'd much rather err on the side of maps that are too large than maps that are too small.


lol this makes no sense whatsoever

map control is what DEFINES this game, the fact that its harder to do as the game drags on is an element of an RTS


That is true, but what I meant is that with the food cost increases in SC2 compared to BW, forces are spread more thinly in the late game than they were in BW if you play on the same size of map.

I don't think the difference is huge, but maybe a ~20% reduction in map size might be more appropriate for SC2.

The thing is, if they were a little smaller then I really think that Blizzard might be more inclined to use them as well as for newer players they would be closer to the maps that they've already played on.


what is this food inflation you talk about? if anything there are more units on battlefield since workers mine smarter so you need less of them


This is why you don't post when you have no idea what you're talking about. In Brood War, as worker numbers increased, they got in each other's way and you lost mining time. Thus, it took a lot fewer workers to saturate a base. Mining smarter has nothing to do with mining more minerals or income.


They take away two maps most people veto, and add two maps that most people will certainly veto again. Interesting. I'm hoping it was just a slip-up on their part, and they actually meant to add two completely new maps.


would you actually like to take this to discussion on BW mechanics?

in that game you made workers ALL GAME LONG there was never any talk of "when to stop" or "what optimally saturated a base" it was all workers all the time. they didn't get in each others way at all, they just took longer to get to minerals cuz the pathing was shitty.

whereas in SC2 the workers go directly to the fucking minerals AND they just patched out the 7% delay. incredibly efficient workers means you need less of them.


They went directly to the minerals. They just didn't go BACK directly. You didn't stop simply because you took more bases. If we go into this, it extends beyond simple worker and mineral interaction, but Brood War gameplay. So we'll stop here.
On October 07 2010 12:41 Sylvr wrote:
Show nested quote +


whereas in SC2 the workers go directly to the fucking minerals AND they just patched out the 7% delay. incredibly efficient workers means you need less of them.


They didn't take out the delay. They took out the ability to bypass the delay. Reread the patch notes.


??? its incredibly obvious you dont actually know what you're talking about when you nitpick tiny little things like that

On October 07 2010 12:40 smegged wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2010 12:28 mOnion wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:26 smegged wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:20 mOnion wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:18 smegged wrote:
On October 07 2010 12:08 Perscienter wrote:
Wrong. Old bw maps are a good new starting point. Noone says, that we should impede an evolution of that maps.


For future balance patches, it would have been vital to keep Desert Oasis in the map pool. The map statistics need to be monitored.

I've been telling this everyone since the release.


I actually do think the old ICCup maps are too big for SC2, mainly because there are less units in each race in a 200/200 army due to food cost inflation between games. For Terran in particular, holding distant positions would be nearly impossible were it not for planetary fortresses. Too much of SC2 is about critical mass armies and the game has been designed around that fact.

Having said that I'd much rather err on the side of maps that are too large than maps that are too small.


lol this makes no sense whatsoever

map control is what DEFINES this game, the fact that its harder to do as the game drags on is an element of an RTS


That is true, but what I meant is that with the food cost increases in SC2 compared to BW, forces are spread more thinly in the late game than they were in BW if you play on the same size of map.

I don't think the difference is huge, but maybe a ~20% reduction in map size might be more appropriate for SC2.

The thing is, if they were a little smaller then I really think that Blizzard might be more inclined to use them as well as for newer players they would be closer to the maps that they've already played on.


what is this food inflation you talk about? if anything there are more units on battlefield since workers mine smarter so you need less of them


Many core units cost more food than their broodwar equivalents.
Siege tanks cost 3 up from 2
Hydras cost 2 up from 1
You need more workers (double the number of gas workers)
Thors cost a lot more food than goliaths (and against zerg perform a similar role)

There was also the addition of Roaches and Marauders, both of which are early game 2 food units that have no BW equivalent.


that doesn't mean anything those are just changes
zerg got roaches but lost lurker
hydra went up but there are no scourge
siege tanks are more but vulture support is traded with marine in a lot of cases
etc etc
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Genome852
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States979 Posts
October 07 2010 03:49 GMT
#324
When I saw Jungle Basin, I thought it was just an inverted Steppes of War image.

Either way, I'm happy with the change (when it comes). Desert Oasis and Kulas were my least favorite maps by far.
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-07 03:50:44
October 07 2010 03:50 GMT
#325
On October 07 2010 12:46 mOnion wrote:
??? its incredibly obvious you dont actually know what you're talking about when you nitpick tiny little things like that

that doesn't mean anything those are just changes


You said worker efficiency means less workers. I said worker efficiency does not mean anything. You argued you needed more workers to saturate a base for income. I replied you saturated faster with less workers.
There is no one like you in the universe.
Iggyhopper
Profile Joined July 2010
United States259 Posts
October 07 2010 03:50 GMT
#326
Oh my god have you compared the two gas locations on Jungle Basin? Top left clearly has disadvantage because it's open whereas bottom right's gas is a little more near the edge. Left also has more room to hide tech in the back, but it also provides more room for drops. Bottom right, your gas is going to see the drop, but top left... ????
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
October 07 2010 03:51 GMT
#327
On October 07 2010 12:49 Genome852 wrote:
When I saw Jungle Basin, I thought it was just an inverted Steppes of War image.

