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On October 07 2010 03:42 Fodder03 wrote:
Correct me if im wront but wasnt one of Testies aka's NTT? and if so he is not from EU he is Canadian... meaning this ISNT the real NTT?
NTT is from the Netherlands. And it's definitely him. When Warcraft 3 came out, he spent a few months raging about what a n00b-game it was on the forums and eventually dissapeared. I'm sure he will be back for Warcraft 4 / Starcraft 3 
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Most useless news i ever read on TL.
Quiting because of not being able to achieve good results even with those gimmicks looks to me like he should quit playing competitive at all.
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I was gonna do a post but then I saw Tylers and realized he just said everything I wanted to say way better, but yeah, it's basically too early to judge the game as harshly as NTT did in this one post.
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Tyler wins once again. Thanks for being so generous with your wisdom for all the noobies here Tyler. We appreciate your perspective.
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On October 07 2010 03:43 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
And if I looked at a 20 minute NTT replay, I'm sure I could point out 50+ things that he did wrong (probably because he's not fast enough). If he did 50 little things better, perhaps he could survive against whatever gimmick was thrown at him and just laugh at the player who does something that has a 99% chance to fail against someone who knows what they're doing.
Yeah, this is what I don't get. People are coming in here, acting like NTT and other have hit a ceiling, and that complete newbies are coming in and smoking them still using one strat. It's hardly the case at all
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On October 07 2010 03:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Another thing to note is that the future of e-sports is highly dependant on not just the gameplay itself, but how much fun the game is to watch. Spectators are hugely important.
(snipped the rest of your post for brevity's sake)
That's a really important point, and Tyler's post is very good as well.
I played SC1 and BW when the came out, never in a serious way though. I tried a few games on bnet and had my ass handed to me completely. This was before the era of TL.net and Day9 dailies and YouTube. The learning curve was way too high so I never got into it.
So I do appreciate the skill cap of BW (much like someone at the base of Mt. Everest appreciates its height). Obviously the game has depth as well, but it doesn't seem like SC2 is shallower.
As a spectator sport, I don't think it would be good for the game to end up with One Build To Rule Them All. SC2 seems a lot more fluid, with faster transitions and game-changing twists and turns. This makes it 100x more exciting for me to watch than BW.
I've often wondered why Idra's play seems so rigid, sticking with the same unit composition for 10-15 minutes straight, expanding like crazy to keep pumping out more of the same. I guess that's the BW paradigm. Aggressive changes in strategy weren't viable in BW, so Idra keeps pumping ever more money into a safe build.
If you look at Cool's play at GSL, it was the polar opposite of that paradigm. His mechanics are really really solid but his gameplay is much more fluid. Lose 80% of your probes to hellions and banshees? Pfft, adapt and demolish your opponent anyway. It's TLO's creativity with Idra's macro and none of the hesitation. Everything he pulls out of his bag of tricks seems practiced a hundred times over (probably because it is), but he's never set on one path.
I hope that is the future of SC2, and not the safe, rigid (albeit painstakingly hard to maintain) uberbuilds of BW. At least in the West spectacle is a major part of a sport's success.
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On October 07 2010 02:25 Mjolnir wrote:
The only thing I said is that saying it's tougher because there was a lack of MBS, automining, etc. is silly. It was not that big a deal. I have indeed watched (and played) a lot of BW. I didn't say people don't comment on macro - I said they don't go out to watch a match specifically for the excitement of watching macro - and they don't, unless they want info for practicing their own. When you think of the most bad-ass games out there, it's almost always the micro and tactics that are most exciting - and SC2 doesn't detract from that at all.
Watch Game 2 of Flash vs Jaedong in the WCG, that's an exciting game and no SC2 game looks anything like it at all. It's micro, tactics, macro and great spellcasting. Especially in particular spellcasting, literally anyone can do it in SC2. No crazy Jangbi storms anymore, it won't be impressive when every single game has decent spellcasting.