Either way, I'm happy with the change (when it comes). Desert Oasis and Kulas were my least favorite maps by far.


And you're about to get two new least favourite maps! How exciting!

Oh... wait.. do you play Terran?
DrakanSilva
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Chile932 Posts
October 07 2010 03:51 GMT
#328
jesus this is ridiculous...
hopefully they take them out of the ladder ASAP.
In the beginning there was nothing... and then exploded
Merikh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States918 Posts
October 07 2010 03:55 GMT
#329
Anythings better than xelnaga and delta 8D
G4MR | I mod day9, djwheat and GLHF's stream
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-07 03:56:08
October 07 2010 03:55 GMT
#330
On October 07 2010 12:50 vica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2010 12:46 mOnion wrote:
??? its incredibly obvious you dont actually know what you're talking about when you nitpick tiny little things like that

that doesn't mean anything those are just changes


You said worker efficiency means less workers. I said worker efficiency does not mean anything. You argued you needed more workers to saturate a base for income. I replied you saturated faster with less workers.


all you said was the difference between workers "getting to minerals" and "getting BACK to minerals"

then said something ambiguous and hit post
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Toxiferous
Profile Joined June 2009
United States388 Posts
October 07 2010 03:56 GMT
#331
If they are gonna keep releasing these poop maps then I demand more vetoes

I loved oasis man
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
October 07 2010 03:57 GMT
#332
Ladder map pool should just be metalopolis 8 times with different terrains!!!
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-07 03:58:19
October 07 2010 03:57 GMT
#333
DO was like my favourite map in the pool...Jungle Basin looks awful as fuck and Shakuras Plateau has a 2/3 chance of being terrible, and 1/3 chance of only being terrible against a Terran who abuses tanks.
=O
Beef Noodles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States937 Posts
October 07 2010 03:58 GMT
#334
@Subversion

I'm not arguing for the map, but on Jungle basin, as zerg why wouldn't you destroy the rocks at your nat and take the high ground 3rd?

You would be on 3 base with only 2 high ground ramps to defend. Seems reasonable.

Only problem I see is that Terran can get 3 easy bases with only 2 high ground ramps to defend as well. Going turtle-tank terran is gunna be really strong
Rev0lution
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States1805 Posts
October 07 2010 04:00 GMT
#335
More destructible rocks and Xel Naga watch towers, does blizzard really think these "strategic addons are ingenious?
My dealer is my best friend, and we don't even chill.
Merikh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States918 Posts
October 07 2010 04:00 GMT
#336
On October 07 2010 12:58 Beef Noodles wrote:
@Subversion

I'm not arguing for the map, but on Jungle basin, as zerg why wouldn't you destroy the rocks at your nat and take the high ground 3rd?

You would be on 3 base with only 2 high ground ramps to defend. Seems reasonable.

Only problem I see is that Terran can get 3 easy bases with only 2 high ground ramps to defend as well. Going turtle-tank terran is gunna be really strong


Defensive nydus with mass crawlers baby lets go!
G4MR | I mod day9, djwheat and GLHF's stream
Ojahh
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Ireland728 Posts
October 07 2010 04:00 GMT
#337
sad to see desert oasis gone, one of my favorite maps, after Metalopolis,

but Jungle Basin looks cool, from the preview, somehow never played that map as custom, will give it a couple of tries. the shakuras plateau seems an awful choice, total russian roulette
===== Barcraft Münster ===== www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282905! ////// ♥ Nyovne is the new Manifesto
smegged
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia213 Posts
October 07 2010 04:01 GMT
#338
On October 07 2010 12:58 Beef Noodles wrote:
@Subversion

I'm not arguing for the map, but on Jungle basin, as zerg why wouldn't you destroy the rocks at your nat and take the high ground 3rd?

You would be on 3 base with only 2 high ground ramps to defend. Seems reasonable.

Only problem I see is that Terran can get 3 easy bases with only 2 high ground ramps to defend as well. Going turtle-tank terran is gunna be really strong


If your opponent is pressuring you as zerg it is very difficult to kill the rocks in any reasonable amount of time.

No +armoured units as zerg = fail design when it comes to rocks.
"I'm usually happy when I can see Dark Templar, Its when I can't see them that I get angry." - Altar
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
October 07 2010 04:01 GMT
#339
They gotta add the Iccup maps.
DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
October 07 2010 04:01 GMT
#340
On October 07 2010 12:57 Shifft wrote:
DO was like my favourite map in the pool...Jungle Basin looks awful as fuck and Shakuras Plateau has a 2/3 chance of being terrible, and 1/3 chance of only being terrible against a Terran who abuses tanks.


Colossus can also abuse the cliffs to attack refineries ala Steppes of War.
Where ever you go, there you are.
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