On October 07 2010 02:30 Deadlyfish wrote:
People just need to realise that there is no right or wrong in this debate. BW is not harder than SC2. SC2 is not harder than BW.
Sorry what? It's objectively harder. It's not opinion, it is just a harder game and i got no idea why you'd dispute it. You can enjoy the easier game and some people will enjoy it harder.
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On October 07 2010 04:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
Sorry what? It's objectively harder. It's not opinion, it is just a harder game and i got no idea why you'd dispute it. You can enjoy the easier game and some people will enjoy it harder.
Is the purpose of the game the difficulty of playing it or the difficulty of beating a highly skilled opponent?
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in other news fruitdealer dimaga and idra were considering race changes!
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Sorry what? It's objectively harder. It's not opinion, it is just a harder game and i got no idea why you'd dispute it. You can enjoy the easier game and some people will enjoy it harder.
Its a competitive game. The difficulty level is dependant upon the competition. A game can be "easy" or "difficult" in its own right when you play against the computer, but when the purpose is to beat the other players, then the difficulty is dependant on them.
If you're playing a computer, automining makes the game easier. But if you're playing against another player, they benefit from automining just as much as you do.
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theres micro in sc2, its just not as easy to spot for the spectator as it was in bw.
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I mean, just watch G1 Cool vs LiveForever from GSL semifinals and tell me this game isn't awesome in its own right.
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On October 07 2010 04:27 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 04:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
Sorry what? It's objectively harder. It's not opinion, it is just a harder game and i got no idea why you'd dispute it. You can enjoy the easier game and some people will enjoy it harder. Is the purpose of the game the difficulty of playing it or the difficulty of beating a highly skilled opponent?
Well it's a game there's no 'purpose'. But the difficulty of BW feels fun to me... plenty of games are well known for being a challenge to actually play.
I feel like if there was some added elements in SC2 that would raise the skill cap (while still being accessible for everyone) it would be more entertaining for me to play and watch. I'd like the gap between skill levels to be as high as they were in BW, where a A-team pro was significantly better than a B-teamer, and a B-teamer significantly better than top amateurs. I have a feeling SC2 might be much closer in this regard, now a lot of people will say that's a good thing that more people can compete but personally i am impressed by the sheer skill level of the top players like Jaedong/Flash, its truely amazing what they manage to do. But will anyone in SC2 impress me in the same way? I don't see what they could possibly do ingame that would have me impressed in the same way.
Another thing that may be a problem in my opinion is when the safe builds Nony is talking about are figured out, what will differentiate players from one another? In BW you have players with wildly different styles. People known for their macro, people known for their micro, people known just for specific unit usage. You can tell who is playing in a lot of cases just by watching how they play. In SC2 because of everyone inevitably having perfect macro players are going to be a lot closer, it might be hard for someone to stand out from the crowd.
On October 07 2010 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Sorry what? It's objectively harder. It's not opinion, it is just a harder game and i got no idea why you'd dispute it. You can enjoy the easier game and some people will enjoy it harder. Its a competitive game. The difficulty level is dependant upon the competition. A game can be "easy" or "difficult" in its own right when you play against the computer, but when the purpose is to beat the other players, then the difficulty is dependant on them. If you're playing a computer, automining makes the game easier. But if you're playing against another player, they benefit from automining just as much as you do.
I dunno why we are basically arguing semantics, but BW is harder to play for both players. It is more difficult for both of them than playing SC2 against each other would be.
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I already had great respect for NTT/hasudrone in the early day of scbw. Back in 2000, he was as good as any player in the world; beat Garimto, H.O.T forever, IntoTheRain, etc.
Needless to say, I was shocked when Nazgul beat him 4-0 for the Dutch WCG qualifiers in 2001. He really hated the fact that bw featured replays from patch 1.06 because it revealed his strategies. He quit shortly after.
You gotta respect that at age 28 he got so high up the ladder, but he can't seem to adapt on the long term. Quit bw after reaching the top and now quits sc2 after reaching the foreign top...
In 11 years of watching all kinds of games and styles sc/bw/sc2, no one EVER played like him. He's truely one of a kind and manages to do it at high level. I respect that.
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I love how NTT basically says "people who disagree with me are just noobs". He's one of those kinds of people I guess. I'm sure he's always right about everything and anyone who disagrees with him are just idiots.
Such wisdom.
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On October 07 2010 04:37 infinity2k9 wrote:
Another thing that may be a problem in my opinion is when the safe builds Nony is talking about are figured out, what will differentiate players from one another? In BW you have players with wildly different styles. People known for their macro, people known for their micro, people known just for specific unit usage. You can tell who is playing in a lot of cases just by watching how they play. In SC2 because of everyone inevitably having perfect macro players are going to be a lot closer, it might be hard for someone to stand out from the crowd.
I don't know if those safe builds will ever happen.
Even if the macro skill cap is eventually reached by every top player, I just don't see everything boiling down to every matchup having two safe strategies clashing and looking for tiny cracks. The speed of the units, the far better pathfinding will make micro battles more about defeating your opponent's forces and less about making Dragoons not randomly run backwards into Mengsk statues. Faster flanking, better positioning, more APM available for multi-pronged harassment during battles.
I don't see that ever turning into "safe".
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The question I currently ask my self is whether top players find it hard to be consistent in their winnings because everybody else catches on so quickly to said "gimmicks", because it is generally much harder to play a solid macro game impervious to all kinds of cheese, or because the skill ceiling has effectively lowered dramatically.
Is SC2 in need of a real bonjwa while we keep blaming the hard counters and unbalanced maps for not performing adequately?
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Farewell dear noobs. Enjoy your mbs, your automing, your warp-in, your reactors, your void rays, your stim and your blink. I've had it with the gimmicks and the lack of fundamental RTS gameplay. What a waste of time this has been.
Drama queen out.
+1
well, i leave the game for a similar reason last week... maybe i`ll give a new chance to the game in the next expansion.
I quit like many other players and friends bored to dead with sc2, real shitty game after all.. so sad.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Oh let me add another point as well. One of the reasons BW evolved so much over the years is not because people just happened to discover things. It's because the mechanics were so hard and skill cap was so high things only became possible as player skill grew. People knew defilers would be good for example but until they could actually effectively have the mechanics to use them, they were not common. Even today theres units such as Queens in ZvT, Ghosts in TvP, Dark Archons in PvZ that are known to be useful but just require so much multitasking ability that its really special to even see them used effectively. This isn't true in SC2, everything is accessible to everyone which is why i think it will be figured out a lot faster and might stagnate.
On October 07 2010 04:44 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 04:37 infinity2k9 wrote:
Another thing that may be a problem in my opinion is when the safe builds Nony is talking about are figured out, what will differentiate players from one another? In BW you have players with wildly different styles. People known for their macro, people known for their micro, people known just for specific unit usage. You can tell who is playing in a lot of cases just by watching how they play. In SC2 because of everyone inevitably having perfect macro players are going to be a lot closer, it might be hard for someone to stand out from the crowd. I don't know if those safe builds will ever happen. Even if the macro skill cap is eventually reached by every top player, I just don't see everything boiling down to every matchup having two safe strategies clashing and looking for tiny cracks. The speed of the units, the far better pathfinding will make micro battles more about defeating your opponent's forces and less about making Dragoons not randomly run backwards into Mengsk statues. Faster flanking, better positioning, more APM available for multi-pronged harassment during battles. I don't see that ever turning into "safe".
When was micro battles not about defeating your opponents forces? Infact watch the Game 2 of Flash Vs Jaedong WCG, the whole game is basically constant small micro battles all over the map, not just a blob vs another blob. Multi-pronged harass is basically the only thing anyone comes up with as a use for the spare apm... but people even did that in BW while doing everything else.
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EPT
